I understand why they are discussing phasing out their stickering service, you can't exactly sticker your own coins that you graded with a green/gold or reject.
Even with the new grading service, I would prefer they still accept PCGS and NGC coins.
@MasonG said:
Grades are opinions. The more precise you try to make them, the less consistent they will be.
But CAC already divides each grade into A, B, and C coins. Going forward, with CAC agreeing to use plus grades, those three categories would still apply.
Steve
A "+" is not the same as a sticker. A + suggests a slightly higher grade not high end of the current grade. Maybe "PQ" would work. But I'm not sure why they would need to distinguish ABC when neither NGC nor PCGS do so.
But CAC does, and will continue viewing coins as A, B, or C. From my understanding, going forward, coins that CAC deems as “A” coins will now get a “+” grade; “B” coins will mainly get just the whole grade number (but JA has said that some “high end B coins” - don’t laugh, can get a plus grade too). Coins they determine are properly graded problem free “C” coins, will apparently be graded in the next lower grade, but with a plus.
Steve
I really doubt it. CAC, really JA, does not like + grades and currently ignores them when stickering. And CAC only differentiates AB from others, it's a binary system. Why would they create greater complexity?
On the other forum, JA has UNEQUIVOCALLY stated their new grading company will be using plus grades. He further went on to say coins they deem as “A” coins will get their plus grade!!!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@spacehayduke said:
No one has yet to address my post above. What happens to a coin that was deemed 'lightly cleaned in the past', that is in a graded holder from NGC or PCGS, that did not sticker? Does it get into a graded CAC slab with lower grade? This is an issue that breaks down the whole concept of CAC having graded slabs. They either make money by grading a coin that is unsuitable for a sticker, or they lose money. Catch 22. Again this degrades the whole concept of what CAC is now coins that do not allegedly have problems bc of human manipulation. Again, no one here even acknowledged my post. Come on................
JA?????????????? Answer???????????????/
JA has said that such coins garner a details grade.
I have read two post on this from JACAC. One indicating that obviously cleaned coins are a details grade as I noted in prior post. The other was much longer. I am not sure how to interpret all of the potential scenarios (and include the did not sticker before) but in short CAC will grade some white dipped bust halves (used as example) and have sticker such coins as long as the luster is good for one. As the grade goes down (used AU as maybe okay), then becomes more offensive. Also stated that old dips and are/have re-toned are a mix and depend on the specifics of the coin.
@CoinConsign said:
I understand why they are discussing phasing out their stickering service, you can't exactly sticker your own coins that you graded with a green/gold or reject.
Even with the new grading service, I would prefer they still accept PCGS and NGC coins.
The new CAC holders will NOT have CAC stickers!
The new CAC grading service will indeed accept for potential crossover coins graded by PCGS and NGC, whether those have CAC stickers or not.
CAC will be creating two new separate registries - one registry for coins in PCGS, NGC, and/or the new CAC holders. Those holders could have, but don’t have to have CAC stickers. PCGS holders with CAC stickers, NGC holders with CAC stickers and the new CAC holders will get extra registry points. The other registry will accept not only coins in the new CAC holders, but will also accept coins in ANY holder that has a CAC sticker. Coins with plus grades will get extra registry points in each of those two registries.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@MasonG said:
Grades are opinions. The more precise you try to make them, the less consistent they will be.
But CAC already divides each grade into A, B, and C coins. Going forward, with CAC agreeing to use plus grades, those three categories would still apply.
Steve
A "+" is not the same as a sticker. A + suggests a slightly higher grade not high end of the current grade. Maybe "PQ" would work. But I'm not sure why they would need to distinguish ABC when neither NGC nor PCGS do so.
But CAC does, and will continue viewing coins as A, B, or C. From my understanding, going forward, coins that CAC deems as “A” coins will now get a “+” grade; “B” coins will mainly get just the whole grade number (but
I really doubt it. CAC, really JA, does not like + grades and currently ignores them when stickering. And CAC only differentiates AB from others, it's a binary system. Why would they create greater complexity?
On the other forum, JA has UNEQUIVOCALLY stated their new grading company will be using plus grades. He further went on to say coins they deem as “A” coins will get their plus grade!!!
Steve
Actually I had just edited my comment after reading the CAC forum. HORRIBLE idea. They are very using the + differently that either PCGS or the sticker company. HORRIBLR
@MasonG said:
Grades are opinions. The more precise you try to make them, the less consistent they will be.
But CAC already divides each grade into A, B, and C coins. Going forward, with CAC agreeing to use plus grades, those three categories would still apply.
Steve
A "+" is not the same as a sticker. A + suggests a slightly higher grade not high end of the current grade. Maybe "PQ" would work. But I'm not sure why they would need to distinguish ABC when neither NGC nor PCGS do so.
But CAC does, and will continue viewing coins as A, B, or C. From my understanding, going forward, coins that CAC deems as “A” coins will now get a “+” grade; “B” coins will mainly get just the whole grade number (but JA has said that some “high end B coins” - don’t laugh, can get a plus grade too). Coins they determine are properly graded problem free “C” coins, will apparently be graded in the next lower grade, but with a plus.
Steve
I really doubt it. CAC, really JA, does not like + grades and currently ignores them when stickering. And CAC only differentiates AB from others, it's a binary system. Why would they create greater complexity?
On the other forum, JA has UNEQUIVOCALLY stated their new grading company will be using plus grades. He further went on to say coins they deem as “A” coins will get their plus grade!!!
Steve
Actually, I had just edited my comment after reading the CAC forum. This is a horrible idea and adds confusion. CAC stickers ignore the +. Now CAC slabs are using a + that means suffering different from either the sticker or a PCGS/NGC plus. HORRIBLE.
So if you have a PCGS 65+ with no sticker that is actually lower than A PCGS 65 with a sticker. And a CAC+ may be better than the 65 sticker.
It is sounding like a bigger mess to me if CAC stays with the 65C coin being graded as a 64+. In another post JACAC stated that a 64A coin would likely be graded a +. So if these both stick, then the current 64A and the downgraded 65C will likely be a plus grade. Only the 64B will be a 64. This could lead to more + grades than not. Unless they decide to down grade the current 64A to not plus.
@CoinConsign said:
I understand why they are discussing phasing out their stickering service, you can't exactly sticker your own coins that you graded with a green/gold or reject.
Even with the new grading service, I would prefer they still accept PCGS and NGC coins.
The new CAC holders will NOT have CAC stickers!
The new CAC grading service will indeed accept for potential crossover coins graded by PCGS and NGC, whether those have CAC stickers or not.
CAC will be creating two new separate registries - one registry for coins in PCGS, NGC, and/or the new CAC holders. Those holders could have, but don’t have to have CAC stickers. PCGS holders with CAC stickers, NGC holders with CAC stickers and the new CAC holders will get extra registry points. The other registry will accept not only coins in the new CAC holders, but will also accept coins in ANY holder that has a CAC sticker. Coins with plus grades will get extra registry points in each of those two registries.
Steve
It will all be clear in the market in 10 to 15 years.
Many subjective things even now are not clear - just look at the frequent various discussions regarding CAC even BEFORE this recent CAC grading announcement.
With that said, I believe just as “the market” has already determined that coins with CAC stickers do have higher value, “the market” will make determinations well before 10 to 15 years one way or another about how the new CAC holders will fare. Collectors will still disagree with each other as they do now, and some collectors will absolutely not accept the new holders, but “the market” will still make a decision (until “the market” changes its mind, lol).
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@CoinConsign said:
I understand why they are discussing phasing out their stickering service, you can't exactly sticker your own coins that you graded with a green/gold or reject.
They should reject all their own stickered coins as a way of establishing integrity cred.
@winesteven Thanks for the info.
95% of my collection is old holders. I usually send 20-40 every other month to CAC (before the regular tier suspension). I am not interested in registries, crack outs or crossovers. So for my own personal situation, I would hate to see the stickering service go.
@CoinConsign said: @winesteven Thanks for the info.
95% of my collection is old holders. I usually send 20-40 every other month to CAC (before the regular tier suspension). I am not interested in registries, crack outs or crossovers. So for my own personal situation, I would hate to see the stickering service go.
Right there with you, Torey. I think those of us who collect old holders should probably plead our case to JA.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Skipping to the sixth page after that first one geez!
First of all I think some are putting way too much emphasis on the grading game, 64 this 65 that, what happens now, what about me, etc. I thought grades were subjective and subjected to change anyway.
Secondly I suspect a larger number of collectors sung the praises of CAC than not. Plus, CAC only approved a small percentage of PCGS coins in the first place.
Now, factor in all of the business positives, a huge market full of overflow, a huge existing customer base, and uh, oh yea! I just happen to be an expert in the field.
I’m excited for them, the hobby, and my next order.
If one does not exist already, perhaps an index/explanation of all these different 3-5 letter entities would be of benefit to new collectors/YN's. To help allay any confusion in these ongoing changes and to better understand the lay of the land.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@ironmanl63 said:
One benefit I see is crossing NGC stickered coins. The market rates them differently but CAC does not. The new CAC holder will solve that problem!
How do you know that will solve the “problem”? If the market prefers PCGS/CAC stickered coins to NGC/CAC ones, I wouldn’t take it as a given that the market will value CAC holdered coins the same as PCGS ones.
@ironmanl63 said:
One benefit I see is crossing NGC stickered coins. The market rates them differently but CAC does not. The new CAC holder will solve that problem!
How do you know that will solve the “problem”? If the market prefers PCGS/CAC stickered coins to NGC/CAC ones, I wouldn’t take it as a given that the market will value CAC holdered coins the same as PCGS ones.
I think in theory Mark a CAC MS 65 coin price should equal a PCGS 65 green sticker price But who knows, the market place will decide.
@Coinscratch said:
Skipping to the sixth page after that first one geez!
First of all I think some are putting way too much emphasis on the grading game, 64 this 65 that, what happens now, what about me, etc. I thought grades were subjective and subjected to change anyway.
Secondly I suspect a larger number of collectors sung the praises of CAC than not. Plus, CAC only approved a small percentage of PCGS coins in the first place.
Now, factor in all of the business positives, a huge market full of overflow, a huge existing customer base, and uh, oh yea! I just happen to be an expert in the field.
I’m excited for them, the hobby, and my next order.
Idk. A third or half is not a small percentage to my mind.
@Twobitcollector said:
I hope they use the old style holders with the gold embossing.
Also the embossing should be aliened with the coin not upside down.
But how does the new service implement those standards, while continuing to distinguish problem-free, but low end coins from the ones that would currently sticker?
Does it have to? After all "C" coins are properly graded but at the low end of the grade scale. Coins that fail to sticker due to other issues (overgraded, problems) would be graded accordingly. There is no reason why the new CAC slab needs to distinguish between A/B/C coins.
I believe there definitely has to be something that distinguishes the difference between a C coin from others. If not, coins with stickers will be looked at as better then his slabbed coins. Stickered coins have the track record that prove they are A and B coins. If new CAC slabs are holding A,B and C coins with no difference CACs mission of helping collectors decipher them is non existent.
But if a coin is a C coin in a 65 PCGS holder (and problem free), what’s wrong if CAC puts it in their new holder graded 64+? In CAC’s opinion, they would likely be very comfortable with that coin in a 64+ holder, regardless of the TPG.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
But if a coin is a C coin in a 65 PCGS holder (and problem free), what’s wrong if CAC puts it in their new holder graded 64+? In CAC’s opinion, they would likely be very comfortable with that coin in a 64+ holder, regardless of the TPG.
Steve
I don’t believe all C coins that get down graded to the next lower grade automatically are worthy of becoming an A at the next level.
@Coinscratch said:
Skipping to the sixth page after that first one geez!
First of all I think some are putting way too much emphasis on the grading game, 64 this 65 that, what happens now, what about me, etc. I thought grades were subjective and subjected to change anyway.
Secondly I suspect a larger number of collectors sung the praises of CAC than not. Plus, CAC only approved a small percentage of PCGS coins in the first place.
Now, factor in all of the business positives, a huge market full of overflow, a huge existing customer base, and uh, oh yea! I just happen to be an expert in the field.
I’m excited for them, the hobby, and my next order.
Idk. A third or half is not a small percentage to my mind.
Is it that large? And even so, what about that large elephant in the room called moderns? Assuming they'll grade even my Zincolns. At some point they won't be so modern.
@winesteven said:
But if a coin is a C coin in a 65 PCGS holder (and problem free), what’s wrong if CAC puts it in their new holder graded 64+? In CAC’s opinion, they would likely be very comfortable with that coin in a 64+ holder, regardless of the TPG.
Steve
I don’t believe all C coins that get down graded to the next lower grade automatically are worthy of becoming an A at the next level.
You might possibly be right, but it sounds like that's what JA said they'll be doing. as long as the coin is problem free and was "properly graded" as a 65 (but lower end). MY guess is that if a coin was truly overgraded as a 65, then i agree with you that if it's problem free otherwise, CAC will indeed holder it, but then maybe at a 64, not a 64+.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
CAC Grading company will not put C coins in a straight graded holder. I.e., they will not down downgrade a C coin (say light cleaning) with a technical grade of AU 50 into an EF 45 holder (commonly referred to as net grading). The coin will be put into a details holder.
@spacehayduke said:
Back from camping for 3 days and off the grid. My my what I missed in politics, and now we have a CAC grading company coming up with CAC slabs. Well at least it wasn't nuclear war, at least not yet............
So I am still not sure what to make of the new CAC grading company. 85% of my non-modern US coins are in NGC/PCGS slabs with green stickers. When the ones that did not bean come back, I have always asked JA to let me know why and he puts little round stickers with the problem on it, or pointing to an obvious problem he found, like where a spot was removed. So that has given me confidence that for most of the coins I have with a sticker means they the did not have a spot removed, were not lightly cleaned in the past, or any of the other things that CAC thought was wrong with a coin. To me, those coins are not anywhere near as valuable, the ones that did not pass bc of a problem, than those with stickers. And I have confidence that I mostly have strong for the grade coins with them stickers.
So now, if say I have an 1820 bust quarter that was 'lightly cleaned in the past' but in an AU50 slab, will it mean that it can make the grade in a CAC slab at 45? Or will CAC put 'lightly cleaned in the past' on the label and keep it at AU50 implying a C coin? Or? The point is, my confidence is gone with CAC if that coin can make it into a CAC slab. IT HAS A PROBLEM, I don't want to buy problem coins that make the grade in other slabs, that was the whole point of confidence in CAC stickers.
So I want to hear how this rolls out. If that 1820 bust quarter can now be put into a gradeable CAC slab w/o specifying the problem, my confidence in their slabs will be no more than for other grading companies. So what would be the point of that? If however, the goal is to transfer CAC sticker requirements to a slab of theirs, where that 1820 bust quarter cannot have a numeric grade, just as it cannot have a CAC sticker, then okay. But that would mean eliminating 60% of coins sent in for CAC slabbing wouldn't it? So how will this roll out? What really is going to go on here? Is this just a substitute for NGC and PCGS? I want to wait for the specifics. Grading companies want to make money, so there seems to be conflicting issues here......... It might also put the market in a turmoil given potentially conflicting perceptions of what a numeric grade on a CAC slab means. Caveat emptor.
But how does the new service implement those standards, while continuing to distinguish problem-free, but low end coins from the ones that would currently sticker?
Does it have to? After all "C" coins are properly graded but at the low end of the grade scale. Coins that fail to sticker due to other issues (overgraded, problems) would be graded accordingly. There is no reason why the new CAC slab needs to distinguish between A/B/C coins.
I believe there definitely has to be something that distinguishes the difference between a C coin from others. If not, coins with stickers will be looked at as better then his slabbed coins. Stickered coins have the track record that prove they are A and B coins. If new CAC slabs are holding A,B and C coins with no difference CACs mission of helping collectors decipher them is non existent.
I think that is an excellent point...but that is no longer their mission with the grading service!
The Grading mission is to accurately and consistently grade & holder coins with an eye towards slightly more stringent standards and a focus on not not straight grading problem coins.
The Stickering mission is to judge whether another TPG has done that.
That's a big difference. These are clearly great coin people with a wealth of knowledge and great POV...but, despite what they say, it's always easier to critique the work of others than to do fresh, original work of your own. If anyone can do it, JA can! But it's a different goal.
EDIT - and I think you are right, that stickered coins and CAC-holdered coins will be and should be looked at differently. Stickered coins have the review of two teams, CAC-holdered coins will only have the review of one team.
@beboplawyer said:
CAC Grading company will not put C coins in a straight graded holder. I.e., they will not down downgrade a C coin (say light cleaning) with a technical grade of AU 50 into an EF 45 holder (commonly referred to as net grading). The coin will be put into a details holder.
@spacehayduke said:
Back from camping for 3 days and off the grid. My my what I missed in politics, and now we have a CAC grading company coming up with CAC slabs. Well at least it wasn't nuclear war, at least not yet............
So I am still not sure what to make of the new CAC grading company. 85% of my non-modern US coins are in NGC/PCGS slabs with green stickers. When the ones that did not bean come back, I have always asked JA to let me know why and he puts little round stickers with the problem on it, or pointing to an obvious problem he found, like where a spot was removed. So that has given me confidence that for most of the coins I have with a sticker means they the did not have a spot removed, were not lightly cleaned in the past, or any of the other things that CAC thought was wrong with a coin. To me, those coins are not anywhere near as valuable, the ones that did not pass bc of a problem, than those with stickers. And I have confidence that I mostly have strong for the grade coins with them stickers.
So now, if say I have an 1820 bust quarter that was 'lightly cleaned in the past' but in an AU50 slab, will it mean that it can make the grade in a CAC slab at 45? Or will CAC put 'lightly cleaned in the past' on the label and keep it at AU50 implying a C coin? Or? The point is, my confidence is gone with CAC if that coin can make it into a CAC slab. IT HAS A PROBLEM, I don't want to buy problem coins that make the grade in other slabs, that was the whole point of confidence in CAC stickers.
So I want to hear how this rolls out. If that 1820 bust quarter can now be put into a gradeable CAC slab w/o specifying the problem, my confidence in their slabs will be no more than for other grading companies. So what would be the point of that? If however, the goal is to transfer CAC sticker requirements to a slab of theirs, where that 1820 bust quarter cannot have a numeric grade, just as it cannot have a CAC sticker, then okay. But that would mean eliminating 60% of coins sent in for CAC slabbing wouldn't it? So how will this roll out? What really is going to go on here? Is this just a substitute for NGC and PCGS? I want to wait for the specifics. Grading companies want to make money, so there seems to be conflicting issues here......... It might also put the market in a turmoil given potentially conflicting perceptions of what a numeric grade on a CAC slab means. Caveat emptor.
Best, SH
You are incorrect about that. CAC Grading co. has stated on their site that they will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders. Please stop misstating facts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But how does the new service implement those standards, while continuing to distinguish problem-free, but low end coins from the ones that would currently sticker?
I had thrown out my 'silly' idea above with the green bean label and no green bean label. I see that a minus was suggested by you on cac forum. Sounds good. I am guess some wouldn't like their cac slab without a green bean if all others had one. In general I like the idea of an identifier for the no problem 'C' coins.
But how does the new service implement those standards, while continuing to distinguish problem-free, but low end coins from the ones that would currently sticker?
Does it have to? After all "C" coins are properly graded but at the low end of the grade scale. Coins that fail to sticker due to other issues (overgraded, problems) would be graded accordingly. There is no reason why the new CAC slab needs to distinguish between A/B/C coins.
I believe there definitely has to be something that distinguishes the difference between a C coin from others. If not, coins with stickers will be looked at as better then his slabbed coins. Stickered coins have the track record that prove they are A and B coins. If new CAC slabs are holding A,B and C coins with no difference CACs mission of helping collectors decipher them is non existent.
But how does the new service implement those standards, while continuing to distinguish problem-free, but low end coins from the ones that would currently sticker?
I had thrown out my 'silly' idea above with the green bean label and no green bean label. I see that a minus was suggested by you on cac forum. Sounds good. I am guess some wouldn't like their cac slab without a green bean if all others had one. In general I like the idea of an identifier for the no problem 'C' coins.
But how does the new service implement those standards, while continuing to distinguish problem-free, but low end coins from the ones that would currently sticker?
Does it have to? After all "C" coins are properly graded but at the low end of the grade scale. Coins that fail to sticker due to other issues (overgraded, problems) would be graded accordingly. There is no reason why the new CAC slab needs to distinguish between A/B/C coins.
I believe there definitely has to be something that distinguishes the difference between a C coin from others. If not, coins with stickers will be looked at as better then his slabbed coins. Stickered coins have the track record that prove they are A and B coins. If new CAC slabs are holding A,B and C coins with no difference CACs mission of helping collectors decipher them is non existent.
That's at least three times now that you've misstated facts. CAC Grading co. has stated on their site that they will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In JA eyes, a coin that is lightly cleaned and would holder a PCGS but would not receive a sticker a CAC sticking company (a C coin) would not be put into a CAC holder at any grade. Such a coin is not "problem free".
A coin that is in a PCGS holder grading AU 50 which doesn't receive a sticker at CAC sticking company because JA thinks it is an EF 45 (a C coin as an AU 50) would holder at CAC Grading company as an EF 45.
Bottom line, CAC Grading Service will not net grade coins with problems like the other grading companies might do.
@beboplawyer said:
CAC Grading company will not put C coins in a straight graded holder. I.e., they will not down downgrade a C coin (say light cleaning) with a technical grade of AU 50 into an EF 45 holder (commonly referred to as net grading). The coin will be put into a details holder.
@spacehayduke said:
Back from camping for 3 days and off the grid. My my what I missed in politics, and now we have a CAC grading company coming up with CAC slabs. Well at least it wasn't nuclear war, at least not yet............
So I am still not sure what to make of the new CAC grading company. 85% of my non-modern US coins are in NGC/PCGS slabs with green stickers. When the ones that did not bean come back, I have always asked JA to let me know why and he puts little round stickers with the problem on it, or pointing to an obvious problem he found, like where a spot was removed. So that has given me confidence that for most of the coins I have with a sticker means they the did not have a spot removed, were not lightly cleaned in the past, or any of the other things that CAC thought was wrong with a coin. To me, those coins are not anywhere near as valuable, the ones that did not pass bc of a problem, than those with stickers. And I have confidence that I mostly have strong for the grade coins with them stickers.
So now, if say I have an 1820 bust quarter that was 'lightly cleaned in the past' but in an AU50 slab, will it mean that it can make the grade in a CAC slab at 45? Or will CAC put 'lightly cleaned in the past' on the label and keep it at AU50 implying a C coin? Or? The point is, my confidence is gone with CAC if that coin can make it into a CAC slab. IT HAS A PROBLEM, I don't want to buy problem coins that make the grade in other slabs, that was the whole point of confidence in CAC stickers.
So I want to hear how this rolls out. If that 1820 bust quarter can now be put into a gradeable CAC slab w/o specifying the problem, my confidence in their slabs will be no more than for other grading companies. So what would be the point of that? If however, the goal is to transfer CAC sticker requirements to a slab of theirs, where that 1820 bust quarter cannot have a numeric grade, just as it cannot have a CAC sticker, then okay. But that would mean eliminating 60% of coins sent in for CAC slabbing wouldn't it? So how will this roll out? What really is going to go on here? Is this just a substitute for NGC and PCGS? I want to wait for the specifics. Grading companies want to make money, so there seems to be conflicting issues here......... It might also put the market in a turmoil given potentially conflicting perceptions of what a numeric grade on a CAC slab means. Caveat emptor.
Best, SH
You are incorrect about that. CAC Grading co. has stated on their site that they will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders. Please stop misstating facts.
@Catbert said:
I think these issues should have been anticipated prior to the service announcement whereby a Q&A would have followed.
There are FAQs on the CAC forum
Duh. I know this. Yet questions and confusion remain and my point was that much of this could have been avoided by game planning this in advance of the announcement.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@beboplawyer said:
In JA eyes, a coin that is lightly cleaned and would holder a PCGS but would not receive a sticker a CAC sticking company (a C coin) would not be put into a CAC holder at any grade. Such a coin is not "problem free".
A coin that is in a PCGS holder grading AU 50 which doesn't receive a sticker at CAC sticking company because JA thinks it is an EF 45 (a C coin as an AU 50) would holder at CAC Grading company as an EF 45.
Bottom line, CAC Grading Service will not net grade coins with problems like the other grading companies might do.
@beboplawyer said:
CAC Grading company will not put C coins in a straight graded holder. I.e., they will not down downgrade a C coin (say light cleaning) with a technical grade of AU 50 into an EF 45 holder (commonly referred to as net grading). The coin will be put into a details holder.
@spacehayduke said:
Back from camping for 3 days and off the grid. My my what I missed in politics, and now we have a CAC grading company coming up with CAC slabs. Well at least it wasn't nuclear war, at least not yet............
So I am still not sure what to make of the new CAC grading company. 85% of my non-modern US coins are in NGC/PCGS slabs with green stickers. When the ones that did not bean come back, I have always asked JA to let me know why and he puts little round stickers with the problem on it, or pointing to an obvious problem he found, like where a spot was removed. So that has given me confidence that for most of the coins I have with a sticker means they the did not have a spot removed, were not lightly cleaned in the past, or any of the other things that CAC thought was wrong with a coin. To me, those coins are not anywhere near as valuable, the ones that did not pass bc of a problem, than those with stickers. And I have confidence that I mostly have strong for the grade coins with them stickers.
So now, if say I have an 1820 bust quarter that was 'lightly cleaned in the past' but in an AU50 slab, will it mean that it can make the grade in a CAC slab at 45? Or will CAC put 'lightly cleaned in the past' on the label and keep it at AU50 implying a C coin? Or? The point is, my confidence is gone with CAC if that coin can make it into a CAC slab. IT HAS A PROBLEM, I don't want to buy problem coins that make the grade in other slabs, that was the whole point of confidence in CAC stickers.
So I want to hear how this rolls out. If that 1820 bust quarter can now be put into a gradeable CAC slab w/o specifying the problem, my confidence in their slabs will be no more than for other grading companies. So what would be the point of that? If however, the goal is to transfer CAC sticker requirements to a slab of theirs, where that 1820 bust quarter cannot have a numeric grade, just as it cannot have a CAC sticker, then okay. But that would mean eliminating 60% of coins sent in for CAC slabbing wouldn't it? So how will this roll out? What really is going to go on here? Is this just a substitute for NGC and PCGS? I want to wait for the specifics. Grading companies want to make money, so there seems to be conflicting issues here......... It might also put the market in a turmoil given potentially conflicting perceptions of what a numeric grade on a CAC slab means. Caveat emptor.
Best, SH
You are incorrect about that. CAC Grading co. has stated on their site that they will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders. Please stop misstating facts.
You're mixing up two separate issues - coins that do not sticker because of problems, and coins that are problem-free, but don't sticker because they are low end for the grade, otherwise known as "C" coins. As Mark has correctly said more than once, JA has said that "C" coins WILL indeed be slabbed by CAC in their new holders, but at a grade for which they feel the coin is solid. This will often be one grade lower, often with a "+".
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
CAC put a gold bean on a 63dmpl that's been wiped. First time through it green beaned, which surprised me, and then second time through for reconsideration, it gold beaned. I'd know, I owned it and sold it to my friend who got the gold on recon.
We'll see their approach to coins with minor issues when it happens. It's all speculation between then and now.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@winesteven said:
But if a coin is a C coin in a 65 PCGS holder (and problem free), what’s wrong if CAC puts it in their new holder graded 64+? In CAC’s opinion, they would likely be very comfortable with that coin in a 64+ holder, regardless of the TPG.
Steve
This should only be the case if hypothetically the coin was first in a 64 holder and had a sticker and was upgraded to a 65 and didn’t sticker. I’m not sure how well this will work moving backwards.
JA has said that "C" coins WILL indeed be slabbed by CAC in their new holders, but at a grade for which they feel the coin is solid. This will often be one grade lower, often with a "+".
Ok. So you've got 9 coins that grade MS65, three are As, three are Bs and three are Cs. The Cs get demoted to MS64+, while the MS66 Cs above get demoted to MS65+. Now, for MS65, you've got three coins that used to be MS66, three MS65 As and three MS65 Bs. The Bs are now low end for the grade, not solid as before.
All the coins in any particular grade cannot be "solid for the grade". There will always be those at the low end, just before the cutoff to the next lower grade.
CAC has stated on their website that coins are A B C within a grade. They sticker A and B. The C coins do not get a sticker but are accurately graded as per CAC website.
CAC has stated the the standard between the two companies (CAC sticker and CAC grading) is the same. This from JACAC post.
So for those coins that are no problem and accurately graded C coins as per CAC standards and stated by CAC, then CAC must determine what to do with them.
It appears CAC grading has chosen or is going to choose to not accurately grade or perhaps better said to label these coins as a plus grade one grade lower. This specifically applies to coins that are as stated on the CAC website as accurately graded C coins.
I see JACAC just stated that many 65 non cac saints are in line with the 64 CAC saints. Okay but were / are these accurately graded C coins per CAC website or where they not accurately grade C coins?
CAC has stated they will include details graded coins in CAC slabs. So it is clear that CAC slabs will have coins that are not CAC sticker quality - at least the details graded.
So I would ask why not have accurately graded C coins per CAC website and CAC standards in CAC slabs and identified as such? That is what they are. Calling them or labeling them as a lower grade plus coin when you have graded them a higher grade C coin appears misleading. These C coins would not dilute the CAC population if they were identified as not meeting the CAC grading criteria (similar to the green bean sticker). They will dilute the population of the plus graded coins (as is a 64B = 64 and 64A & 65C = 64+)
Perhaps it would be better if CAC grading would state that their standards are not universally the same.
Note: This will not affect me much since I don't have any plans to jump into the CAC grading scene. This is just an opinion / view point.
JA has said that "C" coins WILL indeed be slabbed by CAC in their new holders, but at a grade for which they feel the coin is solid. This will often be one grade lower, often with a "+".
Ok. So you've got 9 coins that grade MS65, three are As, three are Bs and three are Cs. The Cs get demoted to MS64+, while the MS66 Cs above get demoted to MS65+. Now, for MS65, you've got three coins that used to be MS66, three MS65 As and three MS65 Bs. The Bs are now low end for the grade, not solid as before.
All the coins in any particular grade cannot be "solid for the grade". There will always be those at the low end, just before the cutoff to the next lower grade.
Actually, they CAN all be solid for the grade, which is different than all being "Average" for the grade!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
Actually, they CAN all be solid for the grade, which is different than all being "Average" for the grade!
No, they can't. There are always going to be coins that are just good enough to make the cut. That's not "solid", that's "just barely made it". You can adjust the cutoff between grades to wherever you want it to be but all that does is change which coins are at the bottom.
"The Grading mission is to accurately and consistently grade & holder coins with an eye towards slightly more stringent standards and a focus on not not straight grading problem coins."
I strongly disagree with the words "with an eye towards slightly more stringent standards" My experience has been, with much more stringent standards.
I agree that "CAC Grading Service will not net grade coins with problems like the other grading companies might do."
I also agree that "CAC Grading Service will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders, but at a grade for which they feel the coin is solid."
Seems like nothing more than miscommunication as winesteven suggested.
Remember, JA said "Keep in mind, we have to be diplomatic and state that if a coin doesn’t sticker it doesn’t mean it’s over-graded, it just doesn’t meet out standard. There’s no right and wrong here, every grading service has a different standard."
One thing I hope they do (and wish the grading companies would too) is if that a coin ends up with a details grade, enclose a one or two sentence explanation of what and where on the coin the issue was found. Yes, sometimes it's painfully obvious if it's an abrasive cleaning but if it's something much smaller like a hidden tooling or mark, point it out to the submitter so they (and us) could get an education.
@winesteven said:
Actually, they CAN all be solid for the grade, which is different than all being "Average" for the grade!
No, they can't. There are always going to be coins that are just good enough to make the cut. That's not "solid", that's "just barely made it". You can adjust the cutoff between grades to wherever you want it to be but all that does is change which coins are at the bottom.
Perhaps we're splitting hairs. Can we agree in your scenario that the coins that remain in that grade meet the CAC standards for being solid for the grade, since the "C" coins (those that did not meet their standards for being solid for the grade) are no longer there?
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
Actually, they CAN all be solid for the grade, which is different than all being "Average" for the grade!
No, they can't. There are always going to be coins that are just good enough to make the cut. That's not "solid", that's "just barely made it". You can adjust the cutoff between grades to wherever you want it to be but all that does is change which coins are at the bottom.
What you're saying is coins that CAC previously green stickered as "solid for the grade B coins" are now low end for grade at CAC Grading company. That's splitting hairs and likely not what the new CAC Grading company has in mind.
Comments
I feel bad for all of the population reports.
Matt Snebold
I understand why they are discussing phasing out their stickering service, you can't exactly sticker your own coins that you graded with a green/gold or reject.
Even with the new grading service, I would prefer they still accept PCGS and NGC coins.
Successful BST transactions- Bfjohnson, Collectorcoins, 1peter223, Shrub68, Byers, Greencopper, Coinlieutenant
On the other forum, JA has UNEQUIVOCALLY stated their new grading company will be using plus grades. He further went on to say coins they deem as “A” coins will get their plus grade!!!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
What we need is a - to go along with the +. Solves the ABC designation.
It won’t happen because people would cry if their coin came back with a minus.
I have read two post on this from JACAC. One indicating that obviously cleaned coins are a details grade as I noted in prior post. The other was much longer. I am not sure how to interpret all of the potential scenarios (and include the did not sticker before) but in short CAC will grade some white dipped bust halves (used as example) and have sticker such coins as long as the luster is good for one. As the grade goes down (used AU as maybe okay), then becomes more offensive. Also stated that old dips and are/have re-toned are a mix and depend on the specifics of the coin.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Just sayin'. Again.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Actually I had just edited my comment after reading the CAC forum. HORRIBLE idea. They are very using the + differently that either PCGS or the sticker company. HORRIBLR
It is sounding like a bigger mess to me if CAC stays with the 65C coin being graded as a 64+. In another post JACAC stated that a 64A coin would likely be graded a +. So if these both stick, then the current 64A and the downgraded 65C will likely be a plus grade. Only the 64B will be a 64. This could lead to more + grades than not. Unless they decide to down grade the current 64A to not plus.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
It will all be clear in the market in 10 to 15 years.
Many subjective things even now are not clear - just look at the frequent various discussions regarding CAC even BEFORE this recent CAC grading announcement.
With that said, I believe just as “the market” has already determined that coins with CAC stickers do have higher value, “the market” will make determinations well before 10 to 15 years one way or another about how the new CAC holders will fare. Collectors will still disagree with each other as they do now, and some collectors will absolutely not accept the new holders, but “the market” will still make a decision (until “the market” changes its mind, lol).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
They should reject all their own stickered coins as a way of establishing integrity cred.
@winesteven Thanks for the info.
95% of my collection is old holders. I usually send 20-40 every other month to CAC (before the regular tier suspension). I am not interested in registries, crack outs or crossovers. So for my own personal situation, I would hate to see the stickering service go.
Successful BST transactions- Bfjohnson, Collectorcoins, 1peter223, Shrub68, Byers, Greencopper, Coinlieutenant
Right there with you, Torey. I think those of us who collect old holders should probably plead our case to JA.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Skipping to the sixth page after that first one geez!
First of all I think some are putting way too much emphasis on the grading game, 64 this 65 that, what happens now, what about me, etc. I thought grades were subjective and subjected to change anyway.
Secondly I suspect a larger number of collectors sung the praises of CAC than not. Plus, CAC only approved a small percentage of PCGS coins in the first place.
Now, factor in all of the business positives, a huge market full of overflow, a huge existing customer base, and uh, oh yea! I just happen to be an expert in the field.
I’m excited for them, the hobby, and my next order.
If one does not exist already, perhaps an index/explanation of all these different 3-5 letter entities would be of benefit to new collectors/YN's. To help allay any confusion in these ongoing changes and to better understand the lay of the land.
I think in theory Mark a CAC MS 65 coin price should equal a PCGS 65 green sticker price But who knows, the market place will decide.
I hope they use the old style holders with the gold embossing.
Also the embossing should be aliened with the coin not upside down.
INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN, MWallace, ms71, lordmarcovan
INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN, MWallace, ms71, lordmarcovan
Idk. A third or half is not a small percentage to my mind.
Please be PCGS older style holders
format.
I believe there definitely has to be something that distinguishes the difference between a C coin from others. If not, coins with stickers will be looked at as better then his slabbed coins. Stickered coins have the track record that prove they are A and B coins. If new CAC slabs are holding A,B and C coins with no difference CACs mission of helping collectors decipher them is non existent.
But if a coin is a C coin in a 65 PCGS holder (and problem free), what’s wrong if CAC puts it in their new holder graded 64+? In CAC’s opinion, they would likely be very comfortable with that coin in a 64+ holder, regardless of the TPG.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I don’t believe all C coins that get down graded to the next lower grade automatically are worthy of becoming an A at the next level.
Is it that large? And even so, what about that large elephant in the room called moderns? Assuming they'll grade even my Zincolns. At some point they won't be so modern.
You might possibly be right, but it sounds like that's what JA said they'll be doing. as long as the coin is problem free and was "properly graded" as a 65 (but lower end). MY guess is that if a coin was truly overgraded as a 65, then i agree with you that if it's problem free otherwise, CAC will indeed holder it, but then maybe at a 64, not a 64+.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I think these issues should have been anticipated prior to the service announcement whereby a Q&A would have followed.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
There are FAQs on the CAC forum
What will be the market value valuation source for CAC slabbed coins? The CAC CPG value in CDN?
CAC Grading company will not put C coins in a straight graded holder. I.e., they will not down downgrade a C coin (say light cleaning) with a technical grade of AU 50 into an EF 45 holder (commonly referred to as net grading). The coin will be put into a details holder.
I think that is an excellent point...but that is no longer their mission with the grading service!
The Grading mission is to accurately and consistently grade & holder coins with an eye towards slightly more stringent standards and a focus on not not straight grading problem coins.
The Stickering mission is to judge whether another TPG has done that.
That's a big difference. These are clearly great coin people with a wealth of knowledge and great POV...but, despite what they say, it's always easier to critique the work of others than to do fresh, original work of your own. If anyone can do it, JA can! But it's a different goal.
EDIT - and I think you are right, that stickered coins and CAC-holdered coins will be and should be looked at differently. Stickered coins have the review of two teams, CAC-holdered coins will only have the review of one team.
You are incorrect about that. CAC Grading co. has stated on their site that they will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders. Please stop misstating facts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't know. The news almost makes me want to cancel my subscription to coin world. Blasé by now.
CAC Grading company will not holder "C" coins. They will receive details grades.
That's at least three times now that you've misstated facts. CAC Grading co. has stated on their site that they will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In JA eyes, a coin that is lightly cleaned and would holder a PCGS but would not receive a sticker a CAC sticking company (a C coin) would not be put into a CAC holder at any grade. Such a coin is not "problem free".
A coin that is in a PCGS holder grading AU 50 which doesn't receive a sticker at CAC sticking company because JA thinks it is an EF 45 (a C coin as an AU 50) would holder at CAC Grading company as an EF 45.
Bottom line, CAC Grading Service will not net grade coins with problems like the other grading companies might do.
Duh. I know this. Yet questions and confusion remain and my point was that much of this could have been avoided by game planning this in advance of the announcement.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
You're mixing up two separate issues - coins that do not sticker because of problems, and coins that are problem-free, but don't sticker because they are low end for the grade, otherwise known as "C" coins. As Mark has correctly said more than once, JA has said that "C" coins WILL indeed be slabbed by CAC in their new holders, but at a grade for which they feel the coin is solid. This will often be one grade lower, often with a "+".
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
CAC put a gold bean on a 63dmpl that's been wiped. First time through it green beaned, which surprised me, and then second time through for reconsideration, it gold beaned. I'd know, I owned it and sold it to my friend who got the gold on recon.
We'll see their approach to coins with minor issues when it happens. It's all speculation between then and now.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
This should only be the case if hypothetically the coin was first in a 64 holder and had a sticker and was upgraded to a 65 and didn’t sticker. I’m not sure how well this will work moving backwards.
Ok. So you've got 9 coins that grade MS65, three are As, three are Bs and three are Cs. The Cs get demoted to MS64+, while the MS66 Cs above get demoted to MS65+. Now, for MS65, you've got three coins that used to be MS66, three MS65 As and three MS65 Bs. The Bs are now low end for the grade, not solid as before.
All the coins in any particular grade cannot be "solid for the grade". There will always be those at the low end, just before the cutoff to the next lower grade.
CAC has stated on their website that coins are A B C within a grade. They sticker A and B. The C coins do not get a sticker but are accurately graded as per CAC website.
https://www.caccoin.com/faq/
CAC has stated the the standard between the two companies (CAC sticker and CAC grading) is the same. This from JACAC post.
So for those coins that are no problem and accurately graded C coins as per CAC standards and stated by CAC, then CAC must determine what to do with them.
It appears CAC grading has chosen or is going to choose to not accurately grade or perhaps better said to label these coins as a plus grade one grade lower. This specifically applies to coins that are as stated on the CAC website as accurately graded C coins.
I see JACAC just stated that many 65 non cac saints are in line with the 64 CAC saints. Okay but were / are these accurately graded C coins per CAC website or where they not accurately grade C coins?
CAC has stated they will include details graded coins in CAC slabs. So it is clear that CAC slabs will have coins that are not CAC sticker quality - at least the details graded.
So I would ask why not have accurately graded C coins per CAC website and CAC standards in CAC slabs and identified as such? That is what they are. Calling them or labeling them as a lower grade plus coin when you have graded them a higher grade C coin appears misleading. These C coins would not dilute the CAC population if they were identified as not meeting the CAC grading criteria (similar to the green bean sticker). They will dilute the population of the plus graded coins (as is a 64B = 64 and 64A & 65C = 64+)
Perhaps it would be better if CAC grading would state that their standards are not universally the same.
Note: This will not affect me much since I don't have any plans to jump into the CAC grading scene. This is just an opinion / view point.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Actually, they CAN all be solid for the grade, which is different than all being "Average" for the grade!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
No, they can't. There are always going to be coins that are just good enough to make the cut. That's not "solid", that's "just barely made it". You can adjust the cutoff between grades to wherever you want it to be but all that does is change which coins are at the bottom.
"The Grading mission is to accurately and consistently grade & holder coins with an eye towards slightly more stringent standards and a focus on not not straight grading problem coins."
I strongly disagree with the words "with an eye towards slightly more stringent standards" My experience has been, with much more stringent standards.
I agree that "CAC Grading Service will not net grade coins with problems like the other grading companies might do."
I also agree that "CAC Grading Service will be placing problem-free, C quality coins in straight grade holders, but at a grade for which they feel the coin is solid."
Seems like nothing more than miscommunication as winesteven suggested.
Remember, JA said "Keep in mind, we have to be diplomatic and state that if a coin doesn’t sticker it doesn’t mean it’s over-graded, it just doesn’t meet out standard. There’s no right and wrong here, every grading service has a different standard."
One thing I hope they do (and wish the grading companies would too) is if that a coin ends up with a details grade, enclose a one or two sentence explanation of what and where on the coin the issue was found. Yes, sometimes it's painfully obvious if it's an abrasive cleaning but if it's something much smaller like a hidden tooling or mark, point it out to the submitter so they (and us) could get an education.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Greasy!
I know!
Use this event to go to the ONE HUNDRED POINT GRADING !!!!
Perhaps we're splitting hairs. Can we agree in your scenario that the coins that remain in that grade meet the CAC standards for being solid for the grade, since the "C" coins (those that did not meet their standards for being solid for the grade) are no longer there?
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
What you're saying is coins that CAC previously green stickered as "solid for the grade B coins" are now low end for grade at CAC Grading company. That's splitting hairs and likely not what the new CAC Grading company has in mind.