@jmlanzaf said:
That assumes everyone is sniping. You can't win a $500 snipe if I entered a $600 bid 5 days ago.
Most bidders are heel-biters. They think they know their maximum bid, but as soon as someone bids higher, their perception of value goes up. I guarantee if you bid $600 five days in advance, someone else will become absolutely convinced it is worth $601. That's why sniping is so important.
@scubafuel is right for the professional set; they will figure out how to build an app for that.
For the amateur collector, it is easy to set an alarm for one minute ahead of the hard close, but that will result in missed bids once in a while. Hence lower average prices.
@SIowhand said:
15 minutes with Python will sort that out for you
Heck, if you don’t know how, chatgpt can probably write it for you.
Edited to add: just checked ChatGPT: a one sentence description gets you 95% there. I’m guessing with a better crafted question, it will get you all the way there.
This is one of the funniest things, no one even gave your comment any consideration, but I bet that most don't realize that there's several tech savvy numismatists out there that are already "sniping" on GC. I guess it cant be that big of a "disadvantage" if we don't notice it right? lol
The smart guys fly under the radar and just build it themselves, only the dumb ones like me try to talk about it instead
It’s important to realize this is the only reply that matters in this thread.
The ability to execute a proper sealed bid will not be available to dealers, or to collectors. It is available to those that can control magic, and to those willing to do the work to learn. And I think there is justice in that.
I meant to reply to that comment. I'm guessing that unless Ian is granting access to bidding bots, his Cloudflare service currently blocks any and all automated attempts at data scraping (and entering bids) on his site.
You say that a dealer who buys a coin at auction "Isn't adding any value", but that's a very myopic viewpoint, and it doesn't make sense. That would mean that every coin that sells at auction always sells for its full value, and we know that not to be true. Coins slip through the cracks, people forget to bid, theres a multitude of reasons why a coin may not achieve its true FMV, and a good dealer is able to recognize and select coins that could be resold for 10% higher while still being a fair price. Using your logic, does that mean car dealers cant add value to cars they win in auction? How about art dealers, do they add value to the paintings, or do they just know that the market value of the painting X and they were able to pay .9x?
I have, at times painfully, read through this whole thread. I am, at best, a bit player, I primarily buy coins in the 4 figures arena, so I'm still playing in the farm league compared to many here. I never see myself becoming a dealer.
I would hate to see proxy bids on GC. My belief is the coins, all coins, on GC sell for FMV. I am not going to speak for GC, but I think that is sort of their point with the current system, the active early bidders combined with those that come in at the last second all matter equally. I wouldn't bid on auctions if I knew that dealers, or collectors, were just going to have all their snipes scheduled, which to me nullifies having an "auction". Imagine a Mecum auction for a collector car, and they spend the time running through all of the on hand bidders escalating the price to a point that the value has been maximized, and then they open three sealed envelopes between going twice and gone, and one of those values is hammered as the winner. Sort of defeats the whole point of an auction to sell at FMV. How far would one take MMV instead of FMV? Do you contact everyone that has looked at the coin and offer a proxy opportunity? Do you contact everyone that has purchased similar coins in the past and offer them a proxy opportunity? As a dealer I wouldn't think you would want MMV vs. FMV. There is no markup to MMV.
Are there variables to FMV, absolutely, time, spot, market trends, visibility, nuance, and just as you learned when you lost $8500 by not considering some variables, those variables can be just as detrimental as they can be positive. When I was actively selling a Marklin Z scale collection on eBay, I learned the best times to schedule my auctions to end, to maximize my proceeds. I increased the FMV I sold at by manipulating a variable I could control. I enjoy bidding on GC auctions though, and proxies would largely kill that. i have no doubt that there are those doing back door proxies now, and if that continues, I would hope that eventually GC would do something about it, as it is a detractor for me.
As a collector why wouldn't I want to use exactly your logic for myself, i.e. buying a coin that I recognize could be sold for 10% higher if everyone and their brother got a proxy, but due to whatever circumstances, I am able to purchase at a fair price, instead of a maximum price. I don't want to have to bid the maximum if I can win it at a fair price. I can do that now on GC, I'd hate to lose that, it would certainly make this hobby less appealing if I had to wait for all of the secret envelopes to be opened before I knew if I had won a coin on GC.
Since Ian has commented on this thread, I will offer the single biggest critique I have of GC and the single largest recommendation I have.
The photo quality is too poor for me to determine how the coin will look in hand to bid and I do believe my coin sales have suffered on GC because the coin photos are not as attractive or true to life that could bring higher bids.
That is my opinion as someone who has consigned with Great Collections over the years. Otherwise, I believe GC to have the most potential as an auction house relative to the majority of the collector base.
Since Ian has commented on this thread, I will offer the single biggest critique I have of GC and the single largest recommendation I have.
The photo quality is too poor for me to determine how the coin will look in hand to bid and I do believe my coin sales have suffered on GC because the coin photos are not as attractive or true to life that could bring higher bids.
That is my opinion as someone who has consigned with Great Collections over the years. Otherwise, I believe GC to have the most potential as an auction house relative to the majority of the collector base.
Hasn't photo quality been improved by the addition of Phil and GreatPhotos? The quality of his photos made my last purchase much easier.
@ARCO said:
Since Ian has commented on this thread, I will offer the single biggest critique I have of GC and the single largest recommendation I have.
The photo quality is too poor for me to determine how the coin will look in hand to bid and I do believe my coin sales have suffered on GC because the coin photos are not as attractive or true to life that could bring higher bids.
That is my opinion as someone who has consigned with Great Collections over the years. Otherwise, I believe GC to have the most potential as an auction house relative to the majority of the collector base.
This comment is outdated. When did you last consign?
…………….. When I was actively selling a Marklin Z scale collection….
I LOVE my Z scale Marklin trains. Had them since I was stationed in Germany in the early 80’s and put them out every Christmas. I love to put the locomotives next to a dime or quarter to let people see just how small they are! Such a fun hobby to go with my coin collecting! 😉
Thank you for your well thought out reply. First though, lets regroup and re-center the didscussion. Forget about GC and focus on the concepts and the psychology, I just changed the title of that thread for that reason. Now lets highlight some of foundational bullet points upon which we can all agree-
There are two primary auction formats, soft close and hard close.
Both formats allow you to execute a regular bid at any time.
Both formats have options to hide your bid until the final moments. "Proxies" for soft close, "sniping" for hard close.
The main difference between a snipe and a proxy is that one extends the auction, and the other requires live participation. "Live sniping" needs no explanation.
The accessibility for "sealed sniping" is variable, and may need to be orchestrated through a 3rd party software- For example, using "gixen" on ebay.
Now with those things laid out, I have a couple questions (not just directed you, but for anyone with similar views)
"I would hate to see proxy bids on GC. My belief is the coins, all coins, on GC sell for FMV.
Im going to assume you're mainly a buyer, you can tell me if thats wrong. Im curious how we are defining "FMV" though? In any auction, If a coin you didnt notice sells for $900. You would have paid $1000. Which figure is the FMV?
"I wouldn't bid on auctions if I knew that dealers, or collectors, were just going to have all their snipes scheduled, which to me nullifies having an "auction". Imagine a Mecum auction for a collector car, and they spend the time running through all of the on hand bidders escalating the price to a point that the value has been maximized, and then they open three sealed envelopes between going twice and gone, and one of those values is hammered as the winner."
So can I reasonably assume you don't buy coins at Heritage or Stacks, since that basically how it's set up? It doesn't matter what the bidding activity was prior to the lot going live, there may be a phone or internet bid that was placed weeks ago that wont execute until the lot is. The scenario you describe is not outlandish whatsoever, thats how many auctions work and its happened to me at several times.
"Sort of defeats the whole point of an auction to sell at FMV. How far would one take MMV instead of FMV? Do you contact everyone that has looked at the coin and offer a proxy opportunity? Do you contact everyone that has purchased similar coins in the past and offer them a proxy opportunity?"
You lost me here. The options to conceal your bid are more accessible at some auctions than they are at others, but I don't know how to differentiate between FMV and "MMV". The IRS defines FMV as the following:
IRS Regulation Section 1.170A-1(c)(2) defines Fair Market Value (FMV) as “the price at which property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.”
So that brings me back to the my first question...900 vs 1000
"As a dealer I wouldn't think you would want MMV vs. FMV. There is no markup to MMV."
As an consignor, I want the buyer to most amount of money possible. As a buyer, I want to pay the least amount of money possible. Collector or dealer, I think we all can agree on that logic, its human nature to want what's best for ourselves.
