@MasonG said:
Is it overcharging when the corner convenience store prices a gallon of milk higher than Walmart?
How dare the convenience store pass along their higher cost basis to their customers.
Lots of people wear Price Guide Blinders, where the prices shown in them are correct and anything that differs is wrong.
If that's true, VB needs to identify and market to them, because they won't be upset receiving $300 worth of coins if the Guide says they are worth $500. No evidence of that so far.
The test will come when Series 2 is released. If you guys are right, there will be a lot of repeat customers excitedly breaking seals to reveal their treasures. OTOH, if most of the buyers are just looking to flip unopened boxes to greater fools on eBay, this experiment might end up having a shelf life only a little bit longer than that convenience store milk.
@NJCoin said:
You don't need to convince anyone on this forum. You need to convince all the folks on reddit and YouTube who won't be coming back for more after their experience last time.
I don't care to convince them. They paid a stupid tax trying to flip something. Not every flip works.
Does anyone think the flippers have helped US Mint releases?
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@MasonG said:
Is it overcharging when the corner convenience store prices a gallon of milk higher than Walmart?
How dare the convenience store pass along their higher cost basis to their customers.
Lots of people wear Price Guide Blinders, where the prices shown in them are correct and anything that differs is wrong.
As long as markets function, I'm not really worried about it.> @BStrauss3 said:
@NJCoin said:
You don't need to convince anyone on this forum. You need to convince all the folks on reddit and YouTube who won't be coming back for more after their experience last time.
I don't care to convince them. They paid a stupid tax trying to flip something. Not every flip works.
Does anyone think the flippers have helped US Mint releases?
Actually, the flippers have been a huge help on Mint releases. They create the illusion of value and scarcity and actually help drive the frenzy. They also promote and sell a lot of product that otherwise wouldn't sell. Or haven't you noticed the general lack of enthusiasm over Mint releases in the last 2 years, not to mention the lack of sell outs. The increase in prices as well as the stricter HHL as pushed flippers out and Mint sales and secondary market value has decreased.
Now, "collectors" who just want one in their collection don't care, at least not until it is time to sell. There's more to the market than just "collectors".
The flipping game is complex. I think it goes product to product as to effect.
Flippers promote but they also dump on the market which will depress prices.
Also they panic flip too early or hold too long. Its complex. The Morgan/Peace flipper face a different market than the straight bullion guys.
Also lets not forget that the market will always function, it's a question of integrity in the long run. Assuming you are in it for the long run.....some are not.
@NJCoin said:
You don't need to convince anyone on this forum. You need to convince all the folks on reddit and YouTube who won't be coming back for more after their experience last time.
I don't care to convince them. They paid a stupid tax trying to flip something. Not every flip works.
Does anyone think the flippers have helped US Mint releases?
TOTALLY agree!! I was speaking to the people arguing that the product is well priced because VB's costs are high, analogizing to how convenience store prices are higher than Walmart.
My point was that people here do not need to be convinced, because we are not convenience store shoppers. The people who need to be convinced are the people who, as you said, paid the tax and have been complaining about it ever since.
They need to be convinced that they received good value, not because their 2015 MS69 ASE is worth more than any other 2015 MS69 ASE (@jmlanzaf already demonstrated to all of us that it is not), but because they bought it at 7-11 instead of Walmart.
@fathom said:
Don't underestimate the modern coin collector, they will figure out when the values don't relate to actual retail.
Then why are people complaining about the value (or, more accurately, perceived lack thereof)?
It takes time.
In the mean time, those who paid up for the VaultBox/NCGX label are paying the tax.
The people who buy scratchoff lottery tickets pay a similar tax. Do you think they don't know it?
Yup. I think they don't know it.
They are the same people who complain about other taxes. They are not enthusiastic tax payers. They are dreamers who are being sold a fantasy. No, I don't think they realize they are paying a regressive tax that actually serves to lower the taxes paid by other, more wealthy people.
It's all good, and people are certainly free to voluntarily pay extra taxes while chasing a dream. But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Similarly, if the pre-release VB unboxing videos showed what the vast majority of people breaking seals experienced, instead of being staged to illustrate a fantasy, enthusiasm for the product would have been a lot lower than it was. VB absolutely knew what it was doing with its marketing, and it wasn't marketing the product as being the tax @BStrauss3 accurately described.
The proof will be in seeing how many people who experienced $300 worth of "fun" while buying $300 worth of coins for $600 come back for more "fun" in Series 2.
@fathom said:
Don't underestimate the modern coin collector, they will figure out when the values don't relate to actual retail.
Then why are people complaining about the value (or, more accurately, perceived lack thereof)?
It takes time.
In the mean time, those who paid up for the VaultBox/NCGX label are paying the tax.
The people who buy scratchoff lottery tickets pay a similar tax. Do you think they don't know it?
Yup. I think they don't know it.
They are the same people who complain about other taxes. They are not enthusiastic tax payers. They are dreamers who are being sold a fantasy. No, I don't think they realize they are paying a regressive tax that actually serves to lower the taxes paid by other, more wealthy people.
It's all good, and people are certainly free to voluntarily pay extra taxes while chasing a dream. But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Similarly, if the pre-release VB unboxing videos showed what the vast majority of people breaking seals experienced, instead of being staged to illustrate a fantasy, enthusiasm for the product would have been a lot lower than it was. VB absolutely knew what it was doing with its marketing, and it wasn't marketing the product as being the tax @BStrauss3 accurately described.
The proof will be in seeing how many people who experienced $300 worth of "fun" while buying $300 worth of coins for $600 come back for more "fun" in Series 2.
What will it prove though? Lottery ticket buyers may or may not know they are getting “taxed”, but they keep playing. I view the lottery as a tax but I’ve still bought tickets here or there as part of an office pool or just for fun.
VB customers may or may not understand the value they are receiving - I’m not sure that’s the driver regardless. I think you are implying that the market is rational and all are solely seeking to maximize economic self-interest. Clearly that’s not the case or no one would ever gamble in Vegas. I don’t think the success of VB2 will necessarily reflect the economic value proposition. People are buying these boxes for other reasons as we’ve talked about quite a bit.
@Project Numismatics said:
I don’t think the success of VB2 will necessarily reflect the economic value proposition. People are buying these boxes for other reasons as we’ve talked about quite a bit.
You can keep telling people this but some are determined to not understand.
@fathom said:
Don't underestimate the modern coin collector, they will figure out when the values don't relate to actual retail.
