@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
Lets be clear on the risk to modern coin perception in the marketplace.
The risk is not the 10 point scale or the potential animus created with Sheldon scale collectors.
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers. Obviously that is the concern going forward. The parties involved will water down the disparate valuations to mitigate potential hard feelings as they wind down the commitment IMO.
At least they have the gumption to advertise loose slots.
@Namvet69 said:
Maybe they'll throw some lead sinkers in the boxes to futz with the weight issue.
Aren't the generic ASEs already covering that?
@NJCoin said:
While there are only so many people who will be impressed with having less than $200 worth of gold thrown into their $600 box along with 2 ounces of silver, Magic Mike keeps showing up on HSN selling slabbed silver bullion for over $100 per ounce, so there absolutely is a market for this. It is more than a little surprising that there would be a receptive market for something like that on Collectors Universe, but, whatever. Please forgive me for saying this, but you really do seem more like a shill than a customer.
Have to wonder... 2 of his original three threads got shutdown once people starting piling on the negatives. And he's back at it...
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
At least they have the gumption to advertise loose slots.
@Namvet69 said:
Maybe they'll throw some lead sinkers in the boxes to futz with the weight issue.
Aren't the generic ASEs already covering that?
@NJCoin said:
While there are only so many people who will be impressed with having less than $200 worth of gold thrown into their $600 box along with 2 ounces of silver, Magic Mike keeps showing up on HSN selling slabbed silver bullion for over $100 per ounce, so there absolutely is a market for this. It is more than a little surprising that there would be a receptive market for something like that on Collectors Universe, but, whatever. Please forgive me for saying this, but you really do seem more like a shill than a customer.
Have to wonder... 2 of his original three threads got shutdown once people starting piling on the negatives. And he's back at it...
Why are we blaming him for the fact that other members of the forum can't abide by forum rules? It's not hard to simply not impugn the integrity of a corporation. People could just ignore the thread and go back to driving newbies away by rudely answering their questions.
@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty because I have no proof. I said there were red flags.
Think it odd if you must, but obviously I made my purchase before these red flags surfaced. I made my purchase wanting to collect the plastic, hoping for a score, thinking the distribution was going to be completely random and fair. My box was in transit when the first coin showed up on ebay. Had I known, maybe I would have stayed away completely.
Do I think they would intentionally risk it all over $1,000? No. Do I think they could have possibly made some poor decisions? Maybe. I don't believe in coincidences, but I suppose miracles do happen so let's consider the series of fortunate events that had to occur.
The "demo" box coins had to be sent back to NGC for repackaging/sealing.
The repackaged box had to make its way into the pre-sale lot, not the "normal" lot designated for the unwashed masses, and then shipped out early.
The repackaged box from the pre-sale lot then had to be sent to a coin dealer in Nebraska and not some random Joe from Oklahoma.
Is it possible all these things occurred? Yes. Is it probable? IDK, I also find it peculiar that the fortunate dealer who received the repackaged box from the pre-sale lot never listed the other two coins from the box on ebay.
@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty because I have no proof. I said there were red flags.
Think it odd if you must, but obviously I made my purchase before these red flags surfaced. I made my purchase wanting to collect the plastic, hoping for a score, thinking the distribution was going to be completely random and fair. My box was in transit when the first coin showed up on ebay. Had I known, maybe I would have stayed away completely.
Do I think they would intentionally risk it all over $1,000? No. Do I think they could have possibly made some poor decisions? Maybe. I don't believe in coincidences, but I suppose miracles do happen so let's consider the series of fortunate events that had to occur.
The "demo" box coins had to be sent back to NGC for repackaging/sealing.
The repackaged box had to make its way into the pre-sale lot, not the "normal" lot designated for the unwashed masses, and then shipped out early.
The repackaged box from the pre-sale lot then had to be sent to a coin dealer in Nebraska and not some random Joe from Oklahoma.
Is it possible all these things occurred? Yes. Is it probable? IDK, I also find it peculiar that the fortunate dealer who received the repackaged box from the pre-sale lot never listed the other two coins from the box on ebay.
Honestly, I don't know. But I shy away from accusations without proof. Couldn't the dealer have sold the other 2 coins locally? I don't sell everything on eBay and I don't even have a BM store.
Regardless, I have no problem with everyone doing whatever they want.
@NJCoin said:
While there are only so many people who will be impressed with having less than $200 worth of gold thrown into their $600 box along with 2 ounces of silver, Magic Mike keeps showing up on HSN selling slabbed silver bullion for over $100 per ounce, so there absolutely is a market for this. It is more than a little surprising that there would be a receptive market for something like that on Collectors Universe, but, whatever. Please forgive me for saying this, but you really do seem more like a shill than a customer.
Have to wonder... 2 of his original three threads got shutdown once people starting piling on the negatives. And he's back at it...
I would appreciate the clarification of if your comment is referring to me or NJCoin.🤔
@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty because I have no proof. I said there were red flags.
Think it odd if you must, but obviously I made my purchase before these red flags surfaced. I made my purchase wanting to collect the plastic, hoping for a score, thinking the distribution was going to be completely random and fair. My box was in transit when the first coin showed up on ebay. Had I known, maybe I would have stayed away completely.
Do I think they would intentionally risk it all over $1,000? No. Do I think they could have possibly made some poor decisions? Maybe. I don't believe in coincidences, but I suppose miracles do happen so let's consider the series of fortunate events that had to occur.
The "demo" box coins had to be sent back to NGC for repackaging/sealing.
The repackaged box had to make its way into the pre-sale lot, not the "normal" lot designated for the unwashed masses, and then shipped out early.
The repackaged box from the pre-sale lot then had to be sent to a coin dealer in Nebraska and not some random Joe from Oklahoma.
Is it possible all these things occurred? Yes. Is it probable? IDK, I also find it peculiar that the fortunate dealer who received the repackaged box from the pre-sale lot never listed the other two coins from the box on ebay.
Honestly, I don't know. But I shy away from accusations without proof. Couldn't the dealer have sold the other 2 coins locally? I don't sell everything on eBay and I don't even have a BM store.
Regardless, I have no problem with everyone doing whatever they want.
@jmlanzaf I have been reading your posts for years so I know that you are a highly intelligent person. Because I have read your posts for years I also know that I won't be able to coax it out of you. However, I also know that you are not this obtuse.
I never made any accusations. I just said there were red flags. I also don't have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want (within the bounds of legality of course) as long as everything is above board. I would also hope that you would agree that with an endeavor such as this everything needs to be above reproach, and that is not the case. Regardless of how it happened, several things occurred that don't look good.
With that said, I am fine with my purchase. I spent some of my entertainment budget on entertainment and came away with three PM coins. I also wish VB the best of luck with their future releases, but I hope that they put some measures into place in order to prevent any look of impropriety.
@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty because I have no proof. I said there were red flags.
Think it odd if you must, but obviously I made my purchase before these red flags surfaced. I made my purchase wanting to collect the plastic, hoping for a score, thinking the distribution was going to be completely random and fair. My box was in transit when the first coin showed up on ebay. Had I known, maybe I would have stayed away completely.
Do I think they would intentionally risk it all over $1,000? No. Do I think they could have possibly made some poor decisions? Maybe. I don't believe in coincidences, but I suppose miracles do happen so let's consider the series of fortunate events that had to occur.
The "demo" box coins had to be sent back to NGC for repackaging/sealing.
The repackaged box had to make its way into the pre-sale lot, not the "normal" lot designated for the unwashed masses, and then shipped out early.
The repackaged box from the pre-sale lot then had to be sent to a coin dealer in Nebraska and not some random Joe from Oklahoma.
Is it possible all these things occurred? Yes. Is it probable? IDK, I also find it peculiar that the fortunate dealer who received the repackaged box from the pre-sale lot never listed the other two coins from the box on ebay.
Honestly, I don't know. But I shy away from accusations without proof. Couldn't the dealer have sold the other 2 coins locally? I don't sell everything on eBay and I don't even have a BM store.
Regardless, I have no problem with everyone doing whatever they want.
@jmlanzaf I have been reading your posts for years so I know that you are a highly intelligent person. Because I have read your posts for years I also know that I won't be able to coax it out of you. However, I also know that you are not this obtuse.
I never made any accusations. I just said there were red flags. I also don't have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want (within the bounds of legality of course) as long as everything is above board. I would also hope that you would agree that with an endeavor such as this everything needs to be above reproach, and that is not the case. Regardless of how it happened, several things occurred that don't look good.
With that said, I am fine with my purchase. I spent some of my entertainment budget on entertainment and came away with three PM coins. I also wish VB the best of luck with their future releases, but I hope that they put some measures into place in order to prevent any look of impropriety.
Hmmm...obtuse? It's really more a question of where the benefit of the doubt lies. You have to assume that VB and/or their "insiders" are obtuse. I could easily "sell" all my good stuff to my mother before release, but you can bet I would tell my mother to sit on it until well after release...especially if one of the coins was featured prominently in a promotional video.
I'm not saying it's a good look. But, isn't it two different dealers: the promotional video and the eBay seller? To me "red flag" says "stop, there's a problem". I just don't think this rises to that level. But, you can disagree. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.
@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
Red flags are all over the place. The single coin is just the most shining example, and the one that would be easiest to prove if there was ever litigation, since there would have to be a paper trail from VB to PWCC, back to VB, to NGC, and then back to VB for random distribution.
There would need to be documentation that demo boxes were actually created by NGC, etc., etc., etc. HIGHLY unlikely that any of that actually occurred, especially since the demo was not identified as a demo until people on YouTube started asking questions.
To me, the red flag is that distribution is not supervised and audited by a third party, like the grading and sealing of the boxes are. It never occurred to the sponsors during months of planning that the contents of sealed boxes could be identified by weight and metallic composition, although the dopes on the internet figured that out in a nanosecond?
I'm not sure that anyone intended to steal from anyone, but, if each coin identified on the website was not available for random distribution to all purchasers, that would be the effect, and it looks like that's exactly what happened. From the outside looking in, you don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to form an opinion, or even to make an accusation. Conviction is a different story. That's what trials are for. But, to say accusations are out of bounds without irrefutable proof is just nonsense.
I think the point was to gin up excitement by getting winning boxes in the hands of internet influencers. Mission accomplished. Now we are in the perception cleanup phase prior to the release of Series 2. Believe what you want, say what you want, and react to my comments how you want. The fact that you are not a buyer speaks louder than anything else you have to say about this.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
To be honest, I am not unhappy at all. You don't see me starting any threads about this. I just feel compelled to add a little balance whenever I see a cheerleading thread pop up. In terms of convincing anyone to do, or not do, anything, personally I am way past that.
Yes, in the beginning I identified a few things that I thought might be problematic. And yes, I thought that everyone might not identify them. So, I thought I was providing a little information to add to the mix for people to consider. Again, we are now way past that. Everyone can see what this is, and everyone is free to believe whatever they want, and to spend their money however they want.
Opinions have been formed, and they are not changing. What's weird is that the most vocal supporters are not affiliates of VB, or customers. Yet the need to keep starting new threads on the topic expressing support continues unabated, even after getting their own previous threads shut down. I don't begrudge anyone their point of view, although I do question the hypocrisy in being so strident in support of something that, for whatever reason, they choose not to participate in themselves.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
I can't speak for them, but, perhaps, if Topps sent out pre-release boxes to internet influencers that contained rare winners, you'd see a similar reaction.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
I can't speak for them, but, perhaps, if Topps sent out pre-release boxes to internet influencers that contained rare winners, you'd see a similar reaction.
Puh-lease. You were complaining about these BEFORE that happened. That was not your issue. Your issue was/is exactly what occurs in the card boxes all the time.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Look harder. The card boxes go for a much as $1000
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
I can't speak for them, but, perhaps, if Topps sent out pre-release boxes to internet influencers that contained rare winners, you'd see a similar reaction.
Puh-lease. You were complaining about these BEFORE that happened. That was not your issue. Your issue was/is exactly what occurs in the card boxes all the time.
What do you mean "Puh-lease"? You mentioned that card collectors didn't complain. I was giving you a possible reason as to why, that has nothing to do with my myriad issues with the offering!
You sure didn't hear me complain that I was robbed, and I doubt a lot of the internet complainers would have been complaining about the issues I identified before the release if the potential inequity in distribution didn't manifest itself in such an obvious manner, right in their face, as part of the pre-release marketing blitz.
Topps is a helluva lot more slick and sophisticated than VB. Its business is a lot more mature. And, as @fathom pointed out, expectations are different in that market. That's why they don't complain while VB customers do.
P.S. The fact that the markets are different is a leading indicator that NGCX is not going to lead to a revolution in coin grading. If anyone actually gets introduced to coins through this, soon enough they'll get a cheat sheet with a 9.0-10 to 60-70 conversion chart (because, without one, the conversion will be impossible for most to wrap their heads around 🤣), and life as we know it will continue. Coins will not be moving to a 10 point grading scale in our lifetimes.
@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty because I have no proof. I said there were red flags.
Think it odd if you must, but obviously I made my purchase before these red flags surfaced. I made my purchase wanting to collect the plastic, hoping for a score, thinking the distribution was going to be completely random and fair. My box was in transit when the first coin showed up on ebay. Had I known, maybe I would have stayed away completely.
Do I think they would intentionally risk it all over $1,000? No. Do I think they could have possibly made some poor decisions? Maybe. I don't believe in coincidences, but I suppose miracles do happen so let's consider the series of fortunate events that had to occur.
The "demo" box coins had to be sent back to NGC for repackaging/sealing.
The repackaged box had to make its way into the pre-sale lot, not the "normal" lot designated for the unwashed masses, and then shipped out early.
The repackaged box from the pre-sale lot then had to be sent to a coin dealer in Nebraska and not some random Joe from Oklahoma.
Is it possible all these things occurred? Yes. Is it probable? IDK, I also find it peculiar that the fortunate dealer who received the repackaged box from the pre-sale lot never listed the other two coins from the box on ebay.
Honestly, I don't know. But I shy away from accusations without proof. Couldn't the dealer have sold the other 2 coins locally? I don't sell everything on eBay and I don't even have a BM store.
Regardless, I have no problem with everyone doing whatever they want.
@jmlanzaf I have been reading your posts for years so I know that you are a highly intelligent person. Because I have read your posts for years I also know that I won't be able to coax it out of you. However, I also know that you are not this obtuse.
I never made any accusations. I just said there were red flags. I also don't have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want (within the bounds of legality of course) as long as everything is above board. I would also hope that you would agree that with an endeavor such as this everything needs to be above reproach, and that is not the case. Regardless of how it happened, several things occurred that don't look good.
With that said, I am fine with my purchase. I spent some of my entertainment budget on entertainment and came away with three PM coins. I also wish VB the best of luck with their future releases, but I hope that they put some measures into place in order to prevent any look of impropriety.
Hmmm...obtuse? It's really more a question of where the benefit of the doubt lies. You have to assume that VB and/or their "insiders" are obtuse. I could easily "sell" all my good stuff to my mother before release, but you can bet I would tell my mother to sit on it until well after release...especially if one of the coins was featured prominently in a promotional video.
I'm not saying it's a good look. But, isn't it two different dealers: the promotional video and the eBay seller? To me "red flag" says "stop, there's a problem". I just don't think this rises to that level. But, you can disagree. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.
Maybe they are obtuse. I won't repeat in detail all of the "missteps" that have been listed ad nauseum. However, when you consider the pre-sale, the "demo" box that originally wasn't, the fact that they didn't take into account weight or metal content, the possibility that they may be obtuse certainly is a consideration.
Edited to add: That or they considered their target audience to be...
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Look harder. The card boxes go for a much as $1000
OK so there are expensive boxes. Most that I saw had specific item contents matching box valuation.
@jmlanzaf said:
The joke is, there's no right answer.
The people who are trying to tell you how to spend your money think there is.
Except they all have a different "right" answer. Even on VB, we have one member who doesn't like them but wants to flip them. We have another member who doesn't like them but wants to collect the plastic.
I never said I didn't like them. They have their niche, and power to them. I just raised some obvious red flags, which like them or not I don't think you can dispute.
I don't really see "red flags". They are what they are. I think everyone who plays the lottery knows it's a lottery.
This is a common game in the card world.
It's not really my thing. But i don't begrudge anyone their fun. I bet sports for fun. Never more than 5 bucks, maybe 10. I do okay, but it's just for fun and every bet I make I consider lost money. I feel the same about VB.
Now, if I had money and connections, I think this concept could be modified so there were more winners and fewer losers. I also think there are ways to make them a virtual must buy. But until I can figure out how to make that work, I truly hope the VB folks are successful and help make NGCX successful. Because i see it as a positive for the hobby.
I don't begrudge anyone their fun either. I never discouraged anyone from buying VB, all I said is that after series one I'm done because it isn't really my thing. However, you seem to think you speak for me, and alleged that I don't like them I just wanted to collect the plastic, as if that's somehow wrong.
If you don't see a red flag with the very first coin on ebay, being the exact coin from the "demo" box before any normal buyer could have plausibly received their box, then I can't help you.
While not perfect, to use your lottery analogy, if the relative of a PowerBall employee posted the winning ticket (claiming it as such) 30 minutes before the drawing, I think there might be a problem.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty because I have no proof. I said there were red flags.
Think it odd if you must, but obviously I made my purchase before these red flags surfaced. I made my purchase wanting to collect the plastic, hoping for a score, thinking the distribution was going to be completely random and fair. My box was in transit when the first coin showed up on ebay. Had I known, maybe I would have stayed away completely.
Do I think they would intentionally risk it all over $1,000? No. Do I think they could have possibly made some poor decisions? Maybe. I don't believe in coincidences, but I suppose miracles do happen so let's consider the series of fortunate events that had to occur.
The "demo" box coins had to be sent back to NGC for repackaging/sealing.
The repackaged box had to make its way into the pre-sale lot, not the "normal" lot designated for the unwashed masses, and then shipped out early.
The repackaged box from the pre-sale lot then had to be sent to a coin dealer in Nebraska and not some random Joe from Oklahoma.
Is it possible all these things occurred? Yes. Is it probable? IDK, I also find it peculiar that the fortunate dealer who received the repackaged box from the pre-sale lot never listed the other two coins from the box on ebay.
Honestly, I don't know. But I shy away from accusations without proof. Couldn't the dealer have sold the other 2 coins locally? I don't sell everything on eBay and I don't even have a BM store.
Regardless, I have no problem with everyone doing whatever they want.
@jmlanzaf I have been reading your posts for years so I know that you are a highly intelligent person. Because I have read your posts for years I also know that I won't be able to coax it out of you. However, I also know that you are not this obtuse.
I never made any accusations. I just said there were red flags. I also don't have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want (within the bounds of legality of course) as long as everything is above board. I would also hope that you would agree that with an endeavor such as this everything needs to be above reproach, and that is not the case. Regardless of how it happened, several things occurred that don't look good.
With that said, I am fine with my purchase. I spent some of my entertainment budget on entertainment and came away with three PM coins. I also wish VB the best of luck with their future releases, but I hope that they put some measures into place in order to prevent any look of impropriety.
Hmmm...obtuse? It's really more a question of where the benefit of the doubt lies. You have to assume that VB and/or their "insiders" are obtuse. I could easily "sell" all my good stuff to my mother before release, but you can bet I would tell my mother to sit on it until well after release...especially if one of the coins was featured prominently in a promotional video.
I'm not saying it's a good look. But, isn't it two different dealers: the promotional video and the eBay seller? To me "red flag" says "stop, there's a problem". I just don't think this rises to that level. But, you can disagree. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.
Maybe they are obtuse. I won't repeat in detail all of the "missteps" that have been listed ad nauseum. However, when you consider the pre-sale, the "demo" box that originally wasn't, the fact that they didn't take into account weight or metal content, the possibility that they may be obtuse certainly is a consideration.
I think you are being extremely generous there. They seem to be very sharp and on top of things. They did what they needed to do to create a lot of buzz, resulting in a near instant sell-out and huge premiums on eBay. And now they are doing what they need to do to keep the ball rolling.
Do you really think people with decades in the industry, investing probably close to a million dollars in product development, packaging, marketing, inventory, etc., didn't take EVERYTHING into account? The least likely possibility is that they are obtuse, and have "kinks" that need to be worked out.
I also don't think that they believed that what they were doing would go unnoticed by their audience. I was certainly able to anticipate it, and I did not have the benefit of being inside and knowing exactly what they were going to do. They succeeding in building hype, and now they are in the process of damage control ahead of the next release. They know exactly what they are doing.
They are Lucy, we are Charlie Brown, and valuable pulls are the football. Let's Go Series 2!!!!! I'll be in, right behind @jmlanzaf, @MasonG and @WQuarterFreddie, because, no proof, lots of fun, and benefit of the doubt. Like Charlie Brown and, apparently, @jmlanzaf, I too like to give the benefit of the doubt. I've been waiting my whole life for Charlie to kick that football. Charles Schultz might be dead, but I'm not, so I still have hope.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Um...the cost of a sports card hobby box can cost much more than the VaultBox
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
More importantly, I haven't seen many people who actually BOUGHT a VaultBox complaining about their purchase.😎
Could it be that they understood the risk/reward of the purchase?🤔
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
More importantly, I haven't seen many people who actually BOUGHT a VaultBox complaining about their purchase.😎
Could it be that they understood the risk/reward of the purchase?🤔
I had a friend who used to play $100 slots. $100 for one pull on the "one armed bandit". He could drop $1000 in less than a minute. He could only play if he had $10,000 to burn. He won a Corvette once....
I don't like $1.00 slots. But i never told him what to do with his money and he found it exhilarating. And he was not a rich man. He passed away and I still miss him. And I'm glad he had his fun when he could. Even if he was "having fun wrong".
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
More importantly, I haven't seen many people who actually BOUGHT a VaultBox complaining about their purchase.😎
Could it be that they understood the risk/reward of the purchase?🤔
No. You haven't been looking in the right places. Check out YouTube and reddit. If people were not complaining, you would not have received your survey.
@MasonG said:
Some of you guys need to get over yourselves. If people want to buy these boxes, that's their business. It's their money, not yours.
No one is saying otherwise. Just throwing out facts and observations for anyone who is interested to include in their decision matrix.
I keep getting accused, but I never told anyone not to buy. I just pointed out all the negatives, IMHO. For whatever reason, a few so-called experts here, who would never buy the product themselves, seem to have a problem with people like me pointing out negatives, on the chance that might discourage others from buying.
I love it when people who have no intention of buying something feel compelled to encourage others to do so. You guys should be as supportive of the telemarketers, who also have families to support, and whose customers also have money and the right to make bad decisions.
Stop cheerleading for something you wouldn't put your own money into, and I'll stop presenting an opposing point of view.
@MasonG said:
People complain about the US Mint all the time. Maybe they should be shut down, too.
Who said anything about shutting anything down? Everyone is free to make a living -- the US Mint, HSN, VB, etc.
Full and fair disclosure, and then allowing the wisdom of H.L. Mencken to do its thing. It should only be shut down at the point that people figure out what it is and refuse to play, if that point ever comes.
@MasonG said:
People complain about the US Mint all the time. Maybe they should be shut down, too.
Who said anything about shutting anything down? Everyone is free to make a living -- the US Mint, HSN, VB, etc.
Full and fair disclosure, and then allowing the wisdom of H.L. Mencken to do its thing. It should only be shut down at the point that people figure out what it is and refuse to play, if that point ever comes.
You keep invoking Mencken who was, at best, an elitist.
Now look at what you wrote, emphasis mine.
"It should only be SHUT DOWN at the point that people figure out WHAT IT IS and refuse to play...."
Shut own by whom? And what makes you think that everyone doesn't already know what it is? Why does it have to be anything other than a fun little lottery grab bag, Mr Mencken?
@jmlanzaf said:
Shut own by whom? And what makes you think that everyone doesn't already know what it is? Why does it have to be anything other than a fun little lottery grab bag, Mr Mencken?
@MasonG said:
People complain about the US Mint all the time. Maybe they should be shut down, too.
Who said anything about shutting anything down? Everyone is free to make a living -- the US Mint, HSN, VB, etc.
Full and fair disclosure, and then allowing the wisdom of H.L. Mencken to do its thing. It should only be shut down at the point that people figure out what it is and refuse to play, if that point ever comes.
You keep invoking Mencken who was, at best, an elitist.
Now look at what you wrote, emphasis mine.
"It should only be SHUT DOWN at the point that people figure out WHAT IT IS and refuse to play...."
Shut own by whom? And what makes you think that everyone doesn't already know what it is? Why does it have to be anything other than a fun little lottery grab bag, Mr Mencken?
Shut down by themselves if they ever get to the point where they run out of suckers lining up for the opportunity to turn $600 into $350 retail worth of bullion, or whatever else they happen to be putting into the boxes at that point in time.
I agree -- at this point everyone should know what it is, and shame on anyone who doesn't and chooses to play anyway. They deserve exactly what they get, with absolutely no sympathy from me.
Again, I'm expressing an opinion on what I think of the value of the product, but I have never suggested prohibiting VB from selling it, or stopping anyone who wants to have fun burning money from buying it. So I'm really not sure where the vitriol towards me is coming from, just because I'm criticizing a product you wouldn't spend your own money on.
We both wouldn't go near it with our own money, and we both agree that people have the right to do what they want with their money, so why do you care that I say that I think the product represents poor value? You apparently think that as well, although you not only can't bring yourself to say that, but you need to go after anyone who does. Either that, or you don't like "fun little lottery grab bags," although you support them for others. Talk about elitist!
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Um...the cost of a sports card hobby box can cost much more than the VaultBox
Not enticed with $20K cards. Contents listed values matching cost etc. Do not conflate apples with oranges. You will be misleading people.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Um...the cost of a sports card hobby box can cost much more than the VaultBox
Not enticed with $20K cards. Contents listed values matching cost etc. Do not conflate apples with oranges. You will be misleading people.
I am not misleading people. The concept is the same. Buyers spend hundreds even thousands of dollars on a trading card hobby box for the hope of finding a card valuable enough to recoup their investment.
@MasonG said:
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
The thing about state-sponsored lotteries is that the same people (state Legislatures) who make the one legal also make other people's lotteries a crime. Hunger Games is the end result.
There are many studies that show "funding" education through a lottery instead of properly though taxation is regressive - it puts most of the burden on lower-income individuals who play hoping for the big score.
@MasonG said:
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
The thing about state-sponsored lotteries is that the same people (state Legislatures) who make the one legal also make other people's lotteries a crime. Hunger Games is the end result.
There are many studies that show "funding" education through a lottery instead of properly though taxation is regressive - it puts most of the burden on lower-income individuals who play hoping for the big score.
Very excellent points. The fact remains that states rely on the so-called elitism of Mencken to collect this regressive tax in a painless way from a segment of the population least able to afford, it by peddling a BS dream that induces them to voluntarily pay hundreds of millions or billions a year in taxes that, in turn, reduces the tax burden on those better able to bear it.
Bad analogy to this, though. The concept is the same, but the upside is far less, and the cost is far more, so the people playing are not really the same as those buying a few dollars worth of lottery tickets. Whatever else I think of this, I wouldn't call it a regressive tax on coin collectors. Among other reasons, because the proceeds do not in any way benefit the public, or even any collectors, other than the few who pull the winners.
Yes, government sanctioning public lotteries while outlawing private ones is hypocritical, but it does at least have the benefit of funneling proceeds to needed public expenditures. If Mencken wasn't right there wouldn't be a market for lotteries, but he was right, and there is. The same probably goes for VB.
And, by the way, for anyone who thinks I am whining, crying or complaining about this, I am not. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the fact that lotteries exist and serve to lower the amount of state taxes I pay, even though I think it's nuts that people with far less resources than I have eagerly line up for the privilege of doing so. Similarly, I do not begrudge anyone their fun in lining the pockets of everyone associated with VB. Even though I do not benefit, even indirectly, it also does not cost me a dime.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Um...the cost of a sports card hobby box can cost much more than the VaultBox
Not enticed with $20K cards. Contents listed values matching cost etc. Do not conflate apples with oranges. You will be misleading people.
They are enticed with high value cards. Maybe not $20k but multiple hundreds or a couple thousand. It is EXACTLY the same game. It's where the VB folks got the idea.
Card hobby boxes will have 3+ slabbed cards in them. Among the possible cards will be a Babe Ruth or a Mickey Mantle. In some cases it is a more modern limited edition card or autographed card.
Most buyers get a set of relatively common cards and a few lucky people get very high value cards.
Please research it before you keep arguing that it is something different. It is actually you who are accidentally misleading people.
@fathom said:
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Um...the cost of a sports card hobby box can cost much more than the VaultBox
Not enticed with $20K cards. Contents listed values matching cost etc. Do not conflate apples with oranges. You will be misleading people.
Comments
I didn't mean to speak for you. I didn't name you or directly quote you. Would it be more accurate to say that you accuse them of possible dishonesty.... but still want to collect the plastic?
We don't really know when the pre- sale sales were distributed. Remember that nearly 1/3 of the supply sold before the release date. Could they have shipped a day early?
Call it a "red flag", if you wish. I rather doubt that VB would risk the entire endeavor over $1000 "insider" sale. I'm certainly not going to make such an allegation without proof.
I don't really want to be in the position of having to defend them, nor do I mean to be criticizing you. It did, however, strike me as odd that you would want to collect the "red flag" plastic. If you really think there's a problem with them, why wouldn't you stay away completely?
Lets be clear on the risk to modern coin perception in the marketplace.
The risk is not the 10 point scale or the potential animus created with Sheldon scale collectors.
The risk is the gambling act associated with modern collectible coins, and does that create unhappy consumers. Obviously that is the concern going forward. The parties involved will water down the disparate valuations to mitigate potential hard feelings as they wind down the commitment IMO.
Sports card packs have dummy thick cardboard inserts in packs to confuse pack searchers. They resemble the real memorabilia insert cards.
Will TPG's denote on the holder labels "From The Vault Box Find" for the higher end hits?
Even the sinkers could become collectible, or may be used to help"reel in" more buyers.
I get the feeling we will be back again. Series 2 releases in late March or early April.
At least they have the gumption to advertise loose slots.
Aren't the generic ASEs already covering that?
Have to wonder... 2 of his original three threads got shutdown once people starting piling on the negatives. And he's back at it...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Why are we blaming him for the fact that other members of the forum can't abide by forum rules? It's not hard to simply not impugn the integrity of a corporation. People could just ignore the thread and go back to driving newbies away by rudely answering their questions.
I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty because I have no proof. I said there were red flags.
Think it odd if you must, but obviously I made my purchase before these red flags surfaced. I made my purchase wanting to collect the plastic, hoping for a score, thinking the distribution was going to be completely random and fair. My box was in transit when the first coin showed up on ebay. Had I known, maybe I would have stayed away completely.
Do I think they would intentionally risk it all over $1,000? No. Do I think they could have possibly made some poor decisions? Maybe. I don't believe in coincidences, but I suppose miracles do happen so let's consider the series of fortunate events that had to occur.
Is it possible all these things occurred? Yes. Is it probable? IDK, I also find it peculiar that the fortunate dealer who received the repackaged box from the pre-sale lot never listed the other two coins from the box on ebay.
Philippians 4:4-7
Honestly, I don't know. But I shy away from accusations without proof. Couldn't the dealer have sold the other 2 coins locally? I don't sell everything on eBay and I don't even have a BM store.
Regardless, I have no problem with everyone doing whatever they want.
I would appreciate the clarification of if your comment is referring to me or NJCoin.🤔
@jmlanzaf I have been reading your posts for years so I know that you are a highly intelligent person. Because I have read your posts for years I also know that I won't be able to coax it out of you. However, I also know that you are not this obtuse.
I never made any accusations. I just said there were red flags. I also don't have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want (within the bounds of legality of course) as long as everything is above board. I would also hope that you would agree that with an endeavor such as this everything needs to be above reproach, and that is not the case. Regardless of how it happened, several things occurred that don't look good.
With that said, I am fine with my purchase. I spent some of my entertainment budget on entertainment and came away with three PM coins. I also wish VB the best of luck with their future releases, but I hope that they put some measures into place in order to prevent any look of impropriety.
Philippians 4:4-7
Hmmm...obtuse? It's really more a question of where the benefit of the doubt lies. You have to assume that VB and/or their "insiders" are obtuse. I could easily "sell" all my good stuff to my mother before release, but you can bet I would tell my mother to sit on it until well after release...especially if one of the coins was featured prominently in a promotional video.
I'm not saying it's a good look. But, isn't it two different dealers: the promotional video and the eBay seller? To me "red flag" says "stop, there's a problem". I just don't think this rises to that level. But, you can disagree. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.
Yes. They have a different color core.
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Red flags are all over the place. The single coin is just the most shining example, and the one that would be easiest to prove if there was ever litigation, since there would have to be a paper trail from VB to PWCC, back to VB, to NGC, and then back to VB for random distribution.
There would need to be documentation that demo boxes were actually created by NGC, etc., etc., etc. HIGHLY unlikely that any of that actually occurred, especially since the demo was not identified as a demo until people on YouTube started asking questions.
To me, the red flag is that distribution is not supervised and audited by a third party, like the grading and sealing of the boxes are. It never occurred to the sponsors during months of planning that the contents of sealed boxes could be identified by weight and metallic composition, although the dopes on the internet figured that out in a nanosecond?
I'm not sure that anyone intended to steal from anyone, but, if each coin identified on the website was not available for random distribution to all purchasers, that would be the effect, and it looks like that's exactly what happened. From the outside looking in, you don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to form an opinion, or even to make an accusation. Conviction is a different story. That's what trials are for. But, to say accusations are out of bounds without irrefutable proof is just nonsense.
I think the point was to gin up excitement by getting winning boxes in the hands of internet influencers. Mission accomplished. Now we are in the perception cleanup phase prior to the release of Series 2. Believe what you want, say what you want, and react to my comments how you want. The fact that you are not a buyer speaks louder than anything else you have to say about this.
Scratchoff lottery tickets don't leave you with anything but a piece of cardboard and some silvery stuff when you lose. They've been around for decades and, at least in my experience when stopping at the minimart for a coke, they're just as popular as ever. I never hear anybody complaining. With these coin boxes, you might not hit the jackpot but you still end up with something of value. Is it totally out of the question to consider the possibility that the people who are buying them actually do understand what they're getting?
Seems to me, the people who are the most unhappy about the boxes are those arguing against them, apparently in an attempt to convince others to not buy them or just worried that somebody, somewhere isn't smart enough to know what they're spending their own money on.
fonmo — Fear Of Not Missing Out?
Damn, suckered in again. I’m trying to stay out. Fomo.
Edit: autocorrupt
The negative Nellie's simply don't know or won't acknowledge that these boxes have been in the card market for years. I don't see an outcry by card collectors that they were robbed.
To be honest, I am not unhappy at all. You don't see me starting any threads about this. I just feel compelled to add a little balance whenever I see a cheerleading thread pop up. In terms of convincing anyone to do, or not do, anything, personally I am way past that.
Yes, in the beginning I identified a few things that I thought might be problematic. And yes, I thought that everyone might not identify them. So, I thought I was providing a little information to add to the mix for people to consider. Again, we are now way past that. Everyone can see what this is, and everyone is free to believe whatever they want, and to spend their money however they want.
Opinions have been formed, and they are not changing. What's weird is that the most vocal supporters are not affiliates of VB, or customers. Yet the need to keep starting new threads on the topic expressing support continues unabated, even after getting their own previous threads shut down. I don't begrudge anyone their point of view, although I do question the hypocrisy in being so strident in support of something that, for whatever reason, they choose not to participate in themselves.
I can't speak for them, but, perhaps, if Topps sent out pre-release boxes to internet influencers that contained rare winners, you'd see a similar reaction.
Puh-lease. You were complaining about these BEFORE that happened. That was not your issue. Your issue was/is exactly what occurs in the card boxes all the time.
No you will not hear it there because the valuations are different. It's all about the opportunity cost and opportunity loss.
You aren't buying $5 lottery tickets or $100 card boxes. There is potential several hundred dollar losses on these boxes. That is significant. Its gambling, plain and simple. I have a problem with enticing gambling in collectible coins.
Look harder. The card boxes go for a much as $1000
What do you mean "Puh-lease"? You mentioned that card collectors didn't complain. I was giving you a possible reason as to why, that has nothing to do with my myriad issues with the offering!
You sure didn't hear me complain that I was robbed, and I doubt a lot of the internet complainers would have been complaining about the issues I identified before the release if the potential inequity in distribution didn't manifest itself in such an obvious manner, right in their face, as part of the pre-release marketing blitz.
Topps is a helluva lot more slick and sophisticated than VB. Its business is a lot more mature. And, as @fathom pointed out, expectations are different in that market. That's why they don't complain while VB customers do.
P.S. The fact that the markets are different is a leading indicator that NGCX is not going to lead to a revolution in coin grading. If anyone actually gets introduced to coins through this, soon enough they'll get a cheat sheet with a 9.0-10 to 60-70 conversion chart (because, without one, the conversion will be impossible for most to wrap their heads around 🤣), and life as we know it will continue. Coins will not be moving to a 10 point grading scale in our lifetimes.
Maybe they are obtuse. I won't repeat in detail all of the "missteps" that have been listed ad nauseum. However, when you consider the pre-sale, the "demo" box that originally wasn't, the fact that they didn't take into account weight or metal content, the possibility that they may be obtuse certainly is a consideration.
Edited to add: That or they considered their target audience to be...
Philippians 4:4-7
OK so there are expensive boxes. Most that I saw had specific item contents matching box valuation.
They are not enticed with $20K cards.
I think you are being extremely generous there. They seem to be very sharp and on top of things. They did what they needed to do to create a lot of buzz, resulting in a near instant sell-out and huge premiums on eBay. And now they are doing what they need to do to keep the ball rolling.
Do you really think people with decades in the industry, investing probably close to a million dollars in product development, packaging, marketing, inventory, etc., didn't take EVERYTHING into account? The least likely possibility is that they are obtuse, and have "kinks" that need to be worked out.
I also don't think that they believed that what they were doing would go unnoticed by their audience. I was certainly able to anticipate it, and I did not have the benefit of being inside and knowing exactly what they were going to do. They succeeding in building hype, and now they are in the process of damage control ahead of the next release. They know exactly what they are doing.
They are Lucy, we are Charlie Brown, and valuable pulls are the football. Let's Go Series 2!!!!! I'll be in, right behind @jmlanzaf, @MasonG and @WQuarterFreddie, because, no proof, lots of fun, and benefit of the doubt. Like Charlie Brown and, apparently, @jmlanzaf, I too like to give the benefit of the doubt. I've been waiting my whole life for Charlie to kick that football. Charles Schultz might be dead, but I'm not, so I still have hope.
Um...the cost of a sports card hobby box can cost much more than the VaultBox
More importantly, I haven't seen many people who actually BOUGHT a VaultBox complaining about their purchase.😎
Could it be that they understood the risk/reward of the purchase?🤔
I had a friend who used to play $100 slots. $100 for one pull on the "one armed bandit". He could drop $1000 in less than a minute. He could only play if he had $10,000 to burn. He won a Corvette once....
I don't like $1.00 slots. But i never told him what to do with his money and he found it exhilarating. And he was not a rich man. He passed away and I still miss him. And I'm glad he had his fun when he could. Even if he was "having fun wrong".
Some of you guys need to get over yourselves. If people want to buy these boxes, that's their business. It's their money, not yours.
No. You haven't been looking in the right places. Check out YouTube and reddit. If people were not complaining, you would not have received your survey.
People complain about the US Mint all the time. Maybe they should be shut down, too.
No one is saying otherwise. Just throwing out facts and observations for anyone who is interested to include in their decision matrix.
I keep getting accused, but I never told anyone not to buy. I just pointed out all the negatives, IMHO. For whatever reason, a few so-called experts here, who would never buy the product themselves, seem to have a problem with people like me pointing out negatives, on the chance that might discourage others from buying.
I love it when people who have no intention of buying something feel compelled to encourage others to do so. You guys should be as supportive of the telemarketers, who also have families to support, and whose customers also have money and the right to make bad decisions.
Stop cheerleading for something you wouldn't put your own money into, and I'll stop presenting an opposing point of view.
.
.
Who said anything about shutting anything down? Everyone is free to make a living -- the US Mint, HSN, VB, etc.
Full and fair disclosure, and then allowing the wisdom of H.L. Mencken to do its thing. It should only be shut down at the point that people figure out what it is and refuse to play, if that point ever comes.
You keep invoking Mencken who was, at best, an elitist.
Now look at what you wrote, emphasis mine.
"It should only be SHUT DOWN at the point that people figure out WHAT IT IS and refuse to play...."
Shut own by whom? And what makes you think that everyone doesn't already know what it is? Why does it have to be anything other than a fun little lottery grab bag, Mr Mencken?
Can't wait for VaultBox V3.0. My prediction?
Shut down by themselves if they ever get to the point where they run out of suckers lining up for the opportunity to turn $600 into $350 retail worth of bullion, or whatever else they happen to be putting into the boxes at that point in time.
I agree -- at this point everyone should know what it is, and shame on anyone who doesn't and chooses to play anyway. They deserve exactly what they get, with absolutely no sympathy from me.
Again, I'm expressing an opinion on what I think of the value of the product, but I have never suggested prohibiting VB from selling it, or stopping anyone who wants to have fun burning money from buying it. So I'm really not sure where the vitriol towards me is coming from, just because I'm criticizing a product you wouldn't spend your own money on.
We both wouldn't go near it with our own money, and we both agree that people have the right to do what they want with their money, so why do you care that I say that I think the product represents poor value? You apparently think that as well, although you not only can't bring yourself to say that, but you need to go after anyone who does. Either that, or you don't like "fun little lottery grab bags," although you support them for others. Talk about elitist!
Not enticed with $20K cards. Contents listed values matching cost etc. Do not conflate apples with oranges. You will be misleading people.
I am not misleading people. The concept is the same. Buyers spend hundreds even thousands of dollars on a trading card hobby box for the hope of finding a card valuable enough to recoup their investment.
The thing about state-sponsored lotteries is that the same people (state Legislatures) who make the one legal also make other people's lotteries a crime. Hunger Games is the end result.
There are many studies that show "funding" education through a lottery instead of properly though taxation is regressive - it puts most of the burden on lower-income individuals who play hoping for the big score.
And, yes, there is some interesting evidence that out-sized jackpots (PowerBall) are less regressive because they pull in a more population-representative group of buyers (https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.17310/ntj.2004.2.02)!
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Very excellent points. The fact remains that states rely on the so-called elitism of Mencken to collect this regressive tax in a painless way from a segment of the population least able to afford, it by peddling a BS dream that induces them to voluntarily pay hundreds of millions or billions a year in taxes that, in turn, reduces the tax burden on those better able to bear it.
Bad analogy to this, though. The concept is the same, but the upside is far less, and the cost is far more, so the people playing are not really the same as those buying a few dollars worth of lottery tickets. Whatever else I think of this, I wouldn't call it a regressive tax on coin collectors. Among other reasons, because the proceeds do not in any way benefit the public, or even any collectors, other than the few who pull the winners.
Yes, government sanctioning public lotteries while outlawing private ones is hypocritical, but it does at least have the benefit of funneling proceeds to needed public expenditures. If Mencken wasn't right there wouldn't be a market for lotteries, but he was right, and there is. The same probably goes for VB.
And, by the way, for anyone who thinks I am whining, crying or complaining about this, I am not. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the fact that lotteries exist and serve to lower the amount of state taxes I pay, even though I think it's nuts that people with far less resources than I have eagerly line up for the privilege of doing so. Similarly, I do not begrudge anyone their fun in lining the pockets of everyone associated with VB. Even though I do not benefit, even indirectly, it also does not cost me a dime.
They are enticed with high value cards. Maybe not $20k but multiple hundreds or a couple thousand. It is EXACTLY the same game. It's where the VB folks got the idea.
Card hobby boxes will have 3+ slabbed cards in them. Among the possible cards will be a Babe Ruth or a Mickey Mantle. In some cases it is a more modern limited edition card or autographed card.
Most buyers get a set of relatively common cards and a few lucky people get very high value cards.
Please research it before you keep arguing that it is something different. It is actually you who are accidentally misleading people.
https://ultimateautographs.com/a/s/products/autographed-authentic-football-helmet-3rd-and-long-authentic-helmet-series?gclid=Cj0KCQiArsefBhCbARIsAP98hXSbkeYsTSOLxzqyXQRWpikg2UUDuO7cUbJ2egZ5zjzoRsGct1jrsOIaAlJ8EALw_wcB
https://www.dacardworld.com/sports-cards/2020-21-hit-parade-football-vip-chairman-edition-hobby-box-series-1
Please look at these. There's a handful of high value items and other people get the back up running back.
Have $4400 to gamble?
https://www.dacardworld.com/sports-cards/2022-hit-parade-football-case-hits-sapphire-edition-series-8-hobby-10-box-case-josh-allen