"Are there variables to FMV, absolutely, time, spot, market trends, visibility, nuance, and just as you learned when you lost $8500 by not considering some variables, those variables can be just as detrimental as they can be positive. When I was actively selling a Marklin Z scale collection on eBay, I learned the best times to schedule my auctions to end, to maximize my proceeds. I increased the FMV I sold at by manipulating a variable I could control. I enjoy bidding on GC auctions though, and proxies would largely kill that. i have no doubt that there are those doing back door proxies now, and if that continues, I would hope that eventually GC would do something about it, as it is a detractor for me."
GC doesn't enable it, and it may be in the terms and conditions that it's against the rules to do so. At the same time, what would they be able to do about it if someone coded a way to snipe, and how would you be able to tell whos doing it?
"As a collector why wouldn't I want to use exactly your logic for myself, i.e. buying a coin that I recognize could be sold for 10% higher if everyone and their brother got a proxy, but due to whatever circumstances, I am able to purchase at a fair price, instead of a maximum price. **I don't want to have to bid the maximum if I can win it at a fair price. I can do that now on GC, I'd hate to lose that, it would certainly make this hobby less appealing if I had to wait for all of the secret envelopes to be opened before I knew if I had won a coin on GC.
Like I said, I have to assume that GC is the only auction house where you buy anything. What I want you to consider, is if the roles were reversed and it was your coins in the auction, would you still be in favor of bidders not having to pay the maximum?
Thank you for your well thought out reply. First though, lets regroup and re-center the didscussion. Forget about GC and focus on the concepts and the psychology, I just changed the title of that thread for that reason. Now lets highlight some of foundational bullet points upon which we can all agree-
There are two primary auction formats, soft close and hard close.
Both formats allow you to execute a regular bid at any time.
Both formats have options to hide your bid until the final moments. "Proxies" for soft close, "sniping" for hard close.
The main difference between a snipe and a proxy is that one extends the auction, and the other requires live participation. "Live sniping" needs no explanation.
The accessibility for "sealed sniping" is variable, and may need to be orchestrated through a 3rd party software- For example, using "gixen" on ebay.
Now with those things laid out, I have a couple questions (not just directed you, but for anyone with similar views)
"I would hate to see proxy bids on GC. My belief is the coins, all coins, on GC sell for FMV.
Im going to assume you're mainly a buyer, you can tell me if thats wrong. Im curious how we are defining "FMV" though? In any auction, If a coin you didnt notice sells for $900. You would have paid $1000. Which figure is the FMV?
"I wouldn't bid on auctions if I knew that dealers, or collectors, were just going to have all their snipes scheduled, which to me nullifies having an "auction". Imagine a Mecum auction for a collector car, and they spend the time running through all of the on hand bidders escalating the price to a point that the value has been maximized, and then they open three sealed envelopes between going twice and gone, and one of those values is hammered as the winner."
So can I reasonably assume you don't buy coins at Heritage or Stacks, since that basically how it's set up? It doesn't matter what the bidding activity was prior to the lot going live, there may be a phone or internet bid that was placed weeks ago that wont execute until the lot is. The scenario you describe is not outlandish whatsoever, thats how many auctions work and its happened to me at several times.
"Sort of defeats the whole point of an auction to sell at FMV. How far would one take MMV instead of FMV? Do you contact everyone that has looked at the coin and offer a proxy opportunity? Do you contact everyone that has purchased similar coins in the past and offer them a proxy opportunity?"
You lost me here. The options to conceal your bid are more accessible at some auctions than they are at others, but I don't know how to differentiate between FMV and "MMV". The IRS defines FMV as the following:
IRS Regulation Section 1.170A-1(c)(2) defines Fair Market Value (FMV) as “the price at which property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.”
So that brings me back to the my first question...900 vs 1000
"As a dealer I wouldn't think you would want MMV vs. FMV. There is no markup to MMV."
As an consignor, I want the buyer to most amount of money possible. As a buyer, I want to pay the least amount of money possible. Collector or dealer, I think we all can agree on that logic, its human nature to want what's best for ourselves.
"Are there variables to FMV, absolutely, time, spot, market trends, visibility, nuance, and just as you learned when you lost $8500 by not considering some variables, those variables can be just as detrimental as they can be positive. When I was actively selling a Marklin Z scale collection on eBay, I learned the best times to schedule my auctions to end, to maximize my proceeds. I increased the FMV I sold at by manipulating a variable I could control. I enjoy bidding on GC auctions though, and proxies would largely kill that. i have no doubt that there are those doing back door proxies now, and if that continues, I would hope that eventually GC would do something about it, as it is a detractor for me."
GC doesn't enable it, and it may be in the terms and conditions that it's against the rules to do so. At the same time, what would they be able to do about it if someone coded a way to snipe, and how would you be able to tell whos doing it?
"As a collector why wouldn't I want to use exactly your logic for myself, i.e. buying a coin that I recognize could be sold for 10% higher if everyone and their brother got a proxy, but due to whatever circumstances, I am able to purchase at a fair price, instead of a maximum price. **I don't want to have to bid the maximum if I can win it at a fair price. I can do that now on GC, I'd hate to lose that, it would certainly make this hobby less appealing if I had to wait for all of the secret envelopes to be opened before I knew if I had won a coin on GC.
Like I said, I have to assume that GC is the only auction house where you buy anything. What I want you to consider, is if the roles were reversed and it was your coins in the auction, would you still be in favor of bidders not having to pay the maximum?
This is largely very well argued. I would make two small comments: there are no secret envelopes in either format. The closest thing to a secret envelope is actually on GC not in a soft close. In a soft close, anyone can come back in and bid.
I also think that the GC format is LEAST LIKELY to yield mastery value. Hard closes can be a game to sneak in at the end. In a soft close, the only way to win is to exhaust all other bidders who always have the opportunity to reenter the bidding.
I am always amazed that people somehow think that GC is beneficial for both the buyer and the seller. That simply can't be true other than the BP/SP in certain price ranges for some consignors.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. First though, lets regroup and re-center the didscussion. Forget about GC and focus on the concepts and the psychology, I just changed the title of that thread for that reason. Now lets highlight some of foundational bullet points upon which we can all agree-
There are two primary auction formats, soft close and hard close.
Both formats allow you to execute a regular bid at any time.
Both formats have options to hide your bid until the final moments. "Proxies" for soft close, "sniping" for hard close.
The main difference between a snipe and a proxy is that one extends the auction, and the other requires live participation. "Live sniping" needs no explanation.
The accessibility for "sealed sniping" is variable, and may need to be orchestrated through a 3rd party software- For example, using "gixen" on ebay.
Now with those things laid out, I have a couple questions (not just directed you, but for anyone with similar views)
"I would hate to see proxy bids on GC. My belief is the coins, all coins, on GC sell for FMV.
Im going to assume you're mainly a buyer, you can tell me if thats wrong. Im curious how we are defining "FMV" though? In any auction, If a coin you didnt notice sells for $900. You would have paid $1000. Which figure is the FMV?
"I wouldn't bid on auctions if I knew that dealers, or collectors, were just going to have all their snipes scheduled, which to me nullifies having an "auction". Imagine a Mecum auction for a collector car, and they spend the time running through all of the on hand bidders escalating the price to a point that the value has been maximized, and then they open three sealed envelopes between going twice and gone, and one of those values is hammered as the winner."
So can I reasonably assume you don't buy coins at Heritage or Stacks, since that basically how it's set up? It doesn't matter what the bidding activity was prior to the lot going live, there may be a phone or internet bid that was placed weeks ago that wont execute until the lot is. The scenario you describe is not outlandish whatsoever, thats how many auctions work and its happened to me at several times.
"Sort of defeats the whole point of an auction to sell at FMV. How far would one take MMV instead of FMV? Do you contact everyone that has looked at the coin and offer a proxy opportunity? Do you contact everyone that has purchased similar coins in the past and offer them a proxy opportunity?"
You lost me here. The options to conceal your bid are more accessible at some auctions than they are at others, but I don't know how to differentiate between FMV and "MMV". The IRS defines FMV as the following:
IRS Regulation Section 1.170A-1(c)(2) defines Fair Market Value (FMV) as “the price at which property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.”
So that brings me back to the my first question...900 vs 1000
"As a dealer I wouldn't think you would want MMV vs. FMV. There is no markup to MMV."
As an consignor, I want the buyer to most amount of money possible. As a buyer, I want to pay the least amount of money possible. Collector or dealer, I think we all can agree on that logic, its human nature to want what's best for ourselves.
