It looks as if a few of you are having a contest to see who can get the last word. If you haven’t made your points by now, it’s highly doubtful that you’ll be able to. And if you have (multiple times), why keep going? Please don’t answer.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sounds like the kind of thing someone who wants to have the last word would say.
To be fair, it was also his first words in the thread....hmmmm... that means he could win the last word prize with only one post. That hardly seems fair.
@MFeld said:
It looks as if a few of you are having a contest to see who can get the last word. If you haven’t made your points by now, it’s highly doubtful that you’ll be able to. And if you have (multiple times), why keep going? Please don’t answer.😉
Because they need to promote, they can't countenance opposition, and they can't leave any negative comment unrefuted. That's why.
That's why every murmur from VB warrants a new thread, even though the cat is now out of the bag. The excitement is gone, and most people who dabbled have been left unsatisfied.
Nevertheless, a small handful of members with absolutely no skin in the game are compelled to continue to tout to anyone who has been comatose for the past month, and cannot tolerate anyone expressing negative views.
You are 1,000,000% correct. VB has been exposed for what it is. Fans have their opinions, detractors have theirs. No one needs to be educated, and no minds are going to be changed.
These threads are entirely unnecessary. However, as long as people feel compelled to start new threads touting, I feel compelled to contribute my thoughts so that the promotion also does not go unrefuted.
Apparently because I am some kind of "elitist." Whatever. We'll see who gets tired first. I don't think it's going to be me, but I do understand that these guys have well deserved reputations to uphold. 😎
1.
attempt to sell (something), typically by pestering people in an aggressive or bold manner:
"Jim was touting his wares"
2.
offer racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
noun
1.
a person soliciting custom or business, typically in an aggressive or bold manner.
2.
a person who offers racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
I told you once.
No you haven't.
Yes I have.
When?
Just now.
No you didn't.
Yes I did.
You didn't
I did!
You didn't!
I'm telling you I did!
You did not!!
Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
Oh, just the five minutes.
Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
1.
attempt to sell (something), typically by pestering people in an aggressive or bold manner:
"Jim was touting his wares"
2.
offer racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
noun
1.
a person soliciting custom or business, typically in an aggressive or bold manner.
2.
a person who offers racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
It’s also a snitch if you live in Northern Ireland.
1.
attempt to sell (something), typically by pestering people in an aggressive or bold manner:
"Jim was touting his wares"
2.
offer racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
noun
1.
a person soliciting custom or business, typically in an aggressive or bold manner.
2.
a person who offers racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
It’s also a snitch if you live in Northern Ireland.
1.
attempt to sell (something), typically by pestering people in an aggressive or bold manner:
"Jim was touting his wares"
2.
offer racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
noun
1.
a person soliciting custom or business, typically in an aggressive or bold manner.
2.
a person who offers racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
Yup.
Keep starting new threads every time any news comes out from VB. Post links to interviews with their executives marketing the product. Express support for the product, highlighting so-called benefits, without regard to negatives. Attack anyone who has anything negative to say.
In other words, tout. FINALLY, we have found grounds for agreement.
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
When I find myself in a numismatic conundrum/debate, I often ask myself, “what would Laura do?” Her logic here would be spot on here: No sticker, NGC, and a modern? 🤮 Numismatic mystery box? 🤮🤮
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
@cameonut2011 said:
When I find myself in a numismatic conundrum/debate, I often ask myself, “what would Laura do?” Her logic here would be spot on here: No sticker, NGC, and a modern? 🤮 Numismatic mystery box? 🤮🤮
Yeah, but, with all due respect, her market is about closely related to the modern bullion market as the modern bullion market is to sports cards. I get and respect where she would be coming from, but it has no relevance to this.
Someone in another thread thought he stumbled onto something with a website selling grab bags, thinking it was spawned by VB. I explained that one thing really had nothing to do with the other. Laura would hate them as well, but grab bags have a market and have their place.
They are not terrible, because they usually deliver solid value for people interested in that sort of thing. You don't know exactly what you are going to get, which is the "fun," but there is no lottery aspect to them. You generally get retail value around equal to what you pay.
So, at least from my perspective, the issue is not the mystery box aspect. It's the wildly inflated selling price relative to the aggregate value of the pool, and the unsupervised, unregulated manner of distribution, which led to the perceived or actual inequities in who received what in the first series.
They did what they did to generate buzz through viral internet marketing, and now they have a perception problem they need to address. So far, they seem to know what they are doing in terms of reaching their target market. It remains to be seen if their efforts at damage control will be successful, or if they turned off their audience.
My sense, based on what I've seen, is that they did not achieve a lot of traction in bringing in people from the sports card market who are not already involved in coins. Lots of coin collectors were turned off when they opened their boxes.
OTOH, lots of people surely got excited by a 30 minute sell out, and 100%+ premiums on eBay, so I suspect there will be another quick sell out. The question then will be whether their customers are end users or flippers. If it's the latter, they will get burned when there is no secondary market at double an already rip-off price. TBD.
@jmlanzaf said:
I may start touting VB just to annoy people.
Just to annoy people? Some might say that ship has sailed...
LOL. Well, previously it was accidental not intentional.
I doubt anything you do is not intentional. It's all good. Others might be, but I'm not annoyed at all. I respect your right to express yourself every bit as much as I assert my right to do the same.
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
That's different.
How? I’m gambling on getting a card that can be worth $10k or more depending on condition when I’ll probably get about $500 in common cards.
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
That's different.
How? I’m gambling on getting a card that can be worth $10k or more depending on condition when I’ll probably get about $500 in common cards.
I was joking. Every time I mentioned hobby boxes, they told me those were different and didn't count.
I don't actually understand why they don't just object to hobby boxes also. It seems intellectually simpler than trying to exclude them.
They also seem to want to pretend that you can't lose a ton of money on a hobby box, far more than on a VB.
I never did anything with hobby boxes or VB, but I do recognize that hobby boxes are where VB took the model. Not really hard to come to that understanding since they said it themselves. Lol. And i don't care where anyone spends their money. You want to dump $18,000 on a Panini prizm hobby box, have fun!
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
That's different.
How? I’m gambling on getting a card that can be worth $10k or more depending on condition when I’ll probably get about $500 in common cards.
I was joking. Every time I mentioned hobby boxes, they told me those were different and didn't count.
I don't actually understand why they don't just object to hobby boxes also. It seems intellectually simpler than trying to exclude them.
They also seem to want to pretend that you can't lose a ton of money on a hobby box, far more than on a VB.
I never did anything with hobby boxes or VB, but I do recognize that hobby boxes are where VB took the model. Not really hard to come to that understanding since they said it themselves. Lol. And i don't care where anyone spends their money. You want to dump $18,000 on a Panini prizm hobby box, have fun!
I honestly don't get your obsession with hobby boxes. It doesn't matter to me at all that that's where they got the idea from.
I'm not "objecting" to hobby boxes because they are not on my radar. I'm not a card collector.
I'm not opposed to gambling, but I think unregulated games of chance with no independent oversight are an invitation to disappointment. Most people who participated in Series 1 now know exactly what I am talking about, although I should get some credit for spotting the issue even before the first unboxing video was posted to YouTube.
For the umpteenth time, I also don't "object" to VB. For the reasons stated a gazillion times, I just think the value just isn't there. Continually asking why people "object" to this and not that is nothing more than deflecting. This is a coin forum, and we are coin collectors. We are expressing opinions about this. Playing "what about that?", whatever "that" is, is pointless.
I won''t touch VB because it's a bad deal, and that would be true even if there was independent oversight. Absent independent oversight, the average person buying one is literally throwing away money, as hundreds of average people learned the hard way a few weeks ago. If the economics are similar with hobby boxes, I wouldn't go near them for the same reason, if I was a card collector. Happy now?
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
Don't forget that an empty box of 86 Fleer sells for a few hundred dollars. The wrappers sell for $40 each and up. Not sure if the Vault Box commands such a premium.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
Don't forget that an empty box of 86 Fleer sells for a few hundred dollars. The wrappers sell for $40 each and up. Not sure if the Vault Box commands such a premium.
The 86 Fleer wasn't selling for that much in 1986.
Also if, and granted it's a big if, you were fortunate enough to have one of those 2-3 Jordan rookies graded a PSA 10 you are looking at $100K and up value. The Vault Box coins are already graded so you know their limited value right when you open the box.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
Don't forget that an empty box of 86 Fleer sells for a few hundred dollars. The wrappers sell for $40 each and up. Not sure if the Vault Box commands such a premium.
The 86 Fleer wasn't selling for that much in 1986.
Let's give VaultBox 37 years to catch up!🤣😂
Back in 1986-87 the packs sold for .79 cents IIRC. No one really wanted them. My dealer friend bought his complete set with stickers for $5.00 in 1986.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Also if, and granted it's a big if, you were fortunate enough to have one of those 2-3 Jordan rookies graded a PSA 10 you are looking at $100K and up value. The Vault Box coins are already graded so you know their limited value right when you open the box.
Okay, but that possibility is reflected in the price of the packs, isn't it?
To me, the difference is that those packs were organically created in 1986, and the price today merely reflects the probability of pulling various cards in the series, and their current market value, taking into account the possibility of getting cards that will grade well.
VB is different because the boxes are being seeded in real time, their issue price is controlled by their manufacturer, and represents a significant premium to the current market value of the average value of their contents, and there is no third party guarantee that distribution of valuable boxes is not being manipulated.
Other than that, yeah, they're exactly the same. 🤣
I soooooo hope they come out with one that I want to buy. Or maybe I'll create my own. I have about 750 slabs on hand. I could make some 3 slab $50 boxes. Unfortunately, they wouldn't be NGCX. But maybe there's a market for $50 to $100 coin hobby boxes.
I wonder if ebay would shut me down. > @BLUEJAYWAY said:
Also if, and granted it's a big if, you were fortunate enough to have one of those 2-3 Jordan rookies graded a PSA 10 you are looking at $100K and up value. The Vault Box coins are already graded so you know their limited value right when you open the box.
That's called "enticement" and I'm told that makes it worse not better. At least one forum member says that the fact that you could win $20k with the VB makes it worse not better.
And how is that different? $600 to win $20k or $7000 to win $100k. That makes VB a better lottery ticket with better odds. Your chance of a PSA10 is certainly far less than 1 in 800.
@3stars said:
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
Don't forget that an empty box of 86 Fleer sells for a few hundred dollars. The wrappers sell for $40 each and up. Not sure if the Vault Box commands such a premium.
Actually the empty VB boxes have been selling for "wrapper prices".
@Onastone said:
Vaultbox 2 may contain: 1 coin, 1 medal, 1 star note, 1 sports card, and 1 comic book.
That would be interesting. It'd be huge with the comic book.
All kidding aside, I wonder what kind of cross- pollination would ensue.
Likely none. Most people want what they want, and resent being forced to buy bundles with things they don't want. That's what's driving cable TV cord cutting.
Borrowing from the gambling aspect of hobby boxes was an interesting idea, and might be successful if coin collectors enjoy that sort of thing to the extent card collectors do. But thinking that it would magically turn card collectors into coin collectors, because all they really are are consumers of hidden things in sealed boxes, was probably always wishful thinking, if that was even the thought behind it. Another reason why I don't think the 10 point grading scale is not going to gain any traction.
@Onastone said:
Vaultbox 2 may contain: 1 coin, 1 medal, 1 star note, 1 sports card, and 1 comic book.
That would be interesting. It'd be huge with the comic book.
All kidding aside, I wonder what kind of cross- pollination would ensue.
Do you really want to attract people who would like that sort of thing to coin collecting?
Yes. People who collect often collect multiple things. You could actually get their obsession directed at coins. They can always sell or trade the items they don't want.
@tcollects said:
Has anyone here bought one and what was in it?
I bought one just for kicks and it shipped out the evening of 1/25, it was expected to be delivered the afternoon of 1/27 and ended up being delayed until 1/30. In between that time, the two most expensive coins were found and posted on reddit. In addition, I had watched few unboxing videos where the result was 3 silver eagles. My options were:
Open the box, and hope that I get one of the last 1-2k coins or the lone 4k coin, instead of 3 silver eagles valued around $300. If I did get 3 silver eagles, liquidate them or hold on to them in case the slabs becomes a collectible in their own right.
Save the box, sit on it and play the long game. (This option no longer made sense since two of the powerhouse coins had been found)
Sell the box on eBay immediately for $1050, and realize a a little more than a $300 profit after expenses.
@tcollects said:
Has anyone here bought one and what was in it?
I bought one just for kicks and it shipped out the evening of 1/25, it was expected to be delivered the afternoon of 1/27 and ended up being delayed until 1/30. In between that time, the two most expensive coins were found and posted on reddit. In addition, I had watched few unboxing videos where the result was 3 silver eagles. My options were:
Open the box, and hope that I get one of the last 1-2k coins or the lone 4k coin, instead of 3 silver eagles valued around $300. If I did get 3 silver eagles, liquidate them or hold on to them in case the slabs becomes a collectible in their own right.
Save the box, sit on it and play the long game. (This option no longer made sense since two of the powerhouse coins had been found)
Sell the box on eBay immediately for $1050, and realize a a little more than a $300 profit after expenses.
I went with option 3.
What are you thinking for the next round, given the muted reaction to Series 2 all over the place, including here? I admit it's tempting to try for a double on eBay, given what happened last time. But I wonder whether a lot of people are going to get the same idea, leading to a frenzy on release day, followed by dozens, or even hundreds, of listings on eBay with no takers.
And that's before the risk of getting stuck with an eBay return, which I didn't even realize was a thing with something like this, until others pointed it out. The one thing I'd hate to do is support these guys by buying something I don't even want, in anticipation of a flip, and then getting stuck with it. Any thoughts?
@tcollects said:
Has anyone here bought one and what was in it?
I bought one just for kicks and it shipped out the evening of 1/25, it was expected to be delivered the afternoon of 1/27 and ended up being delayed until 1/30. In between that time, the two most expensive coins were found and posted on reddit. In addition, I had watched few unboxing videos where the result was 3 silver eagles. My options were:
Open the box, and hope that I get one of the last 1-2k coins or the lone 4k coin, instead of 3 silver eagles valued around $300. If I did get 3 silver eagles, liquidate them or hold on to them in case the slabs becomes a collectible in their own right.
Save the box, sit on it and play the long game. (This option no longer made sense since two of the powerhouse coins had been found)
Sell the box on eBay immediately for $1050, and realize a a little more than a $300 profit after expenses.
I went with option 3.
What are you thinking for the next round, given the muted reaction to Series 2 all over the place, including here? I admit it's tempting to try for a double on eBay, given what happened last time. But I wonder whether a lot of people are going to get the same idea, leading to a frenzy on release day, followed by dozens, or even hundreds, of listings on eBay with no takers.
And that's before the risk of getting stuck with an eBay return, which I didn't even realize was a thing with something like this, until others pointed it out. The one thing I'd hate to do is support these guys by buying something I don't even want, in anticipation of a flip, and then getting stuck with it. Any thoughts?
When I say that I will likely do the same thing again, there was a reason I avoided speaking in absolutes. Around the time of the next launch, I will be observing reddit discussions, social media presence, and YouTube videos and comments surrounding the launch. I will see if they change the way the distribution works, and how easily ill even be able to buy one. Chances are, if its hard for me to even buy a box in the first place, there will be a decent secondary market at least for a short time. Even if the demand was severely reduced, I think the downside would probably be minimal, but its hard to make a determination at this point in time.
@tcollects said:
Has anyone here bought one and what was in it?
I bought one just for kicks and it shipped out the evening of 1/25, it was expected to be delivered the afternoon of 1/27 and ended up being delayed until 1/30. In between that time, the two most expensive coins were found and posted on reddit. In addition, I had watched few unboxing videos where the result was 3 silver eagles. My options were:
Open the box, and hope that I get one of the last 1-2k coins or the lone 4k coin, instead of 3 silver eagles valued around $300. If I did get 3 silver eagles, liquidate them or hold on to them in case the slabs becomes a collectible in their own right.
Save the box, sit on it and play the long game. (This option no longer made sense since two of the powerhouse coins had been found)
Sell the box on eBay immediately for $1050, and realize a a little more than a $300 profit after expenses.
I went with option 3.
What are you thinking for the next round, given the muted reaction to Series 2 all over the place, including here? I admit it's tempting to try for a double on eBay, given what happened last time. But I wonder whether a lot of people are going to get the same idea, leading to a frenzy on release day, followed by dozens, or even hundreds, of listings on eBay with no takers.
And that's before the risk of getting stuck with an eBay return, which I didn't even realize was a thing with something like this, until others pointed it out. The one thing I'd hate to do is support these guys by buying something I don't even want, in anticipation of a flip, and then getting stuck with it. Any thoughts?
When I say that I will likely do the same thing again, there was a reason I avoided speaking in absolutes. Around the time of the next launch, I will be observing reddit discussions, social media presence, and YouTube videos and comments surrounding the launch. I will see if they change the way the distribution works, and how easily ill even be able to buy one. Chances are, if its hard for me to even buy a box in the first place, there will be a decent secondary market at least for a short time. Even if the demand was severely reduced, I think the downside would probably be minimal, but its hard to make a determination at this point in time.
I agree, UNLESS the demand is primarily from people like you. In that case, there will not be a profitable exit, because there will be a demand/supply imbalance on eBay working against you, right from the outset.
The problem is, you won't know until after the fact. I do think there will be a lot of initial demand, because the only data point people will have will be the previous quick sell out.
Kind of like what happens at the Mint when people create sell outs with the intent to flip. Except in that case, if the flip doesn't materialize, they can cancel the purchase or return it. That won't be an option with these guys, will it?
@tcollects said:
Has anyone here bought one and what was in it?
I did, my results and pics are posted in one of the closed threads. I wasn't a "winner" (I came away with 2 ASE's and a 1/10 oz Gold Eagle all black cores). However, I achieved my goal (examples for my slab collection). While I did lose money, luckily the good Lord has blessed me and the financial hit was insignificant, no more than the cost of a good steak dinner with the family.
I even wrote a Haiku about it in the poetry contest thread.
Anyone who wants to is free to have at it. I just don't understand how they can possibly add even more value per box, since they were working on such small margins the first time around in order to get the product off to a rousing start.
It's also encouraging to see that after months of planning, they needed feedback to realize that paper and plastic covering various precious metal coins in various weights would allow motivated people to figure out differences between sealed boxes. Now, if only there was a way to document and audit how they are distributed. Maybe by Series 100. 🤣
Sounds like the US Mints "Vision statement"
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Anyone who wants to is free to have at it. I just don't understand how they can possibly add even more value per box, since they were working on such small margins the first time around in order to get the product off to a rousing start.
It's also encouraging to see that after months of planning, they needed feedback to realize that paper and plastic covering various precious metal coins in various weights would allow motivated people to figure out differences between sealed boxes. Now, if only there was a way to document and audit how they are distributed. Maybe by Series 100. 🤣
Sounds like the US Mints "Vision statement"
Yeah. The Mint is definitely going in the other direction, minimizing costs and maximizing revenue, at the expense of good value to its customers. Their goal is apparently to minimize flips and to keep more of the value of what they produce for the federal government.
Do people think $600 a box is too expensive for 3 random coins? Perhaps some do, but some are ready to buy them for over $1000 in the secondary market...
@Onastone said:
Do people think $600 a box is too expensive for 3 random coins? Perhaps some do, but some are ready to buy them for over $1000 in the secondary market...
Yup. It's not about expensive, it's about good value. The fact that some people are wiling to pay $1,000+ for ~$300 worth of coins does not make them a good deal at $600, unless you are guaranteed that you can turn around and flip them for $1,000+. If anyone is willing to make me that guarantee, I will be in for 2.
Comments
It's just really odd to me that they can't just dislike both VB and hobby boxes. I don't understand the need to consider them different.
One has coins, one doesn't. You have to collect coins the right way, you know.
It looks as if a few of you are having a contest to see who can get the last word. If you haven’t made your points by now, it’s highly doubtful that you’ll be able to. And if you have (multiple times), why keep going? Please don’t answer.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sounds like the kind of thing someone who wants to have the last word would say.
To be fair, it was also his first words in the thread....hmmmm... that means he could win the last word prize with only one post. That hardly seems fair.
Because they need to promote, they can't countenance opposition, and they can't leave any negative comment unrefuted. That's why.
That's why every murmur from VB warrants a new thread, even though the cat is now out of the bag. The excitement is gone, and most people who dabbled have been left unsatisfied.
Nevertheless, a small handful of members with absolutely no skin in the game are compelled to continue to tout to anyone who has been comatose for the past month, and cannot tolerate anyone expressing negative views.
You are 1,000,000% correct. VB has been exposed for what it is. Fans have their opinions, detractors have theirs. No one needs to be educated, and no minds are going to be changed.
These threads are entirely unnecessary. However, as long as people feel compelled to start new threads touting, I feel compelled to contribute my thoughts so that the promotion also does not go unrefuted.
Apparently because I am some kind of "elitist." Whatever. We'll see who gets tired first. I don't think it's going to be me, but I do understand that these guys have well deserved reputations to uphold. 😎
Tout
/tout/
verb
1.
attempt to sell (something), typically by pestering people in an aggressive or bold manner:
"Jim was touting his wares"
2.
offer racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
noun
1.
a person soliciting custom or business, typically in an aggressive or bold manner.
2.
a person who offers racing tips for a share of any resulting winnings.
North American
Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
I told you once.
No you haven't.
Yes I have.
When?
Just now.
No you didn't.
Yes I did.
You didn't
I did!
You didn't!
I'm telling you I did!
You did not!!
Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
Oh, just the five minutes.
Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
🤣👍
It’s also a snitch if you live in Northern Ireland.
Interesting.
Yup.
Keep starting new threads every time any news comes out from VB. Post links to interviews with their executives marketing the product. Express support for the product, highlighting so-called benefits, without regard to negatives. Attack anyone who has anything negative to say.
In other words, tout. FINALLY, we have found grounds for agreement.
You could right now drop $7000 on a single pack of 1986 Fleer Basketball cards in the hopes of getting a Michael Jordan rookie card that you by odds will not get, but people do it all the time. Or get a box of 36 packs to guarantee 2-3 of them for over $100k
When I find myself in a numismatic conundrum/debate, I often ask myself, “what would Laura do?” Her logic here would be spot on here: No sticker, NGC, and a modern? 🤮 Numismatic mystery box? 🤮🤮
That's different.
I may start touting VB just to annoy people. If I could just get a CAC sticker on one, I could really turn this place upside down.
Yeah, but, with all due respect, her market is about closely related to the modern bullion market as the modern bullion market is to sports cards. I get and respect where she would be coming from, but it has no relevance to this.
Someone in another thread thought he stumbled onto something with a website selling grab bags, thinking it was spawned by VB. I explained that one thing really had nothing to do with the other. Laura would hate them as well, but grab bags have a market and have their place.
They are not terrible, because they usually deliver solid value for people interested in that sort of thing. You don't know exactly what you are going to get, which is the "fun," but there is no lottery aspect to them. You generally get retail value around equal to what you pay.
So, at least from my perspective, the issue is not the mystery box aspect. It's the wildly inflated selling price relative to the aggregate value of the pool, and the unsupervised, unregulated manner of distribution, which led to the perceived or actual inequities in who received what in the first series.
They did what they did to generate buzz through viral internet marketing, and now they have a perception problem they need to address. So far, they seem to know what they are doing in terms of reaching their target market. It remains to be seen if their efforts at damage control will be successful, or if they turned off their audience.
My sense, based on what I've seen, is that they did not achieve a lot of traction in bringing in people from the sports card market who are not already involved in coins. Lots of coin collectors were turned off when they opened their boxes.
OTOH, lots of people surely got excited by a 30 minute sell out, and 100%+ premiums on eBay, so I suspect there will be another quick sell out. The question then will be whether their customers are end users or flippers. If it's the latter, they will get burned when there is no secondary market at double an already rip-off price. TBD.
Just to annoy people? Some might say that ship has sailed...
LOL. Well, previously it was accidental not intentional.
