@hfjacinto said:
I’m going to start a new service RNC (really nice coin) sticker company. I like your coin I put a red sticker on it! Heck if the coin is really really nice you get a purple sticker! I'll even RNC a CAC coin
If you had the market cachet of JA that would work. If not, the market will just laugh at your arrogance or ignorance.
[Yes, I know it is supposed to be a joke. But it is the 132nd time someone has made this joke in a CAC thread. ]
I really just wanted 100 LOL, I don't care if you liked it or not, several other people did.
One thing that cac brought back into the market in my opinion was the ability to trade coins "sight unseen" with an extra level of confidence.
My experience was once a coin was cac stickered, buyers had even more confidence that the coin truly was a nice coin and had good eye appeal.
Ugly 65s that are downgraded to 64 and nice pq 64s are not specifically equal.
As John Albanese numismatics still plans to buy and sell quality coins, I would have to imagine that somehow on the label it will have some type of designation to identify whether this coin is worthy of a sticker or pq that the same "sight unseen" market could be kept up
Very interesting. Now that the rumors are confirmed, we see commentary very similar to that which went on here when CAC was launched. I would say that the highly successful history that JA has in business startups should be a prime indication of the future for his new endeavor. I have no doubt it will be fun to watch, and I believe he will be - again - very successful. Cheers, RickO
@csdot said:
On a positive note, maybe this will bring more excitement and interest to the hobby.
It's relevant to the type of collector that participates on this forum but not relevant to the vast majority of collectors who don't even buy graded coins. This is also a business venture, which is related to the financial aspect. It will generate excitement and interest if it succeeds in further inflating the price level if that's what you mean.
@csdot said:
On a positive note, maybe this will bring more excitement and interest to the hobby.
It's relevant to the type of collector that participates on this forum but not relevant to the vast majority of collectors who don't even buy graded coins. This is also a business venture, which is related to the financial aspect. It will generate excitement and interest if it succeeds in further inflating the price level if that's what you mean.
The addition of another major grading company might result in lower grading costs for many coins, as opposed to “further inflating the price level”. It might also reduce turnaround times.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@hfjacinto said:
I’m going to start a new service RNC (really nice coin) sticker company. I like your coin I put a red sticker on it! Heck if the coin is really really nice you get a purple sticker! I'll even RNC a CAC coin
If you had the market cachet of JA that would work. If not, the market will just laugh at your arrogance or ignorance.
[Yes, I know it is supposed to be a joke. But it is the 132nd time someone has made this joke in a CAC thread. ]
I really just wanted 100 LOL, I don't care if you liked it or not, several other people did.
HOWEVER, phasing out of the stickers in favor of a grading service strikes me as a bit of a negative. One of the real advantages that I've always felt from CAC is that I have TWO sets of expert opinions. It was never that I trusted CAC more - though I did trust them. It was that I had CAC and NGC/PCGS. The odds that both sets of experts would simultaneously miss something is MUCH smaller.
I would rather have a PCGS/CAC coin than simply a CAC slabbed coin. So, frankly, I will miss the sticker more than I will rejoice in another slab company - even if they are excellent.
@joebb21 said:
One thing that cac brought back into the market in my opinion was the ability to trade coins "sight unseen" with an extra level of confidence.
My experience was once a coin was cac stickered, buyers had even more confidence that the coin truly was a nice coin and had good eye appeal.
Ugly 65s that are downgraded to 64 and nice pq 64s are not specifically equal.
As John Albanese numismatics still plans to buy and sell quality coins, I would have to imagine that somehow on the lable the it will have some type of designation to identify whether this coin is worthy of a sticker or pq that the same "sight unseen" market could be kept up
This is an interesting observation/question.
If he is currently buying A/B coins, what will the slabbing company do about C coins? They aren't automatic downgrades. He hates "+" grades. Maybe a "PQ" designation?
And if true would those three initials transferred all their coins to the new CAC holders?
There are many of his coins that did not sticker, so in theory if he submitted ALL of his coins to cross over to the new CAC holder, those coins without stickers now would then be in CAC holders at one grade lower!
Steve
Don't know about your 'in theory'. Do you have some confirmed information about how coins that did not sticker will be CAC graded outside of that one line in the video? That one line in the video seems thin to confirm this. This seems to be one of the many questions that is not answered at this time but will be in the future. That is how will 'C' coins be graded at CAC in general. Will there be any other distinction in the CAC grading system?
Note: I put in general in there because coin grading is subjective and some may down grade and others not. But what in general would be the CAC policy for these 'C' coins.
But the point was, if true, would this owner / major investor send their coins to the new CAC grading service? If not, then why not? And If so, then what impact would that have?
There have been many rumors swirling about the possibility of CAC becoming a traditional grading service and I believe it is time to address them. Technically speaking, the transaction has not been completed yet. However, I am extremely confident that the transaction will close by the end of 2022. If everything goes according to plan, we anticipate a “soft opening“ in the first quarter of 2023. The new company, CAC Grading, will have the same logo and will be located in a 29,000 square ft. facility in Virginia Beach.