"Are there variables to FMV, absolutely, time, spot, market trends, visibility, nuance, and just as you learned when you lost $8500 by not considering some variables, those variables can be just as detrimental as they can be positive. When I was actively selling a Marklin Z scale collection on eBay, I learned the best times to schedule my auctions to end, to maximize my proceeds. I increased the FMV I sold at by manipulating a variable I could control. I enjoy bidding on GC auctions though, and proxies would largely kill that. i have no doubt that there are those doing back door proxies now, and if that continues, I would hope that eventually GC would do something about it, as it is a detractor for me."
GC doesn't enable it, and it may be in the terms and conditions that it's against the rules to do so. At the same time, what would they be able to do about it if someone coded a way to snipe, and how would you be able to tell whos doing it?
"As a collector why wouldn't I want to use exactly your logic for myself, i.e. buying a coin that I recognize could be sold for 10% higher if everyone and their brother got a proxy, but due to whatever circumstances, I am able to purchase at a fair price, instead of a maximum price. **I don't want to have to bid the maximum if I can win it at a fair price. I can do that now on GC, I'd hate to lose that, it would certainly make this hobby less appealing if I had to wait for all of the secret envelopes to be opened before I knew if I had won a coin on GC.
Like I said, I have to assume that GC is the only auction house where you buy anything. What I want you to consider, is if the roles were reversed and it was your coins in the auction, would you still be in favor of bidders not having to pay the maximum?
This is largely very well argued. I would make two small comments: there are no secret envelopes in either format. The closest thing to a secret envelope is actually on GC not in a soft close. In a soft close, anyone can come back in and bid.
I also think that the GC format is LEAST LIKELY to yield mastery value. Hard closes can be a game to sneak in at the end. In a soft close, the only way to win is to exhaust all other bidders who always have the opportunity to reenter the bidding.
I am always amazed that people somehow think that GC is beneficial for both the buyer and the seller. That simply can't be true other than the BP/SP in certain price ranges for some consignors.
Yep. There are advantages and disadvantages to each format and feature. Hard closes favor buyers. Soft closes favor sellers.
Just like I always question when I see bullion dealers who claim to offer the best buy prices and also the lowest sale prices. Now of course some businesses may be able to operate on reduced margins, but I always question whether the shop that pays the most for its inventory can really also sell at the lowest prices also.
GC - I will line up bid candidates to bid on (making notes about bid, MV, etc.) then bid in final seconds, it’s been a very successful strategy. It takes some planning be in the operational area at the right time. If some rich player has put in nuke bids then move on to something else. I am there to procure inventory can sell at decent profit. Sometimes w luck competition won’t be there. I also monitor candidates from watchlist leading up to auc close. Sometimes a test lowball bid put in way before close see if anybody there to jump / like a sub sending out pings. What I don’t want is a bid war with some rich collector. As a hobbyist of strategy, war games I have the right skill set to get some good buys there. Really enjoyable, lucrative. Love beating them to the punch. If you do your homework, have a good strategy, success can be there.
Do consigners have the option to have their coins GreatPhotoed, if so..at what cost? Personally, I really need to see the coin before bidding. Those who pass on GreatPhoto, maybe the coin is not all that great.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
There is one caveat and that gets into higher priced coins where there is advantage to bidding early. Once you get to the higher bid increments (like $1k, typically $1200 w/BP), I think it helps to be early knowing that it will take a determined buyer to want to outbid you by $1200.
@leothelyon said:
Do consigners have the option to have their coins GreatPhotoed, if so..at what cost? Personally, I really need to see the coin before bidding. Those who pass on GreatPhoto, maybe the coin is not all that great.
Leo
>
No, not necessarily. A while back I purchased a coin on GC that didn’t have a GreatPhoto. For some reason I can only assume the consignor decided against photographing it. Luckily for him, I knew the coin, bid and won it anyway. It was a little scruffy AU50, but for the issue an excellent example.
>
Fortunately, after I won it I ask GC if Phil could do a GreatPhoto, which they agreed to and that pic is now part of the ‘sale page’ just like if it was there, prior to the actual sale. Thanks Ian!
>
In reference to this massive thread, for me a proxy bid system would cause no problem. As Dan said, one where the proxy bid actually came in a few minutes before auction closing wouldn’t cause me any grief.
>
As to whether I would use a proxy, probably not. I feel more in control sniping. At the end, I may decide to bid more than I originally set as a maximum amount. This is not because I’ve gotten carried way but rather I might just reevaluate how nice or rare the coin actually is, compared to my first estimate.
>
The one thing I don’t do is bid early (non-proxy). This strategy just always makes me think I bidding against myself!😉
>
Just my .02 cents.
@PeakRarities as I am now on my phone I’ll not quote and reply as that gets messy. I’ll try to answer your core question that was directed largely at me, and confirm some assumptions.
Yes, I am a buyer, yes, I have bought on GC and on eBay, and I primarily buy at a few lcs. I don’t buy on the other sites you mentioned, nor am I well informed in their policies. I have purchased several collector cars at auction, so my baseline for auction expectations does indeed seem to not align with what yours are, or other coin auction sites. Again, I am ignorant regarding other coin auction site terms, but it sounds like I would not be happy using them from what you said.
As to the $900 vs. $1,000; the FMV, what the coin sold for, is $900. You would have paid $1,000, who is to say someone else somewhere wouldn’t have paid $1,150? So to me that is the Maximized market value, I should have been more clear. Maximized market value is hard to determine as it isn’t what the coin changed hands for. If there is no sale, then there is no FMV established, that’s my belief. For instance I am restoring one of my first mountain bikes, a mid 90’s Cannondale F3000. I have nearly all of the original parts, except for a CODA900 rear hub. It’s not an esoteric part like the majic motorcycle cranks, it’s actually a fairly pedestrian hub. They sell for $125 on the market when they rarely pop up. That’s the FMV. I’d pay more for one, I’m an outlier, I’m a MMV buyer for that part. You can, and may very well, disagree with my logic, but it’s what I apply when buying at auction.
Maybe the “problem” is I don’t carry the baggage of antiquated auction policies into the equation, for better or worse. Maybe that’s why Great Collections came to be, an alternative to the entrenched “rules” of coin purchasing. But now I’m over the line and into making assumptions.
One last point, in this day of digital breadcrumbs, any site could largely neuter a snipe processor, they’d just have to want to.
@leothelyon said:
Do consigners have the option to have their coins GreatPhotoed, if so..at what cost? Personally, I really need to see the coin before bidding. Those who pass on GreatPhoto, maybe the coin is not all that great.
Leo
It is my understanding that GC decides which ones to GreatPhoto, not really random but those with nice qualities. I could be wrong and Ian would know if he returns to this thread.
@leothelyon said:
Do consigners have the option to have their coins GreatPhotoed, if so..at what cost? Personally, I really need to see the coin before bidding. Those who pass on GreatPhoto, maybe the coin is not all that great.
Leo
It is my understanding that GC decides which ones to GreatPhoto, not really random but those with nice qualities. I could be wrong and Ian would know if he returns to this thread.
If you specifically ask for a reasonable value coin to have a GreatPhoto it is more than likely they'll do it. They did for me a couple times on ~$1000 coins. I just put a note on the consignment form.
@leothelyon said:
Do consigners have the option to have their coins GreatPhotoed, if so..at what cost? Personally, I really need to see the coin before bidding. Those who pass on GreatPhoto, maybe the coin is not all that great.
It may have changed but I believe word from Ian is that GC decides which coins to GP. I haven't noticed too much rhyme or reason as some really low priced coins have them and sometimes higher priced coins do not. When I was interested in one i particular which I thought may be a particular VAM, I requested a GP and GC posted one (of course there was plenty of time left before the auction end date). I'm sure a consignor could requested GPs and GC is pretty accommodating, but I'm not sure a consignor can request them not to GP.
@Extremeengineer said: "I would hate to see proxy bids on GC. My belief is the coins, all coins, on GC sell for FMV.
I disagree that an auction establishes fair market value. Auctions are generally liquidation mechanisms... places sellers use to get rid of stuff and places buyers go to get deals. A retail shop is FMV. This is generally true but there are exceptions for ultra rare and 1 of a kind items where really the only place to establish market value is an auction, such as if you wanted to sell the Mona Lisa. If you're talking about a fairly easy to obtain AU58 1937-D 3 Legged buffalo nickel, FMV is what the LCS sells it for, but you can almost always get it at an auction for less.
For proper retail pricing - Auctions are not FMV LOL - they are liquidations, a wholesale parameter that the dealer is going to markup accordingly. Like CDN Bid x markup factor. For fmv you should consult CDN CPG or PCGS Coin Facts. Many auc wins I simply markup cost plus / refer to CPG. Material that is PQ may be marked up even higher than CPG in developing proper, accurate retail pricing. This is set by the dealer in developing a consistent approach keep the biz on an even keel with the overall financial model of the business.
