CoinWorld - CAC Grading Service

Cladiator

@pcgscacgold said:

@csdot said:

@pcgscacgold said:

@Cladiator said:
"We will be phasing out the stickers over time."

Watch the premiums on CAC stickered PCGS and NGC slabs take off.

I'm thinking the plus graded coins for sure since CAC ignores plus grades. They also don't sticker doctored gold coins so that will be interesting to watch. Everyone is discussion a coin going down a grade to get a CAC slab but there are a lot of gold coins out there that JA will not slab (even though PCGS and NGC do).

Can you define “doctored gold coins” so we know what you mean?

Many gold coins do not sticker with JA because of "things" people have done. It's not the grade that is off, it is the originality.
I am not a doctor, so I will others explain what people do.

Like putty? I recall a thread somewhat recently of a PCGS holdered gold coin that was sent in for conservation, or what ever they call it, to have putty removed. If I remember right the consensus was that the removal improved the appearance of the coin.

SIowhand

Finally.

csdot

I understand the putty issue. That is a legit problem, and one most of us can readily see and avoid.

I just wanted to get an understanding whether there is a suspicion (or even a presumption) by some of doctoring for non-stickered gold coins? I would hope not, as I buy the coins that appeal to me, and some are stickered and some are not.

hfjacinto

I’m going to start a new service RNC (really nice coin) sticker company. I like your coin I put a red sticker on it! Heck if the coin is really really nice you get a purple sticker! I'll even RNC a CAC coin

spyglassdesign

It will be interesting to see how well they qc grades and how consistent they are... Will they reach the pinnacle of tpg or end up in a second tier like ANACS or many of the others.

I personally suspect they have the talent to be a tpg considering they are already well respected in the field.

lilolme

Coinworld article had:
"CAC Grading Service will be based in Virginia Beach, Virginia,..."

Is this telling anything?

P0CKETCHANGE

@lilolme said:
Coinworld article had:
"CAC Grading Service will be based in Virginia Beach, Virginia,..."

Is this telling anything?

First thing that comes to mind is that DLRC is headquartered there.

justindan

I just cracked out all my coins and threw the holders away. Here I come new slabs!

lilolme

@P0CKETCHANGE said:

@lilolme said:
Coinworld article had:
"CAC Grading Service will be based in Virginia Beach, Virginia,..."

Is this telling anything?

First thing that comes to mind is that DLRC is headquartered there.

Yes and whom is involved with them?

coinbuf

@Boosibri said:
This thread will last for about 15 more minutes

Hope you didn't take any bets on this.

FrankH

More and more every day, I am falling in love with darkside.

Weiss

I'm a huge fan of CAC's current service. In large part because I really like early slabs. Guess what? I'm a collector. Early slabs are part of our hobby's history, a history fast coming up on a half-century.

We all know that early slabs have been cracked out en masse. And there are fewer and fewer premium quality coins in the earliest PCGS and NGC slabs, because cracking those coins out means a potentially huge windfall for their owners.

If CAC does in fact phase out its stickering in favor of actual slabbing, then there is no widely accepted and even respected 3rd party to judge coins in these early slabs.

With no stickers, there is no incentive to keep quality coins in early slabs. Even the very finest coins in early slabs will be cracked out and submitted for new slabbing.

The premium quality coins in early slabs don't stand a chance. It'll be a blood bath. And once that history is gone, it's gone.

I'm reminding myself that this is PCGS's board and we all need to play by their rules and respect their positions on all TPGs.

MasonG

"Cancer of the hobby" = "Losing your mind when somebody tries something different"

If you don't like a new business, don't use them. Problem solved.

ms71

@MasonG said:
"Cancer of the hobby" = "Losing your mind when somebody tries something different"

If you don't like a new business, don't use them. Problem solved.

Yup, the market will make the judgement. Let the squabbling begin.

tcollects

This is great news. There's a huge demand. Maybe turnaround times will be faster across the board.

lilolme

@MasonG said:
"Cancer of the hobby" = "Losing your mind when somebody tries something different"

If you don't like a new business, don't use them. Problem solved.

Agree, however in the forum if one wants to express an opinion of like or dislike I don't see anything wrong with that. Just don't get to wound up with it.

It is interesting reading through some comments on what the grading might do or not. Many are some of the same things I heard discussed at the ANA. Another was on older classic coins and CAC apparent stricter requirements on rub/friction. So would one trade a MS62 with market acceptable rub for a new CAC 58 if CAC is stricter in this requirement. How will pricing of these work out in the market. Should be interesting to watch it develop on this and many others that have been mentioned.