I doubt anything you do is not intentional. It's all good. Others might be, but I'm not annoyed at all. I respect your right to express yourself every bit as much as I assert my right to do the same.
VAULTBOX IS AWESOME!!!
How? I’m gambling on getting a card that can be worth $10k or more depending on condition when I’ll probably get about $500 in common cards.
I was joking. Every time I mentioned hobby boxes, they told me those were different and didn't count.
I don't actually understand why they don't just object to hobby boxes also. It seems intellectually simpler than trying to exclude them.
They also seem to want to pretend that you can't lose a ton of money on a hobby box, far more than on a VB.
I never did anything with hobby boxes or VB, but I do recognize that hobby boxes are where VB took the model. Not really hard to come to that understanding since they said it themselves. Lol. And i don't care where anyone spends their money. You want to dump $18,000 on a Panini prizm hobby box, have fun!
I honestly don't get your obsession with hobby boxes. It doesn't matter to me at all that that's where they got the idea from.
I'm not "objecting" to hobby boxes because they are not on my radar. I'm not a card collector.
I'm not opposed to gambling, but I think unregulated games of chance with no independent oversight are an invitation to disappointment. Most people who participated in Series 1 now know exactly what I am talking about, although I should get some credit for spotting the issue even before the first unboxing video was posted to YouTube.
For the umpteenth time, I also don't "object" to VB. For the reasons stated a gazillion times, I just think the value just isn't there. Continually asking why people "object" to this and not that is nothing more than deflecting. This is a coin forum, and we are coin collectors. We are expressing opinions about this. Playing "what about that?", whatever "that" is, is pointless.
I won''t touch VB because it's a bad deal, and that would be true even if there was independent oversight. Absent independent oversight, the average person buying one is literally throwing away money, as hundreds of average people learned the hard way a few weeks ago. If the economics are similar with hobby boxes, I wouldn't go near them for the same reason, if I was a card collector. Happy now?
Don't forget that an empty box of 86 Fleer sells for a few hundred dollars. The wrappers sell for $40 each and up. Not sure if the Vault Box commands such a premium.
The 86 Fleer wasn't selling for that much in 1986.
Let's give VaultBox 37 years to catch up!🤣😂
Also if, and granted it's a big if, you were fortunate enough to have one of those 2-3 Jordan rookies graded a PSA 10 you are looking at $100K and up value. The Vault Box coins are already graded so you know their limited value right when you open the box.
Back in 1986-87 the packs sold for .79 cents IIRC. No one really wanted them. My dealer friend bought his complete set with stickers for $5.00 in 1986.
Okay, but that possibility is reflected in the price of the packs, isn't it?
To me, the difference is that those packs were organically created in 1986, and the price today merely reflects the probability of pulling various cards in the series, and their current market value, taking into account the possibility of getting cards that will grade well.
VB is different because the boxes are being seeded in real time, their issue price is controlled by their manufacturer, and represents a significant premium to the current market value of the average value of their contents, and there is no third party guarantee that distribution of valuable boxes is not being manipulated.
Other than that, yeah, they're exactly the same. 🤣
I soooooo hope they come out with one that I want to buy. Or maybe I'll create my own. I have about 750 slabs on hand. I could make some 3 slab $50 boxes. Unfortunately, they wouldn't be NGCX. But maybe there's a market for $50 to $100 coin hobby boxes.
I wonder if ebay would shut me down. > @BLUEJAYWAY said:
That's called "enticement" and I'm told that makes it worse not better. At least one forum member says that the fact that you could win $20k with the VB makes it worse not better.
And how is that different? $600 to win $20k or $7000 to win $100k. That makes VB a better lottery ticket with better odds. Your chance of a PSA10 is certainly far less than 1 in 800.
Actually the empty VB boxes have been selling for "wrapper prices".
Vaultbox 2 may contain: 1 coin, 1 medal, 1 star note, 1 sports card, and 1 comic book.
That would be interesting. It'd be huge with the comic book.
All kidding aside, I wonder what kind of cross- pollination would ensue.
Likely none. Most people want what they want, and resent being forced to buy bundles with things they don't want. That's what's driving cable TV cord cutting.