Dealer A wins a coin at auction for $100. Using his markup matrix his markup is 35 pct ——- $100 x 1.35 = $135 sell. This is a fair retail pricing for material at that level and in his business plan parameters.
Ricky uses 1.40 and Frankie 1.50 / I have a sweet tooth he says (guffaw).
@ProofCollection - Would you mind fixing your comment? Currently, it reads like that was my quote but I was quoting someone else to get clarification. I agree with you.
@Extremeengineer said: @PeakRarities as I am now on my phone I’ll not quote and reply as that gets messy. I’ll try to answer your core question that was directed largely at me, and confirm some assumptions.
Yes, I am a buyer, yes, I have bought on GC and on eBay, and I primarily buy at a few lcs. I don’t buy on the other sites you mentioned, nor am I well informed in their policies. I have purchased several collector cars at auction, so my baseline for auction expectations does indeed seem to not align with what yours are, or other coin auction sites. Again, I am ignorant regarding other coin auction site terms, but it sounds like I would not be happy using them from what you said.
As to the $900 vs. $1,000; the FMV, what the coin sold for, is $900. You would have paid $1,000, who is to say someone else somewhere wouldn’t have paid $1,150? So to me that is the Maximized market value, I should have been more clear. Maximized market value is hard to determine as it isn’t what the coin changed hands for. If there is no sale, then there is no FMV established, that’s my belief. For instance, I am restoring one of my first mountain bikes, a mid 90’s Cannondale F3000. I have nearly all of the original parts, except for a CODA900 rear hub. It’s not an esoteric part like the magic motorcycle cranks, it’s a fairly pedestrian hub. They sell for $125 on the market when they rarely pop up. That’s the FMV. I’d pay more for one, I’m an outlier, I’m a MMV buyer for that part. You can, and may very well, disagree with my logic, but it’s what I apply when buying at auction.
Maybe the “problem” is I don’t carry the baggage of antiquated auction policies into the equation, for better or worse. Maybe that’s why Great Collections came to be, an alternative to the entrenched “rules” of coin purchasing. But now I’m over the line and into making assumptions.
One last point, in this day of digital breadcrumbs, any site could largely neuter a snipe processor, they’d just have to want to.
Thank you again for the thoughtful reply, I appreciate the discourse.
Although my questions were aimed at you, it was because your thorough presentation made it easier for me to respond in kind. Evidently, many here share your sentiment and they would be discouraged by a proxy feature. That may very well be the main appeal of using GC for a number of folks, among other attractive features. However, as I pointed out, the exclusive buyer perspective is at odds with that of a consignor, the implications are seemingly clear. Then we are reminded that this is numismatics, and nothing is ever straightforward; there are always nuances and complexities to take into account. For instance, it may appear as though a hard close format accommodates buyers at the expense of the consignor, but we know this not to be a steadfast commandment. Maybe the potential disadvantage for the consignor is offset by increased participation from collectors? We may never know...but it never hurts to be aware of all the considerations.
For proper retail pricing - Auctions are not FMV LOL - they are liquidations, a wholesale parameter that the dealer is going to markup accordingly. Like CDN Bid x markup factor. For fmv you should consult CDN CPG or PCGS Coin Facts. Many auc wins I simply markup cost plus / refer to CPG. Material that is PQ may be marked up even higher than CPG in developing proper, accurate retail pricing. This is set by the dealer in developing a consistent approach keep the biz on an even keel with the overall financial model of the business.
Dealer A wins a coin at auction for $100. Using his markup matrix his markup is 35 pct ——- $100 x 1.35 = $135 sell. This is a fair retail pricing for material at that level and in his business plan parameters.
Ricky uses 1.40 and Frankie 1.50 / I have a sweet tooth he says (guffaw).
“… Then we are reminded that this is numismatics, and nothing is ever straightforward; there are always nuances and complexities to take into account. For instance, it may appear as though a hard close format accommodates buyers at the expense of the consignor, but we know this not to be a steadfast commandment. Maybe the potential disadvantage for the consignor is offset by increased participation from collectors? We may never know...but it never hurts to be aware of all the considerations.”
Your perspective is definitely in line with my thinking. I do not participate in soft close auctions as many other buyers also sit out, and for what it’s worth I am willing to pay MMV for the coins I’m after. Sometimes the trees are just very tall.
@leothelyon said:
Do consigners have the option to have their coins GreatPhotoed, if so..at what cost? Personally, I really need to see the coin before bidding. Those who pass on GreatPhoto, maybe the coin is not all that great.
Leo
It is my understanding that GC decides which ones to GreatPhoto, not really random but those with nice qualities. I could be wrong and Ian would know if he returns to this thread.
If you specifically ask for a reasonable value coin to have a GreatPhoto it is more than likely they'll do it. They did for me a couple times on ~$1000 coins. I just put a note on the consignment form.
I would just be emphasize the "reasonable" descriptor, because that's about as subjective as grading
The way it was announced IIRC is that coins with toning and unique attributes would be given more consideration for a "GP", some proof coins as well.
For instance, it may appear as though a hard close format accommodates buyers at the expense of the consignor, but we know this not to be a steadfast commandment. Maybe the potential disadvantage for the consignor is offset by increased participation from collectors? We may never know...but it never hurts to be aware of all the considerations.
A reasonable hypothesis is that the all-in realized prices at GC are lower due to the hard close, but the net price to the consignor is higher due to lower fees. That gets you to the "everybody wins" narrative. Also you get your money a lot faster as a consignor.
I find the hard close annoying, but someday I will try a high-end coin and see what happens...
Whatever happened to the mantra "bid your max and then live by it"?
Whether it is early or later, if you have a max in mind, bid it, and get outbid, then it may sting but you did what you wanted, right?
For instance, it may appear as though a hard close format accommodates buyers at the expense of the consignor, but we know this not to be a steadfast commandment. Maybe the potential disadvantage for the consignor is offset by increased participation from collectors? We may never know...but it never hurts to be aware of all the considerations.
A reasonable hypothesis is that the all-in realized prices at GC are lower due to the hard close, but the net price to the consignor is higher due to lower fees. That gets you to the "everybody wins" narrative. Also you get your money a lot faster as a consignor.
I find the hard close annoying, but someday I will try a high-end coin and see what happens...
It sounds reasonable, but the hole in that theory is that you're assuming the consignor is getting only 100% of hammer at the other outfits. That would work for a casual collector/hobbyist, but many high end coins are likely part of consignement where terms were negotiated. Definitely get a check quicker though.
I recently sent those two high-end gold coins that performed considerably worse than I expected based on comps, but buth of them have been impacted by market softening. One was a no motto $20 (58 CAC) that got Fairmonted, and the issue overall is about 25-30% down from just a few years ago. The other one was a high-grade widget, a gorgeous widget in in superb gem (no cac) that wasn't affected by fairmont, but its also down about 25-30% from market highs. Both of those can reasonably be attributed to market softness, but those are coins where 12- bidders are on vacation and it could make a huge difference.
I was more surprised with some of the other coins, there were 2 better date no motto branch mint gold coins. One of them was a courtesy purchase that I paid too much for, so no surprise on that one. The other was an impulse purchase from HA earlier this year, I was disappointed when I got it in hand but i guess it wasn't that bad because it did end up crossing to PCGS so I thought I might break even, but including bp it sold for 10% under cost.
One was a really nice impaired proof gold coin (58) with a cac sticker, i crossed it and thought I bought it right. I thought it would at least go 5% over bid, but it went 5% under bid instead.
Another courtesy purchase, an early draped bust half in XF. Wasnt cac but it had a nice commercial look to it, I paid closer to CPG than bid because i thought it was a CAC coin flip (50/50), but it ended up going a tad under bid.
One of the others was a nice 1878 $3, I got crushed on that one. The market for those has also tanked, but I thought the fact that it was really nice for the grade would provide some insulation....nope, it sold for the same money as the ugly ones.
Lastly, a couple late date, high grade, lustrous white CAC walkers that came from an HA sale earlier this year. I bought from an upgrader who had given up on them, when he bought them they were in older blue holders but this time around they were gold shield. 60% and 40% losses, respectively 😬. One comment on the CAC forum saind the late date walker market was in freefall, so either they were right, or the old holders made that much of a difference. Maybe a little bit of both...
