@hfjacinto said:
And will CAC create a forum? And will they get questions about the value of coins found in a parking lot? That have been runned over by the op?
@hfjacinto said:
And will CAC create a forum? And will they get questions about the value of coins found in a parking lot? That have been runned over by the op?
@SIowhand said:
If their plan is to only grade/slab strictly original coins, it will be an awesome service.
There is zero chance of that as several CAC-stickered coins have been dipped (or "gently dipped" as @winesteven likes to say) and JA made it clear that CAC-stickered coins will cross into the new CAC holder.
@Cougar1978 said:
It will be interesting how it shakes out and how other TPG’s respond and the impact on player business decisions. How will auctions be impacted?
His video addresses how C coins will be treated and I suggest you take a look if you have not seen it. I plan to view it again especially that part.
If my understanding of his video is correct only A or B coins will get his TPG grade say 65. C coins would get 64. So no need stickers on his CAC TPG graded coins. They would continue to sticker non CAC TPG coins that are A or B. And CPG for CAC would be consistent for MV for both his graded coins and coins of other TPG he stickered. As an x college accounting instructor I like the consistency of this. Beyond that it’s still a while off.
This was my initial impression as well, but after viewing it again more carefully,
I realized that he was talking specifically about dark toned coins.
See my post from last night, which includes a transcription of what was said: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13353422/#Comment_13353422
John Feigenbaum (the interviewer) agreed too - see his post (JohnF) shortly below mine.
JA and his grading team have a higher standard of what constitutes a problem coin (deserving of a details grade) than PC or NGC. If you've ever discussed with JA why a coin didn't sticker, you'll understand what I mean. I invite you to ask JA whether CAC grading company will straight grade coins that make the technical grade but would not have otherwise received a sticker (because it was a C coin).
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
Actually, they will details holder all C coins. If a coin that comes into CAC grading company raw (unlike with stickering where it comes in already graded), the first thing the graders will do is to determine if it has been cleaned, recolored, doctored, etc.... If so, it will be deemed a C coin and put into a details holder. Because CAC will use the same standards they currently do with stickering, the percentage of coins "body bagged" or details holdered at CAC will be higher than at PCGS or NGC. They will only holder nice coins.
After determining that a coin doesn't have problems, they will then assign a grade. As a grading company, CAC will not have to deal with a grade already assigned by PCGS or NGC (unless it is evaluating a cross over). Thus, a coin will not be deemed a C coin solely because CAC thinks it is over graded (because it will be evaluating a raw coin.
Like it or not, CAC tough standards should not change. CAC mission is to have all "nice" coins (regardless of grade) in CAC holders.
I think you’re dead wrong in stating that CAC “will details holder all C coins”.
A “C coin” isn’t synonymous with a problem coin that deserves a details-grade.
If you like to keep your coins in one TPG's slab (e.g., for PCGS registry purposes, or for the sake of aesthetics/uniformity or for whatever reason), an additional viable grading service means there will be greater dispersion of coins in various holders in the market and a greater chance that a coin you want to buy is not in your preferred holder. I would expect more crossover fees. I don't see how this benefits collectors.
@joebb21 said:
One thing that cac brought back into the market in my opinion was the ability to trade coins "sight unseen" with an extra level of confidence.
My experience was once a coin was cac stickered, buyers had even more confidence that the coin truly was a nice coin and had good eye appeal.
Ugly 65s that are downgraded to 64 and nice pq 64s are not specifically equal.
As John Albanese numismatics still plans to buy and sell quality coins, I would have to imagine that somehow on the label it will have some type of designation to identify whether this coin is worthy of a sticker or pq that the same "sight unseen" market could be kept up
There is no correlation between a CAC sticker and good eye appeal. Only a correctly graded coin. I would think a CAC graded slab would be based on the same principles used to grade green and gold stickers for PCGS slabs. Problem coins with cleaning pvc and such would get a details grade. A and B coins will be assigned the the correct MS grade for that particular coin. So a MS 65 new slab CAC coin would equal a PCGS MS 65 green sticker coin. It’s as simple as that. People are making it more complicated than it seems.
Interesting idea. I personally don't like the fact they he'll be phasing out the sticker. It's something that the market demands, and collectors have embraced. I can see another stickering company rising up to fill that void.
