Would you spend more money in hard close auctions if there was a "proxy" feature?
PeakRarities
Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yet again, I missed a coin I had planned on bidding on at GC, and it went about $1000 under what I would have paid. This has happened to me about a half a dozen times, where I either get distracted and forget to bid, or fall asleep. I hate bidding early because I don't want to show my hand, but unlike other auction houses, GC has no way to take a "proxy" bid that wouldn't execute until the final moments of the auction.
I mentioned this to Ian in the past, and he totally understood where I was coming from but his rebuttal was that the lack of early bidding might scare the consignors if early bidding was discouraged. Im sure it happens at the other auction houses too, where it’s 1 day prior to the auction and a coin is at 10% of MV, so it’s a valid point that I didn’t consider. Im not sure though, maybe that big picture wise, it would benefit the consignors but im curious if im the only bonehead that this happens to.
My question to you -
If GC had a "proxy" feature, do you think you would bid on more coins?
Comments
Absolutely yes- I could then bid my comfortable max and if I’m busy or forget then I still have a shot at the coin!
My bids for Heritage next Thursday are already in- so now I don’t have to worry about it!
It all depends on what it is, but GC is structured almost identically to eBay in the sense that there is a set end time (no extensions) and the earlier you bid, the more someone can bid you up. Whether I bid by myself or use a sniper, I never bid early on eBay.
Now to your point, I bid on something last week, and it was a really hard to find item. I didn’t want to bid early, just like you, so I set multiple alarms. If I didn’t have to have it, I likely wouldn’t have gone to that effort. Maybe I’d still have been around to bid, but I might not have planned my evening around it. All the more so because it has a limited price history and I bid very strong. Last thing I wanted was to give someone time to bid me up. Even if I still won, it could have cost me a lot more. Bidding last second was the only good option shy of the auction being extended with each bid so I could always have the opportunity to best my competition until one of us bows out.
Thanks Dan. There's many reasons why we don't have a delayed proxy system, even though it would almost be unique in the auction arena for auctions with a hard close. Bidders like different ways - I can ask 100 bidders, and receive ten different ideas on how auctions should end - each which suits the person I am asking. Some people like the HA way of ending one lot after another, others like the GC way with a hard close. Some would like the option to end an auction immediately the second they are interested in it. :-)
We do have a system that will send you a text message 10 minutes before the auction will end - will that help in the case you're forgetting to bid?
You did email me a suggestion to allow only dealers some kind of special feature - that is not something we would ever consider - we built GC for everyone.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Yes. This has happened to me on eBay many times (I don't use an auction sniper), and I am sure it would continue happening if I bought coins from GC instead. My current solution is to have a phone timer counting down to ~5 minutes before the next auction on my watchlist goes off.
Interesting that Ian says it would scare consignors, as that might be the case, but the outcome could be better:
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Thank you @ianrussell !
Just to be clear, not trying to twist your arm or anything. Im genuinely curious if I'm the only bonehead that always forgets about the coins I want to bid on. However, the "hard close" system is a double edged sword because at the same time, I might not win the coins I snipe at the last second if there were a proxy feature, and discouraging people to bid earlier definitely has its drawbacks. IMO It's a thought provoking topic that has many factors to take into consideration.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I'm with @airplanenut , if I need to have it I will make sure it happens. That being said, it's easier for us on the west coast. But like Ian said, everyone's going to like something different and this is how they've been running things so that's just how it goes.
To answer your question, I love GC, it is my favorite auction house, but the only thing that could make me spend more money there is having more coins that I'm interested in.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Oh for sure, GC is a top notch outfit. Perhaps I am just a bonehead, but I do sometimes wonder how it would affect bidding behavior. Last week, I took a substantial loss on several coins I consigned. They ended on a holiday weekend, and I cant help but wonder if someones proxy bid would have been higher than the final hammer that was only about 83% of GS wholesale. That one stung, but like I mentioned, I also won a really nice coin at what I thought was a bargain, so it definitely goes both ways.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
While it's a fact of life, as a collector I really don't appreciate seeing dealers winning a coin at auction and then adding what they consider a "reasonable" markup beyond price guides. Dealers have access to resources collectors don't have.
We do? Can you give me an example?
Just for the record, auctions were historically for dealers only. Collectors didn't enter the race until fairly recently. A dealer who spends hours every week and chooses some examples to stock, using their knowledge they select a few coins they consider to be premium and offer them at what they consider to be a fair value to the collector. I don't really see an issue with that, provided that the markup is reasonable and the dealer can support the ask price.
As far as I know, Numismatics is one of the only industries where the professionals have virtually no upper hand on the collector. APRs, Greysheet, all the tools that we have are available to collectors as well. Ever since collectors started participating heavily in auctions, I cant think of any one area where dealers have an advantage.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
No, If I want something; I go after it hard. I kind of like having a barometer and don’t mind waiting until the end.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
You can always bid what you are willing to pay. If you would have paid more, maybe you should have bid more ahead of time? I don't see any problem with the way it works.
