@dollarfan said:
Will a coin that already has a sticker get a plus grade? Or just a plus graded coin that has a sticker? I'm very confused
Neither of these you mention will be automatic:
If a PCGS coin with a sticker or an NGC coin with a sticker is currently in a whole grade number, when sent to CAC grading to cross, it MIGHT get a plus grade. Those coins are deemed by CAC as an “A” coin or a “B” coin. If CAC Grading feels it’s close to the next higher whole grade number but not quite there, it could likely get a plus.
Same scenario as above, but the PCGS or NGC coin with a sticker already has a plus grade given by that TPG, and is sent to CAC grading to cross. While this coin won’t automatically get a plus grade, it too MIGHT. Remember that when CAC originally applied it’s sticker to that TPG coin, all CAC said was that coin was solid for that whole grade number, NOT that it was solid as a plus. CAC may or may not have agreed the coin merited the plus. So while this coin may have a better shot at a plus grade in its new CAC holder since PCGS or NGC felt it merited the plus, only by trying to cross will you find out.
In this next scenario, let’s say you submit a coin to cross WITHOUT a sticker, and let’s assume it has either previously failed getting a CAC sticker, or was never previously submitted to CAC but if it had been, would fail getting a sticker. Let’s also assume the coin is deemed by CAC grading as “problem-free” with no “surface issues”, but does not have a sticker because CAC deems it a “C” coin (low end for its assigned grade). Let’s assume it’s current grade is 65. In that case, John Albanese has said it will get holdered, but most likely given a grade of 64+, but possibly just 64. In effect, CAC grading is saying that coin was not solid as a 65, but IS solid as a 64+, or 64.
When collectors submit coins to cross, on the form they can clearly indicate their choice to “cross at any grade”, or they can specify a minimum grade to accept a cross. For example, if you submit a 65, you can say to only cross at 65 or better, or 64+ or better, 64 or better, or cross at any grade. You can also specify in this example of a 65 coin to only cross at 65+, or 66, etc. One collector asked JA if his attractive 65 with a gold CAC sticker can be requested to cross only at 68 or better. JA’s reply was “Yes you can”. In MY opinion, the chance of success of it crossing at 3 points higher, even with the gold sticker, is a long shot.
You may or may not agree with the CAC information that CAC has provided, but all of the information above is from the detailed information I have read and heard from JA. These are NOT my ideas, so if you disagree with how it seems they’ll be proceeding next year, please don’t argue with me. I’m just trying to pass along information in as clear a manner as I can.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
This has become the mother of all CAC threads. Let me begin by saying I am neither pro nor anti CAC.
That being said, I always look at the coin first and foremost. As a general rule, I think CAC coins TEND
to be nicer. However, I do not kneel at the altar of the sticker. I look at the coin. Is my opinion as
qualified as John Albanese (or any full-time dealer). Of course not. I do know what I like and don't like. I also collect several series where the added expense of CAC cannot be justified. If I see a $100 dollar coin in a slab, I could make a case that it very well could sticker, but why? It won't add enough
value to justify the expense. I've purchased $50 coins that have the sticker, but I wouldn't have bothered with it. There are those who feel every coin they buy must have a sticker. I am not among them.
Do you plan put in nuclear bids for the CAC Slabs when they come out? Wonder when they will be on eBay or GC. Or will you just buy from dealer or eBay buy it now.
How fierce do you think auction bidding will be on the CAC slabs?
Originally, all of my coins were raw but my wife convinced me that since she knows very littlie about coins that it might be advantageous to have the more expensive coins slabbed should I die first. Over the years, I have used the services of ANACS because of their modest fee (and for me) fast turnaround time. Each collector who employs a TPG company has their favorite company for good reason but in reading this discussion, it sure seems that collecting has the potential to get very complicated and for me, that takes a lot of the enjoyment away. Please remember, in the final analysis, market grading is very subjective and it is what you think about the coin that matters most.
You shouldn't fret. CAC grading will not straight grade coins with messed with surfaces. They will receive details grades. In analyzing surfaces, CAC grading will be using the same standards as CAC sticking.
Hmm... We are not really talking about 'messed with surfaces'. What I mean is 'lightly cleaned long ago' that makes it into a gradable holder with other TPG's that would not make it to being bean worthy. I am in a wait and see after reading the CAC email, announcement, and interpretation here, I can't imagine that CAC as a slabbing company is going to hold the same standards they do as a stickering company. Those here that think they will, I hope you are right, but..............................
HST, I fully plan to test this hypothesis on the standards, I will be first in line to send in CAC rejected coins to CAC for crossover just to see.
Best, SH
A really good test of this would be to send what is deemed to be a "market acceptable" Bust $ which in a PCGS or NGC holder. This describes most of said coins.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I know many many people will disagree with me on this, but this is my opinion. I never understood the love affair for beans and the increase price people will pay for them. Once I see a graded coin (assuming it’s real) the only two issues are eye appeal and price. I never paid a premium for a bean.
To me if pcgs or ngc graded a coin, say ms65, then that is their object opinion of the grade. I don’t need a third party giving me a little sticker that means it is really high in that grade. To me it always appeared to be a money grab and yet the market says I am wrong since so many people pay extra for the beans.
In terms of cac becoming a true grading company and competitor to pcgs and ngc I think it is great. The question becomes which company will the market deem to be superior. Thus, if there are three coins with similar eye appeal pcgs ms65, ngc ms65, and cac ms65 which would you buy if priced the same?