Collector 75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting! instagram.com/klnumismatics
@cmerlo1 said:
Up next: The announcement of a new company to review and sticker CAC-graded coins.
It would be funny if PCGS would establish a service to review and sticker those CAC slabbed coins that they deem worthy of a PCGS sticker.
I kinda like the current system where a pcgs slab may or not be stickered by CAC.
By having both services view a particular coin and agree on the grade seems to be a more valuable opinion than just a one service opinion .......at least to me.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I think 58 gold CAC stickered coins will climb. Those are coins that will jump the most in grade. I don’t believe those are 1 grade under. I bet many jump to 62 or even 63. Have fun searching.
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
Actually, they will details holder all C coins. If a coin that comes into CAC grading company raw (unlike with stickering where it comes in already graded), the first thing the graders will do is to determine if it has been cleaned, recolored, doctored, etc.... If so, it will be deemed a C coin and put into a details holder. Because CAC will use the same standards they currently do with stickering, the percentage of coins "body bagged" or details holdered at CAC will be higher than at PCGS or NGC. They will only holder nice coins.
After determining that a coin doesn't have problems, they will then assign a grade. As a grading company, CAC will not have to deal with a grade already assigned by PCGS or NGC (unless it is evaluating a cross over). Thus, a coin will not be deemed a C coin solely because CAC thinks it is over graded (because it will be evaluating a raw coin.
Like it or not, CAC tough standards should not change. CAC mission is to have all "nice" coins (regardless of grade) in CAC holders.
That is not what a "C" coin is. Do a little research. This is all false.
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
JA and his grading team have a higher standard of what constitutes a problem coin (deserving of a details grade) than PC or NGC. If you've ever discussed with JA why a coin didn't sticker, you'll understand what I mean. I invite you to ask JA whether CAC grading company will straight grade coins that make the technical grade but would not have otherwise received a sticker (because it was a C coin).
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
Actually, they will details holder all C coins. If a coin that comes into CAC grading company raw (unlike with stickering where it comes in already graded), the first thing the graders will do is to determine if it has been cleaned, recolored, doctored, etc.... If so, it will be deemed a C coin and put into a details holder. Because CAC will use the same standards they currently do with stickering, the percentage of coins "body bagged" or details holdered at CAC will be higher than at PCGS or NGC. They will only holder nice coins.
After determining that a coin doesn't have problems, they will then assign a grade. As a grading company, CAC will not have to deal with a grade already assigned by PCGS or NGC (unless it is evaluating a cross over). Thus, a coin will not be deemed a C coin solely because CAC thinks it is over graded (because it will be evaluating a raw coin.
Like it or not, CAC tough standards should not change. CAC mission is to have all "nice" coins (regardless of grade) in CAC holders.
I think you’re dead wrong in stating that CAC “will details holder all C coins”.
A “C coin” isn’t synonymous with a problem coin that deserves a details-grade.
Try reading their website. A C coin does not have to be a problem coin. Do sone research and then retract this before you confuse newbies.
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
Actually, they will details holder all C coins. If a coin that comes into CAC grading company raw (unlike with stickering where it comes in already graded), the first thing the graders will do is to determine if it has been cleaned, recolored, doctored, etc.... If so, it will be deemed a C coin and put into a details holder. Because CAC will use the same standards they currently do with stickering, the percentage of coins "body bagged" or details holdered at CAC will be higher than at PCGS or NGC. They will only holder nice coins.
After determining that a coin doesn't have problems, they will then assign a grade. As a grading company, CAC will not have to deal with a grade already assigned by PCGS or NGC (unless it is evaluating a cross over). Thus, a coin will not be deemed a C coin solely because CAC thinks it is over graded (because it will be evaluating a raw coin.
Like it or not, CAC tough standards should not change. CAC mission is to have all "nice" coins (regardless of grade) in CAC holders.
I think you’re dead wrong in stating that CAC “will details holder all C coins”.
A “C coin” isn’t synonymous with a problem coin that deserves a details-grade.
You're too humble. You "think" he's dead wrong? I know he's dead wrong based on CAC's own definitions and JA's numerous interviews.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Did anyone else notice in their email that they would control demand with pricing? That was an eye opener for me.