I realize some like sniping, or not showing their hand, but I just bid what I am willing to pay and if no one else snipes that high with a last 5 second bid, I still win.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Thats the point, I just don't want to bid ahead of time. Showing your hand early gives the other bidders more time to contemplate raising their max. If you bid ahead of time and it works for you, more power to you, but in my experience whenever I go "all-in" too early It hasn't worked out well.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
15 minutes with Python will sort that out for you
Heck, if you don’t know how, chatgpt can probably write it for you.
Edited to add: just checked chatgpt: a one sentence description gets you 95% there. I’m guessing with a better crafted question, it will get you all the way there.
Would the text message reminders work too? Let me know if you want instructions on how to set that up in your account? You can define how much warning you would like.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Yes, please. I need as many reminders as I can. Thank you! Honestly, I had no idea that was available until now.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Sundays are GC night. Really the boss auction site for virtually any level of coin.
Get a good Swanson TV dinner warmed up. Shut off the telephone, ignore football and place my bids.
Not playing in the majors anymore, but low four figures are not unusual.
Got no fear of getting wedgied up on an early bid, and the fairly high increments on $1000 plus coins can shift the advantage to the first guy in action
Would not change a thing as a regular bidder or an occasional consignor.
I've been a collector since grade school, back in the day, and even then auctions were the place to go if you were a serious collector. I still have some of those old catalogues. Advertising "Where Dealers Buy" was just a smart promotion for stronger final bid prices. Often I would be bidding against agents as well as dealers. When something sold near or at retail, one knew it was a collector who won.
Oh for sure, the savvy collectors were right there in the room with the dealers. I was just saying that generally, collectors did not participate in auctions nearly as much as they do now.
I've only been a full time dealer for a couple months, so I don't want you to think that I took umbrage to your comment at all. Honestly I just pretend to be a dealer so I can get better prices for the coins in my collection 😂. I agree that when an auction coin shows up in someones inventory immediately after at a 25% markup, it doesn't leave a great taste in my mouth.
Conversely, if its a specialty dealer with extensive experience with the type of coin they're offering, I think it can be a tremendous value to the collector if the coin is only marked up 10% from cost. Especially if it's a coin that is truly PQ for the grade, and its a nice cherry on top if they're able to take better photos than the auction house. Some dealers will even work out layaway terms, which can be a lifesaver if its a pricey coin that the collector needs, but doesn't have the immediate liquidity to pay in full.
As i said though, I do feel that coin dealing is one of the very few professions with no advantages for the dealer over the collector. Only realtors can access the MLS, only brokers can access certain mutual funds and securities, only contractors can buy from supply wearhouses....I could go on and on. As far as I know, there's no significant resource or tool that only dealers have access too. The playing field is extremely level, but that's not a bad thing at all. From a collector point of view, the amount of transparency in the industry enables me to feel more comfortable spending large amounts of money on coins. If i didn't have access to auction records, pricing guides and what not, I would probably have difficulty rationalizing my purchases.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I always bid early bc we have activities in the SH household on Sunday evenings. So I bid what I will pay for the coin in advance. Showing my hand? Well yes, if someone wants to bid more, go for it, no worries and the power to them. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. So no, don’t need a proxy although others might……………
Best, SH
Would you spend more money on GC if there was a "proxy" feature?
Absolutely. Right now, I am getting some work done while I wait for a GC countdown.
Next weekend, I will be unavailable, so I won't be bidding on anything.
My World Coin Type Set
No, I've missed several auctions by forgetting to bid or set alarms as well.
I would use Proxy, everytime.
Not to hijack your thread Dan, but is there a Live countdown option on GC? Am I doing things wrong or do you have to refresh to see when it's close to the end? I missed 2 coins tonight because of my own habit of wanting to snipe at the last 4-5 seconds. It also didn't help that the coins I was bidding on, were within a few seconds of ending from each other.
I at least won 1 of the 4 I had my eyes on but would have ponied up if my refresh didn't freeze on 2 others.
I actually agree with this Dan. Although many dealers have given me a sour taste, you’re beyond fair and that’s most likely because you’re a collector at heart. I’m very surprised I can peruse eBay auctions and watch coins and paper money sell for “a lot” over HA prices. Although eBay’s engine and save feature are superior and the reason “I keep going back”, it’s often quite silly when I can go and buy whatever I want on HA for substantially less. There are many times I’ve wondered the need for full time dealers outside if it just being a hobby.
Now I can’t say I’m super empathetic towards dealers because as a “collector only” I don’t feel obligated to “let them make theirs” when I have access to the same resources, same Google articles, same coin books etc.