Not trying to ramble, but i wasn't sure if any of this info may be helpful to anyone. There's not really any conclusionsthat can be drawn, especially when theres various factors that could had a substantial impact on the prices. Im recognizing the pattern of falling comps in all of the aprs though, its not relegated to GC. I'll list my takeaways here-
Greysheet is meaningless in a falling market, specifically for higher value coins
Avoid gold issues that are frequently offered in fairmont sales, unless I plan on holding for a while
leave old holdered coins alone for right now, PCGS isnt giving out many "gifts" as of late.
take a break from the courtesy purchases, lol
If it's still in my inventory, I haven't lost anything yet....😅
For instance, it may appear as though a hard close format accommodates buyers at the expense of the consignor, but we know this not to be a steadfast commandment. Maybe the potential disadvantage for the consignor is offset by increased participation from collectors? We may never know...but it never hurts to be aware of all the considerations.
A reasonable hypothesis is that the all-in realized prices at GC are lower due to the hard close, but the net price to the consignor is higher due to lower fees. That gets you to the "everybody wins" narrative. Also you get your money a lot faster as a consignor.
I find the hard close annoying, but someday I will try a high-end coin and see what happens...
Except the fees are sometimes higher. Almost always higher than ebay and sometimes higher than Stacks or Heritage.
And a focus on fees alone ignores the possible differences in exposure and customer bases.
@Bochiman said:
Whatever happened to the mantra "bid your max and then live by it"?
Whether it is early or later, if you have a max in mind, bid it, and get outbid, then it may sting but you did what you wanted, right?
What ever happened to reading the comments in the thread?
@DocBenjamin said:
This thread is entertaining as hell but also eye opening.
Think I will quit buying coins at auction for a while. Probably have a consignment ready for Ian in the 4th quarter, but may hold off on that as well.
What is the impetus to pull back?
On the selling side, it is the better stuff for estate planning. Got a bunch of high end errors that are supported by an even thinner market. Some concerns over the so called hard close, especially if the heavy hitters are morphing towards very late bids.
@DocBenjamin said:
This thread is entertaining as hell but also eye opening.
Think I will quit buying coins at auction for a while. Probably have a consignment ready for Ian in the 4th quarter, but may hold off on that as well.
What is the impetus to pull back?
On the selling side, it is the better stuff for estate planning. Got a bunch of high end errors that are supported by an even thinner market. Some concerns over the so called hard close, especially if the heavy hitters are morphing towards very late bids.
Heritage Signature is making more sense.
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Regardless, I myself am actually going to try to buy more coins at auction because of this, not less. If the modern day collectibles market is anything like the securities market, the cycles could very well be much shorter and we might not have to wait that long for another bull market.
Not trying to ramble, but i wasn't sure if any of this info may be helpful to anyone. There's not really any conclusionsthat can be drawn, especially when theres various factors that could had a substantial impact on the prices. Im recognizing the pattern of falling comps in all of the aprs though, its not relegated to GC. I'll list my takeaways here-
Greysheet is meaningless in a falling market, specifically for higher value coins
Avoid gold issues that are frequently offered in fairmont sales, unless I plan on holding for a while
leave old holdered coins alone for right now, PCGS isnt giving out many "gifts" as of late.
take a break from the courtesy purchases, lol
If it's still in my inventory, I haven't lost anything yet....😅
I’ve never consigned to any other auction firm besides GC, but I purchase more from others because of the proxy feature. I used to buy a lot more on GC when the stuff I deal in had more actual auctions, but I think it’s clear that GC consignors are tired(or scared) of lower than expected results by the increased amount of reserves I see weekly.
I’ve had mixed but mostly lower than expected results consigning to GC, but I can blame most of that on myself (assuming I only send to them if I had the coin too long and want to blow it out. ) I also assume that I either paid too much or market softened.
It is interesting though not too long ago I sent in two pretty rare coins and set reserves. They didn’t sell through so each new listing I had them lower reserve prices by 10%. One sold for the first drops reserve. The second took three times lowering reserve, and ended up selling for more than the original listings price.
I currently have some coins ending this weekend and so far interest is high, but bids are way under both my cost and previous (within this week) comps.
My opinion on your bullet points.
I mostly deal in widgets and items under $500 with a few higher value here and there so my interpretation of the markets is I’m sure much different than what you experience. But IMO
Greysheet is meaningless or your best friend in a falling market depending on how you use it. Some dealers are locked into the pricing as the only option and using auction comps (eBay included) to determine if the Greysheet is too high or low or had adjusted accordingly can save you.
I personally avoid most gold for resale because I don’t have a fast outlet for it if the market moves.
Old holders are still pretty hot and have a following with new collectors on eBay and whatnot. So I always try to leave as is, take care of the slab, clean sticker residue etc and keep in slab protectors. I dint usually play crack out. Especially not with old holders.
I make courtesy purchases from several dealers that provide me with great deals regularly. If I know I’m paying too much for one coin because they gave me deals on multiple others, I sell it as fast I can. The longer I try to keep and break even, the more that loss irritates me.
I don’t usually worry about having items for too long because where I sell (mostly eBay and my website) cost of maintaining is very low. I sell coins that have been listed for 6 months, a year or an hour.
Every once in a while I review my prices and if the market has changed I may decide to ship off to GC, lower my price and accept any offer that makes me near whole, or has a minimal loss.
Some great minds and experienced dealers in here and that I’ve dealt with at shows. Most of the successful ones know that not all purchases are winners and get rid of the losers quick.
The risk of holding old overpriced inventory does potentially cost you customers. I know there are several museum dealers at the shows I go to that I just walk past because the same overpriced coins are still in the case.
And I bet there are people that look at some of my inventory and think the same about me.
I can only assume that at the level of coins your dealing in, keeping new coins moving is even more important than where I sit.
Some people try to snipe, but they wait too long and miss by seconds. The consigner loses money on these types of people. Also, those who forget to bid or are busy. I still like GC the way that it is, though. You just have to get used to the system. Personally, I enjoy placing bids and watching auctions on a Sunday night. It gives me a little relaxation time to myself. Away from the stressors of life, as I’m busy much of the time. It’s a great escape.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
@DocBenjamin said:
This thread is entertaining as hell but also eye opening.
Think I will quit buying coins at auction for a while. Probably have a consignment ready for Ian in the 4th quarter, but may hold off on that as well.
What is the impetus to pull back?
On the selling side, it is the better stuff for estate planning. Got a bunch of high end errors that are supported by an even thinner market. Some concerns over the so called hard close, especially if the heavy hitters are morphing towards very late bids.
Heritage Signature is making more sense.
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Regardless, I myself am actually going to try to buy more coins at auction because of this, not less. If the modern day collectibles market is anything like the securities market, the cycles could very well be much shorter and we might not have to wait that long for another bull market.
Been a GC customer for over a decade. Mostly as a buyer. Seemed until recently that bidding was fairly evenly dispersed with few surprises at the close. Conversely Ebay with the snipe capability, long ago became a last few seconds of mayhem auction venue.
To be clear, I have no dispute with anyone's bidding strategy which gives them a real or perceived advantage. Before the internet though, almost every coin auction ended when every bid or counter bid was satisfied. Not so of course, when the final bid goes uncontested.
All good and all fair, but as a seller, I want the last voice to be heard, not locked out by a passionless timer.
@PeakRarities said:
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
> That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
I don’t follow about not helping the consignor. Anytime there’s a bid, the consignor is being helped.
Concerning your rare coin statement, another bidder and myself were both involved in sniping a GC coin awhile back.
In a little over a minute, we each entered 2.5k bids. So in this case the seller definitely benefited from our sniping.😉
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
The GC format is Teletrade with some tweaks. TT was never designed for 5 or 6 figure coins. People that consign 5 and6 figure coins to GC rather than HA or Stacks have to hope they make up the difference on speed from consignment to payment and less of a bite from seller fees.
GC’s bread and butter is coins in the low to mid 4 figures and there is nothing wrong with that.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
> That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
I don’t follow about not helping the consignor. Anytime there’s a bid, the consignor is being helped.
Concerning your rare coin statement, another bidder and myself were both involved in sniping a GC coin awhile back.
In a little over a minute, we each entered 2.5k bids. So in this case the seller definitely benefited from our sniping.😉
Yes, but it's likely that you or other bidder would have gone higher if you knew or thought one more bid increment would win it for you. But neither of you had the opportunity to go higher because of the hard close.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
Yeah, that is the trap. Like playing Texas Holdem with all of the cards face down.
@skier07 said:
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
Why didn’t you just input your max bid if $1308 was sufficiently high enough but you would have gone higher ie: $3000? I had a coin back in January that I expected to sell for between $7,500 and $10,500. I put in my max nuclear bid so that no matter what I’d win the coin. It ended up selling for $12,450 and I’m glad my logic worked. I don’t follow a max snipe bid that you should have max sniped higher.
Post loss remorse it’s easy to say the seller lost out on additional funds but that’s not what your wallet said at the time the auction closed.
Comments
That's true, but that's where increments come in.
I meant to reply to that comment. I'm guessing that unless Ian is granting access to bidding bots, his Cloudflare service currently blocks any and all automated attempts at data scraping (and entering bids) on his site.
I have, at times painfully, read through this whole thread. I am, at best, a bit player, I primarily buy coins in the 4 figures arena, so I'm still playing in the farm league compared to many here. I never see myself becoming a dealer.
I would hate to see proxy bids on GC. My belief is the coins, all coins, on GC sell for FMV. I am not going to speak for GC, but I think that is sort of their point with the current system, the active early bidders combined with those that come in at the last second all matter equally. I wouldn't bid on auctions if I knew that dealers, or collectors, were just going to have all their snipes scheduled, which to me nullifies having an "auction". Imagine a Mecum auction for a collector car, and they spend the time running through all of the on hand bidders escalating the price to a point that the value has been maximized, and then they open three sealed envelopes between going twice and gone, and one of those values is hammered as the winner. Sort of defeats the whole point of an auction to sell at FMV. How far would one take MMV instead of FMV? Do you contact everyone that has looked at the coin and offer a proxy opportunity? Do you contact everyone that has purchased similar coins in the past and offer them a proxy opportunity? As a dealer I wouldn't think you would want MMV vs. FMV. There is no markup to MMV.
Are there variables to FMV, absolutely, time, spot, market trends, visibility, nuance, and just as you learned when you lost $8500 by not considering some variables, those variables can be just as detrimental as they can be positive. When I was actively selling a Marklin Z scale collection on eBay, I learned the best times to schedule my auctions to end, to maximize my proceeds. I increased the FMV I sold at by manipulating a variable I could control. I enjoy bidding on GC auctions though, and proxies would largely kill that. i have no doubt that there are those doing back door proxies now, and if that continues, I would hope that eventually GC would do something about it, as it is a detractor for me.
As a collector why wouldn't I want to use exactly your logic for myself, i.e. buying a coin that I recognize could be sold for 10% higher if everyone and their brother got a proxy, but due to whatever circumstances, I am able to purchase at a fair price, instead of a maximum price. I don't want to have to bid the maximum if I can win it at a fair price. I can do that now on GC, I'd hate to lose that, it would certainly make this hobby less appealing if I had to wait for all of the secret envelopes to be opened before I knew if I had won a coin on GC.
Since Ian has commented on this thread, I will offer the single biggest critique I have of GC and the single largest recommendation I have.
The photo quality is too poor for me to determine how the coin will look in hand to bid and I do believe my coin sales have suffered on GC because the coin photos are not as attractive or true to life that could bring higher bids.
That is my opinion as someone who has consigned with Great Collections over the years. Otherwise, I believe GC to have the most potential as an auction house relative to the majority of the collector base.
...> @ARCO said:
Hasn't photo quality been improved by the addition of Phil and GreatPhotos? The quality of his photos made my last purchase much easier.
This comment is outdated. When did you last consign?
We could let UPS or FEDEX run the auction then…lol
I LOVE my Z scale Marklin trains. Had them since I was stationed in Germany in the early 80’s and put them out every Christmas. I love to put the locomotives next to a dime or quarter to let people see just how small they are! Such a fun hobby to go with my coin collecting! 😉
It does look like my post was outdated. Thanks for the update. My last consignment was October 2023. I hadn't been back to the site in a while.
Looks like I can get another consignment ready. This is great progress for GC.
Johnny…. You said it best
Thank you for your well thought out reply. First though, lets regroup and re-center the didscussion. Forget about GC and focus on the concepts and the psychology, I just changed the title of that thread for that reason. Now lets highlight some of foundational bullet points upon which we can all agree-
There are two primary auction formats, soft close and hard close.
Both formats allow you to execute a regular bid at any time.
Both formats have options to hide your bid until the final moments. "Proxies" for soft close, "sniping" for hard close.
The main difference between a snipe and a proxy is that one extends the auction, and the other requires live participation. "Live sniping" needs no explanation.
The accessibility for "sealed sniping" is variable, and may need to be orchestrated through a 3rd party software- For example, using "gixen" on ebay.
Now with those things laid out, I have a couple questions (not just directed you, but for anyone with similar views)
"I would hate to see proxy bids on GC. My belief is the coins, all coins, on GC sell for FMV.
Im going to assume you're mainly a buyer, you can tell me if thats wrong. Im curious how we are defining "FMV" though? In any auction, If a coin you didnt notice sells for $900. You would have paid $1000. Which figure is the FMV?
"I wouldn't bid on auctions if I knew that dealers, or collectors, were just going to have all their snipes scheduled, which to me nullifies having an "auction". Imagine a Mecum auction for a collector car, and they spend the time running through all of the on hand bidders escalating the price to a point that the value has been maximized, and then they open three sealed envelopes between going twice and gone, and one of those values is hammered as the winner."
So can I reasonably assume you don't buy coins at Heritage or Stacks, since that basically how it's set up? It doesn't matter what the bidding activity was prior to the lot going live, there may be a phone or internet bid that was placed weeks ago that wont execute until the lot is. The scenario you describe is not outlandish whatsoever, thats how many auctions work and its happened to me at several times.
"Sort of defeats the whole point of an auction to sell at FMV. How far would one take MMV instead of FMV? Do you contact everyone that has looked at the coin and offer a proxy opportunity? Do you contact everyone that has purchased similar coins in the past and offer them a proxy opportunity?"
You lost me here. The options to conceal your bid are more accessible at some auctions than they are at others, but I don't know how to differentiate between FMV and "MMV". The IRS defines FMV as the following:
IRS Regulation Section 1.170A-1(c)(2) defines Fair Market Value (FMV) as “the price at which property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.”
So that brings me back to the my first question...900 vs 1000
"As a dealer I wouldn't think you would want MMV vs. FMV. There is no markup to MMV."
As an consignor, I want the buyer to most amount of money possible. As a buyer, I want to pay the least amount of money possible. Collector or dealer, I think we all can agree on that logic, its human nature to want what's best for ourselves.
"Are there variables to FMV, absolutely, time, spot, market trends, visibility, nuance, and just as you learned when you lost $8500 by not considering some variables, those variables can be just as detrimental as they can be positive. When I was actively selling a Marklin Z scale collection on eBay, I learned the best times to schedule my auctions to end, to maximize my proceeds. I increased the FMV I sold at by manipulating a variable I could control. I enjoy bidding on GC auctions though, and proxies would largely kill that. i have no doubt that there are those doing back door proxies now, and if that continues, I would hope that eventually GC would do something about it, as it is a detractor for me."
GC doesn't enable it, and it may be in the terms and conditions that it's against the rules to do so. At the same time, what would they be able to do about it if someone coded a way to snipe, and how would you be able to tell whos doing it?
"As a collector why wouldn't I want to use exactly your logic for myself, i.e. buying a coin that I recognize could be sold for 10% higher if everyone and their brother got a proxy, but due to whatever circumstances, I am able to purchase at a fair price, instead of a maximum price. **I don't want to have to bid the maximum if I can win it at a fair price. I can do that now on GC, I'd hate to lose that, it would certainly make this hobby less appealing if I had to wait for all of the secret envelopes to be opened before I knew if I had won a coin on GC.
Like I said, I have to assume that GC is the only auction house where you buy anything. What I want you to consider, is if the roles were reversed and it was your coins in the auction, would you still be in favor of bidders not having to pay the maximum?
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This is largely very well argued. I would make two small comments: there are no secret envelopes in either format. The closest thing to a secret envelope is actually on GC not in a soft close. In a soft close, anyone can come back in and bid.
I also think that the GC format is LEAST LIKELY to yield mastery value. Hard closes can be a game to sneak in at the end. In a soft close, the only way to win is to exhaust all other bidders who always have the opportunity to reenter the bidding.
I am always amazed that people somehow think that GC is beneficial for both the buyer and the seller. That simply can't be true other than the BP/SP in certain price ranges for some consignors.
Yep. There are advantages and disadvantages to each format and feature. Hard closes favor buyers. Soft closes favor sellers.
Just like I always question when I see bullion dealers who claim to offer the best buy prices and also the lowest sale prices. Now of course some businesses may be able to operate on reduced margins, but I always question whether the shop that pays the most for its inventory can really also sell at the lowest prices also.
In procuring show inventory -
GC - I will line up bid candidates to bid on (making notes about bid, MV, etc.) then bid in final seconds, it’s been a very successful strategy. It takes some planning be in the operational area at the right time. If some rich player has put in nuke bids then move on to something else. I am there to procure inventory can sell at decent profit. Sometimes w luck competition won’t be there. I also monitor candidates from watchlist leading up to auc close. Sometimes a test lowball bid put in way before close see if anybody there to jump / like a sub sending out pings. What I don’t want is a bid war with some rich collector. As a hobbyist of strategy, war games I have the right skill set to get some good buys there. Really enjoyable, lucrative. Love beating them to the punch. If you do your homework, have a good strategy, success can be there.