How so? I’m not surprised they’re operating a business like a business. In fact I had this discussion with a LCS-owner about this on Wednesday and I suggested that CAC raise their prices to increase service levels.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Did anyone else notice in their email that they would control demand with pricing? That was an eye opener for me.
Charge too little, get more submissions than you can handle and everybody whines because the wait is so long.
Charge too much, limit submissions to insure a decent turn-around time and everybody whines because it costs so much.
@pcgscacgold said:
I think 58 gold CAC stickered coins will climb. Those are coins that will jump the most in grade. I don’t believe those are 1 grade under. I bet many jump to 62 or even 63. Have fun searching.
It's possible there's a stronger demand for AU58 gold stickers by owners of Everyman Sets.
@pcgscacgold said:
I think 58 gold CAC stickered coins will climb. Those are coins that will jump the most in grade. I don’t believe those are 1 grade under. I bet many jump to 62 or even 63. Have fun searching.
It's possible there's a stronger demand for AU58 gold stickers by owners of Everyman Sets.
Yes, but the news of CAC grading propels this grade.
Read most all of the comments, watched the interview last night ... got the letter today.
While I think it might be difficult to wade into the pool otherwise, they are, in affect, already swimming, so it's just a matter of moving forward and expanding their lane.
interesting times.
Just thoughts ...
We know consistency matters.
Generally speaking, CAC has been fairly consistent. The TPG's have been a little less so, but still more so than the days before standardized grading spawned the TPG's. Greater consistency and repeatability would be welcome.
I would personally like to see less "details" coins in "straight" holders as it devalues good coins, and inhibits overall pricing. While sometimes that discrepancy is great for the buyer with a keen eye, it creates other issues.
. We know reputation matters.
I think John and team have this in spades, so they should have a shot, and not have to deal with the "who are these chuckleheads?" issues that an unknown entity would receive. PCGS and NGC survive because of perceived reputation and the value that offers as well.
. We know the current turn-around and pricing to "process" a coin for marketability matters.
In the fast moving world we live in, a well accepted competitor can help a market that has had few real players in recent years by pushing the end-user mandate forward. In the video, John makes solid points about the money required to "process" coins, but the same must be remembered for the time involved. Especially in business, time is money, after all. And the market has moved towards certification for lesser and lesser valued coins, so the combination has to work for the price points available.
.
Other than turn-around, which seems to me to be a stifling issue for dealers bringing coins to market, and the overall cost, I think the end-user mandate falls back to consistency of the certification of quality by a service, which makes quality, price discovery and value easier to access. I think secondary requirements are for a well-designed, image and viewing friendly holder; data and image presentations to encourage knowledge, learning, quality and price discovery within the hobby; and showplaces for displaying and comparing coins and sets on-line.
Our host has done a terrific job advancing the marketplace in all of these respects (in my opinion), but they probably need the push towards protecting the quality of the product (somewhat), and also in reducing the turn-around (maybe more than a little).
From what I have seen, NGC could probably use a less subtle push towards a more consistent, and less forgiving offering (again, in my opinion).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Will PCGS or NGC allow CAC slabs into their registry? If not, will CAC start their own registry? If they do, how many collectors with PCGS or NGC registries cross all their coins over to CAC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
Will PCGS or NGC allow CAC slabs into their registry? If not, will CAC start their own registry? If they do, how many collectors with PCGS or NGC registries cross all their coins over to CAC?
CAC has announced they’re starting TWO registries - one registry will accept coins in PCGS, NGC, and CAC holders (with OR without CAC stickers) (and I think I read, but am not positive, ANACS holders as well). The other registry will be for coins in any holder with a CAC sticker, as well as the new CAC holder. Plus grades will have more registry points/value in each of the two registries than non plus grades.
As you can see, there’s no need to cross to get into the CAC registries. I do NOT plan to cross my coins, as I want to also remain in the PCGS Registry. While I have not read of any comment from PCGS, my guess is they will not allow CAC holders in their registry (other than possibly only into the PCGS CAC Composite sets).
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I believe that competition, especially quality competition, ultimately benefits the consumer.
There are a lot of broad statements regarding CAC grading and standards.
Remember that each coin is evaluated on it's merits.
