@WQuarterFreddie said:
At this point I feel the need to point out I asked for the other 2 threads to be closed due to the constant drumming of the repetitive drum.
This time I created a thread as an update only for those that had an interest in VaultBox 2 and that a survey is being circulated for feedback.
Even though I feel that this thread has gone off the rails once again I have not nor will I ask for the thread to be closed.
I can only hope that a certain contributor will have an epiphany and the repetitive drumming will cease....🤞
Hope springs eternal. You have a history of unsuccessfully trying to police the paths taken by threads that you start.
Maybe someday you'll have a epiphany and realize that is pointless. I don't care why you start threads, whether you start threads, or whether you get them shut down.
If you don't want to see my comments regarding VB, don't start threads about VB. Or just actually Ignore me, and then control yourself and don't click on my posts. Your call.
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Thanks to the few on here that ruin it for the rest of us. 🙄
@WQuarterFreddie said:
The thread was for comments from fellow members who currently have error coin submissions to PCGS. As of now it appears I am the only one. 👍🤣😂
@WQuarterFreddie said:
Starting a new thread for you 3 members so you can have at it without taking my thread off topic😴😴😴🙄
@Byers said:
Maybe some will pop in and comment, but you can’t blame Zoins, EOC, or myself, for sharing our honest thoughts on the situation…
I can blame you guys for not answering my question but instead taking my thread in a whole new direction that I couldn't care less about. Now I have made you guys a new thread to discuss your topic. Not sure why I had to do it but you are welcome!😎
I didn't buy a vaultbox, and never will. But if people want to buy the product, why would anyone care; much less disparage what they do for enjoyment of the hobby?
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
I receive surveys from companies I do business with all the time - from airlines to grocery stores to banks. I don’t think soliciting customer feedback is an indication of ‘damage control’. It’s likely an attempt to figure out how to satisfy customers and thereby sell more product.
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
I receive surveys from companies I do business with all the time - from airlines to grocery stores to banks. I don’t think soliciting customer feedback is an indication of ‘damage control’. It’s likely an attempt to figure out how to satisfy customers and thereby sell more product.
EVERY TIME I use Walmart pharmacy I get the survey request. EVERY TIME you go to the post office window, they circle the link to the survey on the receipt.
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
I receive surveys from companies I do business with all the time - from airlines to grocery stores to banks. I don’t think soliciting customer feedback is an indication of ‘damage control’. It’s likely an attempt to figure out how to satisfy customers and thereby sell more product.
Fine. Give them the benefit of the doubt. That worked out very well for the true believers in Round 1.
I also received the survey. "Box weights correlating to contents" and "more value per box" is damage control to me. In a pre-release interview, they said they were working on very tight margins. If that was true, there wouldn't be any room to add more value per box.
They literally spent months planning the product. If it did not occur to them that plastic would not be impervious to weight and metal content analysis, then they are not as smart as the dumbest people in their warehouse or at PWCC.
Believe what you want, I'm calling it as I see it -- damage control, not a sophisticated consumer survey. They know exactly what they did, and they have all the feedback they could possibly want from the online forums (reddit, YouTube, CU) to know exactly how it was perceived.
The survey is to signal that they want dissatisfied people to come back for more. They already sold all they produced, so they really don't need to sell "more." They just need pissed off people to keep coming back, and put aside the famous "fool me once" saying.
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
I receive surveys from companies I do business with all the time - from airlines to grocery stores to banks. I don’t think soliciting customer feedback is an indication of ‘damage control’. It’s likely an attempt to figure out how to satisfy customers and thereby sell more product.
EVERY TIME I use Walmart pharmacy I get the survey request. EVERY TIME you go to the post office window, they circle the link to the survey on the receipt.
And EVERY TIME you buy something from Minshull Trading you get one too, right? Because coin dealers are just like Walmart and the post office. 😂
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
I receive surveys from companies I do business with all the time - from airlines to grocery stores to banks. I don’t think soliciting customer feedback is an indication of ‘damage control’. It’s likely an attempt to figure out how to satisfy customers and thereby sell more product.
Fine. Give them the benefit of the doubt. That worked out very well for the true believers in Round 1.
I also received the survey. "Box weights correlating to contents" and "more value per box" is damage control to me. In a pre-release interview, they said they were working on very tight margins. If that was true, there wouldn't be any room to add more value per box.
They literally spent months planning the product. If it did not occur to them that plastic would not be impervious to weight and metal content analysis, then they are not as smart as the dumbest people in their warehouse or at PWCC.
Believe what you want, I'm calling it as I see it -- damage control, not a sophisticated consumer survey. They know exactly what they did, and they have all the feedback they could possibly want from the online forums (reddit, YouTube, CU) to know exactly how it was perceived.
The survey is to signal that they want dissatisfied people to come back for more. They already sold all they produced, so they really don't need to sell "more." They just need pissed off people to keep coming back, and put aside the famous "fool me once" saying.
Is your primary issue with how vaultbox represented their product? Or is it the concept of unboxing and lotteries? Or both?
I agree they should have been more transparent and that they made mistakes.
But I’m not convinced anything nefarious occurred or that they aren’t earnest in their efforts to improve. I attribute the mistakes to inexperience - but maybe I’m overly optimistic.
@jmlanzaf said:
Seems to me it is quite easy to have more value per box and actually expand your margins as long as you don't have a higher average value per box.
Very true. And they might just do that. Will that be enough to bring back people who feel they got burned? TBD.
I'll be honest. I'm a gambler, and am not philosophically opposed to buying a pig in a poke. Brett came across as very credible in his pre-release interview, and I was very tempted to take a shot, on the theory that he wasn't full of crap about working on tight margins, and that they would be offering good value to get this off the ground.
So, I was prepared to cast my better judgment and skepticism aside, as well about my concerns about it being unregulated and unsupervised. Ironically, the unboxing videos that got everyone else amped up scared the crap out of me, and brought me to my senses.