Recently at a show I was offered $250 for a gold CAC Morgan from a dealer. The coin easily sells for $1500 with one listed on eBay for $2500. I don’t get the logic that a collector needs to “understand” dealers “have to make their money” and when a collector goes to sell a collection unfortunately it only brings 60% of bid or comps or whatever and all of a sudden the collector is just “emotional”.
Anyway a bit of an unintended rant, I’m done now. Low barriers to entry these days for coin dealers.
Same. Definitely needs to be revised.
To help ease the worries of consignors,
the count of sealed bids could be visible (just not the actual bid amounts).
The sealed bids might be sent in fairly quickly, if the tie break rule is to use the person who sent the bid earliest.
As others have noted, the helpful thing is that the bidders have the incentive to bid their true max,
as long as the end price is the second highest price (or one increment above the second highest price).
This assumes the bidders trust the auction administrators to not reveal their true max, which I believe to be true here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction
Consider the consignor. He is of substantially higher value to the auction house than the bidder, as msot coins will find their market.
With most of the action coming in late, the seller is left to bite his nails all evening hoping for the snipes to come in. Perhaps the bidder doesn't care, but that pushes many sellers to opt for high reserves and fixed price options.
I was watching 4 coins tonight on GC, I just set my I-phone timer for each one of them.
Got 3 out of 4 but I was able to bid on them and still do some work around here
I'm busy doing other things around my house and I do lose track of time
As far as the question about proxy bidding, I don't use it in auctions that have it, I just wait till the lot openes and bid then
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Very true, and I hadn't considered this until Ian brought it up. To begin with, many collectors can be a handful to deal with when their money is on the line, and I can only imagine how much time the AH employees spend holding their hand when the bids arent coming in. Last week, that 1873-s $10 I was watching (which sold for 32k in 2022) was at a measely $1,200 or $1300 a day before the auction.It's likely that the consignor went through a period of anxiety wondering if he was about to lose his arse. Sure enough the bids started flowing in a couple hours before the auction, but they still took a bath anyway. Looking at the big picture as a consignor, however, I just want the highest price possible so I dont mind sweating it out if it means the payoff will be better.
To my other point above, auctions are inherently risky. They have tremendous upside potential, but without a reserve or high start starting bid, theres also tremndous downside. If someone is very risk averse, I think they should consider an alternative sale format. They may not get the price they wanted, but the outcome is in their control and theyll get paid quickly without any hassle or nail biting.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I line up items bid on then get there as countdown gets low to bid in final seconds. Then win.
GreatCollections wasn't set up for dealers, it was setup for everyone. I think that's one of the reasons I like it so much, and I'm guessing it's one of the reasons bidders and consigners alike have made the platform very successful.
It's a new, arguably better, world. I don't see too many dealers failing to buy food.
I'm personally a big fan of the Proxy bid feature at Stacks, HA, etc. It's the only way I bid, if available. I'd love it for GC, but understand the reasoning not to have it.
No.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Funny, I won 3 of 4, were we bidding the same coins.................doesn't matter
BUT
if you have coins that go off seconds of each other just open another window, then you can have one set to bid while the other one closes.
Now, I didn't tell you this to be able to beat me
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Youre correct, but I wasn't saying that it was. I was making a generalization about coin auctions in general, and the fact of the matter is that historically, auction participation was predominantly dealers. Someone else can correct the time frame, but i think it was around the time GC was founded 2010-ish when collector participation was on a strong upward trajectory.
"It's a new, arguably better, world."
I don't know if i'd even say "arguably", I think its definitely better. The online auction world enabled many collectors to participate more in the hobby, and the pricing transparency and availability of data makes it easier to navigate.
"I don't see too many dealers failing to buy food."
Neither do I, but even if they were I dont think we would see it. All I was saying is that dealers don't really have any tools or resources that collectors don't have, for better or owrse. It just means that If a dealer wants to succeed, they have to know what theyre doing and conduct their business well. I'm operating at a loss this year, but that much was expected.
I just realized I took a monster loss on my coins sold at GC tonight, but several of those were bought with my collector hat on, and the market for better date gold and common date $3 is not too hot right now...
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Gold CAC coins arent easily quantified in the price guides, so you need a dealer who knows the market well. It sounds like you've had some bad experiences, and there's a lot of bad actors in the hobby who will try to take advantage. It is true that collectors should understand that dealers need to make a living when using their services, but all I'm saying is that they understand that a dealer cant pay them always what the coin sells at auction for, or what they paid for it. Many times, 10-15% back of that is fine, but 60% of bid or comps is ridiculous unless its a really cheap coin.
The barrier to entry is very very low, but what you're seeing is a surge of "dealers" who came in during covid when you could buy anything at bid and sell it easily for bid +10-20% on ebay facebook or Instagram. Those days are long gone, and in a softer market only the strong will survive....