Over the years I've observed that CAC grading standards are consistantly the highest in the industry.
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
My sense is there won't be much price separation between the coins in the new CAC holders and other TPG holders with CAC stickers, especially PCGS holders with CAC stickers. Regardless, as noted above, I don't plan to cross anything over, especially since my PCGS/CAC coins (including their "+" grades) will be eligible for all Registries. Coins in the new CAC holders may POSSIBLY not be eligible for the PCGS regular registry sets.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
Not necessary as the collector can always opt for their coins to get stickers by CAC
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
Not necessary as the collector can always opt for their coins to get stickers by CAC
Not necessarily always, as it sounds like the stickering might be phased out. From CAC:
“It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
People will have a choice but nobody will be forced to cross their coins. If it's financially advantageous, then do it. If not, don't.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
My sense is there won't be much price separation between the coins in the new CAC holders and other TPG holders with CAC stickers, especially PCGS holders with CAC stickers. Regardless, as noted above, I don't plan to cross anything over, especially since my PCGS/CAC coins (including their "+" grades) will be eligible for all Registries. Coins in the new CAC holders may POSSIBLY not be eligible for the PCGS regular registry sets.
Steve
Would it make sense for you if you could cross your coins for a New CAC holder plus sticker? Is that more valuable and prestigious than a PCGS plus green sticker
My sense is there won't be much price separation between the coins in the new CAC holders and other TPG holders with CAC stickers, especially PCGS holders with CAC stickers. Regardless, as noted above, I don't plan to cross anything over, especially since my PCGS/CAC coins (including their "+" grades) will be eligible for all Registries. Coins in the new CAC holders may POSSIBLY not be eligible for the PCGS regular registry sets.
Steve
Would it make sense for you if you could cross your coins for a New CAC holder plus sticker? Is that more valuable and prestigious than a PCGS plus green sticker
To me, with what I know now, no.
IF PCGS chooses to not allow the new CAC holder in the PCGS regular Registry sets, then there's no need at all for me to cross.
IF PCGS chooses to allow coins in the new CAC holders in their PCGS regular Registry sets, I would still likely not cross. I would have to determine if there's a practical benefit for me (or my heirs) for me to incur the costs of crossing. To me, having consistency in my holders, or consecutive cert numbers, is NOT a practical benefit to me to incur the expense of crossing!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
Doesn't seem like there'd be any need/reason to cross coins with stickers. In fact, I'd be surprised if stickered coins didn't command a premium once stickering is phased out.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
Not necessary as the collector can always opt for their coins to get stickers by CAC
Not necessarily always, as it sounds like the stickering might be phased out. From CAC:
“It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service.”
Do you think 2033 is supposed to be 2023? An 11 year phase out seems rather long
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
Not necessary as the collector can always opt for their coins to get stickers by CAC
Not necessarily always, as it sounds like the stickering might be phased out. From CAC:
“It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service.”
Do you think 2033 is supposed to be 2023? An 11 year phase out seems rather long
I bet that you can correctly predict my answer.😉 But in case not, this appears in a different paragraph: “CAC stickering will continue through 2023, but our goal is to drastically reduce demand with a new pricing structure”.
Seeing as how this is a PCGS forum, the above will be the end of my quoting comments from CAC in this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
@skier07 said:
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
Not necessary as the collector can always opt for their coins to get stickers by CAC
Not necessarily always, as it sounds like the stickering might be phased out. From CAC:
“It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service.”
Do you think 2033 is supposed to be 2023? An 11 year phase out seems rather long
Glad you said this. In the video interview, I seem to recall he said a year/2023. I really think that 2033 is a typo and it is meant to be 2023.
Does anyone know if they will attribute varieties? Maybe errors also?
CAC stickered my Double Struck $20 Liberty:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
While competition is always a good thing, I think ultimately, the CAC grading service will do just OK. Unless they are able to innovate something new as far as service, turnaround time, holder, or something else, I think they won't take any significant market share. The reason why I believe this is in my and many other collector's minds, the ultimate state of a coin is in a PCGS holder with a CAC sticker (I know, I know... many collectors do not feel this way, but A LOT do). In order to change this mindset, CAC will have to offer some absolutely amazing value proposition.
Back from camping for 3 days and off the grid. My my what I missed in politics, and now we have a CAC grading company coming up with CAC slabs. Well at least it wasn't nuclear war, at least not yet............
So I am still not sure what to make of the new CAC grading company. 85% of my non-modern US coins are in NGC/PCGS slabs with green stickers. When the ones that did not bean come back, I have always asked JA to let me know why and he puts little round stickers with the problem on it, or pointing to an obvious problem he found, like where a spot was removed. So that has given me confidence that for most of the coins I have with a sticker means they the did not have a spot removed, were not lightly cleaned in the past, or any of the other things that CAC thought was wrong with a coin. To me, those coins are not anywhere near as valuable, the ones that did not pass bc of a problem, than those with stickers. And I have confidence that I mostly have strong for the grade coins with them stickers.
So now, if say I have an 1820 bust quarter that was 'lightly cleaned in the past' but in an AU50 slab, will it mean that it can make the grade in a CAC slab at 45? Or will CAC put 'lightly cleaned in the past' on the label and keep it at AU50 implying a C coin? Or? The point is, my confidence is gone with CAC if that coin can make it into a CAC slab. IT HAS A PROBLEM, I don't want to buy problem coins that make the grade in other slabs, that was the whole point of confidence in CAC stickers.
So I want to hear how this rolls out. If that 1820 bust quarter can now be put into a gradeable CAC slab w/o specifying the problem, my confidence in their slabs will be no more than for other grading companies. So what would be the point of that? If however, the goal is to transfer CAC sticker requirements to a slab of theirs, where that 1820 bust quarter cannot have a numeric grade, just as it cannot have a CAC sticker, then okay. But that would mean eliminating 60% of coins sent in for CAC slabbing wouldn't it? So how will this roll out? What really is going to go on here? Is this just a substitute for NGC and PCGS? I want to wait for the specifics. Grading companies want to make money, so there seems to be conflicting issues here......... It might also put the market in a turmoil given potentially conflicting perceptions of what a numeric grade on a CAC slab means. Caveat emptor.
For specifics I would suggest you view his video here in this thread.
My understanding is his new slabs say for MS65 will be for A or B coins. A C coin will have the grade of 64 on his slab (so no stickers on his slabs is my take). In that way the value for CAC coins reflected for CPG for CAC will be consistent. Will be interesting c how it all plays out when we get there.
I don’t see myself deviating from PCGS submission or buying PCGS coins. I am not a spender in the cross or sticker game. All of my US Classic inventory (and what little CAC I had) sold out during pandemic to now. I have shifted to Currency, Mods, and World both graded and raw. I do agree with his comment $200 coins are the bread and butter of the Market and if can buy Classic US at my price plan acquire some of those. I am in the biz and cost / volume / profit potential drives my acquisition decisions.
I will most likely want a coin or two in these new CAC slabs just for the coolness factor, but like a few others have mentioned, I will still prefer PCGS or NGC slabs with the sticker. The more eyes confirming the coin, the better.
@asheland said:
I will most likely want a coin or two in these new CAC slabs just for the coolness factor, but like a few others have mentioned, I will still prefer PCGS or NGC slabs with the sticker. The more eyes confirming the coin, the better.
@Cougar1978 said:
For specifics I would suggest you view his video here in this thread.
My understanding is his new slabs say for MS65 will be for A or B coins. A C coin will have the grade of 64 on his slab. In that way the value for CAC coins reflected for CPG for CAC will be consistent.
@Cougar1978 so we are back to no half grades? What happens to the to the top of the line 64s they become 63s and so on?
I think this A B and C thing is over blown any way
For goodness sakes it seems some people would rather have a PCGS 64 with a green bean than a 65 without.
I wish the guy good luck with his new venture I would have no problem buying a coin in a holder from him he is very good at what he does along with being very well respected.
We have the cows all rounded up at cow camp in NE Oregon and it’s a beautiful day out
Martin
Comments
I hope they allow Anacs on their registry then I’ll have the Indian head cents one almost finished.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
And will CAC create a forum? And will they get questions about the value of coins found in a parking lot? That have been runned over by the op?
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
They’ve had a forum for quite awhile now.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
You didn’t answer my question about road rashed cents.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
There is zero chance of that as several CAC-stickered coins have been dipped (or "gently dipped" as @winesteven likes to say) and JA made it clear that CAC-stickered coins will cross into the new CAC holder.