Or a better question is would you pay a premium for one over the other two?
@Ppp said:
I know many many people will disagree with me on this, but this is my opinion. I never understood the love affair for beans and the increase price people will pay for them. Once I see a graded coin (assuming it’s real) the only two issues are eye appeal and price. I never paid a premium for a bean.
To me if pcgs or ngc graded a coin, say ms65, then that is their object opinion of the grade. I don’t need a third party giving me a little sticker that means it is really high in that grade. To me it always appeared to be a money grab and yet the market says I am wrong since so many people pay extra for the beans.
In terms of cac becoming a true grading company and competitor to pcgs and ngc I think it is great. The question becomes which company will the market deem to be superior. Thus, if there are three coins with similar eye appeal pcgs ms65, ngc ms65, and cac ms65 which would you buy if priced the same?
Or a better question is would you pay a premium for one over the other two?
My 2 cts ....if I understand correctly...
The fact that as you say, the green label adds monetary value to your coin, then which graded 65 would you buy at a premium? The backers seem to be trying to leverage JA's grading reputation within the hobby to give the firm an instant edge over their two competitors.
@Ppp said:
I know many many people will disagree with me on this, but this is my opinion. I never understood the love affair for beans and the increase price people will pay for them. Once I see a graded coin (assuming it’s real) the only two issues are eye appeal and price. I never paid a premium for a bean.
To me if pcgs or ngc graded a coin, say ms65, then that is their object opinion of the grade. I don’t need a third party giving me a little sticker that means it is really high in that grade. To me it always appeared to be a money grab and yet the market says I am wrong since so many people pay extra for the beans.
The bean is about the surfaces, this is where CAC excels, evaluating the surface quality of a coin. It takes alot of exposure to bad and good surfaces to understand this. This is why I am concerned that the CAC slabbing will water down the surface message of the bean..............
Jkrk: Hmmmmmmmm
I didn’t think of it that way but I can see where you can make that connection.
I personally would not pay extra for a green bean slabbed coin. To me a ms65 (as an example) from pcgs or ngc is an ms 65 and I then look at eye appeal and price to determine which to buy. The market however determined that if a green bean is on the slab then a premium is warranted (but not from me). So from that standpoint the market has already spoken that cac may be superior however does than mean in the future when cac grades an ms 65 that would be equivalent to all current pcgs and ngc ms65s with a green bean? If yes, then that might mean a lot of current pcgs and ngc ms 65’s that would not get a current bean would be graded as an ms64 by cac. 🤔
It will be very interesting to see how this unfolds as cac graded coins hit the market.
@Ppp said:
I know many many people will disagree with me on this, but this is my opinion. I never understood the love affair for beans and the increase price people will pay for them. Once I see a graded coin (assuming it’s real) the only two issues are eye appeal and price. I never paid a premium for a bean.
To me if pcgs or ngc graded a coin, say ms65, then that is their object opinion of the grade. I don’t need a third party giving me a little sticker that means it is really high in that grade. To me it always appeared to be a money grab and yet the market says I am wrong since so many people pay extra for the beans.
In terms of cac becoming a true grading company and competitor to pcgs and ngc I think it is great. The question becomes which company will the market deem to be superior. Thus, if there are three coins with similar eye appeal pcgs ms65, ngc ms65, and cac ms65 which would you buy if priced the same?
Or a better question is would you pay a premium for one over the other two?
@Ppp said:
I know many many people will disagree with me on this, but this is my opinion. I never understood the love affair for beans and the increase price people will pay for them. Once I see a graded coin (assuming it’s real) the only two issues are eye appeal and price. I never paid a premium for a bean.
To me if pcgs or ngc graded a coin, say ms65, then that is their object opinion of the grade. I don’t need a third party giving me a little sticker that means it is really high in that grade. To me it always appeared to be a money grab and yet the market says I am wrong since so many people pay extra for the beans.
The bean is about the surfaces, this is where CAC excels, evaluating the surface quality of a coin. It takes alot of exposure to bad and good surfaces to understand this. This is why I am concerned that the CAC slabbing will water down the surface message of the bean..............
I've seen plenty of green stickered coins that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est.
In terms of cac becoming a true grading company and competitor to pcgs and ngc I think it is great. The question becomes which company will the market deem to be superior. Thus, if there are three coins with similar eye appeal pcgs ms65, ngc ms65, and cac ms65 which would you buy if priced the same?
Or a better question is would you pay a premium for one over the other two?
I'll never have this option as not a single coin I buy is anywhere near this common where this many comparable coins exist.
Aside from inflating the price level which I do not want, I see no significance to any actually scarce or rare coin graded this way. If really scarce or rare, it's not like the buyer has an option. You buy what is available or not at all.
@Ppp said:
I know many many people will disagree with me on this, but this is my opinion. I never understood the love affair for beans and the increase price people will pay for them. Once I see a graded coin (assuming it’s real) the only two issues are eye appeal and price. I never paid a premium for a bean.
To me if pcgs or ngc graded a coin, say ms65, then that is their object opinion of the grade. I don’t need a third party giving me a little sticker that means it is really high in that grade. To me it always appeared to be a money grab and yet the market says I am wrong since so many people pay extra for the beans.
The bean is about the surfaces, this is where CAC excels, evaluating the surface quality of a coin. It takes alot of exposure to bad and good surfaces to understand this. This is why I am concerned that the CAC slabbing will water down the surface message of the bean..............
I've seen plenty of green stickered coins that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est.
@VanHalen - What was the message you were trying to get across with that comment?
CAC is not perfect but here are my thoughts when I read your comment and others like it. It has been my experience that CAC has had the strictest standards and has been the most consistent in the industry. Judging from the market results, I am not the only one who feels this way. In the series I collect (Seated Dollars) it doesn’t take much time to scroll through eBay, Heritage, Stacks and Great Collections, for you to see the amount of problem coins that are considered market acceptable and are straight graded by the big two. It is a series that is plagued with cleanings (both old and new), dipping, tooling, damage and artificial toning. I would say ~70% of straight graded SLDs in straight graded plastic has some sort of issue. Maybe 50% (maybe more) out of that 70% are coins that have obvious issues to the naked eye. Take a look at 100 CAC coins and then compare to 100 non CAC coins and tell me if you see a difference. I guarantee this exercise will be an eye opener. CAC is an incredible resource that MOST collectors can learn from. I know that I have a much better coin eye now compared to before I learned/submitted to CAC. The sticker collector membership was the best deal in numismatics. Those that took advantage of the opportunity have been and will continue to reap the benefits of this great company.
@Crusty said:>
CAC is not perfect but here are my thoughts when I read your comment and others like it. It has been my experience that CAC has had the strictest standards and has been the most consistent in the industry. Judging from the market results, I am not the only one who feels this way. In the series I collect (Seated Dollars) it doesn’t take much time to scroll through eBay, Heritage, Stacks and Great Collections, for you to see the amount of problem coins that are considered market acceptable and are straight graded by the big two. It is a series that is plagued with cleanings (both old and new), dipping, tooling, damage and artificial toning. I would say ~70% of straight graded SLDs in straight graded plastic has some sort of issue. Maybe 50% (maybe more) out of that 70% are coins that have obvious issues to the naked eye. Take a look at 100 CAC coins and then compare to 100 non CAC coins and tell me if you see a difference. I guarantee this exercise will be an eye opener. CAC is an incredible resource that MOST collectors can learn from. I know that I have a much better coin eye now compared to before I learned/submitted to CAC. The sticker collector membership was the best deal in numismatics. Those that took advantage of the opportunity have been and will continue to reap the benefits of this great company.
Thoughts?
@VanHalen - This. No Stratocasters with painted straight lines on it ...............
Seriously, this is bang on what Crusty lays out. Seated Dollars are the key example as to why CAC beans need to exist. Can they switch this to slabs and make money or will they have to lower their standards to grade (and charge) for putting slabs (with numeric grades) around lower quality examples? I remain on the fence on this issue.
@Cougar1978 said:
No I won’t pay a premium for a bean either or because who a TPG belongs to. Nor would I get in a bid war to win one.
Where is the CAC premium in Redbook, CW Trends, NN Coin Market, Coin Prices?
It’s nothing personal I just don’t give a hoot about paying that.
What you will pay a premium for are examples that did not pass CAC and are of far lower quality in terms of surfaces yet list at the same retail price according to some price guides? Me, hail yes I will pay a premium for quality and on average CAC beans means quality for the grade and I will gladly pay up for that. I mean, do you want Baker Mayfield of Joe Montana at the same price? Quality, it always has a premium..............
I've seen plenty of green stickered coins that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est.
I've seen trillions of coins that did not get the green sticker that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est. So........?
@spacehayduke said:
Quality, it always has a premium..............
Some people won't pay a premium for quality. A good thing to remember, when it comes to who you buy from.
Especially when most (the overwhelming majority) of these coins are actually common. The views on this forum are a distinct minority among collectors because many coins that do not meet these quality standards are interchangeable to them. They would rather have the lower quality coin for less money.
It also depends upon the premium. I don't buy this coinage but if I did, I'd pay a modest TBD premium for it. I've looked at Liberty Seated dollars and it's a good example.
I'd never pay a (very) "large" one because the coins aren't interesting enough to me. I certainly wouldn't buy the "dreck" I've seen either because I do not like these coins.
Defining it as an "either" or an "or" is the false dilemma fallacy. There is always the choice to buy something else entirely or not at all.
That's what happens in a less favorable seller's market or one favoring buyers.
I've seen plenty of green stickered coins that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est.
I've seen trillions of coins that did not get the green sticker that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est. So........?
Trillions really? You have spent hundreds of years viewing CAC approved coins I assume?
Many dipped, and some over-dipped, coins have CAC stickers. People who think CAC is infallible and only sticker coins with original surfaces is ridiculous.
@spacehayduke said:
Quality, it always has a premium..............
Some people won't pay a premium for quality. A good thing to remember, when it comes to who you buy from.
Especially when most (the overwhelming majority) of these coins are actually common. The views on this forum are a distinct minority among collectors because many coins that do not meet these quality standards are interchangeable to them. They would rather have the lower quality coin for less money.
It also depends upon the premium. I don't buy this coinage but if I did, I'd pay a modest TBD premium for it. I've looked at Liberty Seated dollars and it's a good example.
I'd never pay a (very) "large" one because the coins aren't interesting enough to me. I certainly wouldn't buy the "dreck" I've seen either because I do not like these coins.
Defining it as an "either" or an "or" is the false dilemma fallacy. There is always the choice to buy something else entirely or not at all.
That's what happens in a less favorable seller's market or one favoring buyers.