We will keep our Bedminster, NJ office for stickering and customer service. Your CAC member number will remain the same but there will be a new application and submitter agreement as it will be a different corporation. We will also be adding approximately 100 new partners, many you are familiar with. I will be heavily involved as the president and CEO, signing a 10-year contract and spending at least one week each month in Virginia Beach until our team of 3 world class graders morphs into an interchangeable unit. In addition, I will be available 24/7 for tiebreakers if our team can’t come to a consensus.
We’ve already spent weeks collaborating with our grading team and I’m happy to report that we have slight differences of opinion in less than 2% of the coins. CAC stickering will continue through 2023, but our goal is to drastically reduce demand with a new pricing structure. Our loyal collector members will be entitled to submit 20 coins annually at the current normal tier rate and will only be charged for coins that sticker. After the 20-coin limit, the new rate will apply. Applicants that are currently on our waiting list will qualify for this service, as well.
It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service.
We will of course introduce a user-friendly registry program featuring two new registries. Our most popular registry will include NGC and PCGS coins, stickered or not, and the new CAC-holdered coins. We realize that there are many coins, especially from 1792-1807, that are virtually impossible to collect exclusively in CAC quality, so this registry has potential for broader inclusion. However, the CAC stickered and holdered coins will score higher than the non-CAC examples. The second registry will consist solely of NGC-CAC, PCGS-CAC and CAC encapsulated coins. When you submit to us your coin information, your CAC coins will populate and be showcased on both registries.
In order to keep our backlog under control the new company, CAC grading, will continue our current waiting list policy into the foreseeable future. Our goal is to provide top-notch customer service and turnaround times and I don’t believe this could be accomplished with unfettered growth. We aim to be the most consistent premium grading service, not the largest.
As many of you know, we have suspended our economy tier and it is highly possible this may be permanent with the exception of the 20-coin limit mentioned above. If this creates a hardship, please E-mail me at AlbaneseCoins@aol.com and we will try our best to accommodate.
We understand you may have questions at this time. We are in the process of building a comprehensive FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) section regarding the transition, so please follow the link below to submit your questions or refer to the other questions and answers therein. Your questions and answers will help other members find what they need as well.
Caccoin.com//forums
We appreciate your support and business through this time of change and are working hard to clear our submission backlog.
Thank you,
@2windy2fish said:
I am curious how the public perception of a CAC sticker will be on a CAC graded coin?
Wouldn’t a Gold bean be indicative of an incorrectly graded coin?
Something to ponder…
If an "A or B" coin would get a sticker then they should grade and slab only A or B coins with no sticker and NOT bother with "C" quality coins.
Maybe PCGS and/or NGC might consider stickering A and B quality coins.
I will never forget in 1987 walking- thru a $2.5 1831 Proof that slabbed NGC Pr 66, and a $2.5 1827 MS that slabbed MS 66, and having lunch with JA and Mark Salzberg. They are a class act.
Having said that…
I feel fortunate dealing in expensive and high end mint errors, die trials and selective patterns, where it is not that important whether it is NGC, PCGS, CAC sticker, or NGC +, PCGS +, or NGC + the CAC sticker, PCGS + the CAC sticker, or now the upcoming CAC slab.
Obviously on ‘regular’ coins that are expensive, it could potentially make a huge difference how it is slabbed.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The interview showed JA as a class act IMO. I particularly like the idea that more modestly priced coins can more economically be graded with tougher and more consistent standards - at least that is one objective. Although I don't collect them except as type, I also like the fact that moderns will be included, casting a wider net and creating more interest in the hobby. Perhaps we will see far fewer MS70's (an impossible grade to old timers like me).
So when a new model of a corvette (or some others) comes out, then sometimes the first one is identified and a special auction is held for it. How about the first CAC slab coin. Special label to identify and then....
Obviously CAC should ALSO include a free sticker on A&B coins and not on C coins. That will end that worry. Do I have to solve all the worlds problems?
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
I see a lot of confusion on this board as to whether a "c" coin will be graded by CAC. The answer is, it depends on the reason why the coin was labeled a "c" coin. An example will help.
Many years ago I took a beautiful original 1815 capped bust quarter graded PC50 to CAC. It didn't sticker. I asked JA why not. He said he saw the coin more as an EF 45 and if the coin were in a PC 45 holder, he would sticker it and consider it an "A" coin. In this case, it was technical grade, as opposed to problems with the coin, which was the reason for the coin not stickering. With the new CAC grading company, this coin would be put into an XF 45 holder.
Other coins do not sticker because they have problems, even though they satisfy the technical requirements for a grade. If a coin has been cleaned, repaired, excessively dipped, recolored, has excessive marks or rim bumps, scratches or hairlines, or otherwise "doctored", the coin will be a C coin no matter what the grade and will not be stickered by CAC, or straight graded by the new CAC grading company. Most of the coins that CAC sees that don't sticker fall into this category.
Will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Hoping for a positive difference in terms of many things mentioned above like turnaround times and fees. As for the holders it would be nice if they don't chip easily, fit in all of the plastic storage boxes, specs could be read from the top too without having to pull them from the storage boxes, and scratch resistant. A little bit of the best from all minus any issues any of us might feel exist with certain holders.