Then why are people complaining about the value (or, more accurately, perceived lack thereof)?
It takes time.
In the mean time, those who paid up for the VaultBox/NCGX label are paying the tax.
The people who buy scratchoff lottery tickets pay a similar tax. Do you think they don't know it?
Yup. I think they don't know it.
They are the same people who complain about other taxes. They are not enthusiastic tax payers. They are dreamers who are being sold a fantasy. No, I don't think they realize they are paying a regressive tax that actually serves to lower the taxes paid by other, more wealthy people.
It's all good, and people are certainly free to voluntarily pay extra taxes while chasing a dream. But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Similarly, if the pre-release VB unboxing videos showed what the vast majority of people breaking seals experienced, instead of being staged to illustrate a fantasy, enthusiasm for the product would have been a lot lower than it was. VB absolutely knew what it was doing with its marketing, and it wasn't marketing the product as being the tax @BStrauss3 accurately described.
The proof will be in seeing how many people who experienced $300 worth of "fun" while buying $300 worth of coins for $600 come back for more "fun" in Series 2.
What will it prove though? Lottery ticket buyers may or may not know they are getting “taxed”, but they keep playing. I view the lottery as a tax but I’ve still bought tickets here or there as part of an office pool or just for fun.
VB customers may or may not understand the value they are receiving - I’m not sure that’s the driver regardless. I think you are implying that the market is rational and all are solely seeking to maximize economic self-interest. Clearly that’s not the case or no one would ever gamble in Vegas. I don’t think the success of VB2 will necessarily reflect the economic value proposition. People are buying these boxes for other reasons as we’ve talked about quite a bit.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm trying to say that most lottery players don't actually understand how bad a deal the lottery is. I also play when the prize gets crazy high, knowing full well I am throwing money away. But I am not a regular weekly player.
I honestly, really, truly, think VB is different, and that most coin collectors are not happy go lucky gamblers eager to donate $600 to the Minshull family fortune. I might be wrong. Time will tell. But the fact remains that everyone saying that I just don't get it, or that I am determined to not understand, are also not players. So, they are helping to prove my point, like it or not.
My point, for the umpteenth time, is that most coin collectors are indeed looking for value, regardless of whether or not they also enjoy playing a lottery. VB was marketed in a very clever way, and I think people did not fully understand what they were buying before they broke the seal. Several very knowledgeable people right here on this forum also did not fully understand how things would work before they saw it for themselves.
Now the cat's out of the bag, and the response is surveys and the prospect of working out "kinks." It remains to be seen whether that flies. I think that people in this space do understand value, and are not going to be willing to pay $600 for $300 worth of coins plus a Powerball ticket with a 1/800 shot at a $20,000 top prize, with a few smaller prizes sprinkled in, that has an implicit value of less than $100.
Yes, people go to Vegas. Lights, shows, pools, food, and gambling with a 90%+ return of every dollar placed at risk. Very different experience from sitting home, having the FedEx guy ring the bell, breaking open a seal, and having an 80% chance of seeing $1 instantly turn into 50 cents, with a small shot at actually getting your money back, and a VERY small shot at maybe turning $600 into a few thousand dollars. No lights. No women in scanty outfits. No free drinks. Doesn't like as much fun as some are making it out to be.
@fathom said:
Don't underestimate the modern coin collector, they will figure out when the values don't relate to actual retail.
Then why are people complaining about the value (or, more accurately, perceived lack thereof)?
It takes time.
In the mean time, those who paid up for the VaultBox/NCGX label are paying the tax.
The people who buy scratchoff lottery tickets pay a similar tax. Do you think they don't know it?
Yup. I think they don't know it.
They are the same people who complain about other taxes. They are not enthusiastic tax payers. They are dreamers who are being sold a fantasy. No, I don't think they realize they are paying a regressive tax that actually serves to lower the taxes paid by other, more wealthy people.
It's all good, and people are certainly free to voluntarily pay extra taxes while chasing a dream. But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Similarly, if the pre-release VB unboxing videos showed what the vast majority of people breaking seals experienced, instead of being staged to illustrate a fantasy, enthusiasm for the product would have been a lot lower than it was. VB absolutely knew what it was doing with its marketing, and it wasn't marketing the product as being the tax @BStrauss3 accurately described.
The proof will be in seeing how many people who experienced $300 worth of "fun" while buying $300 worth of coins for $600 come back for more "fun" in Series 2.
What will it prove though? Lottery ticket buyers may or may not know they are getting “taxed”, but they keep playing. I view the lottery as a tax but I’ve still bought tickets here or there as part of an office pool or just for fun.
VB customers may or may not understand the value they are receiving - I’m not sure that’s the driver regardless. I think you are implying that the market is rational and all are solely seeking to maximize economic self-interest. Clearly that’s not the case or no one would ever gamble in Vegas. I don’t think the success of VB2 will necessarily reflect the economic value proposition. People are buying these boxes for other reasons as we’ve talked about quite a bit.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm trying to say that most lottery players don't actually understand how bad a deal the lottery is. I also play when the prize gets crazy high, knowing full well I am throwing money away. But I am not a regular weekly player.
I honestly, really, truly, think VB is different, and that most coin collectors are not happy go lucky gamblers eager to donate $600 to the Minshull family fortune. I might be wrong. Time will tell. But the fact remains that everyone saying that I just don't get it, or that I am determined to not understand, are also not players. So, they are helping to prove my point, like it or not.
My point, for the umpteenth time, is that most coin collectors are indeed looking for value, regardless of whether or not they also enjoy playing a lottery. VB was marketed in a very clever way, and I think people did not fully understand what they were buying before they broke the seal. Several very knowledgeable people right here on this forum also did not fully understand how things would work before they saw it for themselves.
Now the cat's out of the bag, and the response is surveys and the prospect of working out "kinks." It remains to be seen whether that flies. I think that people in this space do understand value, and are not going to be willing to pay $600 for $300 worth of coins plus a Powerball ticket with a 1/800 shot at a $20,000 top prize, with a few smaller prizes sprinkled in, that has an implicit value of less than $100.
Yes, people go to Vegas. Lights, shows, pools, food, and gambling with a 90%+ return of every dollar placed at risk. Very different experience from sitting home, having the FedEx guy ring the bell, breaking open a seal, and having an 80% chance of seeing $1 instantly turn into 50 cents, with a small shot at actually getting your money back, and a VERY small shot at maybe turning $600 into a few thousand dollars. No lights. No women in scanty outfits. No free drinks. Doesn't like as much fun as some are making it out to be.