Nicely put.
On a very slightly different but related note, there are also those of us who might favor CAC for some types of coins but not others. I know absolutely nothing about EAC but I've reached the point in my type set where I want to start acquiring some. Rather than spend many hours of study and research for what will end up being two coin purchases total, I can pick what is eye appealing to me and be confident that one of the foremost authorities on grading American coinage has given the coin his stamp of approval for its current grade. That is worth a premium to me at purchase and, if I choose to sell, will likely be recouped, especially since I probably won't unwittingly end up with a problem coin.
For other series, I am happy to have the bean but it's not a deal breaker for me.
I've seen plenty of green stickered coins that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est.
I've seen trillions of coins that did not get the green sticker that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est. So........?
Trillions really? You have spent hundreds of years viewing CAC approved coins I assume?
It was clearly hyperbole but, if you wanna be a stickler about it, you've underestimated a bit with "hundreds of years"
Many dipped, and some over-dipped, coins have CAC stickers. People who think CAC is infallible and only sticker coins with original surfaces is ridiculous.
You ARE correct that CAC will indeed sticker coins that have been gently dipped, and people that think that CAC will only sticker coins that demonstrate full “originality” are incorrect. But this stickering of gently dipped coins is intentional, not done in error.
Every coin in my collection eligible for a CAC sticker has one, and my preference is for highly lustrous, blast white coins, especially with 20th Century silver. There’s absolutely no doubt a large portion of my coins have indeed been dipped, but apparently gently enough that CAC easily stickers them. And while the CAC sticker service has not recognized plus grades (the new CAC grading service WILL recognize plus grades), the majority of my coins, many gently dipped, have pluses. There’s nothing wrong with CAC having taken this position.
Here’s two examples. The first is a $1,000 coin, the second is a low five figure coin that PCGS just upgraded for me from MS66FH to MS66+FH:
With all this said, CAC will not sticker coins that they deem have been overdipped.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I agree with Steven. The fact of the matter is that CAC will sticker coins that have been dipped but they must still exhibit outstanding luster and have no other problems. Show me coins like that and I will buy them all day long. My 1917 S reverse and 1919 P Walkers are perfect examples. Both are white, lustrous and CAC stickered and I really like them both a lot.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@WCC said:
They would rather have the lower quality coin for less money.
In other words, "I never pay over greysheet."
Or, lately. "Redbook " which makes may roll my eyes every time someone references it.
The last time I looked “Redbook” prices represented full retail in many cases.
They often do for ultra moderns. Their price discrimination is, however, probably least accurate of any major publication. They are also annual so lag the marker. And especially when it comes to slabs, they don't even have enough pricing to discriminate a 20 from a 25 much less a 65 vs a 65+.
@WCC said:
They would rather have the lower quality coin for less money.
In other words, "I never pay over greysheet."
Or, lately. "Redbook " which makes may roll my eyes every time someone references it.
The last time I looked “Redbook” prices represented full retail in many cases.
They often do for ultra moderns. Their price discrimination is, however, probably least accurate of any major publication. They are also annual so lag the marker. And especially when it comes to slabs, they don't even have enough pricing to discriminate a 20 from a 25 much less a 65 vs a 65+.
Does Heritage use Redbook pricing for anything?
My comment was actually regarding classic coin prices I’d seen, not moderns.
I don’t know of any use of Redbook pricing by Heritage.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm really interested to see PCGS and NGC's response to CAC's attempt to redefine the pre-'64 US coin market. They deal with so many modern coins I'm not sure if there will be any hit to their bottom lines, but there is no doubt prestige associated with the great American rarities being encapsulated in your company's holder. CAC is making a strong case to dethrone PCGS in that realm with this endeavor. I don't know how PCGS/NGC walk back some their standards to align with CAC.
Also curious to see how CAC manages inevitable encapsulation entropy. PCGS has been a great standard bearer in the industry for 35 years IMO, but realistically, demand for more material, competition from NGC, and perhaps some grading inexperience has softened their threshold for market acceptability and condition rarity. CAC held the lofty position of essentially being the TPG arbiter, but now they will be faced with holdering "C" coins that are truly market acceptable, but do not have top tier surfaces and eye appeal. I think it will be tough to maintain the standards they have now on their stickered coins.
Maybe I missed this part of the discussion as I stepped away from the thread for a bit and did see all 9 pages of content.
I found it very interesting to read the FAQ section on the CAC forum site. JA mentions that many current 62/63 coins will grade 58+ at the new CACG company due to friction.
I would think that will make many here very happy as I know a large number of people here think grading has changed from the olden days.
The new CAC grading co has not graded a single coin yet. They will really need to attract submitters in order to get on their feet. They have their work cut out for them. Last I checked a big recession is forecasted for 2023. I believe they will need to develop an App that will give value and pop for their material.
PCGS and NGC dominate the TPG market and IMO will continue to do so. It will be interesting 6 months into 2023 to do an analysis of the number of TPG slabs on eBay see how the CAC grading service stacks up vs the other 4.
Not everybody collects or is dealing predominately in US Classic Coins. PCGS is my TPG of choice for many reasons and will remain so for the forseeable future.
Much like having a baby it is never a good time to start a new business. I started mine in the worst recession our country ever had: 1981. Don't even get me started on having babies.
@Cougar1978 said:
The new CAC grading co has not graded a single coin yet. They will really need to attract submitters in order to get on their feet. They have their work cut out for them. Last I checked a big recession is forecasted for 2023. I believe they will need to develop an App that will give value and pop for their material.
PCGS and NGC dominate the TPG market and IMO will continue to do so. It will be interesting 6 months into 2023 to do an analysis of the number of TPG slabs on eBay see how the CAC grading service stacks up vs the other 4.
Not everybody collects or is dealing predominately in US Classic Coins. PCGS is my TPG of choice for many reasons and will remain so for the forseeable future.
From what I understand, CAC grading has absolutely no intention or goal of being #1 in size. Instead, they are looking to be a boutique TPG, serving the niche market of collectors and dealers who prefer the grading standards that CAC will offer. Using an analogy, Legend Auctions has no desire to auction more coins than GC, Heritage, Stacks, or DLRC. Those are all very fine auction firms. Legend is just different with the niche market they serve.
The real question is not after time HOW MANY of their slabs are on eBay, but how do the prices they sell for compare to the other two major TPG’s for coins in the SAME GRADE!
Keep in mind that the number of CAC slabs on the market will be reduced, since there will probably be a higher percentage that will be kept deep in collections!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@JRGeyer said:
I'm really interested to see PCGS and NGC's response to CAC's attempt to redefine the pre-'64 US coin market. They deal with so many modern coins I'm not sure if there will be any hit to their bottom lines, but there is no doubt prestige associated with the great American rarities being encapsulated in your company's holder. CAC is making a strong case to dethrone PCGS in that realm with this endeavor. I don't know how PCGS/NGC walk back some their standards to align with CAC.
Also curious to see how CAC manages inevitable encapsulation entropy. PCGS has been a great standard bearer in the industry for 35 years IMO, but realistically, demand for more material, competition from NGC, and perhaps some grading inexperience has softened their threshold for market acceptability and condition rarity. CAC held the lofty position of essentially being the TPG arbiter, but now they will be faced with holdering "C" coins that are truly market acceptable, but do not have top tier surfaces and eye appeal. I think it will be tough to maintain the standards they have now on their stickered coins.
This is what I have been trying to say, well said JRG!
From what I understand, CAC grading has absolutely no intention or goal of being #1 in size. Instead, they are looking to be a boutique TPG, serving the niche market of collectors and dealers who prefer the grading standards that CAC will offer.
Keep in mind that the number of CAC slabs on the market will be reduced, since there will probably be a higher percentage that will be kept deep in collections!
Steve
And grading prices haven't been announced yet, but I suspect, along with their boutique-ness, will come boutique prices, meaning abit higher than PCGS/NGC. I would not be surprised if their base grading starts at $75 or something like that........ That would also help them to stay small and mostly get better quality and more expensive coins in for grading.
From what I understand, CAC grading has absolutely no intention or goal of being #1 in size. Instead, they are looking to be a boutique TPG, serving the niche market of collectors and dealers who prefer the grading standards that CAC will offer.
Keep in mind that the number of CAC slabs on the market will be reduced, since there will probably be a higher percentage that will be kept deep in collections!
Steve
And grading prices haven't been announced yet, but I suspect, along with their boutique-ness, will come boutique prices, meaning abit higher than PCGS/NGC. I would not be surprised if their base grading starts at $75 or something like that........ That would also help them to stay small and mostly get better quality and more expensive coins in for grading.
Best, SH
I'm not sure of that at all. There will likely be tiers for speed of service but JA has made clear that he wants to be able to service the lower dollar (several hundred-ish) market as well and $75 standard grading fees do not help on that front.
From what I understand, CAC grading has absolutely no intention or goal of being #1 in size. Instead, they are looking to be a boutique TPG, serving the niche market of collectors and dealers who prefer the grading standards that CAC will offer.
Keep in mind that the number of CAC slabs on the market will be reduced, since there will probably be a higher percentage that will be kept deep in collections!
Steve
And grading prices haven't been announced yet, but I suspect, along with their boutique-ness, will come boutique prices, meaning abit higher than PCGS/NGC. I would not be surprised if their base grading starts at $75 or something like that........ That would also help them to stay small and mostly get better quality and more expensive coins in for grading.
Best, SH
I don’t think that CACG is looking to be the largest grading company. At the same time, I doubt that they’re aiming at “boutique-ness” either, or that they will charge “boutique” grading fees.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@pcgscacgold said:
Maybe I missed this part of the discussion as I stepped away from the thread for a bit and did see all 9 pages of content.
I found it very interesting to read the FAQ section on the CAC forum site. JA mentions that many current 62/63 coins will grade 58+ at the new CACG company due to friction.
I would think that will make many here very happy as I know a large number of people here think grading has changed from the olden days.
This probably applies to many Capped Bust Halves in that grade range. Have seen quite a few of them. You need to know your Overton varieties for coins and actually look at coins in these grades, as some just aren't fully struck up, while others may show slight traces of 'friction.'
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@pcgscacgold said:
Maybe I missed this part of the discussion as I stepped away from the thread for a bit and did see all 9 pages of content.
I found it very interesting to read the FAQ section on the CAC forum site. JA mentions that many current 62/63 coins will grade 58+ at the new CACG company due to friction.
I would think that will make many here very happy as I know a large number of people here think grading has changed from the olden days.
This probably applies to many Capped Bust Halves in that grade range. Have seen quite a few of them. You need to know your Overton varieties for coins and actually look at coins in these grades, as some just aren't fully struck up, while others may show slight traces of 'friction.'
I agree. I also think it will help explain why so many 62/63 gold coins are declined a sticker. I bet he sees friction on those as well.
A, B, C coin questions are answered!
A = Plus grade (I was right about that! It is the simplest way to designate a coin that is high within the grade.)
B = straight grade
C = details grade or net graded to lower grade (even though "market acceptable" in a different slab, not up to CAC standards).
This approach adds value, because now A coins are identified,
while before A and B coins both got the green sticker.
This implies that the C and borderline B/C coins will likely be sent to PCGS first.
Then the owner might try for a crossover to CAC at the same grade (equivalent to getting a sticker).
If a C or B/C coin is sent to CAC first and ends up in a details or lower grade holder,
then the owner might want to crack it out and send it to PCGS.
If it's in a PCGS holder with no sticker, buyers do not know if it has been to CAC and rejected for a straight CAC grade.
Same as it is today.
If it is in a CAC details holder, then a buyer would know this for certain.
Comments
Da Coingeek speaketh on the CAC announcement, I see a leetle bit of skepticism here by Ben, but a leetle bit of optimism too.
Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv22LCqTWy8
Will a coin that already has a sticker get a plus grade? Or just a plus graded coin that has a sticker? I'm very confused
Am clueless there.
I really like PCGS plus graded coins. Have handled a few - they did not stay in inventory very long.
Neither of these you mention will be automatic:
You may or may not agree with the CAC information that CAC has provided, but all of the information above is from the detailed information I have read and heard from JA. These are NOT my ideas, so if you disagree with how it seems they’ll be proceeding next year, please don’t argue with me. I’m just trying to pass along information in as clear a manner as I can.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The biggest immediate crossovers will be from NGC slabs that are stickered that PCGS refused to cross.
This has become the mother of all CAC threads. Let me begin by saying I am neither pro nor anti CAC.
That being said, I always look at the coin first and foremost. As a general rule, I think CAC coins TEND
to be nicer. However, I do not kneel at the altar of the sticker. I look at the coin. Is my opinion as
qualified as John Albanese (or any full-time dealer). Of course not. I do know what I like and don't like. I also collect several series where the added expense of CAC cannot be justified. If I see a $100 dollar coin in a slab, I could make a case that it very well could sticker, but why? It won't add enough
value to justify the expense. I've purchased $50 coins that have the sticker, but I wouldn't have bothered with it. There are those who feel every coin they buy must have a sticker. I am not among them.
Nah, this is nothing compared to some of the CAC threads that floated around years ago…..
A lot of reasonable discussion/speculation though. Not like the snake fights years ago.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Do you plan put in nuclear bids for the CAC Slabs when they come out? Wonder when they will be on eBay or GC. Or will you just buy from dealer or eBay buy it now.
How fierce do you think auction bidding will be on the CAC slabs?
Patience is a virtue.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Originally, all of my coins were raw but my wife convinced me that since she knows very littlie about coins that it might be advantageous to have the more expensive coins slabbed should I die first. Over the years, I have used the services of ANACS because of their modest fee (and for me) fast turnaround time. Each collector who employs a TPG company has their favorite company for good reason but in reading this discussion, it sure seems that collecting has the potential to get very complicated and for me, that takes a lot of the enjoyment away. Please remember, in the final analysis, market grading is very subjective and it is what you think about the coin that matters most.
A really good test of this would be to send what is deemed to be a "market acceptable" Bust $ which in a PCGS or NGC holder. This describes most of said coins.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I know many many people will disagree with me on this, but this is my opinion. I never understood the love affair for beans and the increase price people will pay for them. Once I see a graded coin (assuming it’s real) the only two issues are eye appeal and price. I never paid a premium for a bean.
To me if pcgs or ngc graded a coin, say ms65, then that is their object opinion of the grade. I don’t need a third party giving me a little sticker that means it is really high in that grade. To me it always appeared to be a money grab and yet the market says I am wrong since so many people pay extra for the beans.
In terms of cac becoming a true grading company and competitor to pcgs and ngc I think it is great. The question becomes which company will the market deem to be superior. Thus, if there are three coins with similar eye appeal pcgs ms65, ngc ms65, and cac ms65 which would you buy if priced the same?
Or a better question is would you pay a premium for one over the other two?
My 2 cts ....if I understand correctly...
The fact that as you say, the green label adds monetary value to your coin, then which graded 65 would you buy at a premium? The backers seem to be trying to leverage JA's grading reputation within the hobby to give the firm an instant edge over their two competitors.
The bean is about the surfaces, this is where CAC excels, evaluating the surface quality of a coin. It takes alot of exposure to bad and good surfaces to understand this. This is why I am concerned that the CAC slabbing will water down the surface message of the bean..............
Jkrk: Hmmmmmmmm
I didn’t think of it that way but I can see where you can make that connection.
I personally would not pay extra for a green bean slabbed coin. To me a ms65 (as an example) from pcgs or ngc is an ms 65 and I then look at eye appeal and price to determine which to buy. The market however determined that if a green bean is on the slab then a premium is warranted (but not from me). So from that standpoint the market has already spoken that cac may be superior however does than mean in the future when cac grades an ms 65 that would be equivalent to all current pcgs and ngc ms65s with a green bean? If yes, then that might mean a lot of current pcgs and ngc ms 65’s that would not get a current bean would be graded as an ms64 by cac. 🤔
It will be very interesting to see how this unfolds as cac graded coins hit the market.
Good luck should you decide to sell your coins.
I've seen plenty of green stickered coins that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est.
I'll never have this option as not a single coin I buy is anywhere near this common where this many comparable coins exist.
Aside from inflating the price level which I do not want, I see no significance to any actually scarce or rare coin graded this way. If really scarce or rare, it's not like the buyer has an option. You buy what is available or not at all.
@VanHalen - What was the message you were trying to get across with that comment?
CAC is not perfect but here are my thoughts when I read your comment and others like it. It has been my experience that CAC has had the strictest standards and has been the most consistent in the industry. Judging from the market results, I am not the only one who feels this way. In the series I collect (Seated Dollars) it doesn’t take much time to scroll through eBay, Heritage, Stacks and Great Collections, for you to see the amount of problem coins that are considered market acceptable and are straight graded by the big two. It is a series that is plagued with cleanings (both old and new), dipping, tooling, damage and artificial toning. I would say ~70% of straight graded SLDs in straight graded plastic has some sort of issue. Maybe 50% (maybe more) out of that 70% are coins that have obvious issues to the naked eye. Take a look at 100 CAC coins and then compare to 100 non CAC coins and tell me if you see a difference. I guarantee this exercise will be an eye opener. CAC is an incredible resource that MOST collectors can learn from. I know that I have a much better coin eye now compared to before I learned/submitted to CAC. The sticker collector membership was the best deal in numismatics. Those that took advantage of the opportunity have been and will continue to reap the benefits of this great company.
Thoughts?
I would be surprised if anybody could demonstrate the ability to reliably distinguish a difference of a second or two in diluted e-Z-est.
No I won’t pay a premium for a bean either or because who a TPG belongs to. Nor would I get in a bid war to win one.
Where is the CAC premium in Redbook, CW Trends, NN Coin Market, Coin Prices?
It’s nothing personal I just don’t give a hoot about paying that.
@VanHalen - This. No Stratocasters with painted straight lines on it ...............
Seriously, this is bang on what Crusty lays out. Seated Dollars are the key example as to why CAC beans need to exist. Can they switch this to slabs and make money or will they have to lower their standards to grade (and charge) for putting slabs (with numeric grades) around lower quality examples? I remain on the fence on this issue.
Best, SH
What you will pay a premium for are examples that did not pass CAC and are of far lower quality in terms of surfaces yet list at the same retail price according to some price guides? Me, hail yes I will pay a premium for quality and on average CAC beans means quality for the grade and I will gladly pay up for that. I mean, do you want Baker Mayfield of Joe Montana at the same price? Quality, it always has a premium..............
I've seen trillions of coins that did not get the green sticker that appear to have spent a second or two too long in somebody's diluted e-Z-est. So........?
Some people won't pay a premium for quality. A good thing to remember, when it comes to who you buy from.
Especially when most (the overwhelming majority) of these coins are actually common. The views on this forum are a distinct minority among collectors because many coins that do not meet these quality standards are interchangeable to them. They would rather have the lower quality coin for less money.
It also depends upon the premium. I don't buy this coinage but if I did, I'd pay a modest TBD premium for it. I've looked at Liberty Seated dollars and it's a good example.
I'd never pay a (very) "large" one because the coins aren't interesting enough to me. I certainly wouldn't buy the "dreck" I've seen either because I do not like these coins.
Defining it as an "either" or an "or" is the false dilemma fallacy. There is always the choice to buy something else entirely or not at all.
That's what happens in a less favorable seller's market or one favoring buyers.
In other words, "I never pay over greysheet."
Trillions really? You have spent hundreds of years viewing CAC approved coins I assume?
Many dipped, and some over-dipped, coins have CAC stickers. People who think CAC is infallible and only sticker coins with original surfaces is ridiculous.
Nicely put.
On a very slightly different but related note, there are also those of us who might favor CAC for some types of coins but not others. I know absolutely nothing about EAC but I've reached the point in my type set where I want to start acquiring some. Rather than spend many hours of study and research for what will end up being two coin purchases total, I can pick what is eye appealing to me and be confident that one of the foremost authorities on grading American coinage has given the coin his stamp of approval for its current grade. That is worth a premium to me at purchase and, if I choose to sell, will likely be recouped, especially since I probably won't unwittingly end up with a problem coin.
For other series, I am happy to have the bean but it's not a deal breaker for me.
It was clearly hyperbole but, if you wanna be a stickler about it, you've underestimated a bit with "hundreds of years"
You ARE correct that CAC will indeed sticker coins that have been gently dipped, and people that think that CAC will only sticker coins that demonstrate full “originality” are incorrect. But this stickering of gently dipped coins is intentional, not done in error.
Every coin in my collection eligible for a CAC sticker has one, and my preference is for highly lustrous, blast white coins, especially with 20th Century silver. There’s absolutely no doubt a large portion of my coins have indeed been dipped, but apparently gently enough that CAC easily stickers them. And while the CAC sticker service has not recognized plus grades (the new CAC grading service WILL recognize plus grades), the majority of my coins, many gently dipped, have pluses. There’s nothing wrong with CAC having taken this position.