This was my initial impression as well, but after viewing it again more carefully,
I realized that he was talking specifically about dark toned coins.
See my post from last night, which includes a transcription of what was said:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13353422/#Comment_13353422
John Feigenbaum (the interviewer) agreed too - see his post (JohnF) shortly below mine.
Mark,
JA and his grading team have a higher standard of what constitutes a problem coin (deserving of a details grade) than PC or NGC. If you've ever discussed with JA why a coin didn't sticker, you'll understand what I mean. I invite you to ask JA whether CAC grading company will straight grade coins that make the technical grade but would not have otherwise received a sticker (because it was a C coin).
Regards,
Will be interesting to see what prices the 38 gold sticker Mercury Dimes will bring at GC next week. What do you think will happen?
If you like to keep your coins in one TPG's slab (e.g., for PCGS registry purposes, or for the sake of aesthetics/uniformity or for whatever reason), an additional viable grading service means there will be greater dispersion of coins in various holders in the market and a greater chance that a coin you want to buy is not in your preferred holder. I would expect more crossover fees. I don't see how this benefits collectors.
There is no correlation between a CAC sticker and good eye appeal. Only a correctly graded coin. I would think a CAC graded slab would be based on the same principles used to grade green and gold stickers for PCGS slabs. Problem coins with cleaning pvc and such would get a details grade. A and B coins will be assigned the the correct MS grade for that particular coin. So a MS 65 new slab CAC coin would equal a PCGS MS 65 green sticker coin. It’s as simple as that. People are making it more complicated than it seems.
Interesting idea. I personally don't like the fact they he'll be phasing out the sticker. It's something that the market demands, and collectors have embraced. I can see another stickering company rising up to fill that void.
Collector
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A lot is my guess.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I kinda like the current system where a pcgs slab may or not be stickered by CAC.
By having both services view a particular coin and agree on the grade seems to be a more valuable opinion than just a one service opinion .......at least to me.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I think this correct!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I think 58 gold CAC stickered coins will climb. Those are coins that will jump the most in grade. I don’t believe those are 1 grade under. I bet many jump to 62 or even 63. Have fun searching.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
That is not what a "C" coin is. Do a little research. This is all false.
Many C coins are even C coins one grade down
Latin American Collection
Try reading their website. A C coin does not have to be a problem coin. Do sone research and then retract this before you confuse newbies.
You're too humble. You "think" he's dead wrong? I know he's dead wrong based on CAC's own definitions and JA's numerous interviews.
Did anyone else notice in their email that they would control demand with pricing? That was an eye opener for me.
How so? I’m not surprised they’re operating a business like a business. In fact I had this discussion with a LCS-owner about this on Wednesday and I suggested that CAC raise their prices to increase service levels.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Charge too little, get more submissions than you can handle and everybody whines because the wait is so long.
Charge too much, limit submissions to insure a decent turn-around time and everybody whines because it costs so much.
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
It's possible there's a stronger demand for AU58 gold stickers by owners of Everyman Sets.
Yes, but the news of CAC grading propels this grade.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
So I read that the holders:
Essentially the same size as pcgs holders and will fit in their box
But perhaps the more important question(s)
How easy will they be to crack open?
How scratch resistant will the plastic be and the ease of ability to repair scratches?
How long before a fake CAC slab appears in the market place?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
ICNAM.
Read most all of the comments, watched the interview last night ... got the letter today.
While I think it might be difficult to wade into the pool otherwise, they are, in affect, already swimming, so it's just a matter of moving forward and expanding their lane.
interesting times.
Just thoughts ...
We know consistency matters.
Generally speaking, CAC has been fairly consistent. The TPG's have been a little less so, but still more so than the days before standardized grading spawned the TPG's. Greater consistency and repeatability would be welcome.
I would personally like to see less "details" coins in "straight" holders as it devalues good coins, and inhibits overall pricing. While sometimes that discrepancy is great for the buyer with a keen eye, it creates other issues.
.
We know reputation matters.
I think John and team have this in spades, so they should have a shot, and not have to deal with the "who are these chuckleheads?" issues that an unknown entity would receive. PCGS and NGC survive because of perceived reputation and the value that offers as well.