That's where I'm coming from now. They were allowed to do whatever they wanted, and they did it to create a frenzy ahead of the release. Maybe now that it's launched, they will address concerns. Maybe not. But I would never touch it after seeing what I saw, no matter what they do going forward. Others will make their own judgments. That's what makes markets.
Would also add that we don’t know what their definition of margin or COGS really is. They seemed to spend heavily on marketing and may have high overhead. So depending on their definition, it may be accurate that they did have tight margins.
@J2035 said:
Would also add that we don’t know what their definition of margin or COGS really is. They seemed to spend heavily on marketing and may have high overhead. So depending on their definition, it may be accurate that they did have tight margins.
Quite true. I've always said this about the TV people as well. Everyone thinks they are making a fortune, but there lead generation costs are very high. They likely can't sell for less and still be profitable.
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over @jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@J2035 said:
What's vaultbox? Can someone please help me understand what all the hype is about?
@J2035 said:
The week that vaultbox came out, I bought this for $475 instead. I have a beautiful coin and $100 still in my pocket. I’m happy with my decision, but to each his own!
@J2035 said:
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Seriously, why?
At this point, just basking in the absurdity of this thread.
Even though I'm a major part of it, I can't disagree.
In seriousness, I think you are missing the point that many people might still want to buy vaultbox despite the financial implications.
I think you are getting a lot of push back here because your arguments imply that vaultbox is not an appropriate way to have fun with coins. While vaultbox (in its current form) is not for me, I routinely spend $300+ in this hobby and have nothing to show for it. For example, hotel, airfare and meals at a major show easily run $1,000+. I could stay home and just buy coins online and save $1,000, but that is not as fun. Another example are the labels I collect. I put together registry sets of both the 2019 W and 2020 W quarters and paid a premium for "First Week of Discovery" labels. I know full well that I likely won't be able to recoup my money in 20 years, but I just don't care. I thought the W quarter release and hunt was pretty cool. The "First Week of Discovery" label represents the thrill of the hunt for me.
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
I receive surveys from companies I do business with all the time - from airlines to grocery stores to banks. I don’t think soliciting customer feedback is an indication of ‘damage control’. It’s likely an attempt to figure out how to satisfy customers and thereby sell more product.
Fine. Give them the benefit of the doubt. That worked out very well for the true believers in Round 1.
I also received the survey. "Box weights correlating to contents" and "more value per box" is damage control to me. In a pre-release interview, they said they were working on very tight margins. If that was true, there wouldn't be any room to add more value per box.
They literally spent months planning the product. If it did not occur to them that plastic would not be impervious to weight and metal content analysis, then they are not as smart as the dumbest people in their warehouse or at PWCC.
Believe what you want, I'm calling it as I see it -- damage control, not a sophisticated consumer survey. They know exactly what they did, and they have all the feedback they could possibly want from the online forums (reddit, YouTube, CU) to know exactly how it was perceived.
The survey is to signal that they want dissatisfied people to come back for more. They already sold all they produced, so they really don't need to sell "more." They just need pissed off people to keep coming back, and put aside the famous "fool me once" saying.
Is your primary issue with how vaultbox represented their product? Or is it the concept of unboxing and lotteries? Or both?
I agree they should have been more transparent and that they made mistakes.
But I’m not convinced anything nefarious occurred or that they aren’t earnest in their efforts to improve. I attribute the mistakes to inexperience - but maybe I’m overly optimistic.
I understand the confusion, because many people have been making inaccurate assertions regarding me and my viewpoint. I take partial responsibility for not correcting everyone, every time, and for being hard headed and repetitive in what I have been saying.
I have NO PROBLEM at all with lotteries. They scratch an itch for those who feel the need, they fund worthwhile public expenditures, and they shift part of a tax burden onto people who willing pay for the chance to play. There is a valid argument that they are a form of regressive taxation, but I am not so liberal that I have a problem with that. I only point out that they are bad plays. I NEVER passed judgment on anyone who likes to play them.
No problem with mystery boxes. I posted about them on another thread in response to a question. They generally represent decent value for those who like that sort of thing.
As for this, I do think something nefarious occurred, because I have too much respect for the people behind it to think they didn't know what they were doing. They disclosed that the value was not going to be there, but, believe it or not, a lot of people missed it.
I then just don't buy the series of coincidences around who got what. Unregulated, unsupervised, and they took advantage to achieve marketing buzz. As a result, insiders and marketing affiliates got good boxes, and average people did not. Maybe they fix it going forward, maybe they don't.
Doesn't matter to me, because I'd never trust them after seeing what happened the first time. What inexperience? The people behind it have decades of experience in the industry.
It didn't occur to them that a box can be weighed, and metallic content can be analyzed through a sealed plastic box? BS. It occurred to everyone on the internet who don't have the smarts to build successful businesses in the space. I think it was by design, to enable them to steer good boxes where they needed to go ahead of the launch. Instead of sending surveys, how about an affidavit from NGC that the PWCC gold coin really was unboxed weeks ahead of time, in a box specifically created for that purpose, and sent back to NGC for reboxing and randomization before distribution? I'd love to see that!
I'd be interested if the next series was priced closer to $400, with the same aggregate value of contents, and if shipping was handled by NGC rather than VB, PWCC, or anyone else connected to them. But that would really reduce margins and eliminate their ability to control what goes where, so it will never happen.
@J2035 said:
Would also add that we don’t know what their definition of margin or COGS really is. They seemed to spend heavily on marketing and may have high overhead. So depending on their definition, it may be accurate that they did have tight margins.
Very true. But allocating all fixed costs to the first series is a BS way of doing the calculation. If true, that would make the first series the worst value rather than the best. It would also be self defeating, since it could very well discourage what would otherwise be steady repeat business that will be difficult to recapture through a BS survey.