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Try having multiple pages open at once.
Too bad auction sniper programs that work on eBay don’t work on GC. I’d then use them all the time.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
If people feel that sniping benefits them as buyers, it must absolutely not benefit them as sellers. You can't buy save money by sniping and have higher end bids by sniping.
I sold some coins last week for a profit, am I a dealer now? What if I subscribe to the Greysheet. Or do I need a website. Maybe I just proclaim myself to be a dealer and that’s it.
Any dealer who needs to buy at auction and mark it up to a collector base as a primary means of sourcing inventory isn’t adding any value. In the past the friction was much greater…printed catalogs with monochrome plates or no plates at all.
I’m disappointed that such a suggestion was made.
Latin American Collection
My 2c worth (with the vig, 2.2c)
The timed auction feature at GC, and the sales always being on Sunday, make it SO much easier if I’m just interested in one or two lots.
I know exactly when to show up and bid, usually five minutes or so before deadline.
Plus, the proxy-less GC system means bidders are closer to ‘showing their hand’ on Sunday afternoon, sometimes saving me the bother if an item is already over my limit.
And I didn’t even know about the GC text feature!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
They are adding value to their clients as it saves them the time of hunting things down.
I cant help but wonder if someones proxy bid would have been higher than the final hammer that was only about 83% of GS wholesale. That one stung, but like I mentioned, I also won a really nice coin at what I thought was a bargain, so it definitely goes both ways
Isn't that the point? You can't have it both ways.
A dealer who spends hours every week and chooses some examples to stock, using their knowledge they select a few coins they consider to be premium and offer them at what they consider to be a fair value to the collector. I don't really see an issue with that, provided that the markup is reasonable and the dealer can support the ask price.
Serious collectors spend time deciding how to best deploy their funds, no differently than do dealers. Nothing justifies giving the dealer an advantage over collectors at an auction. if that were the case, it really wouldn't be an auction, would it?
As far as I know, Numismatics is one of the only industries where the professionals have virtually no upper hand on the collector.
And that's a bad thing? In other words, a free market isn't what you would want as a dealer in numismatics. Dealers shouldn't expect to be awarded free money at collectors' expense, simply because they deal in coins. Collectors are frequently told not to expect that their coins will be sold with a gain, and dealers shouldn't expect any differently.
If dealers are truly good at what they do, their stock will be highly-sought and bought. If a dealer is selling at auction, it means that the coin didn't sell through other channels, and collectors shouldn't be penalized for a dealer's misfortune because of swings in the market or lack of demand for the coins he is selling.
You can always bid what you are willing to pay. If you would have paid more, maybe you should have bid more ahead of time? I don't see any problem with the way it works.
I realize some like sniping, or not showing their hand, but I just bid what I am willing to pay and if no one else snipes that high with a last 5 second bid, I still win.
+100%
I knew it would happen.
I have used the proxy feature at Heritage now and then. It doesn't make much difference. I usually come in second. I run into the bidder who would have put up a "buy bid" in the 1930s and '40s. Those bidders will pay whatever it takes to win in this market. They won't stop.
As it was in 1979 and '80, the best thing to do is lay low in this market. It's not as bad as it was back then, but it's not much fun for buyers and great fun for sellers. Things will calm down, and there could be a big crash, like there was in 1981.
The proxy only makes a difference because the highest bid on the book as opposed to the proxy will be revealed before the auction. I don't know that it really matters.
As a buyer, I prefer GC not having a last minute proxy bidding system. I do not like the ebay proxy/sniping bidding system. I spend the same amount of funds whether there is a proxy bidding system or not since I stick to a budget.
So it wasn't Labor Day that was the problem. Certain areas of the market are tanking. Seeing softness in silver coins as well.
You could just bid now for next weekend
Since there is a fixed close, I suspect a sniping program could be written like those used on eBay.
What do you mean by 'proxy' feature?
What is preventing you from entering your maximum bid a week before Sunday close?
Not sure about other "collectors" but I've been building my collection primarily through auctions for the last 50 years participating by mail and in person in auctions (especially in the mid 1970s through late 1980s) conducted by several companies including Stack's, Coin Galleries, Kagins, RARCOA, Superior, Steve Ivy (Heritage), Harmer Rooke, Bowers & Ruddy Merena etc., Joseph Lepczyk, Paramount, Goldbergs, and others I can't think of at the moment. I'm sure I'm not the only collector that has done this.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Whenever I miss out on an auction I had some interest in, this only reminds me I must not have wanted it bad enough. I go through a lot of anguish over what I already have in my collection from memory, whether I really want to buy and have a look, knowing there might be a trip to the PO to return it if it turns out I didn't like. But there must have been something about the coin that dampened my interest and so it quietly passed on by, I guess.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Upon further reading.....
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection