@thisistheshow said:
My gut tells me that we might very well still pick a QB.
Hooker just went to the Lions in the 3rd which could be a big steal for them. Duggan and Bennett will likely have nice careers as backups, but Hooker was the last one that had starting potential and upside.
@thisistheshow said:
My gut tells me that we might very well still pick a QB.
Hooker just went to the Lions in the 3rd which could be a big steal for them. Duggan and Bennett will likely have nice careers as backups, but Hooker was the last one that had starting potential and upside.
.......
Yup, my gut is probably off here at this point.
As for the picks after them we won't know if they're good or not until they actually play. Pats fans are freaking out today because we're not picking "names" that they know so that automatically means these guys can't play. In most of the previous picks like this over the years BB turned them into decent contributors,imo.
I like what we did today in the draft thus far, but there is going to be a ton of pushback from sports radio.
I'm making the choice to like it. Here's why.
Yes, we went defense early even though it is offense, and specifically O-line that needs work. But we got good players, and I feel like with the defense we had plus this we can be top 3 defense in the league.
Then we addressed offensive line with two picks. Ok. They did it. Finally. We needed that.
And sandwiched between those two Oline picks is a Belichick special. It gives us a lot to talk about. He moved up to take a kicker. Classic BB.
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
I guess on the plus side,there's no clear cut #1 WR here and the one guy that was Mac's go-to for the past two seasons is now playing for the Raiders in Jakobi Meyers. He'll get as good of a chance to become the new favorite as anyone else gets.
Belichick drafted him so I think that any attitude issues the kid might have has to to be known already so it really shouldn't be a worry. He also grabbed a slot WR with a later pick too.
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
I guess on the plus side,there's no clear cut #1 WR here and the one guy that was Mac's go-to for the past two seasons is now playing for the Raiders in Jakobi Meyers. He'll get as good of a chance to become the new favorite as anyone else gets.
Belichick drafted him so I think that any attitude issues the kid might have has to to be known already so it really shouldn't be a worry. He also grabbed a slot WR with a later pick too.
Yea the issues werent any secret. Its worth the shot at that point. I'm surprised someone didnt take him in the 5th or that he got that far into the 6th. By the 5th round youre basically drafting backups at best and most practice squad guys, if you waste one of those picks on a high upside risk it doesnt really matter.
Cunningham really doesnt matter. He probably wouldnt win the job anyways since hes a runner that can also throw a little but his passing stats were just not good at Louisville. They should have drafted someone if theyre thinking Cunningham is the answer which I doubt they are
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
I guess on the plus side,there's no clear cut #1 WR here and the one guy that was Mac's go-to for the past two seasons is now playing for the Raiders in Jakobi Meyers. He'll get as good of a chance to become the new favorite as anyone else gets.
Belichick drafted him so I think that any attitude issues the kid might have has to to be known already so it really shouldn't be a worry. He also grabbed a slot WR with a later pick too.
Yea the issues werent any secret. Its worth the shot at that point. I'm surprised someone didnt take him in the 5th or that he got that far into the 6th. By the 5th round youre basically drafting backups at best and most practice squad guys, if you waste one of those picks on a high upside risk it doesnt really matter.
Cunningham really doesnt matter. He probably wouldnt win the job anyways since hes a runner that can also throw a little but his passing stats were just not good at Louisville. They should have drafted someone if theyre thinking Cunningham is the answer which I doubt they are
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
I guess on the plus side,there's no clear cut #1 WR here and the one guy that was Mac's go-to for the past two seasons is now playing for the Raiders in Jakobi Meyers. He'll get as good of a chance to become the new favorite as anyone else gets.
Belichick drafted him so I think that any attitude issues the kid might have has to to be known already so it really shouldn't be a worry. He also grabbed a slot WR with a later pick too.
Yea the issues werent any secret. Its worth the shot at that point. I'm surprised someone didnt take him in the 5th or that he got that far into the 6th. By the 5th round youre basically drafting backups at best and most practice squad guys, if you waste one of those picks on a high upside risk it doesnt really matter.
Cunningham really doesnt matter. He probably wouldnt win the job anyways since hes a runner that can also throw a little but his passing stats were just not good at Louisville. They should have drafted someone if theyre thinking Cunningham is the answer which I doubt they are
That was entirely sarcasm lol.
Lol who really knows at this point. I would have thought someone saying Mac Jones was getting drafted 15th over all was as well but it happened. Green Bay took a backup player 13th overall this year. Stranger things have happened lol
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
I guess on the plus side,there's no clear cut #1 WR here and the one guy that was Mac's go-to for the past two seasons is now playing for the Raiders in Jakobi Meyers. He'll get as good of a chance to become the new favorite as anyone else gets.
Belichick drafted him so I think that any attitude issues the kid might have has to to be known already so it really shouldn't be a worry. He also grabbed a slot WR with a later pick too.
Yea the issues werent any secret. Its worth the shot at that point. I'm surprised someone didnt take him in the 5th or that he got that far into the 6th. By the 5th round youre basically drafting backups at best and most practice squad guys, if you waste one of those picks on a high upside risk it doesnt really matter.
Cunningham really doesnt matter. He probably wouldnt win the job anyways since hes a runner that can also throw a little but his passing stats were just not good at Louisville. They should have drafted someone if theyre thinking Cunningham is the answer which I doubt they are
That was entirely sarcasm lol.
Lol who really knows at this point. I would have thought someone saying Mac Jones was getting drafted 15th over all was as well but it happened. Green Bay took a backup player 13th overall this year. Stranger things have happened lol
BB must really like this kid to give him him this much money.
The Patriots gave Cunningham a contract that includes $200,000 in total guarantees and a $30,000 signing bonus, according to a source. That’s the most guaranteed money the Patriots have ever given out to an undrafted free agent. It’s more guaranteed money than most 2022 sixth-round picks received last season, though it is a lower signing bonus. https://atozsports.com/new-england/patriots-guaranteed-new-quarterback-a-record-setting-amount-of-money/
That would be interesting,I saw someone else mention doing the same with Marcus Jones. I'm all for it if it means adding another weapon to the offense.
They've added an UDFA TE Johnny Lumpkins out of Louisiana,from what I've read he's mostly a blocker which is still needed.
@Basebal21 said:
Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
I guess on the plus side,there's no clear cut #1 WR here and the one guy that was Mac's go-to for the past two seasons is now playing for the Raiders in Jakobi Meyers. He'll get as good of a chance to become the new favorite as anyone else gets.
Belichick drafted him so I think that any attitude issues the kid might have has to to be known already so it really shouldn't be a worry. He also grabbed a slot WR with a later pick too.
Yea the issues werent any secret. Its worth the shot at that point. I'm surprised someone didnt take him in the 5th or that he got that far into the 6th. By the 5th round youre basically drafting backups at best and most practice squad guys, if you waste one of those picks on a high upside risk it doesnt really matter.
Cunningham really doesnt matter. He probably wouldnt win the job anyways since hes a runner that can also throw a little but his passing stats were just not good at Louisville. They should have drafted someone if theyre thinking Cunningham is the answer which I doubt they are
That was entirely sarcasm lol.
Lol who really knows at this point. I would have thought someone saying Mac Jones was getting drafted 15th over all was as well but it happened. Green Bay took a backup player 13th overall this year. Stranger things have happened lol
Are you a Pats or Packers fan? Some other team?
Neither. Big time college football fan. Used to like the Chargers before they moved and just keep drafting soft defensive players for the most part. Fan of the sport
@thisistheshow said:
I'm not sure how this signing fits in. I could throw out multiple theories, but...
Many Pats fans wanted Lamar Jackson so Belichick brought in the generic version of him. 😉
@erikthredd said:
That would be interesting,I saw someone else mention doing the same with Marcus Jones. I'm all for it if it means adding another weapon to the offense.
They've added an UDFA TE Johnny Lumpkins out of Louisiana,from what I've read he's mostly a blocker which is still needed.
Other than having 12 picks in 7 rounds A- is a hard grade to conclude too. Theres several reach picks in there including a third rounder which should still have value
@thisistheshow said:
I'm not sure how this signing fits in. I could throw out multiple theories, but...
Many Pats fans wanted Lamar Jackson so Belichick brought in the generic version of him. 😉
@erikthredd said:
That would be interesting,I saw someone else mention doing the same with Marcus Jones. I'm all for it if it means adding another weapon to the offense.
They've added an UDFA TE Johnny Lumpkins out of Louisiana,from what I've read he's mostly a blocker which is still needed.
Other than having 12 picks in 7 rounds A- is a hard grade to conclude too. Theres several reach picks in there including a third rounder which should still have value
I think the majority of opinions that I've read so far have mostly thought it was a solid draft for a couple reasons.
1) he filled all of the holes the team he had going into the draft. We needed a starting caliber CB plus secondary depth and he came away with Gonzalez plus 2 other DBs & a LB/S. When you think about the Jets adding Arod and BB not really signing any FA defensive players (mainly because they didn't lose anyone other than Mccourty to retirement) it made sense to boost the pass defense when you also add in White.
They needed more OL depth and between free agency and the draft they've brought in at least 5 new linemen into their rotation. They needed a WR and drafted two. Punter & Kicker (due to Nick Folk's age) were also a need.
2) the few players that were considered reaches might have been evened out by picks like Gonzalez,White & Boute all falling lower than their projected prick range based on their pre draft overall rankings.
Its honestly pretty hilarious reading comments from other Pats fans every draft weekend where they're losing their minds because BB picked player X a round or two before they were projected to go. We've seen Bill turn many of these reaches into solid contributiing players,some who actually helped the team win multiple SBs Just a few years back I remember all of the complaints about NE drafting Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche both in the 2nd and they turned out to be great picks.
BB should make it seem like he's on board with Mac as our QB. If we are sticking with Mac, let's be all in.
Now that BOB is back as OC, BB should be able to go back to the defensive side. Not that he technically left, but we know what happened. We have a chance to really make this into an elite, stout defense.
Clean things up. We've been sloppy and undisciplined in ways that were out of character. I don't want to have the whole debate here about was the Patriot way actually the...let's get back to basics. It is harder to get buy in from these guys when we aren't winning. Players used to just get in line and get their acts together in hope of a ring. Those days are gone. We need to find a way to make things right again.
Belichick has a reputation that is not user friendly for players, these guys would buy in to have a solid chance of winning a Suoer Bowl, those days are gone and nobody wants to come here and deal with Camp Belichick.
If I was a player I'd tell my agent that I will go anywhere but New England, the discipline is rough and the chances of you having the game of your life one week and then getting cut the next week are there.
@thisistheshow said:
I'm not sure how this signing fits in. I could throw out multiple theories, but...
Many Pats fans wanted Lamar Jackson so Belichick brought in the generic version of him. 😉
@erikthredd said:
That would be interesting,I saw someone else mention doing the same with Marcus Jones. I'm all for it if it means adding another weapon to the offense.
They've added an UDFA TE Johnny Lumpkins out of Louisiana,from what I've read he's mostly a blocker which is still needed.
Other than having 12 picks in 7 rounds A- is a hard grade to conclude too. Theres several reach picks in there including a third rounder which should still have value
I think the majority of opinions that I've read so far have mostly thought it was a solid draft for a couple reasons.
1) he filled all of the holes the team he had going into the draft. We needed a starting caliber CB plus secondary depth and he came away with Gonzalez plus 2 other DBs & a LB/S. When you think about the Jets adding Arod and BB not really signing any FA defensive players (mainly because they didn't lose anyone other than Mccourty to retirement) it made sense to boost the pass defense when you also add in White.
They needed more OL depth and between free agency and the draft they've brought in at least 5 new linemen into their rotation. They needed a WR and drafted two. Punter & Kicker (due to Nick Folk's age) were also a need.
2) the few players that were considered reaches might have been evened out by picks like Gonzalez,White & Boute all falling lower than their projected prick range based on their pre draft overall rankings.
Its honestly pretty hilarious reading comments from other Pats fans every draft weekend where they're losing their minds because BB picked player X a round or two before they were projected to go. We've seen Bill turn many of these reaches into solid contributiing players,some who actually helped the team win multiple SBs Just a few years back I remember all of the complaints about NE drafting Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche both in the 2nd and they turned out to be great picks.
Solid and and A- are very different though. I would say it was okay at best. We can leave Boutte out of the conversation, he was worth the risk. Maybe he addressed the need maybe its a wasted pick by that point youre just basically looking at practice squad guys anyways.
Gonzalez was a fine pick especially since Forbes was off the board, I dont have any issue with White either but after that it gets really iffy. Mapu was a reach as was taking Ryland 112 overall. Theres kickers that went undrafted that are just as good as him. Its unfortunate for the kicking position but its the current reality. Most power 5 and really most college kickers have the leg strength for 50+ and even 60+ yard kicks. Its been a while since weve seen one worth really going after, they can all put it out of the endzone on kickoffs now. Punters ironically really have more value
The linemen they picked up really arent anything special. Two of the three have never had to play against elite rushers which they will have to on every down in the NFL. Mafi is okay but they didnt do anything that really improved the O line
Their 3rd and 4th round where theres still some players to be had really turns me off on what they did
@perkdog said:
Belichick has a reputation that is not user friendly for players, these guys would buy in to have a solid chance of winning a Suoer Bowl, those days are gone and nobody wants to come here and deal with Camp Belichick.
If I was a player I'd tell my agent that I will go anywhere but New England, the discipline is rough and the chances of you having the game of your life one week and then getting cut the next week are there.
Thats really the elephant in the room. Brady winning again should end the who meant more Brady or Belli debate. Its fine to coach that way when youre winning, players have little to no tolerance for it on an average team
BB should make it seem like he's on board with Mac as our QB. If we are sticking with Mac, let's be all in.
Now that BOB is back as OC, BB should be able to go back to the defensive side. Not that he technically left, but we know what happened. We have a chance to really make this into an elite, stout defense.
Clean things up. We've been sloppy and undisciplined in ways that were out of character. I don't want to have the whole debate here about was the Patriot way actually the...let's get back to basics. It is harder to get buy in from these guys when we aren't winning. Players used to just get in line and get their acts together in hope of a ring. Those days are gone. We need to find a way to make things right again.
He actually talked about Mac a couple days back when asked about him. I'm just posting the exact quote from the guy asking Greg Bedard and Belichick because the article that I took this from goes on to being the writer's interpretation of BB's reply.
Q: Excuse the question, but I'm going to assume that we're not getting you tomorrow after the draft from what we've been told. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to -- if you wanted to -- to clarify sort of your feelings about Mac Jones. There have been some well-published reports that you were shopping him, that weren't refuted by anyone from the Patriots. And also, you know, Cam Newton, when he started in 2020, you declared him your quarterback. After you drafted Mac Jones [in 2021], you declared [Newton] your quarterback. At the league meetings, you didn't mention Mac by name. I'm just wondering how do you feel about Mac? Is he your quarterback right now? How do you view him going into year three?
A: "Yeah, well I'm not going to respond to the anonymous quotes, Greg, so."
Q: So, I mean, would you like to -- Is [Mac] your quarterback as of right now?
A: "Yeah, I mean, look, Mac's been our quarterback for two years. And as I tell the team every year, each player, each coach, we all have to reestablish and prove ourselves every year. That's what this league is. So that's for all of us. 2023 is 2023 and we'll see how '23 goes."
Q: You were very complimentary of him going into last season and the last training camp.
A: "I'm still --"
Q: Do you still view him the same way?
A: "Absolutely."
I think this would be the best that you'd get from Bill talking about ANY of his players let alone just Mac.
.
.
.
@perkdog said:
Belichick has a reputation that is not user friendly for players, these guys would buy in to have a solid chance of winning a Suoer Bowl, those days are gone and nobody wants to come here and deal with Camp Belichick.
If I was a player I'd tell my agent that I will go anywhere but New England, the discipline is rough and the chances of you having the game of your life one week and then getting cut the next week are there.
Some may think this but we've seen hundreds of players since 2000 come to NE and have BB put them in the best possible position to succeed (and in some cases even win some rings) then when they hit free agency they leave after getting a huge payday. Playing for Bill may be hard at times but it usually has a great payoff at the end.
@thisistheshow said:
I'm not sure how this signing fits in. I could throw out multiple theories, but...
Many Pats fans wanted Lamar Jackson so Belichick brought in the generic version of him. 😉
@erikthredd said:
That would be interesting,I saw someone else mention doing the same with Marcus Jones. I'm all for it if it means adding another weapon to the offense.
They've added an UDFA TE Johnny Lumpkins out of Louisiana,from what I've read he's mostly a blocker which is still needed.
Other than having 12 picks in 7 rounds A- is a hard grade to conclude too. Theres several reach picks in there including a third rounder which should still have value
I think the majority of opinions that I've read so far have mostly thought it was a solid draft for a couple reasons.
1) he filled all of the holes the team he had going into the draft. We needed a starting caliber CB plus secondary depth and he came away with Gonzalez plus 2 other DBs & a LB/S. When you think about the Jets adding Arod and BB not really signing any FA defensive players (mainly because they didn't lose anyone other than Mccourty to retirement) it made sense to boost the pass defense when you also add in White.
They needed more OL depth and between free agency and the draft they've brought in at least 5 new linemen into their rotation. They needed a WR and drafted two. Punter & Kicker (due to Nick Folk's age) were also a need.
2) the few players that were considered reaches might have been evened out by picks like Gonzalez,White & Boute all falling lower than their projected prick range based on their pre draft overall rankings.
Its honestly pretty hilarious reading comments from other Pats fans every draft weekend where they're losing their minds because BB picked player X a round or two before they were projected to go. We've seen Bill turn many of these reaches into solid contributiing players,some who actually helped the team win multiple SBs Just a few years back I remember all of the complaints about NE drafting Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche both in the 2nd and they turned out to be great picks.
Solid and and A- are very different though. I would say it was okay at best. We can leave Boutte out of the conversation, he was worth the risk. Maybe he addressed the need maybe its a wasted pick by that point youre just basically looking at practice squad guys anyways.
Gonzalez was a fine pick especially since Forbes was off the board, I dont have any issue with White either but after that it gets really iffy. Mapu was a reach as was taking Ryland 112 overall. Theres kickers that went undrafted that are just as good as him. Its unfortunate for the kicking position but its the current reality. Most power 5 and really most college kickers have the leg strength for 50+ and even 60+ yard kicks. Its been a while since weve seen one worth really going after, they can all put it out of the endzone on kickoffs now. Punters ironically really have more value
The linemen they picked up really arent anything special. Two of the three have never had to play against elite rushers which they will have to on every down in the NFL. Mafi is okay but they didnt do anything that really improved the O line
Their 3rd and 4th round where theres still some players to be had really turns me off on what they did
The thing with all of these round draft projections is its just an arbitrary number created by some guy at some site and they're all different. (Ironically its alot like PSA grading lol)
I could point to plenty of "Draft Experts" who think that they had a good to great draft but again whatever grade I come up with as proof would be nothing more than another arbitrary grade from some guy.
As for your opinions on their picks I'll just say this, while I appreciate your response haven't we learned by now that Bill Belichick marches to a beat of a different drum when it comes to his draft process?
Again, i could find you 20 players that he drafted as reaches that eventually helped them win many SBs and had decent careers here in NE. I could also find 20 more players that he drafted in their expected draft range that were absolute flops.
It always goes both ways and you'll never really know how a drafted player will turn out until years 3-4,imo. Until then,the immediate draft grades are usually looked at by going off what your biggest team needs were heading into the draft and BB pretty much filled them all the way across the board over this past weekend.
I think that the only real gripe that there could be made about how this Pats draft class ended is that they didn't grab a day one starting tackle,someone in that Matt Light/Nate Solder mould. Even then though they could have plans to move someone like Cole Strange or Michael Onwenu outside and eventually use one of the newer additions to plug inside.
Also after listening to some of the predraft Pats podcasts,some thought that Riley Reif might be considered one of their starting tackles heading into training camp due to how much money the Pats gave him,5M w/4+ of it guaranteed.
That gripe about not picking a for-sure starting tackle in a higher spot is definitely going to come up a lot. Especially if we get to week 6 and it is an issue. If Online isn't an issue, we're okay.
I'm on the record as saying I like the picks, particularly because it plugged so many holes while also making our best group, defense, even better.
I can understand why people would be upset with the kicker and punter picks. The kicker was considered one of only two draftable kickers, but you don't need to draft one. And as for the punter...all I'm saying is I'm fine with things, but I do hope that these two guys are actually our punter and kicker going forward. If not, the criticism will come and be warranted in those two picks. Other than that, I feel as though it was a great draft.
I am a lot more optimistic about the upcoming season after how everything has played out with free agency, coaches, and the draft.
@thisistheshow said:
I'm not sure how this signing fits in. I could throw out multiple theories, but...
Many Pats fans wanted Lamar Jackson so Belichick brought in the generic version of him. 😉
@erikthredd said:
That would be interesting,I saw someone else mention doing the same with Marcus Jones. I'm all for it if it means adding another weapon to the offense.
They've added an UDFA TE Johnny Lumpkins out of Louisiana,from what I've read he's mostly a blocker which is still needed.
Other than having 12 picks in 7 rounds A- is a hard grade to conclude too. Theres several reach picks in there including a third rounder which should still have value
I think the majority of opinions that I've read so far have mostly thought it was a solid draft for a couple reasons.
1) he filled all of the holes the team he had going into the draft. We needed a starting caliber CB plus secondary depth and he came away with Gonzalez plus 2 other DBs & a LB/S. When you think about the Jets adding Arod and BB not really signing any FA defensive players (mainly because they didn't lose anyone other than Mccourty to retirement) it made sense to boost the pass defense when you also add in White.