If that's not what happened, and marketing and distribution costs are really that high, then it's just a bad deal for everyone, other than the people receiving the marketing and distribution dollars.
For the first series, one person won the lottery, a few dozen other people received decent value, and probably something around 600 out of 800 paid around double retail for three common modern precious metal coins that they were not otherwise in the market for. Yes, they got the thrill of the chase. Let's see if the promise of a smaller haircut the next time around keeps them coming back for more, now that they know viscerally what their chances of a score really are.
@J2035 said: @NJCoin - thank you for clarifying your position. I think there’s less distance between than the two viewpoints in this thread than I thought.
We got a bit derailed by the discussion around Mencken, lotteries, condescension, etc. or maybe viewpoints have evolved slightly.
Thank you for saying that. I always maintained that they had a right to sell it, and people had a right to buy it. I also always thought it was a bad deal. Yes, the thread got derailed when people started accusing me of being upset that people would buy something I wouldn't, as though that meant I didn't "approve."
I really always just thought people didn't fully understand the product, that the disclosures were hard to find, and that the hype was over the top. My view will absolutely evolve if people continue to buy, and if there continues to be a secondary market in excess of the issue price.
In fact, I will then assert that VB is pricing it too low, and leaving money on the table, because it is under valuing what people are willing to pay for the thrill of the pull, just as I have been. OTOH, if these sell out and then languish on eBay, then I might have been on to something.
The hype is certainly over for now, as there has not been a completed sale in a week, and that was for less than the $1500 listed price. Sealed boxes are currently sitting, unsold, at $1,000, $1,400 and $1,550. I don't think they will go for anywhere near a double the next time around because, after experiencing the thrill of the pull, and the results, many more people will be chasing the unopened flip. If there is not organic interest in scratching off the lottery ticket, and everyone is just chasing a flip, these will die because coin collectors are not a natural market for $600 lottery tickets.
Time will tell, but I do not begrudge VB its right to do this, or anyone's right to take a shot, either by breaking the seal or by going for an eBay flip. I'd do it myself if I had any confidence that the flip market was really there.
@cameonut2011 said:
If only Vaultbox had a CAC approved series, this thread would be even more interesting… 🧐
Nothing would stop that if CAC opens itself to moderns, or if NGCX extends to classics. Of course, nothing with respect to the concept or value proposition would otherwise change, but there would be no reason not to include CAC coins as red cores if they were available.
@124Spider said:
This horse died four pages back; why is the poor carcass still being beaten?
Because NJ changed sides (horses?). Now he's a gambler who would consider buying one. Sorry... spoiler alert!
Only if you can guarantee him that he can flip it for a substantial profit 🤣😂
No. He's gone even farther. I'm thinking we should call 911 for a wellness check. He wrote:
"I'd be interested if the next series was priced closer to $400, with the same aggregate value of contents, and if shipping was handled by NGC rather than VB, PWCC, or anyone else connected to them. But that would really reduce margins and eliminate their ability to control what goes where, so it will never happen."
@124Spider said:
This horse died four pages back; why is the poor carcass still being beaten?
Because NJ changed sides (horses?). Now he's a gambler who would consider buying one. Sorry... spoiler alert!
Only if you can guarantee him that he can flip it for a substantial profit 🤣😂
Correct. Only if it wasn't a bad deal, or came with a guaranteed flip. That's right!
Don't twist my words to make it seem like I really switched sides because you guys made me see the light. You've been mischaracterizing my position from the very beginning, and continue to do so.
While you whine about my continued posting, you can't help but keep baiting me into doing so, so you must really enjoy it.
@124Spider said:
This horse died four pages back; why is the poor carcass still being beaten?
Because NJ changed sides (horses?). Now he's a gambler who would consider buying one. Sorry... spoiler alert!
Only if you can guarantee him that he can flip it for a substantial profit 🤣😂
No. He's gone even farther. I'm thinking we should call 911 for a wellness check. He wrote:
"I'd be interested if the next series was priced closer to $400, with the same aggregate value of contents, and if shipping was handled by NGC rather than VB, PWCC, or anyone else connected to them. But that would really reduce margins and eliminate their ability to control what goes where, so it will never happen."
A wellness check really isn't necessary. I'm dead serious -- I was thinking about it after I saw Blake's interview with Shaun, taking his word that these would represent decent value. I only got nauseous and bailed after seeing the unboxing videos, because they validated all of my original concerns.
I realized then that everything, including the interview, was nothing more than pre-release hype. The fact that good boxes were going to influencers, pre-release, with later disclaimers that the boxes weren't real, made me realize good coins wouldn't be going to me. And that was without regard to whether Blake's claims about their margins were true.
If they lowered the price while retaining the value, and handed distribution off to a trusted third party, yes, I'd probably be interested because then, at least to me, they'd represent a reasonable gamble.
But, get real, that's never going to happen. So don't waste your time or money on a wellness check for me. Let's reconvene and make arrangements for the wellness check when they announce a series with similar value to Series 1, at a price of around $400, with distribution handled by the grading and box sealing service.
I'll show up, with certified funds for two boxes. Until then, let's not get too excited, or put the horse that I supposedly changed before the ever present cart.
@124Spider said:
This horse died four pages back; why is the poor carcass still being beaten?
Because NJ changed sides (horses?). Now he's a gambler who would consider buying one. Sorry... spoiler alert!
Only if you can guarantee him that he can flip it for a substantial profit 🤣😂
No. He's gone even farther. I'm thinking we should call 911 for a wellness check. He wrote:
"I'd be interested if the next series was priced closer to $400, with the same aggregate value of contents, and if shipping was handled by NGC rather than VB, PWCC, or anyone else connected to them. But that would really reduce margins and eliminate their ability to control what goes where, so it will never happen."