There's very little liability placing a bumper sticker on a car then actually manufacturing one. Big difference starting a new grading service in the 1980's when you're still a young whippersnapper instead of nearing retirement age. They might be better off just sticking to the sticker business which seems way less stressful and just as financially rewarding.
Once you reach a certain point in life it's about working smarter not harder. My local mechanic no longer does oil changes or rotates tires as the $20 profit isn't worth the wear and tear on his employees all aged 50-60 when they make thousands of dollars rebuilding an engine or transmission. CAC giving up the ability and profitability to purchase and resell coins they've stickered by grading coins seems much like a Jiffy Lube venture.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
It will be interesting how it shakes out and how other TPG’s respond and the impact on player business decisions. How will auctions be impacted?
His video addresses how C coins will be treated and I suggest you take a look if you have not seen it. I plan to view it again especially that part.
If my understanding of his video is correct only A or B coins will get his TPG grade say 65. C coins would get 64. So no need stickers on his CAC TPG graded coins. They would continue to sticker non CAC TPG coins that are A or B. And CPG for CAC would be consistent for MV for both his graded coins and coins of other TPG he stickered. As an x college accounting instructor I like the consistency of this. Beyond that it’s still a while off.
And if true would those three initials transferred all their coins to the new CAC holders?
There are many of his coins that did not sticker, so in theory if he submitted ALL of his coins to cross over to the new CAC holder, those coins without stickers now would then be in CAC holders at one grade lower!
Steve
Don't know about your 'in theory'. Do you have some confirmed information about how coins that did not sticker will be CAC graded outside of that one line in the video? That one line in the video seems thin to confirm this. This seems to be one of the many questions that is not answered at this time but will be in the future. That is how will 'C' coins be graded at CAC in general. Will there be any other distinction in the CAC grading system?
Note: I put in general in there because coin grading is subjective and some may down grade and others not. But what in general would be the CAC policy for these 'C' coins.
But the point was, if true, would this owner / major investor send their coins to the new CAC grading service? If not, then why not? And If so, then what impact would that have?
Don't forget that grading, albeit an expert opinion is still an opinion. Opinions change over time. That includes what would get a sticker 3 years ago versus now, in addition to grading standards that effectively changed what would be considered to be a copper RB versus A BN coin.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
I don't think this is always the case. A low luster or poorly struck coin that gets bumped down 1 grade doesn't change the fact of what it is, or become an A coin in that lower grade. In some cases it might, such as an extra nick here or there, but not always. Very subjective coin to coin, not universal.
@beboplawyer said:
I see a lot of confusion on this board as to whether a "c" coin will be graded by CAC. The answer is, it depends on the reason why the coin was labeled a "c" coin. An example will help.
Many years ago I took a beautiful original 1815 capped bust quarter graded PC50 to CAC. It didn't sticker. I asked JA why not. He said he saw the coin more as an EF 45 and if the coin were in a PC 45 holder, he would sticker it and consider it an "A" coin. In this case, it was technical grade, as opposed to problems with the coin, which was the reason for the coin not stickering. With the new CAC grading company, this coin would be put into an XF 45 holder.
Other coins do not sticker because they have problems, even though they satisfy the technical requirements for a grade. If a coin has been cleaned, repaired, excessively dipped, recolored, has excessive marks or rim bumps, scratches or hairlines, or otherwise "doctored", the coin will be a C coin no matter what the grade and will not be stickered by CAC, or straight graded by the new CAC grading company. Most of the coins that CAC sees that don't sticker fall into this category.
Hope this helps.
Focusing on the last of your comment with:
"If a coin has been cleaned, repaired, excessively dipped, recolored, has excessive marks or rim bumps, scratches or hairlines, or otherwise "doctored", the coin will be a C coin no matter what the grade and will not be stickered by CAC, or straight graded by the new CAC grading company. Most of the coins that CAC sees that don't sticker fall into this category."
I hope this is not the case. I say this because if about 40% of coins have received a CAC sticker and the other 60% that have not are mostly due to the above, then this would imply that CAC grading would 'body bag' most of the coins. This assuming that the coins sent for the CAC grading company are similar in quality to the coins that have been sent to the CAC sticker company.
Note: I put 'body bag' in quotes and would assume a coin sent in for crossover in a holder would not get cracked out and a body bag but just rejected. The 'body bag' was simply meant as a means to identify that CAC grading would not grade the coin period as noted in the prior post.
And if true would those three initials transferred all their coins to the new CAC holders?
There are many of his coins that did not sticker, so in theory if he submitted ALL of his coins to cross over to the new CAC holder, those coins without stickers now would then be in CAC holders at one grade lower!
Steve
Don't know about your 'in theory'. Do you have some confirmed information about how coins that did not sticker will be CAC graded outside of that one line in the video? That one line in the video seems thin to confirm this. This seems to be one of the many questions that is not answered at this time but will be in the future. That is how will 'C' coins be graded at CAC in general. Will there be any other distinction in the CAC grading system?
Note: I put in general in there because coin grading is subjective and some may down grade and others not. But what in general would be the CAC policy for these 'C' coins.
But the point was, if true, would this owner / major investor send their coins to the new CAC grading service? If not, then why not? And If so, then what impact would that have?
Don't forget that grading, albeit an expert opinion is still an opinion. Opinions change over time. That includes what would get a sticker 3 years ago versus now, in addition to grading standards that effectively changed what would be considered to be a copper RB versus A BN coin.
@Elcontador
I was not trying to address the different possibilities of grading. I was only responding to winesteven reply post to mine about an owner / major investor submitting their coins to CAC grading or not. That was my focus.
As far as the potential possibilities of the grading it is somewhat endless and I will stick with my prior of - not being answered a this time but will be in the future.
Funny that people are more angsty about "C" coins than "plus" coins.
The existence of plus coins has had an enormous effect on prices and registry point. People who have carefully curated and upgraded their nice coins to plus grades (sometimes for Registry points) will have less incentive to play in the new system.
This assumes CAC doesn't use plus grades, of course.
@BryceM said:
Funny that people are more angsty about "C" coins than "plus" coins.
The existence of plus coins has had an enormous effect on prices and registry point. People who have carefully curated and upgraded their nice coins to plus grades (sometimes for Registry points) will have less incentive to play in the new system.
This assumes CAC doesn't use plus grades, of course.
Not so! As many know, all of my coins eligible for a CAC have a CAC sticker, and of those, roughly 50% - 60% have a "+" grade. So while initially I was concerned, not anymore. Both John Feigenbaum (Publisher of the Greysheet) and John Albanese have addressed this concern on another coin forum, in a very positive manner. Here are their comments:
First from John Feigenbaum: As CDN/Greysheet provides the pricing for CAC web site, I can tell you that John A and I have had conversations about pricing, plus grades, etc. and we plan to add plus pricing in the next year. It's a huge task for us, mostly due to redesigning the way we store pricing data, but we're on it! We will have plus pricing for all services (that offer it).
Next from John Albanese: Winesteven- good morning and thank you for your participation on the boards. It is true that we don’t take the “+” into account when reviewing coins for stickering. I believe that the majority of cac plus coins deserve the plus and let’s face it , the market has spoken and they are certainly worth a premium. We haven’t worked out every detail with our scoring algorithm but I can assure you that cac stickered plus coins will receive a higher score in both of our registries than their non plus counterparts. As mentioned in the CDN interview, this is not a cram-down -we have no interest in harming the value of our collector’s holdings. I hope this helps. Thanks JA.
This is great news!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
Actually, they will details holder all C coins. If a coin that comes into CAC grading company raw (unlike with stickering where it comes in already graded), the first thing the graders will do is to determine if it has been cleaned, recolored, doctored, etc.... If so, it will be deemed a C coin and put into a details holder. Because CAC will use the same standards they currently do with stickering, the percentage of coins "body bagged" or details holdered at CAC will be higher than at PCGS or NGC. They will only holder nice coins.
After determining that a coin doesn't have problems, they will then assign a grade. As a grading company, CAC will not have to deal with a grade already assigned by PCGS or NGC (unless it is evaluating a cross over). Thus, a coin will not be deemed a C coin solely because CAC thinks it is over graded (because it will be evaluating a raw coin.
Like it or not, CAC tough standards should not change. CAC mission is to have all "nice" coins (regardless of grade) in CAC holders.
@Stingray63 said:
Will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Hoping for a positive difference in terms of many things mentioned above like turnaround times and fees. As for the holders it would be nice if they don't chip easily, fit in all of the plastic storage boxes, specs could be read from the top too without having to pull them from the storage boxes, and scratch resistant. A little bit of the best from all minus any issues any of us might feel exist with certain holders.
A big +1 on the holders hopefully not chipping easily. Regardless of the anti-counterfeiting and fancy NFC technology these days, the quality of holders has gone down. I don't play Jenga with my coins, so I wish they'd just do away with the stacking edge on holders. But if they insist on keeping them, at least make them sturdier. Even when packaged carefully, we'll often open a box of slabbed coins to find tiny plastic shards everywhere.
I'm just happy that I haven't spent any money getting stickers affixed to my PCGS coins - stickers that may be obsolete soon. I always thought that if CAC stickers still exist when it's time to sell, then I'll send the worthy coins for stickers. It's not time to sell yet, so I'll just wait and watch.
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
So the MS65 C becomes the MS64 A?
Does that mean the old MS64 A becomes a MS64 B, while the old MS64 B gets bumped to MS64 C, which gets bumped down to . . .
@rhedden said:
I'm just happy that I haven't spent any money getting stickers affixed to my PCGS coins - stickers that may be obsolete soon. I always thought that if CAC stickers still exist when it's time to sell, then I'll send the worthy coins for stickers. It's not time to sell yet, so I'll just wait and watch.
This is my plan. I don't have hundreds of coins like this, but enough to keep me from wanting to spend money to get them graded now. I'll just continue to enjoy them raw and worry about slabbing (or whatever) when I'm ready to sell.
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
Actually, they will details holder all C coins. If a coin that comes into CAC grading company raw (unlike with stickering where it comes in already graded), the first thing the graders will do is to determine if it has been cleaned, recolored, doctored, etc.... If so, it will be deemed a C coin and put into a details holder. Because CAC will use the same standards they currently do with stickering, the percentage of coins "body bagged" or details holdered at CAC will be higher than at PCGS or NGC. They will only holder nice coins.
After determining that a coin doesn't have problems, they will then assign a grade. As a grading company, CAC will not have to deal with a grade already assigned by PCGS or NGC (unless it is evaluating a cross over). Thus, a coin will not be deemed a C coin solely because CAC thinks it is over graded (because it will be evaluating a raw coin.
Like it or not, CAC tough standards should not change. CAC mission is to have all "nice" coins (regardless of grade) in CAC holders.
I think you’re dead wrong in stating that CAC “will details holder all C coins”.
A “C coin” isn’t synonymous with a problem coin that deserves a details-grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@thebigeng said:
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin.
They already say that many C coins are accurately graded. Seems like it would be difficult to justify giving an accurately graded coin a lower grade because it's in the lower range for the grade unless you were planning on developing a new grading system.
I hope the CAC slabs are easy to crack out. NGC's pop open for me with one or two taps with a hammer and PCGS's split apart like the red sea with a carefully placed cutter jaw, both super easy. ANACS (newer slabs) are a royal pain in the butt and usually ends up with shards and frustration for me lol.
ps. CAC if you're seeing this please make sure the label comes clean out of the slab too. ANACS is horrible with this. PCGS and NGC is great, allowing me to put the old label in the back of my LOC album in which the liberated coins live.
It is not always a hard and fast rule that competition benefits the consumer from a product or service standpoint.
Frequently the end result is lower quality, talent dilution or deteriorating service due to lower margins.
That being said both major TPGs and CAC have established great trust and confidence in the marketplace. That is not always the case in many industries/marketplaces. I have confidence the leadership of all entities mentioned will do whatever is necessary to preserve integrity.
Just read Laura's (Legend) report and I am right in line with her comments on this (but I also have just PCGS). Comment copied below and then the link.
"Legend Numismatics currently supports PCGS /CAC graded coins. We will watch how the market develops on the new CAC Grading service. Until we see otherwise, we are not changing our loyalty from PCGS/CAC. We have no doubt the new service will succeed as there was much thought and discussion with collectors and dealers by John Albanese."
Comments
I really just wanted 100 LOL, I don't care if you liked it or not, several other people did.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
“Great coins are great coins. How you identify and market them is up to you”
^this
My hope is that competition reduces turnaround times.
One thing that cac brought back into the market in my opinion was the ability to trade coins "sight unseen" with an extra level of confidence.
My experience was once a coin was cac stickered, buyers had even more confidence that the coin truly was a nice coin and had good eye appeal.
Ugly 65s that are downgraded to 64 and nice pq 64s are not specifically equal.
As John Albanese numismatics still plans to buy and sell quality coins, I would have to imagine that somehow on the label it will have some type of designation to identify whether this coin is worthy of a sticker or pq that the same "sight unseen" market could be kept up
Very interesting. Now that the rumors are confirmed, we see commentary very similar to that which went on here when CAC was launched. I would say that the highly successful history that JA has in business startups should be a prime indication of the future for his new endeavor. I have no doubt it will be fun to watch, and I believe he will be - again - very successful. Cheers, RickO
It's relevant to the type of collector that participates on this forum but not relevant to the vast majority of collectors who don't even buy graded coins. This is also a business venture, which is related to the financial aspect. It will generate excitement and interest if it succeeds in further inflating the price level if that's what you mean.
The addition of another major grading company might result in lower grading costs for many coins, as opposed to “further inflating the price level”. It might also reduce turnaround times.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I neither liked it nor disliked it.
I like CAC. I trust CAC. I respect CAC.
HOWEVER, phasing out of the stickers in favor of a grading service strikes me as a bit of a negative. One of the real advantages that I've always felt from CAC is that I have TWO sets of expert opinions. It was never that I trusted CAC more - though I did trust them. It was that I had CAC and NGC/PCGS. The odds that both sets of experts would simultaneously miss something is MUCH smaller.
I would rather have a PCGS/CAC coin than simply a CAC slabbed coin. So, frankly, I will miss the sticker more than I will rejoice in another slab company - even if they are excellent.
I posted this before but it's worth reposting.....
..
PGIP "Perfectly Graded, I Promise"
IDU "it's definitely Undergraded"
LGTM "Looks good to me"
YCL "You can't lose"
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
This is an interesting observation/question.
If he is currently buying A/B coins, what will the slabbing company do about C coins? They aren't automatic downgrades. He hates "+" grades. Maybe a "PQ" designation?
Don't know about your 'in theory'. Do you have some confirmed information about how coins that did not sticker will be CAC graded outside of that one line in the video? That one line in the video seems thin to confirm this. This seems to be one of the many questions that is not answered at this time but will be in the future. That is how will 'C' coins be graded at CAC in general. Will there be any other distinction in the CAC grading system?
Note: I put in general in there because coin grading is subjective and some may down grade and others not. But what in general would be the CAC policy for these 'C' coins.
But the point was, if true, would this owner / major investor send their coins to the new CAC grading service? If not, then why not? And If so, then what impact would that have?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Hey, that coin is missing Rick Snow's Eagle Eye Photo Seal (but that's because he only stickers Flying Eagle and Indian Cents).
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Promised email is out:
Dear CAC member,
There have been many rumors swirling about the possibility of CAC becoming a traditional grading service and I believe it is time to address them. Technically speaking, the transaction has not been completed yet. However, I am extremely confident that the transaction will close by the end of 2022. If everything goes according to plan, we anticipate a “soft opening“ in the first quarter of 2023. The new company, CAC Grading, will have the same logo and will be located in a 29,000 square ft. facility in Virginia Beach.
We will keep our Bedminster, NJ office for stickering and customer service. Your CAC member number will remain the same but there will be a new application and submitter agreement as it will be a different corporation. We will also be adding approximately 100 new partners, many you are familiar with. I will be heavily involved as the president and CEO, signing a 10-year contract and spending at least one week each month in Virginia Beach until our team of 3 world class graders morphs into an interchangeable unit. In addition, I will be available 24/7 for tiebreakers if our team can’t come to a consensus.
We’ve already spent weeks collaborating with our grading team and I’m happy to report that we have slight differences of opinion in less than 2% of the coins. CAC stickering will continue through 2023, but our goal is to drastically reduce demand with a new pricing structure. Our loyal collector members will be entitled to submit 20 coins annually at the current normal tier rate and will only be charged for coins that sticker. After the 20-coin limit, the new rate will apply. Applicants that are currently on our waiting list will qualify for this service, as well.
It is very likely stickering will continue into the year 2033, but we do expect to eventually phase out the stickering service. Ultimately, collector members will determine the longevity of this service.
We will of course introduce a user-friendly registry program featuring two new registries. Our most popular registry will include NGC and PCGS coins, stickered or not, and the new CAC-holdered coins. We realize that there are many coins, especially from 1792-1807, that are virtually impossible to collect exclusively in CAC quality, so this registry has potential for broader inclusion. However, the CAC stickered and holdered coins will score higher than the non-CAC examples. The second registry will consist solely of NGC-CAC, PCGS-CAC and CAC encapsulated coins. When you submit to us your coin information, your CAC coins will populate and be showcased on both registries.
In order to keep our backlog under control the new company, CAC grading, will continue our current waiting list policy into the foreseeable future. Our goal is to provide top-notch customer service and turnaround times and I don’t believe this could be accomplished with unfettered growth. We aim to be the most consistent premium grading service, not the largest.
As many of you know, we have suspended our economy tier and it is highly possible this may be permanent with the exception of the 20-coin limit mentioned above. If this creates a hardship, please E-mail me at AlbaneseCoins@aol.com and we will try our best to accommodate.
We understand you may have questions at this time. We are in the process of building a comprehensive FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) section regarding the transition, so please follow the link below to submit your questions or refer to the other questions and answers therein. Your questions and answers will help other members find what they need as well.
Caccoin.com//forums
We appreciate your support and business through this time of change and are working hard to clear our submission backlog.
Thank you,
The CAC Team
Checkmate.
Would YOU use the PCGS service if they started one? Would anyone? If you used the CAC service for PCGS graded coins why would you do the opposite?
If an "A or B" coin would get a sticker then they should grade and slab only A or B coins with no sticker and NOT bother with "C" quality coins.
Maybe PCGS and/or NGC might consider stickering A and B quality coins.
I wish JA success in his venture.
I will never forget in 1987 walking- thru a $2.5 1831 Proof that slabbed NGC Pr 66, and a $2.5 1827 MS that slabbed MS 66, and having lunch with JA and Mark Salzberg. They are a class act.
Having said that…
I feel fortunate dealing in expensive and high end mint errors, die trials and selective patterns, where it is not that important whether it is NGC, PCGS, CAC sticker, or NGC +, PCGS +, or NGC + the CAC sticker, PCGS + the CAC sticker, or now the upcoming CAC slab.
Obviously on ‘regular’ coins that are expensive, it could potentially make a huge difference how it is slabbed.
The interview showed JA as a class act IMO. I particularly like the idea that more modestly priced coins can more economically be graded with tougher and more consistent standards - at least that is one objective. Although I don't collect them except as type, I also like the fact that moderns will be included, casting a wider net and creating more interest in the hobby. Perhaps we will see far fewer MS70's (an impossible grade to old timers like me).
Now there will be more plastic to collect, and each will contain a coin, as a small bonus!
@Lakesammman get ready to have a new wing for CAC generation and sample slabs!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
So when a new model of a corvette (or some others) comes out, then sometimes the first one is identified and a special auction is held for it. How about the first CAC slab coin. Special label to identify and then....
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Kudo to PCGS for allowing this thread on their forum.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Hey, what happened to his "beard"?
Obviously CAC should ALSO include a free sticker on A&B coins and not on C coins. That will end that worry. Do I have to solve all the worlds problems?
CAC certainly has brand recognition after 15 years in business.
Could be a win win for all TPG's.
I see a lot of confusion on this board as to whether a "c" coin will be graded by CAC. The answer is, it depends on the reason why the coin was labeled a "c" coin. An example will help.
Many years ago I took a beautiful original 1815 capped bust quarter graded PC50 to CAC. It didn't sticker. I asked JA why not. He said he saw the coin more as an EF 45 and if the coin were in a PC 45 holder, he would sticker it and consider it an "A" coin. In this case, it was technical grade, as opposed to problems with the coin, which was the reason for the coin not stickering. With the new CAC grading company, this coin would be put into an XF 45 holder.
Other coins do not sticker because they have problems, even though they satisfy the technical requirements for a grade. If a coin has been cleaned, repaired, excessively dipped, recolored, has excessive marks or rim bumps, scratches or hairlines, or otherwise "doctored", the coin will be a C coin no matter what the grade and will not be stickered by CAC, or straight graded by the new CAC grading company. Most of the coins that CAC sees that don't sticker fall into this category.
Hope this helps.
@beboplawyer -I sure hope your right about them not slabbing/straight grading the "C" coins that have issues.
Will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Hoping for a positive difference in terms of many things mentioned above like turnaround times and fees. As for the holders it would be nice if they don't chip easily, fit in all of the plastic storage boxes, specs could be read from the top too without having to pull them from the storage boxes, and scratch resistant. A little bit of the best from all minus any issues any of us might feel exist with certain holders.
Pocket Change Inspector
There's very little liability placing a bumper sticker on a car then actually manufacturing one. Big difference starting a new grading service in the 1980's when you're still a young whippersnapper instead of nearing retirement age. They might be better off just sticking to the sticker business which seems way less stressful and just as financially rewarding.
Once you reach a certain point in life it's about working smarter not harder. My local mechanic no longer does oil changes or rotates tires as the $20 profit isn't worth the wear and tear on his employees all aged 50-60 when they make thousands of dollars rebuilding an engine or transmission. CAC giving up the ability and profitability to purchase and resell coins they've stickered by grading coins seems much like a Jiffy Lube venture.
I like it.
The CAC folks can now have their own grading company & forum.
Bye
My Saint Set
What they will do with C coins is easy. They will get the next grade down and it will become an A coin. I absolutely welcome the competition and I hope NGC and PCGS will also..
It will be interesting how it shakes out and how other TPG’s respond and the impact on player business decisions. How will auctions be impacted?
His video addresses how C coins will be treated and I suggest you take a look if you have not seen it. I plan to view it again especially that part.
If my understanding of his video is correct only A or B coins will get his TPG grade say 65. C coins would get 64. So no need stickers on his CAC TPG graded coins. They would continue to sticker non CAC TPG coins that are A or B. And CPG for CAC would be consistent for MV for both his graded coins and coins of other TPG he stickered. As an x college accounting instructor I like the consistency of this. Beyond that it’s still a while off.
Don't forget that grading, albeit an expert opinion is still an opinion. Opinions change over time. That includes what would get a sticker 3 years ago versus now, in addition to grading standards that effectively changed what would be considered to be a copper RB versus A BN coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I don't think this is always the case. A low luster or poorly struck coin that gets bumped down 1 grade doesn't change the fact of what it is, or become an A coin in that lower grade. In some cases it might, such as an extra nick here or there, but not always. Very subjective coin to coin, not universal.
Focusing on the last of your comment with:
"If a coin has been cleaned, repaired, excessively dipped, recolored, has excessive marks or rim bumps, scratches or hairlines, or otherwise "doctored", the coin will be a C coin no matter what the grade and will not be stickered by CAC, or straight graded by the new CAC grading company. Most of the coins that CAC sees that don't sticker fall into this category."
I hope this is not the case. I say this because if about 40% of coins have received a CAC sticker and the other 60% that have not are mostly due to the above, then this would imply that CAC grading would 'body bag' most of the coins. This assuming that the coins sent for the CAC grading company are similar in quality to the coins that have been sent to the CAC sticker company.
Note: I put 'body bag' in quotes and would assume a coin sent in for crossover in a holder would not get cracked out and a body bag but just rejected. The 'body bag' was simply meant as a means to identify that CAC grading would not grade the coin period as noted in the prior post.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
@Elcontador
I was not trying to address the different possibilities of grading. I was only responding to winesteven reply post to mine about an owner / major investor submitting their coins to CAC grading or not. That was my focus.
As far as the potential possibilities of the grading it is somewhat endless and I will stick with my prior of - not being answered a this time but will be in the future.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Funny that people are more angsty about "C" coins than "plus" coins.
The existence of plus coins has had an enormous effect on prices and registry point. People who have carefully curated and upgraded their nice coins to plus grades (sometimes for Registry points) will have less incentive to play in the new system.
This assumes CAC doesn't use plus grades, of course.
Not so! As many know, all of my coins eligible for a CAC have a CAC sticker, and of those, roughly 50% - 60% have a "+" grade. So while initially I was concerned, not anymore. Both John Feigenbaum (Publisher of the Greysheet) and John Albanese have addressed this concern on another coin forum, in a very positive manner. Here are their comments:
First from John Feigenbaum: As CDN/Greysheet provides the pricing for CAC web site, I can tell you that John A and I have had conversations about pricing, plus grades, etc. and we plan to add plus pricing in the next year. It's a huge task for us, mostly due to redesigning the way we store pricing data, but we're on it! We will have plus pricing for all services (that offer it).
Next from John Albanese: Winesteven- good morning and thank you for your participation on the boards. It is true that we don’t take the “+” into account when reviewing coins for stickering. I believe that the majority of cac plus coins deserve the plus and let’s face it , the market has spoken and they are certainly worth a premium. We haven’t worked out every detail with our scoring algorithm but I can assure you that cac stickered plus coins will receive a higher score in both of our registries than their non plus counterparts. As mentioned in the CDN interview, this is not a cram-down -we have no interest in harming the value of our collector’s holdings. I hope this helps. Thanks JA.
This is great news!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Actually, they will details holder all C coins. If a coin that comes into CAC grading company raw (unlike with stickering where it comes in already graded), the first thing the graders will do is to determine if it has been cleaned, recolored, doctored, etc.... If so, it will be deemed a C coin and put into a details holder. Because CAC will use the same standards they currently do with stickering, the percentage of coins "body bagged" or details holdered at CAC will be higher than at PCGS or NGC. They will only holder nice coins.
After determining that a coin doesn't have problems, they will then assign a grade. As a grading company, CAC will not have to deal with a grade already assigned by PCGS or NGC (unless it is evaluating a cross over). Thus, a coin will not be deemed a C coin solely because CAC thinks it is over graded (because it will be evaluating a raw coin.
Like it or not, CAC tough standards should not change. CAC mission is to have all "nice" coins (regardless of grade) in CAC holders.
A big +1 on the holders hopefully not chipping easily. Regardless of the anti-counterfeiting and fancy NFC technology these days, the quality of holders has gone down. I don't play Jenga with my coins, so I wish they'd just do away with the stacking edge on holders. But if they insist on keeping them, at least make them sturdier. Even when packaged carefully, we'll often open a box of slabbed coins to find tiny plastic shards everywhere.
I'm just happy that I haven't spent any money getting stickers affixed to my PCGS coins - stickers that may be obsolete soon. I always thought that if CAC stickers still exist when it's time to sell, then I'll send the worthy coins for stickers. It's not time to sell yet, so I'll just wait and watch.
So the MS65 C becomes the MS64 A?
Does that mean the old MS64 A becomes a MS64 B, while the old MS64 B gets bumped to MS64 C, which gets bumped down to . . .
🤪
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
This is my plan. I don't have hundreds of coins like this, but enough to keep me from wanting to spend money to get them graded now. I'll just continue to enjoy them raw and worry about slabbing (or whatever) when I'm ready to sell.
I think you’re dead wrong in stating that CAC “will details holder all C coins”.
A “C coin” isn’t synonymous with a problem coin that deserves a details-grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Didn't he already start a grading company, and an approval service to keep them in check ?
Have fun with your coins.
If their plan is to only grade/slab strictly original coins, it will be an awesome service.
They already say that many C coins are accurately graded. Seems like it would be difficult to justify giving an accurately graded coin a lower grade because it's in the lower range for the grade unless you were planning on developing a new grading system.
I hope the CAC slabs are easy to crack out. NGC's pop open for me with one or two taps with a hammer and PCGS's split apart like the red sea with a carefully placed cutter jaw, both super easy. ANACS (newer slabs) are a royal pain in the butt and usually ends up with shards and frustration for me lol.
ps. CAC if you're seeing this please make sure the label comes clean out of the slab too. ANACS is horrible with this. PCGS and NGC is great, allowing me to put the old label in the back of my LOC album in which the liberated coins live.
It is not always a hard and fast rule that competition benefits the consumer from a product or service standpoint.
Frequently the end result is lower quality, talent dilution or deteriorating service due to lower margins.
That being said both major TPGs and CAC have established great trust and confidence in the marketplace. That is not always the case in many industries/marketplaces. I have confidence the leadership of all entities mentioned will do whatever is necessary to preserve integrity.
Just read Laura's (Legend) report and I am right in line with her comments on this (but I also have just PCGS). Comment copied below and then the link.
"Legend Numismatics currently supports PCGS /CAC graded coins. We will watch how the market develops on the new CAC Grading service. Until we see otherwise, we are not changing our loyalty from PCGS/CAC. We have no doubt the new service will succeed as there was much thought and discussion with collectors and dealers by John Albanese."
https://www.legendnumismatics.com/market_reports/the-train-is-slowing/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023