Do consigners have the option to have their coins GreatPhotoed, if so..at what cost? Personally, I really need to see the coin before bidding. Those who pass on GreatPhoto, maybe the coin is not all that great.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
There is one caveat and that gets into higher priced coins where there is advantage to bidding early. Once you get to the higher bid increments (like $1k, typically $1200 w/BP), I think it helps to be early knowing that it will take a determined buyer to want to outbid you by $1200.
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No, not necessarily. A while back I purchased a coin on GC that didn’t have a GreatPhoto. For some reason I can only assume the consignor decided against photographing it. Luckily for him, I knew the coin, bid and won it anyway. It was a little scruffy AU50, but for the issue an excellent example.
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Fortunately, after I won it I ask GC if Phil could do a GreatPhoto, which they agreed to and that pic is now part of the ‘sale page’ just like if it was there, prior to the actual sale. Thanks Ian!
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In reference to this massive thread, for me a proxy bid system would cause no problem. As Dan said, one where the proxy bid actually came in a few minutes before auction closing wouldn’t cause me any grief.
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As to whether I would use a proxy, probably not. I feel more in control sniping. At the end, I may decide to bid more than I originally set as a maximum amount. This is not because I’ve gotten carried way but rather I might just reevaluate how nice or rare the coin actually is, compared to my first estimate.
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The one thing I don’t do is bid early (non-proxy). This strategy just always makes me think I bidding against myself!😉
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Just my .02 cents.
@PeakRarities as I am now on my phone I’ll not quote and reply as that gets messy. I’ll try to answer your core question that was directed largely at me, and confirm some assumptions.
Yes, I am a buyer, yes, I have bought on GC and on eBay, and I primarily buy at a few lcs. I don’t buy on the other sites you mentioned, nor am I well informed in their policies. I have purchased several collector cars at auction, so my baseline for auction expectations does indeed seem to not align with what yours are, or other coin auction sites. Again, I am ignorant regarding other coin auction site terms, but it sounds like I would not be happy using them from what you said.
As to the $900 vs. $1,000; the FMV, what the coin sold for, is $900. You would have paid $1,000, who is to say someone else somewhere wouldn’t have paid $1,150? So to me that is the Maximized market value, I should have been more clear. Maximized market value is hard to determine as it isn’t what the coin changed hands for. If there is no sale, then there is no FMV established, that’s my belief. For instance I am restoring one of my first mountain bikes, a mid 90’s Cannondale F3000. I have nearly all of the original parts, except for a CODA900 rear hub. It’s not an esoteric part like the majic motorcycle cranks, it’s actually a fairly pedestrian hub. They sell for $125 on the market when they rarely pop up. That’s the FMV. I’d pay more for one, I’m an outlier, I’m a MMV buyer for that part. You can, and may very well, disagree with my logic, but it’s what I apply when buying at auction.
Maybe the “problem” is I don’t carry the baggage of antiquated auction policies into the equation, for better or worse. Maybe that’s why Great Collections came to be, an alternative to the entrenched “rules” of coin purchasing. But now I’m over the line and into making assumptions.
One last point, in this day of digital breadcrumbs, any site could largely neuter a snipe processor, they’d just have to want to.
It is my understanding that GC decides which ones to GreatPhoto, not really random but those with nice qualities. I could be wrong and Ian would know if he returns to this thread.
If you specifically ask for a reasonable value coin to have a GreatPhoto it is more than likely they'll do it. They did for me a couple times on ~$1000 coins. I just put a note on the consignment form.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
It may have changed but I believe word from Ian is that GC decides which coins to GP. I haven't noticed too much rhyme or reason as some really low priced coins have them and sometimes higher priced coins do not. When I was interested in one i particular which I thought may be a particular VAM, I requested a GP and GC posted one (of course there was plenty of time left before the auction end date). I'm sure a consignor could requested GPs and GC is pretty accommodating, but I'm not sure a consignor can request them not to GP.
I disagree that an auction establishes fair market value. Auctions are generally liquidation mechanisms... places sellers use to get rid of stuff and places buyers go to get deals. A retail shop is FMV. This is generally true but there are exceptions for ultra rare and 1 of a kind items where really the only place to establish market value is an auction, such as if you wanted to sell the Mona Lisa. If you're talking about a fairly easy to obtain AU58 1937-D 3 Legged buffalo nickel, FMV is what the LCS sells it for, but you can almost always get it at an auction for less.
I disagree also
For proper retail pricing - Auctions are not FMV LOL - they are liquidations, a wholesale parameter that the dealer is going to markup accordingly. Like CDN Bid x markup factor. For fmv you should consult CDN CPG or PCGS Coin Facts. Many auc wins I simply markup cost plus / refer to CPG. Material that is PQ may be marked up even higher than CPG in developing proper, accurate retail pricing. This is set by the dealer in developing a consistent approach keep the biz on an even keel with the overall financial model of the business.
Dealer A wins a coin at auction for $100. Using his markup matrix his markup is 35 pct ——- $100 x 1.35 = $135 sell. This is a fair retail pricing for material at that level and in his business plan parameters.
Ricky uses 1.40 and Frankie 1.50 / I have a sweet tooth he says (guffaw).
This thread is entertaining as hell but also eye opening.
Think I will quit buying coins at auction for a while. Probably have a consignment ready for Ian in the 4th quarter, but may hold off on that as well.
@ProofCollection - Would you mind fixing your comment? Currently, it reads like that was my quote but I was quoting someone else to get clarification. I agree with you.
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Thank you again for the thoughtful reply, I appreciate the discourse.
Although my questions were aimed at you, it was because your thorough presentation made it easier for me to respond in kind. Evidently, many here share your sentiment and they would be discouraged by a proxy feature. That may very well be the main appeal of using GC for a number of folks, among other attractive features. However, as I pointed out, the exclusive buyer perspective is at odds with that of a consignor, the implications are seemingly clear. Then we are reminded that this is numismatics, and nothing is ever straightforward; there are always nuances and complexities to take into account. For instance, it may appear as though a hard close format accommodates buyers at the expense of the consignor, but we know this not to be a steadfast commandment. Maybe the potential disadvantage for the consignor is offset by increased participation from collectors? We may never know...but it never hurts to be aware of all the considerations.
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What is the impetus to pull back?
It appears you’ve been fooling us all along.
“… Then we are reminded that this is numismatics, and nothing is ever straightforward; there are always nuances and complexities to take into account. For instance, it may appear as though a hard close format accommodates buyers at the expense of the consignor, but we know this not to be a steadfast commandment. Maybe the potential disadvantage for the consignor is offset by increased participation from collectors? We may never know...but it never hurts to be aware of all the considerations.”
Your perspective is definitely in line with my thinking. I do not participate in soft close auctions as many other buyers also sit out, and for what it’s worth I am willing to pay MMV for the coins I’m after. Sometimes the trees are just very tall.
I would just be emphasize the "reasonable" descriptor, because that's about as subjective as grading
The way it was announced IIRC is that coins with toning and unique attributes would be given more consideration for a "GP", some proof coins as well.
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A reasonable hypothesis is that the all-in realized prices at GC are lower due to the hard close, but the net price to the consignor is higher due to lower fees. That gets you to the "everybody wins" narrative. Also you get your money a lot faster as a consignor.
I find the hard close annoying, but someday I will try a high-end coin and see what happens...
Whatever happened to the mantra "bid your max and then live by it"?
Whether it is early or later, if you have a max in mind, bid it, and get outbid, then it may sting but you did what you wanted, right?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I’d spend much less. I like the Sunday event as it is. It’s fun and I like the prices. If it changes I’ll go elsewhere.
Casual collector, mostly Morgans & Peace Dollars.
But If interested google auctions and game theory or auctions and mathematics — this is a fun topic
Casual collector, mostly Morgans & Peace Dollars.
It sounds reasonable, but the hole in that theory is that you're assuming the consignor is getting only 100% of hammer at the other outfits. That would work for a casual collector/hobbyist, but many high end coins are likely part of consignement where terms were negotiated. Definitely get a check quicker though.
I recently sent those two high-end gold coins that performed considerably worse than I expected based on comps, but buth of them have been impacted by market softening. One was a no motto $20 (58 CAC) that got Fairmonted, and the issue overall is about 25-30% down from just a few years ago. The other one was a high-grade widget, a gorgeous widget in in superb gem (no cac) that wasn't affected by fairmont, but its also down about 25-30% from market highs. Both of those can reasonably be attributed to market softness, but those are coins where 12- bidders are on vacation and it could make a huge difference.