@MFeld said:
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over @jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
Almost reads like the TV Nielsen ratings.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@MFeld said:
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over @jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
@MFeld said:
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over @jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
Almost reads like the TV Nielsen ratings.
The problem is they're all reruns.
Episode log of entire series:
N: scam
J: grab bag
N: RIP-off
J: let people have their fun
N: Public service alert
J: let people have their fun
N: bad look
J: fun. Choice
N: insider trading. scam
J: no evidence. Fun. Choice.
N: Mencken had it right
J: Choice. Fun.
N: Mencken
J: Choice. Fun
N: waste of money
J: Fun
N: rip off
J: Fun
N: I'd buy one at $400.
@J2035 said:
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Sure makes sense. But. The house has stacked the deck as shown with VB1. Some of the players were preferentially treated such that Joe off the street had much less chance than stated of getting one of the big value, or even reasonable value, boxes. The vendors worked to do a presale with a company that is being investigated by the FBI for shill bidding on ebay. The influencers all came up with great coins, while non-influencers and Joe off the street, posting their results here, youtube, or wherever, largely did not. So sure, if this was a truly random distribution of the boxes, it might be fun. But it seems the house wants you to believe that when it is really mostly hype to get one to shell out 2-3x price value for some bullion coins in NGCX slabs..........
I wouldn't get as near as the Moon from Earth for VB2.
@J2035 said:
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Sure makes sense. But. The house has stacked the deck as shown with VB1. Some of the players were preferentially treated such that Joe off the street had much less chance than stated of getting one of the big value, or even reasonable value, boxes. The vendors worked to do a presale with a company that is being investigated by the FBI for shill bidding on ebay. The influencers all came up with great coins, while non-influencers and Joe off the street, posting their results here, youtube, or wherever, largely did not. So sure, if this was a truly random distribution of the boxes, it might be fun. But it seems the house wants you to believe that when it is really mostly hype to get one to shell out 2-3x price value for some bullion coins in NGCX slabs..........
I wouldn't get as near as the Moon from Earth for VB2.
I’m still baffled that anyone would buy those things.
If you want graded bullion just buy exactly what you want.
Why pay $600 to hope and pray?
Just take that $600 and go buy a graded 1/4 oz and a couple graded eagles and you’re already ahead of 99% of people who fell for the vault box scam.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
@FranklinHalfAddict said:
I’m still baffled that anyone would buy those things.
If you want graded bullion just buy exactly what you want.
Why pay $600 to hope and pray?
Just take that $600 and go buy a graded 1/4 oz and a couple graded eagles and you’re already ahead of 99% of people who fell for the vault box scam.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
I think mystery box buyers are not motivated to buy because they are trying to acquire bullion - they are looking to have a bit of fun with coins/collectibles, be entertained and have a chance to ‘win’.
@MFeld said:
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over @jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
Almost reads like the TV Nielsen ratings.
The problem is they're all reruns.
Episode log of entire series:
N: scam
J: grab bag
N: RIP-off
J: let people have their fun
N: Public service alert
J: let people have their fun
N: bad look
J: fun. Choice
N: insider trading. scam
J: no evidence. Fun. Choice.
N: Mencken had it right
J: Choice. Fun.
N: Mencken
J: Choice. Fun
N: waste of money
J: Fun
N: rip off
J: Fun
N: I'd buy one at $400.
Series canceled
At the end of the day, folks’ concerns seem to be with how this launch was executed - specifically around the promo video, distribution of the boxes and how the retail value of the coins was represented.
Also - nothing wrong with updating one’s opinion in light of new arguments or new information. Maybe one day I’ll even get on board with with NGCX
@MFeld said:
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over @jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
Almost reads like the TV Nielsen ratings.
The problem is they're all reruns.
Episode log of entire series:
N: scam
J: grab bag
N: RIP-off
J: let people have their fun
N: Public service alert
J: let people have their fun
N: bad look
J: fun. Choice
N: insider trading. scam
J: no evidence. Fun. Choice.
N: Mencken had it right
J: Choice. Fun.
N: Mencken
J: Choice. Fun
N: waste of money
J: Fun
N: rip off
J: Fun
N: I'd buy one at $400.
Series canceled
At the end of the day, folks’ concerns seem to be with how this launch was executed - specifically around the promo video, distribution of the boxes and how the retail value of the coins was represented.
Also - nothing wrong with updating one’s opinion in light of new arguments or new information. Maybe one day I’ll even get on board with with NGCX
If I’m not mistaken, there wasn’t a new argument or new information. Instead, someone posted that they’d feel differently at a lower price level and with a more equitable method of distribution, (but) which he’s convinced won’t happen.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@J2035 said:
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Sure makes sense. But. The house has stacked the deck as shown with VB1. Some of the players were preferentially treated such that Joe off the street had much less chance than stated of getting one of the big value, or even reasonable value, boxes. The vendors worked to do a presale with a company that is being investigated by the FBI for shill bidding on ebay. The influencers all came up with great coins, while non-influencers and Joe off the street, posting their results here, youtube, or wherever, largely did not. So sure, if this was a truly random distribution of the boxes, it might be fun. But it seems the house wants you to believe that when it is really mostly hype to get one to shell out 2-3x price value for some bullion coins in NGCX slabs..........
I wouldn't get as near as the Moon from Earth for VB2.
@J2035 said:
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Sure makes sense. But. The house has stacked the deck as shown with VB1. Some of the players were preferentially treated such that Joe off the street had much less chance than stated of getting one of the big value, or even reasonable value, boxes. The vendors worked to do a presale with a company that is being investigated by the FBI for shill bidding on ebay. The influencers all came up with great coins, while non-influencers and Joe off the street, posting their results here, youtube, or wherever, largely did not. So sure, if this was a truly random distribution of the boxes, it might be fun. But it seems the house wants you to believe that when it is really mostly hype to get one to shell out 2-3x price value for some bullion coins in NGCX slabs..........
I wouldn't get as near as the Moon from Earth for VB2.
@J2035 said:
I think mystery box buyers are not motivated to buy because they are trying to acquire bullion - they are looking to have a bit of fun with coins/collectibles, be entertained and have a chance to ‘win’.
Some posters are trying real hard to not understand this.
@MFeld said:
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over @jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
Almost reads like the TV Nielsen ratings.
The problem is they're all reruns.
Episode log of entire series:
N: scam
J: grab bag
N: RIP-off
J: let people have their fun
N: Public service alert
J: let people have their fun
N: bad look
J: fun. Choice
N: insider trading. scam
J: no evidence. Fun. Choice.
N: Mencken had it right
J: Choice. Fun.
N: Mencken
J: Choice. Fun
N: waste of money
J: Fun
N: rip off
J: Fun
N: I'd buy one at $400.
Series canceled
At the end of the day, folks’ concerns seem to be with how this launch was executed - specifically around the promo video, distribution of the boxes and how the retail value of the coins was represented.
Also - nothing wrong with updating one’s opinion in light of new arguments or new information. Maybe one day I’ll even get on board with with NGCX
If I’m not mistaken, there wasn’t a new argument or new information. Instead, someone posted that they’d feel differently at a lower price level and with a more equitable method of distribution, (but) which he’s convinced won’t happen.😉
@J2035 said:
If you like unboxing and gambling a bit (e.g. lotto, Vegas, poker, etc.), vaultbox seems like great way to have fun with coins and I understand that appeal. If your goal is to invest in coins and make money, then vaultbox should be avoided. Different people have different objectives with their collecting and that's what makes it diverse and fun.
Sure makes sense. But. The house has stacked the deck as shown with VB1. Some of the players were preferentially treated such that Joe off the street had much less chance than stated of getting one of the big value, or even reasonable value, boxes. The vendors worked to do a presale with a company that is being investigated by the FBI for shill bidding on ebay. The influencers all came up with great coins, while non-influencers and Joe off the street, posting their results here, youtube, or wherever, largely did not. So sure, if this was a truly random distribution of the boxes, it might be fun. But it seems the house wants you to believe that when it is really mostly hype to get one to shell out 2-3x price value for some bullion coins in NGCX slabs..........
I wouldn't get as near as the Moon from Earth for VB2.
What you describe sounds like the potential makings of an early Ponzi scheme. Shame on NGC for aiding in it (even if unwittingly, the gimmicky “appeal” should have made NGC think twice).
I think this thread lives because it's hard to wrap a mind around why this is good for the marketplace.
The goal of the effort is to increase margins on commodities, yes modern coins are essentially commodities. The marketplace doesn't care what the effort costs, whether TV or this, it only cares that the goods are overpriced.
Pricing dislocation is bad for the marketplace, it artificially extracts more money for a commodity that sells for less in most other venues.
What is good about this scenario for the marketplace? Unhappy consumers are good for the market? TV buyers paying exhorbitant prices is a good thing?
@fathom said:
I think this thread lives because it's hard to wrap a mind around why this is good for the marketplace.
The goal of the effort is to increase margins on commodities, yes modern coins are essentially commodities. The marketplace doesn't care what the effort costs, whether TV or this, it only cares that the goods are overpriced.
Pricing dislocation is bad for the marketplace, it artificially extracts more money for a commodity that sells for less in most other venues.
What is good about this scenario for the marketplace? Unhappy consumers are good for the market? TV buyers paying exhorbitant prices is a good thing?
It happens in sports cards so its OK?
Sorry, indefensible.
I 1,000,000% agree with all of your sentiments, but the thread lives because a few people who are smart enough not to sink their own money into it feel the need to post about it, support it, defend it, and attack people with an opposing point of view who will not allow them to have the final word.
A compulsion to get the last word, and to start a new conversation every time something stirs in VB World, is why this thread lives and new threads will spring up whenever there is anything new to report.
@fathom said:
I think this thread lives because it's hard to wrap a mind around why this is good for the marketplace.
The goal of the effort is to increase margins on commodities, yes modern coins are essentially commodities. The marketplace doesn't care what the effort costs, whether TV or this, it only cares that the goods are overpriced.
Pricing dislocation is bad for the marketplace, it artificially extracts more money for a commodity that sells for less in most other venues.
What is good about this scenario for the marketplace? Unhappy consumers are good for the market? TV buyers paying exhorbitant prices is a good thing?
It happens in sports cards so its OK?
Sorry, indefensible.
I 1,000,000% agree with all of your sentiments, but the thread lives because a few people who are smart enough not to sink their own money into it feel the need to support it, defend it, and attack people with an opposing point of view who will not allow them to have the final word.
A compulsion to get the last word, and to start a new conversation every time something stirs in VB World, is why this thread lives and new threads will spring up whenever there is anything new to report.
“A compulsion to get the last word…”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@fathom said:
I think this thread lives because it's hard to wrap a mind around why this is good for the marketplace.
The goal of the effort is to increase margins on commodities, yes modern coins are essentially commodities. The marketplace doesn't care what the effort costs, whether TV or this, it only cares that the goods are overpriced.
Pricing dislocation is bad for the marketplace, it artificially extracts more money for a commodity that sells for less in most other venues.
What is good about this scenario for the marketplace? Unhappy consumers are good for the market? TV buyers paying exhorbitant prices is a good thing?
It happens in sports cards so its OK?
Sorry, indefensible.
I 1,000,000% agree with all of your sentiments, but the thread lives because a few people who are smart enough not to sink their own money into it feel the need to support it, defend it, and attack people with an opposing point of view who will not allow them to have the final word.
A compulsion to get the last word, and to start a new conversation every time something stirs in VB World, is why this thread lives and new threads will spring up whenever there is anything new to report.
“A compulsion to get the last word…”
Yes. I haven't started a single one of these threads. I have no need to talk about VB at all, but I am not going to sit by and watch people with no skin in the game make posts promoting it without responding.
They cannot control themselves from starting these threads, or allow any negative response to go unanswered. Note all of the out of context posts from them serving no purpose other than to make a snide reference to me. If there is nothing interesting or noteworthy in those posts, I let them go.
The thread is not going to end until they stop, or until someone complains and gets it shut down. I particularly love how Freddie got his own prior threads shut down, blamed me for it (by not conforming to his wishes about what can and cannot be posted in his threads), and only recently owned up to having made the complaints himself.
Yes. They started an unnecessary thread devoted to a survey sent out by a coin dealer. Over 300 posts in, it continues because I am not allowed to have the last word. Neither is anyone else who has anything negative to say about VB. I have just been the most vocal and persistent player, but you should note that I am never the one starting, provoking, nor breaking a lull in the action.
Comments
Hope springs eternal. You have a history of unsuccessfully trying to police the paths taken by threads that you start.
Maybe someday you'll have a epiphany and realize that is pointless. I don't care why you start threads, whether you start threads, or whether you get them shut down.
If you don't want to see my comments regarding VB, don't start threads about VB. Or just actually Ignore me, and then control yourself and don't click on my posts. Your call.
I didn't buy a vaultbox, and never will. But if people want to buy the product, why would anyone care; much less disparage what they do for enjoyment of the hobby?
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Fair enough. I was just opining as to fair value. This was a new product with a lot of red flags and hard to find disclosures. I really never meant to tell anyone how to have fun, and just tried to point out the negatives to those who might have missed them. The fact that a lot of people were unhappy after opening their boxes, rather than posting about how they enjoyed the gamble and thrill of the hunt after finding less than $300 worth of coins inside, tells me I was on to something.
As I said above, I'm kind of past that now, since exactly what this is is now out in the open for all to see. Now on to Round 2. We'll see whether I am vindicated, if it fizzles after another fast sell out and it turns out there is no aftermarket for it, or if I end up with egg on my face after their website crashes and people climb over themselves for the chance to pick them up on eBay for $1200+ five minutes after the sell out.
I suspect that the vaultbox team is working hard to update their offering to increase the appeal and address various criticisms. If market feedback reveals that the price point and odds of receiving a red core were off, I think they will adjust. It's hard to judge long term market appeal after one round.
Perhaps they will offer a box where the retail value is closer to the purchase price or perhaps they will offer a lower price box that still offers the chance to 'score'. They will likely have to experiment a bit to figure out what customers are really looking for.
Lol. That's why screenreaders exist.
I'm sure they are. They went to great lengths to prime the pump, with their misleading interviews and pre-release influencer unboxing videos. The question now is whether they have any credibility left with the target audience, or whether "fool me once" will set in.
The survey that is the topic of this thread is absolutely their attempt at damage control. The fact that they even think that is necessary is telling. Whether it is effective remains to be seen. As is whether the product will even have legs if they fix it, now that people know what it is.
It's not fair value, with a shot at a home run. It's crappy value, with a shot at a home run. There is clearly a market for that among card collectors. Among people who don't want to pay admission at a coin show? I'm not so sure. I'm also not so sure they are attracting the people from the card community they were targeting, because I don't see any evidence of that.
Of course, that might be because I am not looking in the right places! Does anyone have any data, one way or the other?
I receive surveys from companies I do business with all the time - from airlines to grocery stores to banks. I don’t think soliciting customer feedback is an indication of ‘damage control’. It’s likely an attempt to figure out how to satisfy customers and thereby sell more product.
EVERY TIME I use Walmart pharmacy I get the survey request. EVERY TIME you go to the post office window, they circle the link to the survey on the receipt.
Fine. Give them the benefit of the doubt. That worked out very well for the true believers in Round 1.
I also received the survey. "Box weights correlating to contents" and "more value per box" is damage control to me. In a pre-release interview, they said they were working on very tight margins. If that was true, there wouldn't be any room to add more value per box.
They literally spent months planning the product. If it did not occur to them that plastic would not be impervious to weight and metal content analysis, then they are not as smart as the dumbest people in their warehouse or at PWCC.
Believe what you want, I'm calling it as I see it -- damage control, not a sophisticated consumer survey. They know exactly what they did, and they have all the feedback they could possibly want from the online forums (reddit, YouTube, CU) to know exactly how it was perceived.
The survey is to signal that they want dissatisfied people to come back for more. They already sold all they produced, so they really don't need to sell "more." They just need pissed off people to keep coming back, and put aside the famous "fool me once" saying.
And EVERY TIME you buy something from Minshull Trading you get one too, right? Because coin dealers are just like Walmart and the post office. 😂
Seems to me it is quite easy to have more value per box and actually expand your margins as long as you don't have a higher average value per box.
It would appear that the Mint is actual> @NJCoin said:
Is your primary issue with how vaultbox represented their product? Or is it the concept of unboxing and lotteries? Or both?
I agree they should have been more transparent and that they made mistakes.
But I’m not convinced anything nefarious occurred or that they aren’t earnest in their efforts to improve. I attribute the mistakes to inexperience - but maybe I’m overly optimistic.
Very true. And they might just do that. Will that be enough to bring back people who feel they got burned? TBD.
I'll be honest. I'm a gambler, and am not philosophically opposed to buying a pig in a poke. Brett came across as very credible in his pre-release interview, and I was very tempted to take a shot, on the theory that he wasn't full of crap about working on tight margins, and that they would be offering good value to get this off the ground.
So, I was prepared to cast my better judgment and skepticism aside, as well about my concerns about it being unregulated and unsupervised. Ironically, the unboxing videos that got everyone else amped up scared the crap out of me, and brought me to my senses.
That's where I'm coming from now. They were allowed to do whatever they wanted, and they did it to create a frenzy ahead of the release. Maybe now that it's launched, they will address concerns. Maybe not. But I would never touch it after seeing what I saw, no matter what they do going forward. Others will make their own judgments. That's what makes markets.
Would also add that we don’t know what their definition of margin or COGS really is. They seemed to spend heavily on marketing and may have high overhead. So depending on their definition, it may be accurate that they did have tight margins.
Quite true. I've always said this about the TV people as well. Everyone thinks they are making a fortune, but there lead generation costs are very high. They likely can't sell for less and still be profitable.
For those of you who have been wondering, as of a few minutes ago, @NJCoin held a lead over
@jmlanzaf, with approximately seven dozen posts to this thread, as compared to approximately six dozen.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I understand the confusion, because many people have been making inaccurate assertions regarding me and my viewpoint. I take partial responsibility for not correcting everyone, every time, and for being hard headed and repetitive in what I have been saying.
I have NO PROBLEM at all with lotteries. They scratch an itch for those who feel the need, they fund worthwhile public expenditures, and they shift part of a tax burden onto people who willing pay for the chance to play. There is a valid argument that they are a form of regressive taxation, but I am not so liberal that I have a problem with that. I only point out that they are bad plays. I NEVER passed judgment on anyone who likes to play them.
No problem with mystery boxes. I posted about them on another thread in response to a question. They generally represent decent value for those who like that sort of thing.
As for this, I do think something nefarious occurred, because I have too much respect for the people behind it to think they didn't know what they were doing. They disclosed that the value was not going to be there, but, believe it or not, a lot of people missed it.
I then just don't buy the series of coincidences around who got what. Unregulated, unsupervised, and they took advantage to achieve marketing buzz. As a result, insiders and marketing affiliates got good boxes, and average people did not. Maybe they fix it going forward, maybe they don't.
Doesn't matter to me, because I'd never trust them after seeing what happened the first time. What inexperience? The people behind it have decades of experience in the industry.
It didn't occur to them that a box can be weighed, and metallic content can be analyzed through a sealed plastic box? BS. It occurred to everyone on the internet who don't have the smarts to build successful businesses in the space. I think it was by design, to enable them to steer good boxes where they needed to go ahead of the launch. Instead of sending surveys, how about an affidavit from NGC that the PWCC gold coin really was unboxed weeks ahead of time, in a box specifically created for that purpose, and sent back to NGC for reboxing and randomization before distribution? I'd love to see that!
I'd be interested if the next series was priced closer to $400, with the same aggregate value of contents, and if shipping was handled by NGC rather than VB, PWCC, or anyone else connected to them. But that would really reduce margins and eliminate their ability to control what goes where, so it will never happen.
Very true. But allocating all fixed costs to the first series is a BS way of doing the calculation. If true, that would make the first series the worst value rather than the best. It would also be self defeating, since it could very well discourage what would otherwise be steady repeat business that will be difficult to recapture through a BS survey.
If that's not what happened, and marketing and distribution costs are really that high, then it's just a bad deal for everyone, other than the people receiving the marketing and distribution dollars.
For the first series, one person won the lottery, a few dozen other people received decent value, and probably something around 600 out of 800 paid around double retail for three common modern precious metal coins that they were not otherwise in the market for. Yes, they got the thrill of the chase. Let's see if the promise of a smaller haircut the next time around keeps them coming back for more, now that they know viscerally what their chances of a score really are.
@NJCoin - thank you for clarifying your position. I think there’s less distance between than the two viewpoints in this thread than I thought.
We got a bit derailed by the discussion around Mencken, lotteries, condescension, etc. or maybe viewpoints have evolved slightly.
Thank you for saying that. I always maintained that they had a right to sell it, and people had a right to buy it. I also always thought it was a bad deal. Yes, the thread got derailed when people started accusing me of being upset that people would buy something I wouldn't, as though that meant I didn't "approve."
I really always just thought people didn't fully understand the product, that the disclosures were hard to find, and that the hype was over the top. My view will absolutely evolve if people continue to buy, and if there continues to be a secondary market in excess of the issue price.
In fact, I will then assert that VB is pricing it too low, and leaving money on the table, because it is under valuing what people are willing to pay for the thrill of the pull, just as I have been. OTOH, if these sell out and then languish on eBay, then I might have been on to something.
The hype is certainly over for now, as there has not been a completed sale in a week, and that was for less than the $1500 listed price. Sealed boxes are currently sitting, unsold, at $1,000, $1,400 and $1,550. I don't think they will go for anywhere near a double the next time around because, after experiencing the thrill of the pull, and the results, many more people will be chasing the unopened flip. If there is not organic interest in scratching off the lottery ticket, and everyone is just chasing a flip, these will die because coin collectors are not a natural market for $600 lottery tickets.
Time will tell, but I do not begrudge VB its right to do this, or anyone's right to take a shot, either by breaking the seal or by going for an eBay flip. I'd do it myself if I had any confidence that the flip market was really there.
If only Vaultbox had a CAC approved series, this thread would be even more interesting… 🧐
Nothing would stop that if CAC opens itself to moderns, or if NGCX extends to classics. Of course, nothing with respect to the concept or value proposition would otherwise change, but there would be no reason not to include CAC coins as red cores if they were available.
This horse died four pages back; why is the poor carcass still being beaten?
I can't believe this thread is in day 9. In the words of Mr. Wonderful... "Please stop the Madness"
Because NJ changed sides (horses?). Now he's a gambler who would consider buying one. Sorry... spoiler alert!
Only if you can guarantee him that he can flip it for a substantial profit 🤣😂
No. He's gone even farther. I'm thinking we should call 911 for a wellness check. He wrote:
"I'd be interested if the next series was priced closer to $400, with the same aggregate value of contents, and if shipping was handled by NGC rather than VB, PWCC, or anyone else connected to them. But that would really reduce margins and eliminate their ability to control what goes where, so it will never happen."