That clarification is helpful - but I don’t know if people buying these boxes are really seeking economic value or failed to understand the economics of VB1 - especially if they came from outside the existing collector base.
Therefore I’m not convinced Round 2 success is predictable one way or the other or reflective of the economics.
I also don’t think lottery players are as naive as you think.
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
@JoeLewis said:
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
People who don't collect coins think it's illogical to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a penny. Do collectors need to be saved from their lack of logic?
@JoeLewis said:
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
People who don't collect coins think it's illogical to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a penny. Do collectors need to be saved from their lack of logic?
Asking for a non-collector friend...
I would actually find it very amusing for a non-collector to try to explain to me that I am wasting my money. Maybe for a minute, then it would be annoying. I collect Chuck E. Cheese Tokens FFS
@fathom said:
Don't underestimate the modern coin collector, they will figure out when the values don't relate to actual retail.
Then why are people complaining about the value (or, more accurately, perceived lack thereof)?
It takes time.
In the mean time, those who paid up for the VaultBox/NCGX label are paying the tax.
The people who buy scratchoff lottery tickets pay a similar tax. Do you think they don't know it?
Yup. I think they don't know it.
They are the same people who complain about other taxes. They are not enthusiastic tax payers. They are dreamers who are being sold a fantasy. No, I don't think they realize they are paying a regressive tax that actually serves to lower the taxes paid by other, more wealthy people.
It's all good, and people are certainly free to voluntarily pay extra taxes while chasing a dream. But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Similarly, if the pre-release VB unboxing videos showed what the vast majority of people breaking seals experienced, instead of being staged to illustrate a fantasy, enthusiasm for the product would have been a lot lower than it was. VB absolutely knew what it was doing with its marketing, and it wasn't marketing the product as being the tax @BStrauss3 accurately described.
The proof will be in seeing how many people who experienced $300 worth of "fun" while buying $300 worth of coins for $600 come back for more "fun" in Series 2.
What will it prove though? Lottery ticket buyers may or may not know they are getting “taxed”, but they keep playing. I view the lottery as a tax but I’ve still bought tickets here or there as part of an office pool or just for fun.
VB customers may or may not understand the value they are receiving - I’m not sure that’s the driver regardless. I think you are implying that the market is rational and all are solely seeking to maximize economic self-interest. Clearly that’s not the case or no one would ever gamble in Vegas. I don’t think the success of VB2 will necessarily reflect the economic value proposition. People are buying these boxes for other reasons as we’ve talked about quite a bit.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm trying to say that most lottery players don't actually understand how bad a deal the lottery is. I also play when the prize gets crazy high, knowing full well I am throwing money away. But I am not a regular weekly player.
I honestly, really, truly, think VB is different, and that most coin collectors are not happy go lucky gamblers eager to donate $600 to the Minshull family fortune. I might be wrong. Time will tell. But the fact remains that everyone saying that I just don't get it, or that I am determined to not understand, are also not players. So, they are helping to prove my point, like it or not.
My point, for the umpteenth time, is that most coin collectors are indeed looking for value, regardless of whether or not they also enjoy playing a lottery. VB was marketed in a very clever way, and I think people did not fully understand what they were buying before they broke the seal. Several very knowledgeable people right here on this forum also did not fully understand how things would work before they saw it for themselves.
Now the cat's out of the bag, and the response is surveys and the prospect of working out "kinks." It remains to be seen whether that flies. I think that people in this space do understand value, and are not going to be willing to pay $600 for $300 worth of coins plus a Powerball ticket with a 1/800 shot at a $20,000 top prize, with a few smaller prizes sprinkled in, that has an implicit value of less than $100.
Yes, people go to Vegas. Lights, shows, pools, food, and gambling with a 90%+ return of every dollar placed at risk. Very different experience from sitting home, having the FedEx guy ring the bell, breaking open a seal, and having an 80% chance of seeing $1 instantly turn into 50 cents, with a small shot at actually getting your money back, and a VERY small shot at maybe turning $600 into a few thousand dollars. No lights. No women in scanty outfits. No free drinks. Doesn't like as much fun as some are making it out to be.
That clarification is helpful - but I don’t know if people buying these boxes are really seeking economic value or failed to understand the economics of VB1 - especially if they came from outside the existing collector base.
Therefore I’m not convinced Round 2 success is predictable one way or the other or reflective of the economics.
I also don’t think lottery players are as naive as you think.
Your points are well taken. I'm just screening out the noise coming from everyone pontificating here, including myself. I'm relying on feedback from actual buyers, as well as complaints implied by the fact that VB sent out surveys and promised changes.
I also don't see any evidence that card collectors not already involved in numismatics were enticed by the prospect of a $600 hobby box containing things they don't already collect. The whole idea behind NGCX was to bring card collectors in to coins, by making the grading scale familiar to them. VB took that to the next level by offering them a familiar hobby box, probably with similar economics. What could go wrong?
Maybe the fact that you are now selling to people who won't pay $5 to attend a coin show, as opposed to folks who pay hundreds of dollars to attend other types of collector conventions? The fact remains that no one pimping for it now, here, was a buyer, and very few, if any, of the common person buyers are saying they were happy and plan on going back for more, other than to maybe flip unopened.
I agree about lottery buyers. After a Powerball drawing, you don't see a bunch of people on the internet complaining they got screwed. Compare that with common person feedback among VB buyers.
@JoeLewis said:
I would actually find it very amusing for a non-collector to try to explain to me that I am wasting my money. Maybe for a minute, then it would be annoying.
Some of the people who don't understand the value others see in VaultBox have been trying to explain how it's a mistake to buy them for a lot longer than a minute.
@JoeLewis said:
I collect Chuck E. Cheese Tokens FFS
One of the guys in the coin club I used to belong to had a huge Chuck E. Cheese Token collection. I had no idea there might be so many different ones.
@JoeLewis said:
I would actually find it very amusing for a non-collector to try to explain to me that I am wasting my money. Maybe for a minute, then it would be annoying.
Some of the people who don't understand the value others see in VaultBox have been trying to explain how it's a mistake to buy them for a lot longer than a minute.
@JoeLewis said:
I collect Chuck E. Cheese Tokens FFS
One of the guys in the coin club I used to belong to had a huge Chuck E. Cheese Token collection. I had no idea there might be so many different ones.
@JoeLewis said:
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
People who don't collect coins think it's illogical to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a penny. Do collectors need to be saved from their lack of logic?
Asking for a non-collector friend...
I would actually find it very amusing for a non-collector to try to explain to me that I am wasting my money. Maybe for a minute, then it would be annoying. I collect Chuck E. Cheese Tokens FFS
That’s a great point - I’m sure many non collectors would find it ridiculous to spend $10, $1,000 or $1M on a penny.
What got you into Chuck E Cheese tokens? Almost seems like the modern version of store cards.
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
@JoeLewis said:
The complete collection is over 400 tokens!
How hard is it to complete? Are there unique or nearly unique pieces that make it impossible?
There are many that are extremely hard to find, and one in particular that has only 3-5 known to exist. I’m not aware of anyone other than maybe a collector named Roy Hudnell who has ever assembled a complete collection.
There are no mintage figures, and many of them have been destroyed. In fact, there is almost no information at all about many of the tokens. It’s taken me a decade to find the information I have found. My collection is probably 85-90% complete!
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
Consumer protection regulations definitely serve their purpose. But I’m not particularly worried that anyone is gambling their family’s rent money or at risk of addiction from buying a VB.
That said, they should have been more transparency about value and distribution.
@Project Numismatics said:
What got you into Chuck E Cheese tokens? Almost seems like the modern version of store cards.
As a kid from the 70s and 80s, Chuck E. Cheese was a big deal...amazing in fact. I'm a huge retro video game nerd, and I guess it came naturally, as a collector, to look into video game tokens.
Also, I was kind of fascinated that there was so little information about them, and I have very much enjoyed the the research involved to assemble a useable guide. Most of the tokens in my collection cost me $1.00 or less. Once I got to some of the rare ones, I had to pay more. I think the most expensive one I've bought was about $100. A Santa Anna token (3-5 known to exist) sometimes becomes available at $500-$1000, but I haven't felt comfortable pulling the trigger on that.
@JoeLewis said:
There are no mintage figures, and many of them have been destroyed. In fact, there is almost no information at all about many of the tokens. It’s taken me a decade to find the information I have found. My collection is probably 85-90% complete!
That's pretty good, sounds like a difficult task. My main interest is world coins and the local coin shop dealer puts most of that stuff in a box when he buys it and gives it to me to sort/catalog, I get to buy whatever I'm interested in at a good price. There are always a bunch of tokens, Chuck E. Cheese included. From having known the coin club guy, I wonder about them (and lots of the others, too) but trying to find info/pricing on so many of them is an incredible time sink.
My sister's family is real big on scratchoffs. Whenever she visits me (we're not in the same state), she buys a ton of them to take home since the games are different. Interestingly enough, although none of them expect to get rich, my sister and her husband won a million dollars last year.
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
Consumer protection regulations definitely serve their purpose. But I’m not particularly worried that anyone is gambling their family’s rent money or at risk of addiction from buying a VB.
That said, they should have been more transparency about value and distribution.
They listed all the coins that were in all the boxes. They couldn't have been more transparent.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Here’s mine. Is it worth hundreds of dollars? I do have a diverse collection. Some of this, a little of that 😁
Unfortunately, those are very common.
Here's a very rare variety. I've looked through many thousands of tokens, and I've only ever seen this one and one other. The variety is characterized by the poor spacing of Chuck E. Cheese. It reads "ChuckE. Cheese". There are other minor stylized differences as well. I have no idea why this exists, and since this was created in the die, why there are not more of them.
@JoeLewis said:
Here's a very rare variety. I've looked through many thousands of tokens, and I've only ever seen this one and one other. The variety is characterized by the poor spacing of Chuck E. Cheese. It reads "ChuckE. Cheese". There are other minor stylized differences as well. I have no idea why this exists, and since this was created in the die, why there are not more of them.
Maybe after taking a look at them, they decided to scrap them and a few escaped.
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
Consumer protection regulations definitely serve their purpose. But I’m not particularly worried that anyone is gambling their family’s rent money or at risk of addiction from buying a VB.
That said, they should have been more transparency about value and distribution.
Agree. It's not about anyone becoming homeless because they bought a VB. It's about people being induced into paying $600 for a 1 in 800 chance at a $23,000 coin, and maybe having no chance at all, because distribution is unregulated and unsupervised.
I'm not even suggesting that there should be laws against what they are doing. I'm just saying that what they are doing with distribution undermines everything they made a big deal about with packing and sealing. And sealing was kind of a farce, given how people were able to analyze plastic boxes from the outside and determined the weight and metallic content of what was inside.
People can and will make their own determinations. People who like throwing away money on hobby boxes are a likely market, if VB can only get them interested in coins. People who complain about the price of hot dogs at a coin show, not so much.
Seems crazy, but proves my point. I guarantee they don't really understand how bad their odds are, or how little of every dollar collected funds the prize pool. I'm suggesting we outlaw the lottery, but I am suggesting that the typical coin collector is a lot sharper than the typical lottery player.
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
Consumer protection regulations definitely serve their purpose. But I’m not particularly worried that anyone is gambling their family’s rent money or at risk of addiction from buying a VB.
That said, they should have been more transparency about value and distribution.
They listed all the coins that were in all the boxes. They couldn't have been more transparent.
Yes, they listed the coins. But they certainly could have been more transparent. They didn't say they'd be sending a platinum one out to Shaun, or a gold one out to PWCC, before the game began.
Since that happened, no one knows just how many of the red cores listed on their website were distributed to Regular Joes. That's where transparency broke down, because distribution was unregulated and unsupervised. And yet, good sealed boxes ended up just where VB wanted them to be pre-release.
@3stars said:
By this logic Vegas should be bankrupt and a ghost town.
Vegas provides other value. Sure, the basic driver is separating the marks from their money. But they make it fun. Sightseeing, shows, food...
All you have left after VB is the wrapper == trash
But you have 3 coins and the memory! No one can take that away from you😎
So now that we have achieved broad consensus that there is nothing wrong with marketing this, or buying it, and that inherent value is not necessary because, well, Vegas, state lotteries, 7-11, sports card hobby boxes, etc., who among us is actually in for Series 2, assuming 2021 Morgan and Peace Dollars are added to the mix of modern bullion, other than maybe to flip unopened on eBay?
Bueller? Bueller?
If the answer is no one, why 10 pages of back a forth about how great these are for the hobby, but just not for US, while brow beating naysayers?
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
It’s fully apparent that you made an opinion early on, and are sticking with that opinion no matter what anyone says. You talk about “discussion”, but you aren’t really interested in anyone else’s ideas. You just want people to listen to yours.
In fact, in order to stick to your opinion, you’ve created this false dichotomy. Everyone is either against VB, or is shilling for VB. Surely you can comprehend that there are other possibilities. Creating this “us against them” idea, you are able to fight anyone who disagrees with you in a drama war to see who wins. It is clear that this drama is a great source of entertainment for you, and this realization has made me regret ever getting involved.
It’s not just you, the LARGE majority of the world’s population online no longer have the ability to change their mind. Opinions are cemented, and almost all discussion on social media is pointless.
@NJCoin said:
But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
It’s fully apparent that you made an opinion early on, and are sticking with that opinion no matter what anyone says. You talk about “discussion”, but you aren’t really interested in anyone else’s ideas. You just want people to listen to yours.
In fact, in order to stick to your opinion, you’ve created this false dichotomy. Everyone is either against VB, or is shilling for VB. Surely you can comprehend that there are other possibilities. Creating this “us against them” idea, you are able to fight anyone who disagrees with you in a drama war to see who wins. It is clear that this drama is a great source of entertainment for you, and this realization has made me regret ever getting involved.
It’s not just you, the LARGE majority of the world’s population online no longer have the ability to change their mind. Opinions are cemented, and almost all discussion on social media is pointless.
No denying it. That said, it absolutely is possible to have a discussion while sticking to an opinion, so I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, it really is kind of binary. Either you think VB is a good idea or you don't.
For the record, I totally am open to changing my mind. In fact, I've stated what changes I'd like to see, and conceded that the concept is not a terrible idea on its face. So, there's that.
Rather than respond constructively to me, the fanboys have chosen to lecture me on elitism, accuse me of wanting to dictate how others have "fun," defend the indefensible, and to extend every benefit of every doubt to the purveyors as though they were on trial for their lives, meaning that every question had to be resolved beyond any reasonable doubt, as opposed to acknowledging that the optics of smoke indicate the possibility of fire, and allowing observers to form an opinion based on the optics.
So, I plead NOT GUILTY to having a cemented opinion. Or of being wrong about the red flags raised before the on sale date, and about how every questionable thing that could possibly happen ended up manifesting once distribution began.
Aside from some personal attacks, I think the VB discussion and debate has been productive. We’ve also touched on a lot of important hobby debates. Lot of good points have been made and my thinking has evolved. I continue to post to the thread because the responses are worthwhile for me. YMMV.
No one has gotten banned and the thread is still open, carry on!
@Project Numismatics said:
No one has gotten banned and the thread is still open, carry on!
It's the weekend... the mice play while the cat is away.
Anyway... ,my summary: I think VB is a terrible idea. I still believe it's an illegal lottery - nothing said here has changed my mind. The economics will drive away more people than it attracts to the hobby and the few gamblers who remain will not be beneficial members.
Remember the basic idea of attracting new members to coin collecting is so there's somebody to buy your estate when you die. Thus maximizing the money left to the heirs and spares. Do you really think a gambler is going to buy your collection of Seated Half Dime die marriages?
Tucked away here and there have been some interesting tidbits.
But I'll be honest, like many of you, I come here to watch the trains wreck. I might even be guilty of fiddling with a few tie plates along the way
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@BStrauss3 said:
Anyway... ,my summary: I think VB is a terrible idea. I still believe it's an illegal lottery - nothing said here has changed my mind.
A couple of questions regarding illegality... Do you think the VaultBox people put together their business without consulting an attorney? Do you think NGC agreed to put their name on the slabs included in VaultBoxes without running the idea past their legal department?
edited to add... VaultBox appears to be located in California. Does California require permits/licenses to start/run a business? Would they approve either if the business was proposing an illegal operation?
@Project Numismatics said:
No one has gotten banned and the thread is still open, carry on!
It's the weekend... the mice play while the cat is away.
Anyway... ,my summary: I think VB is a terrible idea. I still believe it's an illegal lottery - nothing said here has changed my mind. The economics will drive away more people than it attracts to the hobby and the few gamblers who remain will not be beneficial members.
Remember the basic idea of attracting new members to coin collecting is so there's somebody to buy your estate when you die. Thus maximizing the money left to the heirs and spares. Do you really think a gambler is going to buy your collection of Seated Half Dime die marriages?
Tucked away here and there have been some interesting tidbits.
But I'll be honest, like many of you, I come here to watch the trains wreck. I might even be guilty of fiddling with a few tie plates along the way
Totally agree with everything other than the fact that the lottery is, in fact, perfectly legal. I don't know about Minshull or PWCC, but I am quite confident that NGC would not be involved in anything illegal.
Unregulated, yes. Illegal, no.
So, I'm just jumping in to throw that out there before @jmlanzaf has the chance. Topps was a public company that has been involved in the space forever. It's legal, although I agree it does nothing for our hobby for all of the reasons discussed ad infinitum.
@BStrauss3 said:
Anyway... ,my summary: I think VB is a terrible idea. I still believe it's an illegal lottery - nothing said here has changed my mind.
A couple of questions regarding illegality... Do you think the VaultBox people put together their business without consulting an attorney? Do you think NGC agreed to put their name on the slabs included in VaultBoxes without running the idea past their legal department?
VaultBox? Who knows, since they did plenty of things in connection with this that seem sketchy. NGC? Totally agree.
And, as I said below, the fact that sports card hobby boxes have been doing something similar, forever, without regulatory interference validates that the "lottery" has been structured in a way that is perfectly legal.
Seriously, what is the point of you writing all that? You’ve said those things over and over and over again. No way you could possibly be replying to anyone because nobody said anything to you. Just because someone started this nonsense again (apparently they think it’s funny), you don’t have to reply.
If you feel like you are performing some kind of public service, you’re not. We all get it. We all know precisely how you feel about VB because you’ve said it so many times.
Fair enough. Similarly, why don't you question why @jmlanzaf is posting nothing new to a zombie thread?
"They should be announcing the composition soon. There will supposedly be 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars in it perv the interview I posted. Modern commems might be fun." is hardly newsworthy. I'm posting for whoever might stumble across the thread. Not you, or @jmlanzaf, or @MasonG, or @WQuarterFreddie.
We also know that none of them are customers or connected to VB, but are all somehow invested in its success. Whatever. There are two solutions for anyone who is annoyed. Stop posting the same repetitive crap, inviting the same repetitive responses you find annoying. Or simply ignore me.
They are engaging in a form of marketing under the guise of a discussion. They are not genuinely interested in buying, other than at a steep discount to the offering price, and I think that is worth repeating, as often as they feel the need to market.
For the record, I did not respond to any of the "funny" posts trying to get the thread going again. I only responded when @jmlanzaf accepted the invitation and picked up where he left off. I then did the same.
Is the info about the Morgan and Peace dollars not new?
I legitimately don’t know, as I will not read every post here.
It's news if you didn't watch the 40 minute video I posted.
I just mentioned it as one of the things I wish could be discussed. They haven't announced anything about the sets but they were supposed to be curated around a theme so I'm thinking maybe modern dollar commems.
Probably clad statehood quarters in 69DCAM. Gotta collect them all in matching VB holders. Declared value of $95 per coin 😂
Comments
Lots of people wear Price Guide Blinders, where the prices shown in them are correct and anything that differs is wrong.
If that's true, VB needs to identify and market to them, because they won't be upset receiving $300 worth of coins if the Guide says they are worth $500. No evidence of that so far.
The test will come when Series 2 is released. If you guys are right, there will be a lot of repeat customers excitedly breaking seals to reveal their treasures. OTOH, if most of the buyers are just looking to flip unopened boxes to greater fools on eBay, this experiment might end up having a shelf life only a little bit longer than that convenience store milk.
It takes time.
In the mean time, those who paid up for the VaultBox/NCGX label are paying the tax.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I don't care to convince them. They paid a stupid tax trying to flip something. Not every flip works.
Does anyone think the flippers have helped US Mint releases?
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
As long as markets function, I'm not really worried about it.> @BStrauss3 said:
Actually, the flippers have been a huge help on Mint releases. They create the illusion of value and scarcity and actually help drive the frenzy. They also promote and sell a lot of product that otherwise wouldn't sell. Or haven't you noticed the general lack of enthusiasm over Mint releases in the last 2 years, not to mention the lack of sell outs. The increase in prices as well as the stricter HHL as pushed flippers out and Mint sales and secondary market value has decreased.
Now, "collectors" who just want one in their collection don't care, at least not until it is time to sell. There's more to the market than just "collectors".
The flipping game is complex. I think it goes product to product as to effect.
Flippers promote but they also dump on the market which will depress prices.
Also they panic flip too early or hold too long. Its complex. The Morgan/Peace flipper face a different market than the straight bullion guys.
Also lets not forget that the market will always function, it's a question of integrity in the long run. Assuming you are in it for the long run.....some are not.
The people who buy scratchoff lottery tickets pay a similar tax. Do you think they don't know it?
TOTALLY agree!! I was speaking to the people arguing that the product is well priced because VB's costs are high, analogizing to how convenience store prices are higher than Walmart.
My point was that people here do not need to be convinced, because we are not convenience store shoppers. The people who need to be convinced are the people who, as you said, paid the tax and have been complaining about it ever since.
They need to be convinced that they received good value, not because their 2015 MS69 ASE is worth more than any other 2015 MS69 ASE (@jmlanzaf already demonstrated to all of us that it is not), but because they bought it at 7-11 instead of Walmart.
Yup. I think they don't know it.
They are the same people who complain about other taxes. They are not enthusiastic tax payers. They are dreamers who are being sold a fantasy. No, I don't think they realize they are paying a regressive tax that actually serves to lower the taxes paid by other, more wealthy people.
It's all good, and people are certainly free to voluntarily pay extra taxes while chasing a dream. But no, if was framed to them the way I am describing it, I'm sure lottery sales would be lower than they are. That's just not how lottery tickets are sold.
Similarly, if the pre-release VB unboxing videos showed what the vast majority of people breaking seals experienced, instead of being staged to illustrate a fantasy, enthusiasm for the product would have been a lot lower than it was. VB absolutely knew what it was doing with its marketing, and it wasn't marketing the product as being the tax @BStrauss3 accurately described.
The proof will be in seeing how many people who experienced $300 worth of "fun" while buying $300 worth of coins for $600 come back for more "fun" in Series 2.
What will it prove though? Lottery ticket buyers may or may not know they are getting “taxed”, but they keep playing. I view the lottery as a tax but I’ve still bought tickets here or there as part of an office pool or just for fun.
VB customers may or may not understand the value they are receiving - I’m not sure that’s the driver regardless. I think you are implying that the market is rational and all are solely seeking to maximize economic self-interest. Clearly that’s not the case or no one would ever gamble in Vegas. I don’t think the success of VB2 will necessarily reflect the economic value proposition. People are buying these boxes for other reasons as we’ve talked about quite a bit.
You can keep telling people this but some are determined to not understand.
By this logic Vegas should be bankrupt and a ghost town.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm trying to say that most lottery players don't actually understand how bad a deal the lottery is. I also play when the prize gets crazy high, knowing full well I am throwing money away. But I am not a regular weekly player.
I honestly, really, truly, think VB is different, and that most coin collectors are not happy go lucky gamblers eager to donate $600 to the Minshull family fortune. I might be wrong. Time will tell. But the fact remains that everyone saying that I just don't get it, or that I am determined to not understand, are also not players. So, they are helping to prove my point, like it or not.
My point, for the umpteenth time, is that most coin collectors are indeed looking for value, regardless of whether or not they also enjoy playing a lottery. VB was marketed in a very clever way, and I think people did not fully understand what they were buying before they broke the seal. Several very knowledgeable people right here on this forum also did not fully understand how things would work before they saw it for themselves.
Now the cat's out of the bag, and the response is surveys and the prospect of working out "kinks." It remains to be seen whether that flies. I think that people in this space do understand value, and are not going to be willing to pay $600 for $300 worth of coins plus a Powerball ticket with a 1/800 shot at a $20,000 top prize, with a few smaller prizes sprinkled in, that has an implicit value of less than $100.
Yes, people go to Vegas. Lights, shows, pools, food, and gambling with a 90%+ return of every dollar placed at risk. Very different experience from sitting home, having the FedEx guy ring the bell, breaking open a seal, and having an 80% chance of seeing $1 instantly turn into 50 cents, with a small shot at actually getting your money back, and a VERY small shot at maybe turning $600 into a few thousand dollars. No lights. No women in scanty outfits. No free drinks. Doesn't like as much fun as some are making it out to be.
That clarification is helpful - but I don’t know if people buying these boxes are really seeking economic value or failed to understand the economics of VB1 - especially if they came from outside the existing collector base.
Therefore I’m not convinced Round 2 success is predictable one way or the other or reflective of the economics.
I also don’t think lottery players are as naive as you think.
Come on, man. You keep talking like you could save the world from making mistakes if only people would listen to your sage advice, but you have yet to say anything that isn’t readily available to anyone who cares to know.
People flock to Vegas and gamble. When they lose, they are disappointed, and even complain about how much money they lost. And you know what? They keep coming back. There’s excitement in the possibility of winning for them. The odds working against them are very easy to find online, but they just don’t care. You could stand by the front door of a casino (or lottery scratch off machine), and share your wisdom with them. You could tell them that they are paying stupid tax, but they just won’t care. They’re having fun. Yes, fun that you or me wouldn’t have, but FUN.
You did not voice any information that many other people didn’t also voice about VB. You weren’t vindicated by the results because you only know of a very small percentage of the results. Even some of those disappointed people who complained will buy VB again. It doesn’t have to make sense to you. Those people have no need to help you make sense of it.
Look, man. I’m a math teacher. Logic is what I do, and illogical things can drive me crazy. We just have to accept that many people do illogical things, and that can be fun for them. They don’t need to be saved by people like us.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
People who don't collect coins think it's illogical to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a penny. Do collectors need to be saved from their lack of logic?
Asking for a non-collector friend...
I would actually find it very amusing for a non-collector to try to explain to me that I am wasting my money. Maybe for a minute, then it would be annoying. I collect Chuck E. Cheese Tokens FFS
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Your points are well taken. I'm just screening out the noise coming from everyone pontificating here, including myself. I'm relying on feedback from actual buyers, as well as complaints implied by the fact that VB sent out surveys and promised changes.
I also don't see any evidence that card collectors not already involved in numismatics were enticed by the prospect of a $600 hobby box containing things they don't already collect. The whole idea behind NGCX was to bring card collectors in to coins, by making the grading scale familiar to them. VB took that to the next level by offering them a familiar hobby box, probably with similar economics. What could go wrong?
Maybe the fact that you are now selling to people who won't pay $5 to attend a coin show, as opposed to folks who pay hundreds of dollars to attend other types of collector conventions? The fact remains that no one pimping for it now, here, was a buyer, and very few, if any, of the common person buyers are saying they were happy and plan on going back for more, other than to maybe flip unopened.
I agree about lottery buyers. After a Powerball drawing, you don't see a bunch of people on the internet complaining they got screwed. Compare that with common person feedback among VB buyers.
Some of the people who don't understand the value others see in VaultBox have been trying to explain how it's a mistake to buy them for a lot longer than a minute.
One of the guys in the coin club I used to belong to had a huge Chuck E. Cheese Token collection. I had no idea there might be so many different ones.
The complete collection is over 400 tokens!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
How hard is it to complete? Are there unique or nearly unique pieces that make it impossible?
That’s a great point - I’m sure many non collectors would find it ridiculous to spend $10, $1,000 or $1M on a penny.
What got you into Chuck E Cheese tokens? Almost seems like the modern version of store cards.
Maybe. We'll see. People go to Vegas for more than the opportunity to spin a wheel and then go home. And, the expected return from a dollar placed at risk in Vegas is multiples better than VB, and is regulated on top of it. Apples vs. rotten fruit.
Lottery sales would be lower if negatives were fully disclosed along with the possibility of riches. That's just a fact of marketing.
It's why cigarettes have explicit warnings on the package, when once upon a time they were endorsed by doctors. And, when the warnings weren't enough to get the job done, mass market advertising was banned altogether.
And guess, what? It worked. Consumption is now in a death spiral and tobacco companies are searching for the next Big Thing. People really do sometimes need to be saved from themselves, and from deceptive marketing (attractive people riding horses and frolicking on a beach as opposed to attached to an artificial lung).
Doesn't matter. I'm no longer trying to save anyone from anything, and I'm honestly not equating VB to cigarettes. Just saying that people are often induced by clever marketing to make decisions against their best interests, and it's not always a pointless waste of time to try to counteract it. I'm just responding to hypocritical expressions of support from people who are smart enough not to put their money where their mouths are.
There are many that are extremely hard to find, and one in particular that has only 3-5 known to exist. I’m not aware of anyone other than maybe a collector named Roy Hudnell who has ever assembled a complete collection.
There are no mintage figures, and many of them have been destroyed. In fact, there is almost no information at all about many of the tokens. It’s taken me a decade to find the information I have found. My collection is probably 85-90% complete!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/rochester-man-scores-football-card-valued-at-125000-from-local-shop/amp/
Consumer protection regulations definitely serve their purpose. But I’m not particularly worried that anyone is gambling their family’s rent money or at risk of addiction from buying a VB.
That said, they should have been more transparency about value and distribution.
As a kid from the 70s and 80s, Chuck E. Cheese was a big deal...amazing in fact. I'm a huge retro video game nerd, and I guess it came naturally, as a collector, to look into video game tokens.
Also, I was kind of fascinated that there was so little information about them, and I have very much enjoyed the the research involved to assemble a useable guide. Most of the tokens in my collection cost me $1.00 or less. Once I got to some of the rare ones, I had to pay more. I think the most expensive one I've bought was about $100. A Santa Anna token (3-5 known to exist) sometimes becomes available at $500-$1000, but I haven't felt comfortable pulling the trigger on that.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
It’s actually surprising what percentage of lottery players think that they’ll hit it big.
https://www.fa-mag.com/news/nearly-60-percent-of-millennials-eyeing-a-lottery-win-as-their-retirement-plan-44389.html
That's pretty good, sounds like a difficult task. My main interest is world coins and the local coin shop dealer puts most of that stuff in a box when he buys it and gives it to me to sort/catalog, I get to buy whatever I'm interested in at a good price. There are always a bunch of tokens, Chuck E. Cheese included. From having known the coin club guy, I wonder about them (and lots of the others, too) but trying to find info/pricing on so many of them is an incredible time sink.
My sister's family is real big on scratchoffs. Whenever she visits me (we're not in the same state), she buys a ton of them to take home since the games are different. Interestingly enough, although none of them expect to get rich, my sister and her husband won a million dollars last year.