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We know the current turn-around and pricing to "process" a coin for marketability matters.
In the fast moving world we live in, a well accepted competitor can help a market that has had few real players in recent years by pushing the end-user mandate forward. In the video, John makes solid points about the money required to "process" coins, but the same must be remembered for the time involved. Especially in business, time is money, after all. And the market has moved towards certification for lesser and lesser valued coins, so the combination has to work for the price points available.
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Other than turn-around, which seems to me to be a stifling issue for dealers bringing coins to market, and the overall cost, I think the end-user mandate falls back to consistency of the certification of quality by a service, which makes quality, price discovery and value easier to access. I think secondary requirements are for a well-designed, image and viewing friendly holder; data and image presentations to encourage knowledge, learning, quality and price discovery within the hobby; and showplaces for displaying and comparing coins and sets on-line.
Our host has done a terrific job advancing the marketplace in all of these respects (in my opinion), but they probably need the push towards protecting the quality of the product (somewhat), and also in reducing the turn-around (maybe more than a little).
From what I have seen, NGC could probably use a less subtle push towards a more consistent, and less forgiving offering (again, in my opinion).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Will PCGS or NGC allow CAC slabs into their registry? If not, will CAC start their own registry? If they do, how many collectors with PCGS or NGC registries cross all their coins over to CAC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
CAC has announced they’re starting TWO registries - one registry will accept coins in PCGS, NGC, and CAC holders (with OR without CAC stickers) (and I think I read, but am not positive, ANACS holders as well). The other registry will be for coins in any holder with a CAC sticker, as well as the new CAC holder. Plus grades will have more registry points/value in each of the two registries than non plus grades.
As you can see, there’s no need to cross to get into the CAC registries. I do NOT plan to cross my coins, as I want to also remain in the PCGS Registry. While I have not read of any comment from PCGS, my guess is they will not allow CAC holders in their registry (other than possibly only into the PCGS CAC Composite sets).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I believe that competition, especially quality competition, ultimately benefits the consumer.
There are a lot of broad statements regarding CAC grading and standards.
Remember that each coin is evaluated on it's merits.
Over the years I've observed that CAC grading standards are consistantly the highest in the industry.
I just read through this
My head hurts
Martin
If the CAC grading company becomes a dominant player and their coins sell for a higher premium collectors with large collections will probably be forced to cross everything before they sell which is probably not good for collectors in general. It will be expensive and if done by the collector quite tedious and there’s always the risk of packages getting lost.
My sense is there won't be much price separation between the coins in the new CAC holders and other TPG holders with CAC stickers, especially PCGS holders with CAC stickers. Regardless, as noted above, I don't plan to cross anything over, especially since my PCGS/CAC coins (including their "+" grades) will be eligible for all Registries. Coins in the new CAC holders may POSSIBLY not be eligible for the PCGS regular registry sets.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Not necessary as the collector can always opt for their coins to get stickers by CAC
Not necessarily always, as it sounds like the stickering might be phased out. From CAC:
“It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
People will have a choice but nobody will be forced to cross their coins. If it's financially advantageous, then do it. If not, don't.
Would it make sense for you if you could cross your coins for a New CAC holder plus sticker? Is that more valuable and prestigious than a PCGS plus green sticker
To me, with what I know now, no.
IF PCGS chooses to not allow the new CAC holder in the PCGS regular Registry sets, then there's no need at all for me to cross.
IF PCGS chooses to allow coins in the new CAC holders in their PCGS regular Registry sets, I would still likely not cross. I would have to determine if there's a practical benefit for me (or my heirs) for me to incur the costs of crossing. To me, having consistency in my holders, or consecutive cert numbers, is NOT a practical benefit to me to incur the expense of crossing!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Doesn't seem like there'd be any need/reason to cross coins with stickers. In fact, I'd be surprised if stickered coins didn't command a premium once stickering is phased out.
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My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Do you think 2033 is supposed to be 2023? An 11 year phase out seems rather long
I bet that you can correctly predict my answer.😉 But in case not, this appears in a different paragraph: “CAC stickering will continue through 2023, but our goal is to drastically reduce demand with a new pricing structure”.