Correct. Only if it wasn't a bad deal, or came with a guaranteed flip. That's right!
Don't twist my words to make it seem like I really switched sides because you guys made me see the light. You've been mischaracterizing my position from the very beginning, and continue to do so.
While you whine about my continued posting, you can't help but keep baiting me into doing so, so you must really enjoy it.
A wellness check really isn't necessary. I'm dead serious -- I was thinking about it after I saw Blake's interview with Shaun, taking his word that these would represent decent value. I only got nauseous and bailed after seeing the unboxing videos, because they validated all of my original concerns.
I realized then that everything, including the interview, was nothing more than pre-release hype. The fact that good boxes were going to influencers, pre-release, with later disclaimers that the boxes weren't real, made me realize good coins wouldn't be going to me. And that was without regard to whether Blake's claims about their margins were true.
If they lowered the price while retaining the value, and handed distribution off to a trusted third party, yes, I'd probably be interested because then, at least to me, they'd represent a reasonable gamble.
But, get real, that's never going to happen. So don't waste your time or money on a wellness check for me. Let's reconvene and make arrangements for the wellness check when they announce a series with similar value to Series 1, at a price of around $400, with distribution handled by the grading and box sealing service.
I'll show up, with certified funds for two boxes. Until then, let's not get too excited, or put the horse that I supposedly changed before the ever present cart.
WTH? Cuckoo for Coco Puffs!😂🤣
Doctors orders. Buy (Take) 2 Vault Boxes and call me in the morning.
Almost reads like the TV Nielsen ratings.
The problem is they're all reruns.
Philippians 4:4-7
Episode log of entire series:
N: scam
J: grab bag
N: RIP-off
J: let people have their fun
N: Public service alert
J: let people have their fun
N: bad look
J: fun. Choice
N: insider trading. scam
J: no evidence. Fun. Choice.
N: Mencken had it right
J: Choice. Fun.
N: Mencken
J: Choice. Fun
N: waste of money
J: Fun
N: rip off
J: Fun
N: I'd buy one at $400.
Series canceled
Sure makes sense. But. The house has stacked the deck as shown with VB1. Some of the players were preferentially treated such that Joe off the street had much less chance than stated of getting one of the big value, or even reasonable value, boxes. The vendors worked to do a presale with a company that is being investigated by the FBI for shill bidding on ebay. The influencers all came up with great coins, while non-influencers and Joe off the street, posting their results here, youtube, or wherever, largely did not. So sure, if this was a truly random distribution of the boxes, it might be fun. But it seems the house wants you to believe that when it is really mostly hype to get one to shell out 2-3x price value for some bullion coins in NGCX slabs..........
I wouldn't get as near as the Moon from Earth for VB2.
A lot of misinformation here.
I’m still baffled that anyone would buy those things.
If you want graded bullion just buy exactly what you want.
Why pay $600 to hope and pray?
Just take that $600 and go buy a graded 1/4 oz and a couple graded eagles and you’re already ahead of 99% of people who fell for the vault box scam.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
I think mystery box buyers are not motivated to buy because they are trying to acquire bullion - they are looking to have a bit of fun with coins/collectibles, be entertained and have a chance to ‘win’.
At the end of the day, folks’ concerns seem to be with how this launch was executed - specifically around the promo video, distribution of the boxes and how the retail value of the coins was represented.
Also - nothing wrong with updating one’s opinion in light of new arguments or new information. Maybe one day I’ll even get on board with with NGCX
If I’m not mistaken, there wasn’t a new argument or new information. Instead, someone posted that they’d feel differently at a lower price level and with a more equitable method of distribution, (but) which he’s convinced won’t happen.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
THIS ^^^^^^^^.
Such as???? .....
Some posters are trying real hard to not understand this.
THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
What you describe sounds like the potential makings of an early Ponzi scheme. Shame on NGC for aiding in it (even if unwittingly, the gimmicky “appeal” should have made NGC think twice).
Why not? I like threads and concepts like Vaultbox. These make me feel… smarter. 😝🤣
I think this thread lives because it's hard to wrap a mind around why this is good for the marketplace.
The goal of the effort is to increase margins on commodities, yes modern coins are essentially commodities. The marketplace doesn't care what the effort costs, whether TV or this, it only cares that the goods are overpriced.
Pricing dislocation is bad for the marketplace, it artificially extracts more money for a commodity that sells for less in most other venues.
What is good about this scenario for the marketplace? Unhappy consumers are good for the market? TV buyers paying exhorbitant prices is a good thing?
It happens in sports cards so its OK?
Sorry, indefensible.
I 1,000,000% agree with all of your sentiments, but the thread lives because a few people who are smart enough not to sink their own money into it feel the need to post about it, support it, defend it, and attack people with an opposing point of view who will not allow them to have the final word.
A compulsion to get the last word, and to start a new conversation every time something stirs in VB World, is why this thread lives and new threads will spring up whenever there is anything new to report.
“A compulsion to get the last word…”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes. I haven't started a single one of these threads. I have no need to talk about VB at all, but I am not going to sit by and watch people with no skin in the game make posts promoting it without responding.
They cannot control themselves from starting these threads, or allow any negative response to go unanswered. Note all of the out of context posts from them serving no purpose other than to make a snide reference to me. If there is nothing interesting or noteworthy in those posts, I let them go.
The thread is not going to end until they stop, or until someone complains and gets it shut down. I particularly love how Freddie got his own prior threads shut down, blamed me for it (by not conforming to his wishes about what can and cannot be posted in his threads), and only recently owned up to having made the complaints himself.
Yes. They started an unnecessary thread devoted to a survey sent out by a coin dealer. Over 300 posts in, it continues because I am not allowed to have the last word. Neither is anyone else who has anything negative to say about VB. I have just been the most vocal and persistent player, but you should note that I am never the one starting, provoking, nor breaking a lull in the action.