Here’s mine. Is it worth hundreds of dollars? I do have a diverse collection. Some of this, a little of that 😁
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
They listed all the coins that were in all the boxes. They couldn't have been more transparent.
https://vaultbox.com/distribution/series1/
Unfortunately, those are very common.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Here's a very rare variety. I've looked through many thousands of tokens, and I've only ever seen this one and one other. The variety is characterized by the poor spacing of Chuck E. Cheese. It reads "ChuckE. Cheese". There are other minor stylized differences as well. I have no idea why this exists, and since this was created in the die, why there are not more of them.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Maybe after taking a look at them, they decided to scrap them and a few escaped.
Agree. It's not about anyone becoming homeless because they bought a VB. It's about people being induced into paying $600 for a 1 in 800 chance at a $23,000 coin, and maybe having no chance at all, because distribution is unregulated and unsupervised.
I'm not even suggesting that there should be laws against what they are doing. I'm just saying that what they are doing with distribution undermines everything they made a big deal about with packing and sealing. And sealing was kind of a farce, given how people were able to analyze plastic boxes from the outside and determined the weight and metallic content of what was inside.
People can and will make their own determinations. People who like throwing away money on hobby boxes are a likely market, if VB can only get them interested in coins. People who complain about the price of hot dogs at a coin show, not so much.
Seems crazy, but proves my point. I guarantee they don't really understand how bad their odds are, or how little of every dollar collected funds the prize pool. I'm suggesting we outlaw the lottery, but I am suggesting that the typical coin collector is a lot sharper than the typical lottery player.
Yes, they listed the coins. But they certainly could have been more transparent. They didn't say they'd be sending a platinum one out to Shaun, or a gold one out to PWCC, before the game began.
Since that happened, no one knows just how many of the red cores listed on their website were distributed to Regular Joes. That's where transparency broke down, because distribution was unregulated and unsupervised. And yet, good sealed boxes ended up just where VB wanted them to be pre-release.
Vegas provides other value. Sure, the basic driver is separating the marks from their money. But they make it fun. Sightseeing, shows, food...
All you have left after VB is the wrapper == trash
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
But you have 3 coins and the memory! No one can take that away from you😎
So now that we have achieved broad consensus that there is nothing wrong with marketing this, or buying it, and that inherent value is not necessary because, well, Vegas, state lotteries, 7-11, sports card hobby boxes, etc., who among us is actually in for Series 2, assuming 2021 Morgan and Peace Dollars are added to the mix of modern bullion, other than maybe to flip unopened on eBay?
Bueller? Bueller?
If the answer is no one, why 10 pages of back a forth about how great these are for the hobby, but just not for US, while brow beating naysayers?
It’s fully apparent that you made an opinion early on, and are sticking with that opinion no matter what anyone says. You talk about “discussion”, but you aren’t really interested in anyone else’s ideas. You just want people to listen to yours.
In fact, in order to stick to your opinion, you’ve created this false dichotomy. Everyone is either against VB, or is shilling for VB. Surely you can comprehend that there are other possibilities. Creating this “us against them” idea, you are able to fight anyone who disagrees with you in a drama war to see who wins. It is clear that this drama is a great source of entertainment for you, and this realization has made me regret ever getting involved.
It’s not just you, the LARGE majority of the world’s population online no longer have the ability to change their mind. Opinions are cemented, and almost all discussion on social media is pointless.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
No denying it. That said, it absolutely is possible to have a discussion while sticking to an opinion, so I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, it really is kind of binary. Either you think VB is a good idea or you don't.
For the record, I totally am open to changing my mind. In fact, I've stated what changes I'd like to see, and conceded that the concept is not a terrible idea on its face. So, there's that.
Rather than respond constructively to me, the fanboys have chosen to lecture me on elitism, accuse me of wanting to dictate how others have "fun," defend the indefensible, and to extend every benefit of every doubt to the purveyors as though they were on trial for their lives, meaning that every question had to be resolved beyond any reasonable doubt, as opposed to acknowledging that the optics of smoke indicate the possibility of fire, and allowing observers to form an opinion based on the optics.
So, I plead NOT GUILTY to having a cemented opinion. Or of being wrong about the red flags raised before the on sale date, and about how every questionable thing that could possibly happen ended up manifesting once distribution began.
Aside from some personal attacks, I think the VB discussion and debate has been productive. We’ve also touched on a lot of important hobby debates. Lot of good points have been made and my thinking has evolved. I continue to post to the thread because the responses are worthwhile for me. YMMV.
No one has gotten banned and the thread is still open, carry on!
It's the weekend... the mice play while the cat is away.
Anyway... ,my summary: I think VB is a terrible idea. I still believe it's an illegal lottery - nothing said here has changed my mind. The economics will drive away more people than it attracts to the hobby and the few gamblers who remain will not be beneficial members.
Remember the basic idea of attracting new members to coin collecting is so there's somebody to buy your estate when you die. Thus maximizing the money left to the heirs and spares. Do you really think a gambler is going to buy your collection of Seated Half Dime die marriages?
Tucked away here and there have been some interesting tidbits.
But I'll be honest, like many of you, I come here to watch the trains wreck. I might even be guilty of fiddling with a few tie plates along the way
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
A couple of questions regarding illegality... Do you think the VaultBox people put together their business without consulting an attorney? Do you think NGC agreed to put their name on the slabs included in VaultBoxes without running the idea past their legal department?
edited to add... VaultBox appears to be located in California. Does California require permits/licenses to start/run a business? Would they approve either if the business was proposing an illegal operation?
Just a couple more questions...
Totally agree with everything other than the fact that the lottery is, in fact, perfectly legal. I don't know about Minshull or PWCC, but I am quite confident that NGC would not be involved in anything illegal.
Unregulated, yes. Illegal, no.
So, I'm just jumping in to throw that out there before @jmlanzaf has the chance. Topps was a public company that has been involved in the space forever. It's legal, although I agree it does nothing for our hobby for all of the reasons discussed ad infinitum.
VaultBox? Who knows, since they did plenty of things in connection with this that seem sketchy. NGC? Totally agree.
And, as I said below, the fact that sports card hobby boxes have been doing something similar, forever, without regulatory interference validates that the "lottery" has been structured in a way that is perfectly legal.
Fourteen hours without a post. Where is everybody?
Probably clad statehood quarters in 69DCAM. Gotta collect them all in matching VB holders. Declared value of $95 per coin 😂