I was more surprised with some of the other coins, there were 2 better date no motto branch mint gold coins. One of them was a courtesy purchase that I paid too much for, so no surprise on that one. The other was an impulse purchase from HA earlier this year, I was disappointed when I got it in hand but i guess it wasn't that bad because it did end up crossing to PCGS so I thought I might break even, but including bp it sold for 10% under cost.
One was a really nice impaired proof gold coin (58) with a cac sticker, i crossed it and thought I bought it right. I thought it would at least go 5% over bid, but it went 5% under bid instead.
Another courtesy purchase, an early draped bust half in XF. Wasnt cac but it had a nice commercial look to it, I paid closer to CPG than bid because i thought it was a CAC coin flip (50/50), but it ended up going a tad under bid.
One of the others was a nice 1878 $3, I got crushed on that one. The market for those has also tanked, but I thought the fact that it was really nice for the grade would provide some insulation....nope, it sold for the same money as the ugly ones.
Lastly, a couple late date, high grade, lustrous white CAC walkers that came from an HA sale earlier this year. I bought from an upgrader who had given up on them, when he bought them they were in older blue holders but this time around they were gold shield. 60% and 40% losses, respectively 😬. One comment on the CAC forum saind the late date walker market was in freefall, so either they were right, or the old holders made that much of a difference. Maybe a little bit of both...
Not trying to ramble, but i wasn't sure if any of this info may be helpful to anyone. There's not really any conclusionsthat can be drawn, especially when theres various factors that could had a substantial impact on the prices. Im recognizing the pattern of falling comps in all of the aprs though, its not relegated to GC. I'll list my takeaways here-
Greysheet is meaningless in a falling market, specifically for higher value coins
Avoid gold issues that are frequently offered in fairmont sales, unless I plan on holding for a while
leave old holdered coins alone for right now, PCGS isnt giving out many "gifts" as of late.
take a break from the courtesy purchases, lol
If it's still in my inventory, I haven't lost anything yet....😅
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Except the fees are sometimes higher. Almost always higher than ebay and sometimes higher than Stacks or Heritage.
And a focus on fees alone ignores the possible differences in exposure and customer bases.
What ever happened to reading the comments in the thread?
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On the selling side, it is the better stuff for estate planning. Got a bunch of high end errors that are supported by an even thinner market. Some concerns over the so called hard close, especially if the heavy hitters are morphing towards very late bids.
Heritage Signature is making more sense.
Concerns over market strength are one thing, but what is your trepidation about the “heavy hitters” bidding late? I would remove the word “morphing”, that is not a recent development and I’ve always tried to conceal the amount of my “max” for as long as possible. Most of the coins I won from Heritage or Stacks this year weren’t even proxy bids, they were live bids.
Regardless, I myself am actually going to try to buy more coins at auction because of this, not less. If the modern day collectibles market is anything like the securities market, the cycles could very well be much shorter and we might not have to wait that long for another bull market.
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I’ve never consigned to any other auction firm besides GC, but I purchase more from others because of the proxy feature. I used to buy a lot more on GC when the stuff I deal in had more actual auctions, but I think it’s clear that GC consignors are tired(or scared) of lower than expected results by the increased amount of reserves I see weekly.
I’ve had mixed but mostly lower than expected results consigning to GC, but I can blame most of that on myself (assuming I only send to them if I had the coin too long and want to blow it out. ) I also assume that I either paid too much or market softened.
It is interesting though not too long ago I sent in two pretty rare coins and set reserves. They didn’t sell through so each new listing I had them lower reserve prices by 10%. One sold for the first drops reserve. The second took three times lowering reserve, and ended up selling for more than the original listings price.
I currently have some coins ending this weekend and so far interest is high, but bids are way under both my cost and previous (within this week) comps.
My opinion on your bullet points.
I mostly deal in widgets and items under $500 with a few higher value here and there so my interpretation of the markets is I’m sure much different than what you experience. But IMO
Greysheet is meaningless or your best friend in a falling market depending on how you use it. Some dealers are locked into the pricing as the only option and using auction comps (eBay included) to determine if the Greysheet is too high or low or had adjusted accordingly can save you.
I personally avoid most gold for resale because I don’t have a fast outlet for it if the market moves.
Old holders are still pretty hot and have a following with new collectors on eBay and whatnot. So I always try to leave as is, take care of the slab, clean sticker residue etc and keep in slab protectors. I dint usually play crack out. Especially not with old holders.
I make courtesy purchases from several dealers that provide me with great deals regularly. If I know I’m paying too much for one coin because they gave me deals on multiple others, I sell it as fast I can. The longer I try to keep and break even, the more that loss irritates me.
I don’t usually worry about having items for too long because where I sell (mostly eBay and my website) cost of maintaining is very low. I sell coins that have been listed for 6 months, a year or an hour.
Every once in a while I review my prices and if the market has changed I may decide to ship off to GC, lower my price and accept any offer that makes me near whole, or has a minimal loss.
Some great minds and experienced dealers in here and that I’ve dealt with at shows. Most of the successful ones know that not all purchases are winners and get rid of the losers quick.
The risk of holding old overpriced inventory does potentially cost you customers. I know there are several museum dealers at the shows I go to that I just walk past because the same overpriced coins are still in the case.
And I bet there are people that look at some of my inventory and think the same about me.
I can only assume that at the level of coins your dealing in, keeping new coins moving is even more important than where I sit.
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Some people try to snipe, but they wait too long and miss by seconds. The consigner loses money on these types of people. Also, those who forget to bid or are busy. I still like GC the way that it is, though. You just have to get used to the system. Personally, I enjoy placing bids and watching auctions on a Sunday night. It gives me a little relaxation time to myself. Away from the stressors of life, as I’m busy much of the time. It’s a great escape.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Been a GC customer for over a decade. Mostly as a buyer. Seemed until recently that bidding was fairly evenly dispersed with few surprises at the close. Conversely Ebay with the snipe capability, long ago became a last few seconds of mayhem auction venue.
To be clear, I have no dispute with anyone's bidding strategy which gives them a real or perceived advantage. Before the internet though, almost every coin auction ended when every bid or counter bid was satisfied. Not so of course, when the final bid goes uncontested.
All good and all fair, but as a seller, I want the last voice to be heard, not locked out by a passionless timer.
No. I prefer spending less.
HE>I
Suppose a rare error on a common date is currently bid at $250.
Two buyers come along; both perceive the FMV at over $1000.
One buyer snipes at $1000, the other gets cold feet about true FMV at snipes at $600. The coin sells for $625.
The second buyer regrets not sniping at $1050, but got psyched out by the price jump from $250 to $600. Oh well!
That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
> That's the risk of heavy hitters bidding late. It's a market, so in theory buyers and sellers will adjust once they see the results, especially if a buyer keeps losing to snipes. But that adjustment doesn't help the consignor realize full FMV on an unusually rare or unique coin.
I don’t follow about not helping the consignor. Anytime there’s a bid, the consignor is being helped.
Concerning your rare coin statement, another bidder and myself were both involved in sniping a GC coin awhile back.
In a little over a minute, we each entered 2.5k bids. So in this case the seller definitely benefited from our sniping.😉
I recently lost out on a coin being sold on eBay. With 10 seconds left the coin was at $700. I placed a bid for $1308 expecting to win the coin. Someone outsniped me and the coin sold for ~$1325. I would have bid a few hundred dollars more and retrospectively I should have placed a higher bid. The hard close cost the seller money.
The GC format is Teletrade with some tweaks. TT was never designed for 5 or 6 figure coins. People that consign 5 and6 figure coins to GC rather than HA or Stacks have to hope they make up the difference on speed from consignment to payment and less of a bite from seller fees.
GC’s bread and butter is coins in the low to mid 4 figures and there is nothing wrong with that.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Yes, but it's likely that you or other bidder would have gone higher if you knew or thought one more bid increment would win it for you. But neither of you had the opportunity to go higher because of the hard close.
Yeah, that is the trap. Like playing Texas Holdem with all of the cards face down.
this is an interesting thread, I'm not sure what to think
Why didn’t you just input your max bid if $1308 was sufficiently high enough but you would have gone higher ie: $3000? I had a coin back in January that I expected to sell for between $7,500 and $10,500. I put in my max nuclear bid so that no matter what I’d win the coin. It ended up selling for $12,450 and I’m glad my logic worked. I don’t follow a max snipe bid that you should have max sniped higher.
Post loss remorse it’s easy to say the seller lost out on additional funds but that’s not what your wallet said at the time the auction closed.