Here’s two examples. The first is a $1,000 coin, the second is a low five figure coin that PCGS just upgraded for me from MS66FH to MS66+FH:
With all this said, CAC will not sticker coins that they deem have been overdipped.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I agree with Steven. The fact of the matter is that CAC will sticker coins that have been dipped but they must still exhibit outstanding luster and have no other problems. Show me coins like that and I will buy them all day long. My 1917 S reverse and 1919 P Walkers are perfect examples. Both are white, lustrous and CAC stickered and I really like them both a lot.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Or, lately. "Redbook " which makes may roll my eyes every time someone references it.
The last time I looked “Redbook” prices represented full retail in many cases.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They often do for ultra moderns. Their price discrimination is, however, probably least accurate of any major publication. They are also annual so lag the marker. And especially when it comes to slabs, they don't even have enough pricing to discriminate a 20 from a 25 much less a 65 vs a 65+.
Does Heritage use Redbook pricing for anything?
My comment was actually regarding classic coin prices I’d seen, not moderns.
I don’t know of any use of Redbook pricing by Heritage.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm really interested to see PCGS and NGC's response to CAC's attempt to redefine the pre-'64 US coin market. They deal with so many modern coins I'm not sure if there will be any hit to their bottom lines, but there is no doubt prestige associated with the great American rarities being encapsulated in your company's holder. CAC is making a strong case to dethrone PCGS in that realm with this endeavor. I don't know how PCGS/NGC walk back some their standards to align with CAC.
Also curious to see how CAC manages inevitable encapsulation entropy. PCGS has been a great standard bearer in the industry for 35 years IMO, but realistically, demand for more material, competition from NGC, and perhaps some grading inexperience has softened their threshold for market acceptability and condition rarity. CAC held the lofty position of essentially being the TPG arbiter, but now they will be faced with holdering "C" coins that are truly market acceptable, but do not have top tier surfaces and eye appeal. I think it will be tough to maintain the standards they have now on their stickered coins.
Maybe I missed this part of the discussion as I stepped away from the thread for a bit and did see all 9 pages of content.
I found it very interesting to read the FAQ section on the CAC forum site. JA mentions that many current 62/63 coins will grade 58+ at the new CACG company due to friction.
I would think that will make many here very happy as I know a large number of people here think grading has changed from the olden days.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
The new CAC grading co has not graded a single coin yet. They will really need to attract submitters in order to get on their feet. They have their work cut out for them. Last I checked a big recession is forecasted for 2023. I believe they will need to develop an App that will give value and pop for their material.
PCGS and NGC dominate the TPG market and IMO will continue to do so. It will be interesting 6 months into 2023 to do an analysis of the number of TPG slabs on eBay see how the CAC grading service stacks up vs the other 4.
Not everybody collects or is dealing predominately in US Classic Coins. PCGS is my TPG of choice for many reasons and will remain so for the forseeable future.
Much like having a baby it is never a good time to start a new business. I started mine in the worst recession our country ever had: 1981. Don't even get me started on having babies.
From what I understand, CAC grading has absolutely no intention or goal of being #1 in size. Instead, they are looking to be a boutique TPG, serving the niche market of collectors and dealers who prefer the grading standards that CAC will offer. Using an analogy, Legend Auctions has no desire to auction more coins than GC, Heritage, Stacks, or DLRC. Those are all very fine auction firms. Legend is just different with the niche market they serve.
The real question is not after time HOW MANY of their slabs are on eBay, but how do the prices they sell for compare to the other two major TPG’s for coins in the SAME GRADE!
Keep in mind that the number of CAC slabs on the market will be reduced, since there will probably be a higher percentage that will be kept deep in collections!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This is what I have been trying to say, well said JRG!
And grading prices haven't been announced yet, but I suspect, along with their boutique-ness, will come boutique prices, meaning abit higher than PCGS/NGC. I would not be surprised if their base grading starts at $75 or something like that........ That would also help them to stay small and mostly get better quality and more expensive coins in for grading.
Best, SH
I'm not sure of that at all. There will likely be tiers for speed of service but JA has made clear that he wants to be able to service the lower dollar (several hundred-ish) market as well and $75 standard grading fees do not help on that front.
I don’t think that CACG is looking to be the largest grading company. At the same time, I doubt that they’re aiming at “boutique-ness” either, or that they will charge “boutique” grading fees.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This probably applies to many Capped Bust Halves in that grade range. Have seen quite a few of them. You need to know your Overton varieties for coins and actually look at coins in these grades, as some just aren't fully struck up, while others may show slight traces of 'friction.'
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I agree. I also think it will help explain why so many 62/63 gold coins are declined a sticker. I bet he sees friction on those as well.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Second interview of John Albanese by John Feigenbaum.
A, B, C coin questions are answered!
A = Plus grade (I was right about that! It is the simplest way to designate a coin that is high within the grade.)
B = straight grade
C = details grade or net graded to lower grade (even though "market acceptable" in a different slab, not up to CAC standards).
This approach adds value, because now A coins are identified,
while before A and B coins both got the green sticker.
This implies that the C and borderline B/C coins will likely be sent to PCGS first.
Then the owner might try for a crossover to CAC at the same grade (equivalent to getting a sticker).
If a C or B/C coin is sent to CAC first and ends up in a details or lower grade holder,
then the owner might want to crack it out and send it to PCGS.
If it's in a PCGS holder with no sticker, buyers do not know if it has been to CAC and rejected for a straight CAC grade.
Same as it is today.
If it is in a CAC details holder, then a buyer would know this for certain.
If they're already thinking "A, B or C?" when grading, why not put A, B or C on the label?