Borrowing from the gambling aspect of hobby boxes was an interesting idea, and might be successful if coin collectors enjoy that sort of thing to the extent card collectors do. But thinking that it would magically turn card collectors into coin collectors, because all they really are are consumers of hidden things in sealed boxes, was probably always wishful thinking, if that was even the thought behind it. Another reason why I don't think the 10 point grading scale is not going to gain any traction.
Do you really want to attract people who would like that sort of thing to coin collecting?
Yes. People who collect often collect multiple things. You could actually get their obsession directed at coins. They can always sell or trade the items they don't want.
Has anyone here bought one and what was in it?
I have decided that I am going to participate in the 2nd run of this 100X more than I did the first time (100 x 0 = 0)!
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
You can check out their website and Ebay completed auctions.
https://vaultbox.com/
I bought one just for kicks and it shipped out the evening of 1/25, it was expected to be delivered the afternoon of 1/27 and ended up being delayed until 1/30. In between that time, the two most expensive coins were found and posted on reddit. In addition, I had watched few unboxing videos where the result was 3 silver eagles. My options were:
Open the box, and hope that I get one of the last 1-2k coins or the lone 4k coin, instead of 3 silver eagles valued around $300. If I did get 3 silver eagles, liquidate them or hold on to them in case the slabs becomes a collectible in their own right.
Save the box, sit on it and play the long game. (This option no longer made sense since two of the powerhouse coins had been found)
Sell the box on eBay immediately for $1050, and realize a a little more than a $300 profit after expenses.
I went with option 3.
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What are you thinking for the next round, given the muted reaction to Series 2 all over the place, including here? I admit it's tempting to try for a double on eBay, given what happened last time. But I wonder whether a lot of people are going to get the same idea, leading to a frenzy on release day, followed by dozens, or even hundreds, of listings on eBay with no takers.
And that's before the risk of getting stuck with an eBay return, which I didn't even realize was a thing with something like this, until others pointed it out. The one thing I'd hate to do is support these guys by buying something I don't even want, in anticipation of a flip, and then getting stuck with it. Any thoughts?
And your expected gain is $300 (0 - -300 = 300)
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When I say that I will likely do the same thing again, there was a reason I avoided speaking in absolutes. Around the time of the next launch, I will be observing reddit discussions, social media presence, and YouTube videos and comments surrounding the launch. I will see if they change the way the distribution works, and how easily ill even be able to buy one. Chances are, if its hard for me to even buy a box in the first place, there will be a decent secondary market at least for a short time. Even if the demand was severely reduced, I think the downside would probably be minimal, but its hard to make a determination at this point in time.
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I agree, UNLESS the demand is primarily from people like you. In that case, there will not be a profitable exit, because there will be a demand/supply imbalance on eBay working against you, right from the outset.
The problem is, you won't know until after the fact. I do think there will be a lot of initial demand, because the only data point people will have will be the previous quick sell out.
Kind of like what happens at the Mint when people create sell outs with the intent to flip. Except in that case, if the flip doesn't materialize, they can cancel the purchase or return it. That won't be an option with these guys, will it?
I did, my results and pics are posted in one of the closed threads. I wasn't a "winner" (I came away with 2 ASE's and a 1/10 oz Gold Eagle all black cores). However, I achieved my goal (examples for my slab collection). While I did lose money, luckily the good Lord has blessed me and the financial hit was insignificant, no more than the cost of a good steak dinner with the family.
I even wrote a Haiku about it in the poetry contest thread.
Philippians 4:4-7
Sounds like the US Mints "Vision statement"
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Yeah. The Mint is definitely going in the other direction, minimizing costs and maximizing revenue, at the expense of good value to its customers. Their goal is apparently to minimize flips and to keep more of the value of what they produce for the federal government.
Do people think $600 a box is too expensive for 3 random coins? Perhaps some do, but some are ready to buy them for over $1000 in the secondary market...
Yup. It's not about expensive, it's about good value. The fact that some people are wiling to pay $1,000+ for ~$300 worth of coins does not make them a good deal at $600, unless you are guaranteed that you can turn around and flip them for $1,000+. If anyone is willing to make me that guarantee, I will be in for 2.