They needed more OL depth and between free agency and the draft they've brought in at least 5 new linemen into their rotation. They needed a WR and drafted two. Punter & Kicker (due to Nick Folk's age) were also a need.
2) the few players that were considered reaches might have been evened out by picks like Gonzalez,White & Boute all falling lower than their projected prick range based on their pre draft overall rankings.
Its honestly pretty hilarious reading comments from other Pats fans every draft weekend where they're losing their minds because BB picked player X a round or two before they were projected to go. We've seen Bill turn many of these reaches into solid contributiing players,some who actually helped the team win multiple SBs Just a few years back I remember all of the complaints about NE drafting Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche both in the 2nd and they turned out to be great picks.
Solid and and A- are very different though. I would say it was okay at best. We can leave Boutte out of the conversation, he was worth the risk. Maybe he addressed the need maybe its a wasted pick by that point youre just basically looking at practice squad guys anyways.
Gonzalez was a fine pick especially since Forbes was off the board, I dont have any issue with White either but after that it gets really iffy. Mapu was a reach as was taking Ryland 112 overall. Theres kickers that went undrafted that are just as good as him. Its unfortunate for the kicking position but its the current reality. Most power 5 and really most college kickers have the leg strength for 50+ and even 60+ yard kicks. Its been a while since weve seen one worth really going after, they can all put it out of the endzone on kickoffs now. Punters ironically really have more value
The linemen they picked up really arent anything special. Two of the three have never had to play against elite rushers which they will have to on every down in the NFL. Mafi is okay but they didnt do anything that really improved the O line
Their 3rd and 4th round where theres still some players to be had really turns me off on what they did
The thing with all of these round draft projections is its just an arbitrary number created by some guy at some site and they're all different. (Ironically its alot like PSA grading lol)
I could point to plenty of "Draft Experts" who think that they had a good to great draft but again whatever grade I come up with as proof would be nothing more than another arbitrary grade from some guy.
As for your opinions on their picks I'll just say this, while I appreciate your response haven't we learned by now that Bill Belichick marches to a beat of a different drum when it comes to his draft process?
Again, i could find you 20 players that he drafted as reaches that eventually helped them win many SBs and had decent careers here in NE. I could also find 20 more players that he drafted in their expected draft range that were absolute flops.
It always goes both ways and you'll never really know how a drafted player will turn out until years 3-4,imo. Until then,the immediate draft grades are usually looked at by going off what your biggest team needs were heading into the draft and BB pretty much filled them all the way across the board over this past weekend.
If you just read articles that certain is how the draft projections go where most of them do just read college message boards and just report that. The issues with their draft isnt that 109 got drafted at 95 its that theres just some bad picks.
Im not a Pats fan, but I would not be happy if I was. The whole Belli does Belli stuff yea thats really easy to do when you have Brady the best QB of all time who elevates everyone around him and people come there and want to play with him just like what happened in Tampa. Brady won another SB and could still be playing today but got gun shy where he was scared to get hit and its over once that happens as a QB. The Pats have been an average team since Brady left.
Talent wise the first two picks were fine. What the issue is though picks 3 and and the first two 4s and the fact that a QB in his make or break year really didnt get any help. Mapu in the third round from Sacramento State which plays in the Big Sky which is just an awful conference. They could have gotten him much later and maybe he would even go drafted.
There were much better options that have actually played against elite players. The SEC puts by far the most players in the NFL and even most of them dont make the NFL, now a big sky player to be a LB against the best of the best in the NFL in the 3rd? The talent has spread out more in college with the transfer portal but theres no way around the fact that outside the power 5 the game really slows down. Theres a handful of non power 5 teams that do put guys in the NFL and most of them are about to join the Big 12 this year.
Then a center from Troy where maybe hes okay, but hes never faced these big time DTs either. A kicker next when several undrafted kickers are just as good and then some linemen where the real ones had already been taken. They basically spent the middle of the draft with guys that have never actually had to compete against the best in college much less the pros then finished with a risk and an average lineman at best.
Simply drafting someone for a position doesnt mean the positional need was addressed.
You didn't get the point I was trying to make,we've been hearing for years that Belli was making so many bad picks and a majority of them turned out to be legit players. in quite a few cases we're talking All-Pro level players.
Not counting this current draft and going back year by year I can give you plenty of "bad picks" on draft weekend that all turned into solid players.
2022: Cole Strange was considered a reach and he might have been one of their top 2 best Olinemen last season. I don't remember anyone thinking that Tyquan Thornton,Marcus Jones,Jack Jones or Bailey Zappe were in that reach category but each one should promise throughout the season.
2021: I don't remember hearing any complaints about reaches in this draft class but you mentioned above that you thought Mac should be considered. Mac finished 2nd in OROY of the voting,helped lead the Pats to a 10-7 record that included a 7 game win streak,where his stats were top 3 in all of football during that stretch in completion percentage & passer rating, and helped them get into the playoffs.
2020: Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche were considered bad picks when drafted and have turned into very good starters that might turn into ProBowl/AllPro level players real soon.
2019: Joejuan Williams was the only player from that year thought of as a reach going a round earlier than expected and he hasn't lived up to that 2nd round draft spot. On the flipside,N'Keal Harry was taken in the first and was considered a great pick who had played against elite competition. He turned out to be a bust for this team.
2018: The only complaint from this draft that I remember was drafting Sony Michel in the first. Not really a reach but that BB took a RB in the first. Michel played a huge role during NE's last SB run here. Isaia Wynnwas drafted with their 1st,played against elite competition and has pretty much been a bust here.
2017: Due to trades that BB made for Brandin Cooks & Kony Ealy they didn't pick until the 3rd round. I don't remember any complaints with those later picks. This was one of their smallest draft classes in awhile due to BB trading picks for established players to help win a SB during that 4 SB appearances in 5 years stretch.
2016: Taking Joe Thuney in the 3rd was considered a reach when he was expected to go around rounds 4-5. He's made multiple AllPro teams and started 3 SB winners. NE had to forfeit their 1st for deflategate and no one after Thuney was really considered a reach. Cyus Jones,who was taken with their 2nd and played against elite competition ended up being a bust.
2015: there were quite a few in this draft cosidered reaches. Jordan Richard,Geneo Grissom,Shaq Mason & Joe Cardona. the first two were pretty much busts, Mason turned into a solid starter on multiple SB winners and Cardona has been NE's long snapper since getting drafted. A gripe could be made for drafting a log snapper but the guy has done his job admirably since taking over.
2014: The reaches were Bryan Stork,James White & Cam Fleming. Stork started the majority of games his rookie year including the SB and was gone after his second season. White was an absolute great pick in the end and Cam Fleming helped win 2 SBs. Dominique Easley was their 1st round pick who played against elite competition and was a bust in the NFL.
2013: Duron Harmon was considered the reach and ended up being a solid pick that helped win multiple SBs. Aaron Dobson was their 2nd rounder who played against very good competition and a was a bust. As was Josh Boyce another guy from a big program that ended up a bust.
2012:Tavon WIlson & Nate Ebner were the reaches in this draft class. Wilson was pretty much a bust while Ebner was a core S/Ter that helped win 3 SBs and made an AllPro team.
2011: Shane Vereen was the reach and played a key role as Brady's 3rd down RB while helping to win a SB. Ras I-Dowling was their 2nd that played against elite competition and was a bust.
2010: Didn't really have a reach in this class with McCourty,Gronk,Brandon Spikes,Aaron Hernandez. That year it was all big program players.
2009: Sebastian Vollmer was the reach, he was a full time starter,helped win two SBs and made an AllPro team.
2008: No reaches but Terrence Wheatley (2nd) & Shawn Crable (3rd) were big program players that ended up busts.
In the years before 2008 the only player really thought of as a reach was Logan Mankins with a 1st in 2005 that turned out to be a great pick. I could give you many names like Chad Jackson,Laurence Maroney,David Thomas,Gus Scott & Dexter Reid who all played for big programs and were either a bust or had a pretty MEH overall NFL career.
You seem to not like any of these middle Olinemen that BB drafted when he has a very good history of turning players that were thought of as reaches who weren't any good or late round picks that would be average at best who all ended up playing major roles in helping to win/get to SBs.
I'm sure if we played monday morning QB and looked at each individual spot where all of these players were drafted you could pick out many other players that would have been considered better than each player below yet they all worked out well for NE.
Logan Mankins,Sebastain Vollmer,Shaq Mason,Marcus Cannon,Michael Onwenu,Bryan Stork,Cam Fleming,Joe Thuney,Dan Stevenson,Dan Koppen,Dave Andrews UDFA,Ted Larsen.
If you can say one thing that NE does well is develop offensive linemen from the later rounds.
@erikthredd said:
You didn't get the point I was trying to make,we've been hearing for years that Belli was making so many bad picks and a majority of them turned out to be legit players. in quite a few cases we're talking All-Pro level players.
Not counting this current draft and going back year by year I can give you plenty of "bad picks" on draft weekend that all turned into solid players.
2022: Cole Strange was considered a reach and he might have been one of their top 2 best Olinemen last season. I don't remember anyone thinking that Tyquan Thornton,Marcus Jones,Jack Jones or Bailey Zappe were in that reach category but each one should promise throughout the season.
2021: I don't remember hearing any complaints about reaches in this draft class but you mentioned above that you thought Mac should be considered. Mac finished 2nd in OROY of the voting,helped lead the Pats to a 10-7 record that included a 7 game win streak,where his stats were top 3 in all of football during that stretch in completion percentage & passer rating, and helped them get into the playoffs.
2020: Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche were considered bad picks when drafted and have turned into very good starters that might turn into ProBowl/AllPro level players real soon.
2019: Joejuan Williams was the only player from that year thought of as a reach going a round earlier than expected and he hasn't lived up to that 2nd round draft spot. On the flipside,N'Keal Harry was taken in the first and was considered a great pick who had played against elite competition. He turned out to be a bust for this team.
2018: The only complaint from this draft that I remember was drafting Sony Michel in the first. Not really a reach but that BB took a RB in the first. Michel played a huge role during NE's last SB run here. Isaia Wynnwas drafted with their 1st,played against elite competition and has pretty much been a bust here.
2017: Due to trades that BB made for Brandin Cooks & Kony Ealy they didn't pick until the 3rd round. I don't remember any complaints with those later picks. This was one of their smallest draft classes in awhile due to BB trading picks for established players to help win a SB during that 4 SB appearances in 5 years stretch.
2016: Taking Joe Thuney in the 3rd was considered a reach when he was expected to go around rounds 4-5. He's made multiple AllPro teams and started 3 SB winners. NE had to forfeit their 1st for deflategate and no one after Thuney was really considered a reach. Cyus Jones,who was taken with their 2nd and played against elite competition ended up being a bust.
2015: there were quite a few in this draft cosidered reaches. Jordan Richard,Geneo Grissom,Shaq Mason & Joe Cardona. the first two were pretty much busts, Mason turned into a solid starter on multiple SB winners and Cardona has been NE's long snapper since getting drafted. A gripe could be made for drafting a log snapper but the guy has done his job admirably since taking over.
2014: The reaches were Bryan Stork,James White & Cam Fleming. Stork started the majority of games his rookie year including the SB and was gone after his second season. White was an absolute great pick in the end and Cam Fleming helped win 2 SBs. Dominique Easley was their 1st round pick who played against elite competition and was a bust in the NFL.
2013: Duron Harmon was considered the reach and ended up being a solid pick that helped win multiple SBs. Aaron Dobson was their 2nd rounder who played against very good competition and a was a bust. As was Josh Boyce another guy from a big program that ended up a bust.
2012:Tavon WIlson & Nate Ebner were the reaches in this draft class. Wilson was pretty much a bust while Ebner was a core S/Ter that helped win 3 SBs and made an AllPro team.
2011: Shane Vereen was the reach and played a key role as Brady's 3rd down RB while helping to win a SB. Ras I-Dowling was their 2nd that played against elite competition and was a bust.
2010: Didn't really have a reach in this class with McCourty,Gronk,Brandon Spikes,Aaron Hernandez. That year it was all big program players.
2009: Sebastian Vollmer was the reach, he was a full time starter,helped win two SBs and made an AllPro team.
2008: No reaches but Terrence Wheatley (2nd) & Shawn Crable (3rd) were big program players that ended up busts.
In the years before 2008 the only player really thought of as a reach was Logan Mankins with a 1st in 2005 that turned out to be a great pick. I could give you many names like Chad Jackson,Laurence Maroney,David Thomas,Gus Scott & Dexter Reid who all played for big programs and were either a bust or had a pretty MEH overall NFL career.
You seem to not like any of these middle Olinemen that BB drafted when he has a very good history of turning players that were thought of as reaches who weren't any good or late round picks that would be average at best who all ended up playing major roles in helping to win/get to SBs.
I'm sure if we played monday morning QB and looked at each individual spot where all of these players were drafted you could pick out many other players that would have been considered better than each player below yet they all worked out well for NE.
Logan Mankins,Sebastain Vollmer,Shaq Mason,Marcus Cannon,Michael Onwenu,Bryan Stork,Cam Fleming,Joe Thuney,Dan Stevenson,Dan Koppen,Dave Andrews UDFA,Ted Larsen.
If you can say one thing that NE does well is develop offensive linemen from the later rounds.
The Pats were 8-9 last season, if you take a first round linemen in Strange and he only might have been one of their two best its a terrible pick unless you have pro bowlers all over the line. If he wants to draft everyone from no name conferences with reaches while other teams pick studs thats certainly the teams choice.
Again wipe out anything that included Brady on the team. Its been clear Brady allowed them to be cute just like Green Bay was allowed to be cute during Rodgers prime and the Saints were great during Breese etc. When you have a HOF QB its much harder to mess something up than it is to be a genius. They also had the luxury of being in a really bad division for years.
The Dolphins, Jets and Bills had been a joke for about a decade. 2019 was the Bills first double digit win season in a decade, over the last 20 years the Dolphins have had 3, the Jets havent had one since 2015. They're all better teams now than what they had been and theres no more Brady to cover for everything
While Jones shouldnt have been a first round QB and good for him getting that money, I do feel bad for him with whats coming on the line. If they run into a team like Philly that line is going to get eaten alive and they arent the only team that can do it. Jones better get real quick getting rid of the ball to who knows what in all honesty. Hes in a make or break year as QBs get 3 to 4 years max and he was bad last year and they didnt really do anything to help him this year.
@erikthredd said:
You didn't get the point I was trying to make,we've been hearing for years that Belli was making so many bad picks and a majority of them turned out to be legit players. in quite a few cases we're talking All-Pro level players.
Not counting this current draft and going back year by year I can give you plenty of "bad picks" on draft weekend that all turned into solid players.
2022: Cole Strange was considered a reach and he might have been one of their top 2 best Olinemen last season. I don't remember anyone thinking that Tyquan Thornton,Marcus Jones,Jack Jones or Bailey Zappe were in that reach category but each one should promise throughout the season.
2021: I don't remember hearing any complaints about reaches in this draft class but you mentioned above that you thought Mac should be considered. Mac finished 2nd in OROY of the voting,helped lead the Pats to a 10-7 record that included a 7 game win streak,where his stats were top 3 in all of football during that stretch in completion percentage & passer rating, and helped them get into the playoffs.
2020: Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche were considered bad picks when drafted and have turned into very good starters that might turn into ProBowl/AllPro level players real soon.
2019: Joejuan Williams was the only player from that year thought of as a reach going a round earlier than expected and he hasn't lived up to that 2nd round draft spot. On the flipside,N'Keal Harry was taken in the first and was considered a great pick who had played against elite competition. He turned out to be a bust for this team.
2018: The only complaint from this draft that I remember was drafting Sony Michel in the first. Not really a reach but that BB took a RB in the first. Michel played a huge role during NE's last SB run here. Isaia Wynnwas drafted with their 1st,played against elite competition and has pretty much been a bust here.
2017: Due to trades that BB made for Brandin Cooks & Kony Ealy they didn't pick until the 3rd round. I don't remember any complaints with those later picks. This was one of their smallest draft classes in awhile due to BB trading picks for established players to help win a SB during that 4 SB appearances in 5 years stretch.
2016: Taking Joe Thuney in the 3rd was considered a reach when he was expected to go around rounds 4-5. He's made multiple AllPro teams and started 3 SB winners. NE had to forfeit their 1st for deflategate and no one after Thuney was really considered a reach. Cyus Jones,who was taken with their 2nd and played against elite competition ended up being a bust.
2015: there were quite a few in this draft cosidered reaches. Jordan Richard,Geneo Grissom,Shaq Mason & Joe Cardona. the first two were pretty much busts, Mason turned into a solid starter on multiple SB winners and Cardona has been NE's long snapper since getting drafted. A gripe could be made for drafting a log snapper but the guy has done his job admirably since taking over.
2014: The reaches were Bryan Stork,James White & Cam Fleming. Stork started the majority of games his rookie year including the SB and was gone after his second season. White was an absolute great pick in the end and Cam Fleming helped win 2 SBs. Dominique Easley was their 1st round pick who played against elite competition and was a bust in the NFL.
2013: Duron Harmon was considered the reach and ended up being a solid pick that helped win multiple SBs. Aaron Dobson was their 2nd rounder who played against very good competition and a was a bust. As was Josh Boyce another guy from a big program that ended up a bust.
2012:Tavon WIlson & Nate Ebner were the reaches in this draft class. Wilson was pretty much a bust while Ebner was a core S/Ter that helped win 3 SBs and made an AllPro team.
2011: Shane Vereen was the reach and played a key role as Brady's 3rd down RB while helping to win a SB. Ras I-Dowling was their 2nd that played against elite competition and was a bust.
2010: Didn't really have a reach in this class with McCourty,Gronk,Brandon Spikes,Aaron Hernandez. That year it was all big program players.
2009: Sebastian Vollmer was the reach, he was a full time starter,helped win two SBs and made an AllPro team.
2008: No reaches but Terrence Wheatley (2nd) & Shawn Crable (3rd) were big program players that ended up busts.
In the years before 2008 the only player really thought of as a reach was Logan Mankins with a 1st in 2005 that turned out to be a great pick. I could give you many names like Chad Jackson,Laurence Maroney,David Thomas,Gus Scott & Dexter Reid who all played for big programs and were either a bust or had a pretty MEH overall NFL career.
You seem to not like any of these middle Olinemen that BB drafted when he has a very good history of turning players that were thought of as reaches who weren't any good or late round picks that would be average at best who all ended up playing major roles in helping to win/get to SBs.
I'm sure if we played monday morning QB and looked at each individual spot where all of these players were drafted you could pick out many other players that would have been considered better than each player below yet they all worked out well for NE.
Logan Mankins,Sebastain Vollmer,Shaq Mason,Marcus Cannon,Michael Onwenu,Bryan Stork,Cam Fleming,Joe Thuney,Dan Stevenson,Dan Koppen,Dave Andrews UDFA,Ted Larsen.
If you can say one thing that NE does well is develop offensive linemen from the later rounds.
The Pats were 8-9 last season, if you take a first round linemen in Strange and he only might have been one of their two best its a terrible pick unless you have pro bowlers all over the line. If he wants to draft everyone from no name conferences with reaches while other teams pick studs thats certainly the teams choice.
Again wipe out anything that included Brady on the team. Its been clear Brady allowed them to be cute just like Green Bay was allowed to be cute during Rodgers prime and the Saints were great during Breese etc. When you have a HOF QB its much harder to mess something up than it is to be a genius. They also had the luxury of being in a really bad division for years.
The Dolphins, Jets and Bills had been a joke for about a decade. 2019 was the Bills first double digit win season in a decade, over the last 20 years the Dolphins have had 3, the Jets havent had one since 2015. They're all better teams now than what they had been and theres no more Brady to cover for everything
While Jones shouldnt have been a first round QB and good for him getting that money, I do feel bad for him with whats coming on the line. If they run into a team like Philly that line is going to get eaten alive and they arent the only team that can do it. Jones better get real quick getting rid of the ball to who knows what in all honesty. Hes in a make or break year as QBs get 3 to 4 years max and he was bad last year and they didnt really do anything to help him this year.
For the first bolded line,the OL play was bad because they got hit with so many injuries at one point early in the season they literally had to drag one FA OLinemen off the streets and throwing him into the game for heavy snap counts a day or two later. Strange still played well for a rookie. You obviously weren't watching their games because you wouldn't be arguing this point with me if you had.
For the second one, so in your eyes every single play made by anyone not named Brady was all due to Tom Brady,gotcha. Every tackle that made a block,every CB that had an interception,every LB that had a sack,that 6th round S/T guy downed the kick returner back at the 4yd line....All Brady.
Even the biggest Brady honks on this forum,including myself, have never thought that but thanks for making it clear here. Prolonging this debate with you just seems pointless now.
@erikthredd said:
You didn't get the point I was trying to make,we've been hearing for years that Belli was making so many bad picks and a majority of them turned out to be legit players. in quite a few cases we're talking All-Pro level players.
Not counting this current draft and going back year by year I can give you plenty of "bad picks" on draft weekend that all turned into solid players.
2022: Cole Strange was considered a reach and he might have been one of their top 2 best Olinemen last season. I don't remember anyone thinking that Tyquan Thornton,Marcus Jones,Jack Jones or Bailey Zappe were in that reach category but each one should promise throughout the season.
2021: I don't remember hearing any complaints about reaches in this draft class but you mentioned above that you thought Mac should be considered. Mac finished 2nd in OROY of the voting,helped lead the Pats to a 10-7 record that included a 7 game win streak,where his stats were top 3 in all of football during that stretch in completion percentage & passer rating, and helped them get into the playoffs.
2020: Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche were considered bad picks when drafted and have turned into very good starters that might turn into ProBowl/AllPro level players real soon.
2019: Joejuan Williams was the only player from that year thought of as a reach going a round earlier than expected and he hasn't lived up to that 2nd round draft spot. On the flipside,N'Keal Harry was taken in the first and was considered a great pick who had played against elite competition. He turned out to be a bust for this team.
2018: The only complaint from this draft that I remember was drafting Sony Michel in the first. Not really a reach but that BB took a RB in the first. Michel played a huge role during NE's last SB run here. Isaia Wynnwas drafted with their 1st,played against elite competition and has pretty much been a bust here.
2017: Due to trades that BB made for Brandin Cooks & Kony Ealy they didn't pick until the 3rd round. I don't remember any complaints with those later picks. This was one of their smallest draft classes in awhile due to BB trading picks for established players to help win a SB during that 4 SB appearances in 5 years stretch.
2016: Taking Joe Thuney in the 3rd was considered a reach when he was expected to go around rounds 4-5. He's made multiple AllPro teams and started 3 SB winners. NE had to forfeit their 1st for deflategate and no one after Thuney was really considered a reach. Cyus Jones,who was taken with their 2nd and played against elite competition ended up being a bust.
2015: there were quite a few in this draft cosidered reaches. Jordan Richard,Geneo Grissom,Shaq Mason & Joe Cardona. the first two were pretty much busts, Mason turned into a solid starter on multiple SB winners and Cardona has been NE's long snapper since getting drafted. A gripe could be made for drafting a log snapper but the guy has done his job admirably since taking over.
2014: The reaches were Bryan Stork,James White & Cam Fleming. Stork started the majority of games his rookie year including the SB and was gone after his second season. White was an absolute great pick in the end and Cam Fleming helped win 2 SBs. Dominique Easley was their 1st round pick who played against elite competition and was a bust in the NFL.
2013: Duron Harmon was considered the reach and ended up being a solid pick that helped win multiple SBs. Aaron Dobson was their 2nd rounder who played against very good competition and a was a bust. As was Josh Boyce another guy from a big program that ended up a bust.
2012:Tavon WIlson & Nate Ebner were the reaches in this draft class. Wilson was pretty much a bust while Ebner was a core S/Ter that helped win 3 SBs and made an AllPro team.
2011: Shane Vereen was the reach and played a key role as Brady's 3rd down RB while helping to win a SB. Ras I-Dowling was their 2nd that played against elite competition and was a bust.
2010: Didn't really have a reach in this class with McCourty,Gronk,Brandon Spikes,Aaron Hernandez. That year it was all big program players.
2009: Sebastian Vollmer was the reach, he was a full time starter,helped win two SBs and made an AllPro team.
2008: No reaches but Terrence Wheatley (2nd) & Shawn Crable (3rd) were big program players that ended up busts.
In the years before 2008 the only player really thought of as a reach was Logan Mankins with a 1st in 2005 that turned out to be a great pick. I could give you many names like Chad Jackson,Laurence Maroney,David Thomas,Gus Scott & Dexter Reid who all played for big programs and were either a bust or had a pretty MEH overall NFL career.
You seem to not like any of these middle Olinemen that BB drafted when he has a very good history of turning players that were thought of as reaches who weren't any good or late round picks that would be average at best who all ended up playing major roles in helping to win/get to SBs.
I'm sure if we played monday morning QB and looked at each individual spot where all of these players were drafted you could pick out many other players that would have been considered better than each player below yet they all worked out well for NE.
Logan Mankins,Sebastain Vollmer,Shaq Mason,Marcus Cannon,Michael Onwenu,Bryan Stork,Cam Fleming,Joe Thuney,Dan Stevenson,Dan Koppen,Dave Andrews UDFA,Ted Larsen.
If you can say one thing that NE does well is develop offensive linemen from the later rounds.
The Pats were 8-9 last season, if you take a first round linemen in Strange and he only might have been one of their two best its a terrible pick unless you have pro bowlers all over the line. If he wants to draft everyone from no name conferences with reaches while other teams pick studs thats certainly the teams choice.
Again wipe out anything that included Brady on the team. Its been clear Brady allowed them to be cute just like Green Bay was allowed to be cute during Rodgers prime and the Saints were great during Breese etc. When you have a HOF QB its much harder to mess something up than it is to be a genius. They also had the luxury of being in a really bad division for years.
The Dolphins, Jets and Bills had been a joke for about a decade. 2019 was the Bills first double digit win season in a decade, over the last 20 years the Dolphins have had 3, the Jets havent had one since 2015. They're all better teams now than what they had been and theres no more Brady to cover for everything
While Jones shouldnt have been a first round QB and good for him getting that money, I do feel bad for him with whats coming on the line. If they run into a team like Philly that line is going to get eaten alive and they arent the only team that can do it. Jones better get real quick getting rid of the ball to who knows what in all honesty. Hes in a make or break year as QBs get 3 to 4 years max and he was bad last year and they didnt really do anything to help him this year.
For the first bolded line,the OL play was bad because they got hit with so many injuries at one point early in the season they literally had to drag one FA OLinemen off the streets and throwing him into the game for heavy snap counts a day or two later. Strange still played well for a rookie. You obviously weren't watching their games because you wouldn't be arguing this point with me if you had.
For the second one, so in your eyes every single play made by anyone not named Brady was all due to Tom Brady,gotcha. Every tackle that made a block,every CB that had an interception,every LB that had a sack,that 6th round S/T guy downed the kick returner back at the 4yd line....All Brady.
Even the biggest Brady honks on this forum,including myself, have never thought that but thanks for making it clear here. Prolonging this debate with you just seems pointless now.
Im not sure why you seem to be getting upset. There is no denying that Brady made every player on the offense better. You could plug and play guys and his ability to read defenses yes did improve the offensive line play and his ability to spread the ball around allowed them to not have to worry about drafting big time offensive weapons. The same thing happened in GB with Rogers, Brady was obviously much better but its an undeniable fact that having an elite HOF qb improves everyone around them offensively with not only their physical ability but their ability to read defenses.
Belli isnt some super genius thats smarter than everyone else though video taping other teams practices seemed to help. Brady has won elsewhere, Belli has not. Its much harder to coach and make these cute picks when you dont have the best QB of all time on your roster.
Strange spent 6 years at Tennessee Chattanooga in the Southern conference. There isnt a single good football team in that conference. Chattanooga was a run heavy team and he has significant issues with footwork especially when it comes to pass protection. If he has to be a starter hes basically being asked to learn to pass block at the NFL level. Hes a solid depth guy but if hes starting or even considered the best Olineman theres issues. He played in a no name conference for 6 years for a reason.
Someone being critical of players or decisions isnt a reason to get upset. I would rather every player with few expectations be successful and get a ton of money. It doesnt change the fact though that NFL teams simply arent going to be successful loading up on players from horrible conferences or using high picks on kickers
@Basebal21 Not getting upset at all,its just when you take the conversation down a stupid path it makes no sense continuing on with you. First it was all due to Brady and now slipping Belli's videotaping as a suttle shot. Nice. You can keep going on homie but I'm done.
Lol. Im not the one who took it down an emotional path where I somehow said everything was because of Brady. Its a fact Brady had more success than Belli since they parted ways. Its a fact Brady elevated the players around him on the offense throughout his career. Its also a fact Bellicheck did cheat.
Theres always been the debate of who was more responsible for their success Brady or Beli and the answer is very clearly Brady. Belli has to win a SB to get back into the conversation and spending high round draft picks on players from Sacramento state and a kicker isnt going to win a SB
@Basebal21 said:
Lol. Im not the one who took it down an emotional path where I somehow said everything was because of Brady. Its a fact Brady had more success than Belli since they parted ways. Its a fact Brady elevated the players around him on the offense throughout his career. Its also a fact Bellicheck did cheat.
Theres always been the debate of who was more responsible for their success Brady or Beli and the answer is very clearly Brady. Belli has to win a SB to get back into the conversation and spending high round draft picks on players from Sacramento state and a kicker isnt going to win a SB
Those two topics have been argued here ad nauseum and you're years late to that party. Honestly no one cares anymore about rehashing it all again,I certainly don't.
As for BB's picks, we'll see how they workout this season and in the coming seasons after that. We disagree on who were reaches and if that really matters in any event so I'm just leaving it at that.
@Basebal21 said:
Lol. Im not the one who took it down an emotional path where I somehow said everything was because of Brady. Its a fact Brady had more success than Belli since they parted ways. Its a fact Brady elevated the players around him on the offense throughout his career. Its also a fact Bellicheck did cheat.
Theres always been the debate of who was more responsible for their success Brady or Beli and the answer is very clearly Brady. Belli has to win a SB to get back into the conversation and spending high round draft picks on players from Sacramento state and a kicker isnt going to win a SB
Those two topics have been argued here ad nauseum and you're years late to that party. Honestly no one cares anymore about rehashing it all again,I certainly don't.
As for BB's picks, we'll see how they workout this season and in the coming seasons after that. We disagree on who were reaches and if that really matters in any event so I'm just leaving it at that.
Fair enough not to want to debate it, I only brought it up because it does have relevancy in terms of discussing draft picks. If a coach is winning it all or getting to the SB every year then yea you have to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if they arent its a relevant criticism that is applicable when they are doing something way out of the box and people are just supposed to trust it will work.
Out of 259 picks 44 were none power 5 players. Notre Dame is a power caliber program that chooses to stay independent and BYU/Cincinnati who each had 3 are in the Big 12 now so I didnt count them. NE took almost 10 percent of those players and more than one of them was the only player selected from that conference period. The 7th round JSU guy doesnt really matter its the 7th round, but the 3rd round was the big one and being one of 3 teams to draft a kicker and doing so when there was still some good players on the board deserves to be questioned/criticized. The idea of he can do no wrong and if smarter than everyone is gone by now for football fans, should be for Pats fans as well
@Basebal21 said:
Lol. Im not the one who took it down an emotional path where I somehow said everything was because of Brady. Its a fact Brady had more success than Belli since they parted ways. Its a fact Brady elevated the players around him on the offense throughout his career. Its also a fact Bellicheck did cheat.
Theres always been the debate of who was more responsible for their success Brady or Beli and the answer is very clearly Brady. Belli has to win a SB to get back into the conversation and spending high round draft picks on players from Sacramento state and a kicker isnt going to win a SB
Those two topics have been argued here ad nauseum and you're years late to that party. Honestly no one cares anymore about rehashing it all again,I certainly don't.
As for BB's picks, we'll see how they workout this season and in the coming seasons after that. We disagree on who were reaches and if that really matters in any event so I'm just leaving it at that.
Fair enough not to want to debate it, I only brought it up because it does have relevancy in terms of discussing draft picks. If a coach is winning it all or getting to the SB every year then yea you have to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if they arent its a relevant criticism that is applicable when they are doing something way out of the box and people are just supposed to trust it will work.
Out of 259 picks 44 were none power 5 players. Notre Dame is a power caliber program that chooses to stay independent and BYU/Cincinnati who each had 3 are in the Big 12 now so I didnt count them. NE took almost 10 percent of those players and more than one of them was the only player selected from that conference period. The 7th round JSU guy doesnt really matter its the 7th round, but the 3rd round was the big one and being one of 3 teams to draft a kicker and doing so when there was still some good players on the board deserves to be questioned/criticized. The idea of he can do no wrong and if smarter than everyone is gone by now for football fans, should be for Pats fans as well
The thing is though,like I previously mentioned,Bill has always done his own thing compared to everyone else. Sometimes its worked ,others it hasn't but people continuing to complain about it when its been 20+ years just makes zero sense in my mind. Thats what he does so its better to just deal with it than typing comment after comment crying about it.
The picks slots don't matter anymore after the draft and the only thing that does is can BB turn any of those draftees into NFL players,time will tell.
@Basebal21 said:
Lol. Im not the one who took it down an emotional path where I somehow said everything was because of Brady. Its a fact Brady had more success than Belli since they parted ways. Its a fact Brady elevated the players around him on the offense throughout his career. Its also a fact Bellicheck did cheat.
Theres always been the debate of who was more responsible for their success Brady or Beli and the answer is very clearly Brady. Belli has to win a SB to get back into the conversation and spending high round draft picks on players from Sacramento state and a kicker isnt going to win a SB
Those two topics have been argued here ad nauseum and you're years late to that party. Honestly no one cares anymore about rehashing it all again,I certainly don't.
As for BB's picks, we'll see how they workout this season and in the coming seasons after that. We disagree on who were reaches and if that really matters in any event so I'm just leaving it at that.
Fair enough not to want to debate it, I only brought it up because it does have relevancy in terms of discussing draft picks. If a coach is winning it all or getting to the SB every year then yea you have to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if they arent its a relevant criticism that is applicable when they are doing something way out of the box and people are just supposed to trust it will work.
Out of 259 picks 44 were none power 5 players. Notre Dame is a power caliber program that chooses to stay independent and BYU/Cincinnati who each had 3 are in the Big 12 now so I didnt count them. NE took almost 10 percent of those players and more than one of them was the only player selected from that conference period. The 7th round JSU guy doesnt really matter its the 7th round, but the 3rd round was the big one and being one of 3 teams to draft a kicker and doing so when there was still some good players on the board deserves to be questioned/criticized. The idea of he can do no wrong and if smarter than everyone is gone by now for football fans, should be for Pats fans as well
The thing is though,like I previously mentioned,Bill has always done his own thing compared to everyone else. Sometimes its worked ,others it hasn't but people continuing to complain about it when its been 20+ years just makes zero sense in my mind. Thats what he does so its better to just deal with it than typing comment after comment crying about it.
The picks slots don't matter anymore after the draft and the only thing that does is can BB turn any of those draftees into NFL players,time will tell.
Pick slots matter when people are grossly over drafted. They determine what you are missing out on and what you are paying them. As I mentioned though the leash for doing your own thing should be dependent on being dominate. They simply havent been for a couple years now and a Sacramento State LB isnt going to change that nor is over drafting a kicker.
I get that as a Pats fan you just have to deal with it, doesnt mean you have to be happy with continuing a losing strategy for someone trying to prove theyre smarter than everyone else. He now has the worst QB in the division for probably the first time in his career at NE and did very little to help him while spending a valuable pick on a no name and then a kicker.
@thisistheshow said:
As of now, I like us to win double digit games. Some will call that delusional.
We were an 8 win team last year, and we should show significant improvement in enough ways to add 2 more.
Even adding 2 likely just keeps it at 8. Those 2 wins from the Jets are very likely gone. Its almost impossible for Rodgers to be as bad as their QBs were last year and those were still close one score games. They also have to play the Eagles and Chiefs, Chargers arent exactly a pushover either but generally find a way to lose.
Theres rumors the Pats will lose a home game that will be played in Germany as well
@thisistheshow said:
As of now, I like us to win double digit games. Some will call that delusional.
We were an 8 win team last year, and we should show significant improvement in enough ways to add 2 more.
Even adding 2 likely just keeps it at 8. Those 2 wins from the Jets are very likely gone. Its almost impossible for Rodgers to be as bad as their QBs were last year and those were still close one score games. They also have to play the Eagles and Chiefs, Chargers arent exactly a pushover either but generally find a way to lose.
Theres rumors the Pats will lose a home game that will be played in Germany as well
...
Your lack of belief in the Patriots is just going to make this upcoming season all the sweeter!
@thisistheshow said:
As of now, I like us to win double digit games. Some will call that delusional.
We were an 8 win team last year, and we should show significant improvement in enough ways to add 2 more.
Even adding 2 likely just keeps it at 8. Those 2 wins from the Jets are very likely gone. Its almost impossible for Rodgers to be as bad as their QBs were last year and those were still close one score games. They also have to play the Eagles and Chiefs, Chargers arent exactly a pushover either but generally find a way to lose.
Theres rumors the Pats will lose a home game that will be played in Germany as well
...
Your lack of belief in the Patriots is just going to make this upcoming season all the sweeter!
And youll be more than welcome to say I told you so if they pull off the impossible. I have them finishing 4th now that the Jets have a real QB that just has to be average and will likely be better than that. Maybe 3rd since I dont really believe in Tuas ability to play a full season and the Dolphins are a different team when hes hurt.
Even if they get the German game that can be a whatever since both teams have to travel there, but theres no way around the fact that KC and Philly both being on the schedule is an issue. Steelers arent what they once were but having to go there is hardly ideal as well.
Short of everyone else getting a ton of injuries I dont see anyway they could win the division
Comments
Eric
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Our 2nd rounder is Georgia Tech EDGE Keion White.
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/keion-white/32005748-4931-5646-3479-7fead8c7f5a8
Eric
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Hooker just went to the Lions in the 3rd which could be a big steal for them. Duggan and Bennett will likely have nice careers as backups, but Hooker was the last one that had starting potential and upside.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
.......
Yup, my gut is probably off here at this point.
Again I'm glad they didn't do any nonsense trades, this years draft is weak.
Do you mean our picks? I wouldn't agree with that at all. NFLN had Gonzalez & White as the 2nd best value picks on day 1 and day 2.
Gonzalez https://www.nfl.com/news/2023-nfl-draft-day-1-s-top-value-picks
White https://www.nfl.com/news/2023-nfl-draft-day-2-s-top-value-picks
As for the picks after them we won't know if they're good or not until they actually play. Pats fans are freaking out today because we're not picking "names" that they know so that automatically means these guys can't play. In most of the previous picks like this over the years BB turned them into decent contributors,imo.
Eric
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I like what we did today in the draft thus far, but there is going to be a ton of pushback from sports radio.
I'm making the choice to like it. Here's why.
Yes, we went defense early even though it is offense, and specifically O-line that needs work. But we got good players, and I feel like with the defense we had plus this we can be top 3 defense in the league.
Then we addressed offensive line with two picks. Ok. They did it. Finally. We needed that.
And sandwiched between those two Oline picks is a Belichick special. It gives us a lot to talk about. He moved up to take a kicker. Classic BB.
We got the entire samplers platter. Lol
You know football season is just around the corner when its time for Bill Belichick to disappoint half of NE with his choice of draft picks lol. 😎😎😎
Eric
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I like this draft. It's got everything. Plenty to like, I'm hopeful, and plenty for the radio guys to banter about.
I'm digging it to and we just grabbed a 2nd WR.
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/demario-douglas/3200444f-5525-9552-5dc9-fda7c5a9b03d
We came into this draft with holes at OL,CB,WR,P (and Kicker if you didn't want to see another season of Folk getting older) and BB filled them all.
Eric
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Boutte is an absolute diva so Im not sure how well he will fit in there. He would give up on games if he wasnt getting the ball enough and it was usually pretty easy to tell when plays werent designed for him. That said he is an absolute stud and a first round talent who was an all american that just never tried enough to reach his full potential which is why he fell so far in the draft.
If they can get his attitude in line hes a steal, if not he and Belli arent going to get along at all
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Maybe spending some time with our WR coach Troy Brown will give the kid a taste of some humble pie. I'd rather see them take a chance on someone like this over a WR expected to go in the 6th-7th round whose a longshot to make the team anyways.
Saw this posted elsewhere not to long after the pick:
https://www.nola.com/sports/lsu/how-lsu-wr-kayshon-boutte-fell-from-first-round-pick/article_14a18e54-e461-11ed-8247-8b12099c6f0c.amp.html
Eric
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Maybe, its an interesting landing spot for sure. Two different coaching staffs had issues with him at LSU. The first game Jayden Daniels got there against FSU Boutte basically got unofficially benched for throwing a temper tantrum and giving up on the game because Daniels was spreading the ball to much. There was more than one incompeltion to him where he gave up on the route as well thinking the ball wasnt coming his way or just being vindictive. You want your WRs to want the ball, but you dont want them giving up when they dont get it.
To be honest and LSU would never admit this but I think they may have told him they didnt want back. Before their bowl game he announced he was returning for next year then a couple days before the game all of a sudden he had declared for the draft.
I like the idea of using a 5th round pick on him since the upside is there, I dont really like the fit in NE though. Theres a young QB, no veteran stud WRs, Belli usually has a low tolerance for things etc. I think he really needed to go somewhere with a veteran respected QB, preferably a big time WR already to keep him in line. Hes going to be a handful for Jones, but I guess maybe Jones goes back to his college ways and just tries to throw him the ball every play like he did with Devonta Smith at Bama
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
I guess on the plus side,there's no clear cut #1 WR here and the one guy that was Mac's go-to for the past two seasons is now playing for the Raiders in Jakobi Meyers. He'll get as good of a chance to become the new favorite as anyone else gets.
Belichick drafted him so I think that any attitude issues the kid might have has to to be known already so it really shouldn't be a worry. He also grabbed a slot WR with a later pick too.
Eric
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Let the drama begin!
Eric
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Yea the issues werent any secret. Its worth the shot at that point. I'm surprised someone didnt take him in the 5th or that he got that far into the 6th. By the 5th round youre basically drafting backups at best and most practice squad guys, if you waste one of those picks on a high upside risk it doesnt really matter.
Cunningham really doesnt matter. He probably wouldnt win the job anyways since hes a runner that can also throw a little but his passing stats were just not good at Louisville. They should have drafted someone if theyre thinking Cunningham is the answer which I doubt they are
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
That was entirely sarcasm lol.