Seeing as how this is a PCGS forum, the above will be the end of my quoting comments from CAC in this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Glad you said this. In the video interview, I seem to recall he said a year/2023. I really think that 2033 is a typo and it is meant to be 2023.
Does anyone know if they will attribute varieties? Maybe errors also?
Does anyone know if they will attribute varieties? Maybe errors also?
CAC stickered my Double Struck $20 Liberty:
While competition is always a good thing, I think ultimately, the CAC grading service will do just OK. Unless they are able to innovate something new as far as service, turnaround time, holder, or something else, I think they won't take any significant market share. The reason why I believe this is in my and many other collector's minds, the ultimate state of a coin is in a PCGS holder with a CAC sticker (I know, I know... many collectors do not feel this way, but A LOT do). In order to change this mindset, CAC will have to offer some absolutely amazing value proposition.
Back from camping for 3 days and off the grid. My my what I missed in politics, and now we have a CAC grading company coming up with CAC slabs. Well at least it wasn't nuclear war, at least not yet............
So I am still not sure what to make of the new CAC grading company. 85% of my non-modern US coins are in NGC/PCGS slabs with green stickers. When the ones that did not bean come back, I have always asked JA to let me know why and he puts little round stickers with the problem on it, or pointing to an obvious problem he found, like where a spot was removed. So that has given me confidence that for most of the coins I have with a sticker means they the did not have a spot removed, were not lightly cleaned in the past, or any of the other things that CAC thought was wrong with a coin. To me, those coins are not anywhere near as valuable, the ones that did not pass bc of a problem, than those with stickers. And I have confidence that I mostly have strong for the grade coins with them stickers.
So now, if say I have an 1820 bust quarter that was 'lightly cleaned in the past' but in an AU50 slab, will it mean that it can make the grade in a CAC slab at 45? Or will CAC put 'lightly cleaned in the past' on the label and keep it at AU50 implying a C coin? Or? The point is, my confidence is gone with CAC if that coin can make it into a CAC slab. IT HAS A PROBLEM, I don't want to buy problem coins that make the grade in other slabs, that was the whole point of confidence in CAC stickers.
So I want to hear how this rolls out. If that 1820 bust quarter can now be put into a gradeable CAC slab w/o specifying the problem, my confidence in their slabs will be no more than for other grading companies. So what would be the point of that? If however, the goal is to transfer CAC sticker requirements to a slab of theirs, where that 1820 bust quarter cannot have a numeric grade, just as it cannot have a CAC sticker, then okay. But that would mean eliminating 60% of coins sent in for CAC slabbing wouldn't it? So how will this roll out? What really is going to go on here? Is this just a substitute for NGC and PCGS? I want to wait for the specifics. Grading companies want to make money, so there seems to be conflicting issues here......... It might also put the market in a turmoil given potentially conflicting perceptions of what a numeric grade on a CAC slab means. Caveat emptor.
Best, SH
For specifics I would suggest you view his video here in this thread.
My understanding is his new slabs say for MS65 will be for A or B coins. A C coin will have the grade of 64 on his slab (so no stickers on his slabs is my take). In that way the value for CAC coins reflected for CPG for CAC will be consistent. Will be interesting c how it all plays out when we get there.
I don’t see myself deviating from PCGS submission or buying PCGS coins. I am not a spender in the cross or sticker game. All of my US Classic inventory (and what little CAC I had) sold out during pandemic to now. I have shifted to Currency, Mods, and World both graded and raw. I do agree with his comment $200 coins are the bread and butter of the Market and if can buy Classic US at my price plan acquire some of those. I am in the biz and cost / volume / profit potential drives my acquisition decisions.
I will most likely want a coin or two in these new CAC slabs just for the coolness factor, but like a few others have mentioned, I will still prefer PCGS or NGC slabs with the sticker. The more eyes confirming the coin, the better.
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Interesting thought...
CC
@Cougar1978 so we are back to no half grades? What happens to the to the top of the line 64s they become 63s and so on?
I think this A B and C thing is over blown any way
For goodness sakes it seems some people would rather have a PCGS 64 with a green bean than a 65 without.
I wish the guy good luck with his new venture I would have no problem buying a coin in a holder from him he is very good at what he does along with being very well respected.
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Martin