Eric
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Lol who really knows at this point. I would have thought someone saying Mac Jones was getting drafted 15th over all was as well but it happened. Green Bay took a backup player 13th overall this year. Stranger things have happened lol
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Are you a Pats or Packers fan? Some other team?
Eric
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BB must really like this kid to give him him this much money.
The Patriots gave Cunningham a contract that includes $200,000 in total guarantees and a $30,000 signing bonus, according to a source. That’s the most guaranteed money the Patriots have ever given out to an undrafted free agent. It’s more guaranteed money than most 2022 sixth-round picks received last season, though it is a lower signing bonus.
https://atozsports.com/new-england/patriots-guaranteed-new-quarterback-a-record-setting-amount-of-money/
Eric
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I'm not sure how this signing fits in. I could throw out multiple theories, but...
Many Pats fans wanted Lamar Jackson so Belichick brought in the generic version of him. 😉
Eric
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If I had to guess, and project, they are going to try to duplicate what they did with Edelman.
That would be interesting,I saw someone else mention doing the same with Marcus Jones. I'm all for it if it means adding another weapon to the offense.
They've added an UDFA TE Johnny Lumpkins out of Louisiana,from what I've read he's mostly a blocker which is still needed.
Also PFF put out their draft grades for each team,here are each AFCE team's grades...
Pats A-
Bills A
Jets B-
Fins B-
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2023-nfl-draft-grades-for-all-32-teams#NE
Eric
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Neither. Big time college football fan. Used to like the Chargers before they moved and just keep drafting soft defensive players for the most part. Fan of the sport
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Other than having 12 picks in 7 rounds A- is a hard grade to conclude too. Theres several reach picks in there including a third rounder which should still have value
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
I think the majority of opinions that I've read so far have mostly thought it was a solid draft for a couple reasons.
1) he filled all of the holes the team he had going into the draft. We needed a starting caliber CB plus secondary depth and he came away with Gonzalez plus 2 other DBs & a LB/S. When you think about the Jets adding Arod and BB not really signing any FA defensive players (mainly because they didn't lose anyone other than Mccourty to retirement) it made sense to boost the pass defense when you also add in White.
They needed more OL depth and between free agency and the draft they've brought in at least 5 new linemen into their rotation. They needed a WR and drafted two. Punter & Kicker (due to Nick Folk's age) were also a need.
2) the few players that were considered reaches might have been evened out by picks like Gonzalez,White & Boute all falling lower than their projected prick range based on their pre draft overall rankings.
Its honestly pretty hilarious reading comments from other Pats fans every draft weekend where they're losing their minds because BB picked player X a round or two before they were projected to go. We've seen Bill turn many of these reaches into solid contributiing players,some who actually helped the team win multiple SBs Just a few years back I remember all of the complaints about NE drafting Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche both in the 2nd and they turned out to be great picks.
Eric
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Again, I feel great about it.
Here's what I want...
BB should make it seem like he's on board with Mac as our QB. If we are sticking with Mac, let's be all in.
Now that BOB is back as OC, BB should be able to go back to the defensive side. Not that he technically left, but we know what happened. We have a chance to really make this into an elite, stout defense.
Clean things up. We've been sloppy and undisciplined in ways that were out of character. I don't want to have the whole debate here about was the Patriot way actually the...let's get back to basics. It is harder to get buy in from these guys when we aren't winning. Players used to just get in line and get their acts together in hope of a ring. Those days are gone. We need to find a way to make things right again.
Belichick has a reputation that is not user friendly for players, these guys would buy in to have a solid chance of winning a Suoer Bowl, those days are gone and nobody wants to come here and deal with Camp Belichick.
If I was a player I'd tell my agent that I will go anywhere but New England, the discipline is rough and the chances of you having the game of your life one week and then getting cut the next week are there.
Solid and and A- are very different though. I would say it was okay at best. We can leave Boutte out of the conversation, he was worth the risk. Maybe he addressed the need maybe its a wasted pick by that point youre just basically looking at practice squad guys anyways.
Gonzalez was a fine pick especially since Forbes was off the board, I dont have any issue with White either but after that it gets really iffy. Mapu was a reach as was taking Ryland 112 overall. Theres kickers that went undrafted that are just as good as him. Its unfortunate for the kicking position but its the current reality. Most power 5 and really most college kickers have the leg strength for 50+ and even 60+ yard kicks. Its been a while since weve seen one worth really going after, they can all put it out of the endzone on kickoffs now. Punters ironically really have more value
The linemen they picked up really arent anything special. Two of the three have never had to play against elite rushers which they will have to on every down in the NFL. Mafi is okay but they didnt do anything that really improved the O line
Their 3rd and 4th round where theres still some players to be had really turns me off on what they did
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Thats really the elephant in the room. Brady winning again should end the who meant more Brady or Belli debate. Its fine to coach that way when youre winning, players have little to no tolerance for it on an average team
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
He actually talked about Mac a couple days back when asked about him. I'm just posting the exact quote from the guy asking Greg Bedard and Belichick because the article that I took this from goes on to being the writer's interpretation of BB's reply.
Q: Excuse the question, but I'm going to assume that we're not getting you tomorrow after the draft from what we've been told. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to -- if you wanted to -- to clarify sort of your feelings about Mac Jones. There have been some well-published reports that you were shopping him, that weren't refuted by anyone from the Patriots. And also, you know, Cam Newton, when he started in 2020, you declared him your quarterback. After you drafted Mac Jones [in 2021], you declared [Newton] your quarterback. At the league meetings, you didn't mention Mac by name. I'm just wondering how do you feel about Mac? Is he your quarterback right now? How do you view him going into year three?
A: "Yeah, well I'm not going to respond to the anonymous quotes, Greg, so."
Q: So, I mean, would you like to -- Is [Mac] your quarterback as of right now?
A: "Yeah, I mean, look, Mac's been our quarterback for two years. And as I tell the team every year, each player, each coach, we all have to reestablish and prove ourselves every year. That's what this league is. So that's for all of us. 2023 is 2023 and we'll see how '23 goes."
Q: You were very complimentary of him going into last season and the last training camp.
A: "I'm still --"
Q: Do you still view him the same way?
A: "Absolutely."
I think this would be the best that you'd get from Bill talking about ANY of his players let alone just Mac.
.
.
.
Some may think this but we've seen hundreds of players since 2000 come to NE and have BB put them in the best possible position to succeed (and in some cases even win some rings) then when they hit free agency they leave after getting a huge payday. Playing for Bill may be hard at times but it usually has a great payoff at the end.
Eric
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The thing with all of these round draft projections is its just an arbitrary number created by some guy at some site and they're all different. (Ironically its alot like PSA grading lol)
I could point to plenty of "Draft Experts" who think that they had a good to great draft but again whatever grade I come up with as proof would be nothing more than another arbitrary grade from some guy.
As for your opinions on their picks I'll just say this, while I appreciate your response haven't we learned by now that Bill Belichick marches to a beat of a different drum when it comes to his draft process?
Again, i could find you 20 players that he drafted as reaches that eventually helped them win many SBs and had decent careers here in NE. I could also find 20 more players that he drafted in their expected draft range that were absolute flops.
It always goes both ways and you'll never really know how a drafted player will turn out until years 3-4,imo. Until then,the immediate draft grades are usually looked at by going off what your biggest team needs were heading into the draft and BB pretty much filled them all the way across the board over this past weekend.
Eric
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I think that the only real gripe that there could be made about how this Pats draft class ended is that they didn't grab a day one starting tackle,someone in that Matt Light/Nate Solder mould. Even then though they could have plans to move someone like Cole Strange or Michael Onwenu outside and eventually use one of the newer additions to plug inside.
Also after listening to some of the predraft Pats podcasts,some thought that Riley Reif might be considered one of their starting tackles heading into training camp due to how much money the Pats gave him,5M w/4+ of it guaranteed.
Eric
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That gripe about not picking a for-sure starting tackle in a higher spot is definitely going to come up a lot. Especially if we get to week 6 and it is an issue. If Online isn't an issue, we're okay.
I'm on the record as saying I like the picks, particularly because it plugged so many holes while also making our best group, defense, even better.
I can understand why people would be upset with the kicker and punter picks. The kicker was considered one of only two draftable kickers, but you don't need to draft one. And as for the punter...all I'm saying is I'm fine with things, but I do hope that these two guys are actually our punter and kicker going forward. If not, the criticism will come and be warranted in those two picks. Other than that, I feel as though it was a great draft.
I am a lot more optimistic about the upcoming season after how everything has played out with free agency, coaches, and the draft.
If you just read articles that certain is how the draft projections go where most of them do just read college message boards and just report that. The issues with their draft isnt that 109 got drafted at 95 its that theres just some bad picks.
Im not a Pats fan, but I would not be happy if I was. The whole Belli does Belli stuff yea thats really easy to do when you have Brady the best QB of all time who elevates everyone around him and people come there and want to play with him just like what happened in Tampa. Brady won another SB and could still be playing today but got gun shy where he was scared to get hit and its over once that happens as a QB. The Pats have been an average team since Brady left.
Talent wise the first two picks were fine. What the issue is though picks 3 and and the first two 4s and the fact that a QB in his make or break year really didnt get any help. Mapu in the third round from Sacramento State which plays in the Big Sky which is just an awful conference. They could have gotten him much later and maybe he would even go drafted.
There were much better options that have actually played against elite players. The SEC puts by far the most players in the NFL and even most of them dont make the NFL, now a big sky player to be a LB against the best of the best in the NFL in the 3rd? The talent has spread out more in college with the transfer portal but theres no way around the fact that outside the power 5 the game really slows down. Theres a handful of non power 5 teams that do put guys in the NFL and most of them are about to join the Big 12 this year.
Then a center from Troy where maybe hes okay, but hes never faced these big time DTs either. A kicker next when several undrafted kickers are just as good and then some linemen where the real ones had already been taken. They basically spent the middle of the draft with guys that have never actually had to compete against the best in college much less the pros then finished with a risk and an average lineman at best.
Simply drafting someone for a position doesnt mean the positional need was addressed.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
You didn't get the point I was trying to make,we've been hearing for years that Belli was making so many bad picks and a majority of them turned out to be legit players. in quite a few cases we're talking All-Pro level players.
Not counting this current draft and going back year by year I can give you plenty of "bad picks" on draft weekend that all turned into solid players.
2022: Cole Strange was considered a reach and he might have been one of their top 2 best Olinemen last season. I don't remember anyone thinking that Tyquan Thornton,Marcus Jones,Jack Jones or Bailey Zappe were in that reach category but each one should promise throughout the season.
2021: I don't remember hearing any complaints about reaches in this draft class but you mentioned above that you thought Mac should be considered. Mac finished 2nd in OROY of the voting,helped lead the Pats to a 10-7 record that included a 7 game win streak,where his stats were top 3 in all of football during that stretch in completion percentage & passer rating, and helped them get into the playoffs.
2020: Kyle Dugger & Josh Uche were considered bad picks when drafted and have turned into very good starters that might turn into ProBowl/AllPro level players real soon.
2019: Joejuan Williams was the only player from that year thought of as a reach going a round earlier than expected and he hasn't lived up to that 2nd round draft spot. On the flipside,N'Keal Harry was taken in the first and was considered a great pick who had played against elite competition. He turned out to be a bust for this team.
2018: The only complaint from this draft that I remember was drafting Sony Michel in the first. Not really a reach but that BB took a RB in the first. Michel played a huge role during NE's last SB run here. Isaia Wynnwas drafted with their 1st,played against elite competition and has pretty much been a bust here.
2017: Due to trades that BB made for Brandin Cooks & Kony Ealy they didn't pick until the 3rd round. I don't remember any complaints with those later picks. This was one of their smallest draft classes in awhile due to BB trading picks for established players to help win a SB during that 4 SB appearances in 5 years stretch.
2016: Taking Joe Thuney in the 3rd was considered a reach when he was expected to go around rounds 4-5. He's made multiple AllPro teams and started 3 SB winners. NE had to forfeit their 1st for deflategate and no one after Thuney was really considered a reach. Cyus Jones,who was taken with their 2nd and played against elite competition ended up being a bust.
2015: there were quite a few in this draft cosidered reaches. Jordan Richard,Geneo Grissom,Shaq Mason & Joe Cardona. the first two were pretty much busts, Mason turned into a solid starter on multiple SB winners and Cardona has been NE's long snapper since getting drafted. A gripe could be made for drafting a log snapper but the guy has done his job admirably since taking over.
2014: The reaches were Bryan Stork,James White & Cam Fleming. Stork started the majority of games his rookie year including the SB and was gone after his second season. White was an absolute great pick in the end and Cam Fleming helped win 2 SBs. Dominique Easley was their 1st round pick who played against elite competition and was a bust in the NFL.
2013: Duron Harmon was considered the reach and ended up being a solid pick that helped win multiple SBs. Aaron Dobson was their 2nd rounder who played against very good competition and a was a bust. As was Josh Boyce another guy from a big program that ended up a bust.
2012:Tavon WIlson & Nate Ebner were the reaches in this draft class. Wilson was pretty much a bust while Ebner was a core S/Ter that helped win 3 SBs and made an AllPro team.
2011: Shane Vereen was the reach and played a key role as Brady's 3rd down RB while helping to win a SB. Ras I-Dowling was their 2nd that played against elite competition and was a bust.
2010: Didn't really have a reach in this class with McCourty,Gronk,Brandon Spikes,Aaron Hernandez. That year it was all big program players.
2009: Sebastian Vollmer was the reach, he was a full time starter,helped win two SBs and made an AllPro team.
2008: No reaches but Terrence Wheatley (2nd) & Shawn Crable (3rd) were big program players that ended up busts.
In the years before 2008 the only player really thought of as a reach was Logan Mankins with a 1st in 2005 that turned out to be a great pick. I could give you many names like Chad Jackson,Laurence Maroney,David Thomas,Gus Scott & Dexter Reid who all played for big programs and were either a bust or had a pretty MEH overall NFL career.
You seem to not like any of these middle Olinemen that BB drafted when he has a very good history of turning players that were thought of as reaches who weren't any good or late round picks that would be average at best who all ended up playing major roles in helping to win/get to SBs.
I'm sure if we played monday morning QB and looked at each individual spot where all of these players were drafted you could pick out many other players that would have been considered better than each player below yet they all worked out well for NE.
Logan Mankins,Sebastain Vollmer,Shaq Mason,Marcus Cannon,Michael Onwenu,Bryan Stork,Cam Fleming,Joe Thuney,Dan Stevenson,Dan Koppen,Dave Andrews UDFA,Ted Larsen.
If you can say one thing that NE does well is develop offensive linemen from the later rounds.
Eric
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The Pats were 8-9 last season, if you take a first round linemen in Strange and he only might have been one of their two best its a terrible pick unless you have pro bowlers all over the line. If he wants to draft everyone from no name conferences with reaches while other teams pick studs thats certainly the teams choice.
Again wipe out anything that included Brady on the team. Its been clear Brady allowed them to be cute just like Green Bay was allowed to be cute during Rodgers prime and the Saints were great during Breese etc. When you have a HOF QB its much harder to mess something up than it is to be a genius. They also had the luxury of being in a really bad division for years.
The Dolphins, Jets and Bills had been a joke for about a decade. 2019 was the Bills first double digit win season in a decade, over the last 20 years the Dolphins have had 3, the Jets havent had one since 2015. They're all better teams now than what they had been and theres no more Brady to cover for everything
While Jones shouldnt have been a first round QB and good for him getting that money, I do feel bad for him with whats coming on the line. If they run into a team like Philly that line is going to get eaten alive and they arent the only team that can do it. Jones better get real quick getting rid of the ball to who knows what in all honesty. Hes in a make or break year as QBs get 3 to 4 years max and he was bad last year and they didnt really do anything to help him this year.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
For the first bolded line,the OL play was bad because they got hit with so many injuries at one point early in the season they literally had to drag one FA OLinemen off the streets and throwing him into the game for heavy snap counts a day or two later. Strange still played well for a rookie. You obviously weren't watching their games because you wouldn't be arguing this point with me if you had.
For the second one, so in your eyes every single play made by anyone not named Brady was all due to Tom Brady,gotcha. Every tackle that made a block,every CB that had an interception,every LB that had a sack,that 6th round S/T guy downed the kick returner back at the 4yd line....All Brady.
Even the biggest Brady honks on this forum,including myself, have never thought that but thanks for making it clear here. Prolonging this debate with you just seems pointless now.
Eric
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Im not sure why you seem to be getting upset. There is no denying that Brady made every player on the offense better. You could plug and play guys and his ability to read defenses yes did improve the offensive line play and his ability to spread the ball around allowed them to not have to worry about drafting big time offensive weapons. The same thing happened in GB with Rogers, Brady was obviously much better but its an undeniable fact that having an elite HOF qb improves everyone around them offensively with not only their physical ability but their ability to read defenses.
Belli isnt some super genius thats smarter than everyone else though video taping other teams practices seemed to help. Brady has won elsewhere, Belli has not. Its much harder to coach and make these cute picks when you dont have the best QB of all time on your roster.
Strange spent 6 years at Tennessee Chattanooga in the Southern conference. There isnt a single good football team in that conference. Chattanooga was a run heavy team and he has significant issues with footwork especially when it comes to pass protection. If he has to be a starter hes basically being asked to learn to pass block at the NFL level. Hes a solid depth guy but if hes starting or even considered the best Olineman theres issues. He played in a no name conference for 6 years for a reason.
Someone being critical of players or decisions isnt a reason to get upset. I would rather every player with few expectations be successful and get a ton of money. It doesnt change the fact though that NFL teams simply arent going to be successful loading up on players from horrible conferences or using high picks on kickers
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
@Basebal21 Not getting upset at all,its just when you take the conversation down a stupid path it makes no sense continuing on with you. First it was all due to Brady and now slipping Belli's videotaping as a suttle shot. Nice. You can keep going on homie but I'm done.
Eric
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Lol. Im not the one who took it down an emotional path where I somehow said everything was because of Brady. Its a fact Brady had more success than Belli since they parted ways. Its a fact Brady elevated the players around him on the offense throughout his career. Its also a fact Bellicheck did cheat.
Theres always been the debate of who was more responsible for their success Brady or Beli and the answer is very clearly Brady. Belli has to win a SB to get back into the conversation and spending high round draft picks on players from Sacramento state and a kicker isnt going to win a SB
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Those two topics have been argued here ad nauseum and you're years late to that party. Honestly no one cares anymore about rehashing it all again,I certainly don't.
As for BB's picks, we'll see how they workout this season and in the coming seasons after that. We disagree on who were reaches and if that really matters in any event so I'm just leaving it at that.
Eric
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Fair enough not to want to debate it, I only brought it up because it does have relevancy in terms of discussing draft picks. If a coach is winning it all or getting to the SB every year then yea you have to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if they arent its a relevant criticism that is applicable when they are doing something way out of the box and people are just supposed to trust it will work.
Out of 259 picks 44 were none power 5 players. Notre Dame is a power caliber program that chooses to stay independent and BYU/Cincinnati who each had 3 are in the Big 12 now so I didnt count them. NE took almost 10 percent of those players and more than one of them was the only player selected from that conference period. The 7th round JSU guy doesnt really matter its the 7th round, but the 3rd round was the big one and being one of 3 teams to draft a kicker and doing so when there was still some good players on the board deserves to be questioned/criticized. The idea of he can do no wrong and if smarter than everyone is gone by now for football fans, should be for Pats fans as well
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
The thing is though,like I previously mentioned,Bill has always done his own thing compared to everyone else. Sometimes its worked ,others it hasn't but people continuing to complain about it when its been 20+ years just makes zero sense in my mind. Thats what he does so its better to just deal with it than typing comment after comment crying about it.
The picks slots don't matter anymore after the draft and the only thing that does is can BB turn any of those draftees into NFL players,time will tell.
Eric
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Pick slots matter when people are grossly over drafted. They determine what you are missing out on and what you are paying them. As I mentioned though the leash for doing your own thing should be dependent on being dominate. They simply havent been for a couple years now and a Sacramento State LB isnt going to change that nor is over drafting a kicker.
I get that as a Pats fan you just have to deal with it, doesnt mean you have to be happy with continuing a losing strategy for someone trying to prove theyre smarter than everyone else. He now has the worst QB in the division for probably the first time in his career at NE and did very little to help him while spending a valuable pick on a no name and then a kicker.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
As of now, I like us to win double digit games. Some will call that delusional.
We were an 8 win team last year, and we should show significant improvement in enough ways to add 2 more.
Even adding 2 likely just keeps it at 8. Those 2 wins from the Jets are very likely gone. Its almost impossible for Rodgers to be as bad as their QBs were last year and those were still close one score games. They also have to play the Eagles and Chiefs, Chargers arent exactly a pushover either but generally find a way to lose.
Theres rumors the Pats will lose a home game that will be played in Germany as well
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
...
Your lack of belief in the Patriots is just going to make this upcoming season all the sweeter!
And youll be more than welcome to say I told you so if they pull off the impossible. I have them finishing 4th now that the Jets have a real QB that just has to be average and will likely be better than that. Maybe 3rd since I dont really believe in Tuas ability to play a full season and the Dolphins are a different team when hes hurt.
Even if they get the German game that can be a whatever since both teams have to travel there, but theres no way around the fact that KC and Philly both being on the schedule is an issue. Steelers arent what they once were but having to go there is hardly ideal as well.
Short of everyone else getting a ton of injuries I dont see anyway they could win the division
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007