Catbert

JA interview regarding new business:

https://youtu.be/hcd36sPMDi4

dunkleosteus430

@Starpine said:
Ever notice none of these entities invest one second or dollar educating collectors? They prey on the ignorant, weak and lazy!

Who do you think made this forum? Who do you think made PCGS CoinFacts or the PCGS seminars/webinars? CU and other companies (NGC, CAC, etc.) do lots to educate collectors.

MasonG

@lilolme said:

@MasonG said:
"Cancer of the hobby" = "Losing your mind when somebody tries something different"

If you don't like a new business, don't use them. Problem solved.

Agree, however in the forum if one wants to express an opinion of like or dislike I don't see anything wrong with that. Just don't get to wound up with it.

If someone says they don't like the idea, sure. "Cancer of the hobby" seems a bit hysterical when it comes to expressing opinions if you ask me. And that's my opinion.

lilolme

@MasonG said:

@lilolme said:

@MasonG said:
"Cancer of the hobby" = "Losing your mind when somebody tries something different"

If you don't like a new business, don't use them. Problem solved.

Agree, however in the forum if one wants to express an opinion of like or dislike I don't see anything wrong with that. Just don't get to wound up with it.

If someone says they don't like the idea, sure. "Cancer of the hobby" seems a bit hysterical when it comes to expressing opinions if you ask me. And that's my opinion.

That is why I said Agree...... just don't get to wound up with it. (like that example)

@Catbert
Good video thanks. Will be interesting to watch it develop.

Veep

An entrepreneur sees market demand, believes he can build a better mousetrap and takes action. It’s a story as old as time.

NumisOxide

@P0CKETCHANGE said:

@lilolme said:
Coinworld article had:
"CAC Grading Service will be based in Virginia Beach, Virginia,..."

Is this telling anything?

First thing that comes to mind is that DLRC is headquartered there.

Ah maybe they will use the PCI-DGS style holder?!

BryceM

Interesting.

Their timing is perfect. I can’t think of a better time to launch this in the last 10 or 15 years.

JA has already demonstrated that he knows how to start and run a successful grading service. This is at least his 4th one.

The market will sort it out.

Great coins are great coins. How you identify and market them is up to you,

Competition, especially quality competition, ultimately benefits the consumer. In our case this will be hobbyists and dealers. People whined about the influx of Asian cars in my day, but their existence really forced the US auto makers to up their game. Quality went up and price went down.

There’s an enormous zone between coins they sticker and “no-grade” coins. How they deal with this will be interesting.

I’m waiting to see a coin in their holder with a gold sticker. That might break the internet.

I can live without “plus” grades. I wonder if they can. It might be a bit hard to compete in certain series in certain grade ranges if they don’t.

AlanSki

I want a small anacs style holder that looks like the original black NGC slab but with a modernized label.

Cougar1978

I would hope whatever holder they design would fit in a PCGS or NGC box unless a universal slab storage box designed.

We will see any impact when they tee the ball off. It will make my tally of number of coins by TPG on ebay interesting.

What I am scratching my head about is how will properly graded C coins be treated by CAC. A&B get sticker C doesn’t? Would you as a seller be cool to that? “Why that one doesn’t have a sticker Joe? It’s because they think it’s a C coin. Ok do you want me to take it off the stack of stuff your buying? Oh ok.” (Dealer putting it back in display case).

hfjacinto

I think this new CAC tpg should grade 1 to 100. The tag line:

“Of course are coins are better they go to 100 while the other guys only go to 70. Whats better an 85 or a 70?”

“Get the CAC advantage are grades are always higher!”

golden

Holy Crap!

WCC

@hfjacinto said:
I think this new CAC tpg should grade 1 to 100. The tag line:

No thanks.

I don't collect any US coinage and wouldn't care if it its only limited to US coinage, but I also don't believe it would. If a new CAC service could get away with it, I'd expect PCGS and NGC to follow. That way, they could potentially get every coin of meaningful value regraded.

For the primary coins I collect, I don't even like the Sheldon scale. I'd prefer the NGC Ancients approach.

Catbert

In The video posted JA indicated that Sheldon scale will be used.

yosclimber

@Catbert said:
JA interview regarding new business:

https://youtu.be/hcd36sPMDi4

JA possibly answers one of our questions at 12:05 in this video.

If a [dark] coin is a MS-65 "C", aka "red sticker",
in the new grading service it will go into a MS-64 holder.

[Edited:] After listening more carefully, I think he was talking about dark coins.
Here's exactly what was said at that part of the video:

John Feigenbaum (11:40):
Good for you.
You were famously liked dark proof coins, and ___ coins, for that matter.

John Albanese:
Well, I like original coins.
It's not 'cause like I like coins that are dark.
I do prefer them being original and virgin,
as opposed to being cleaned; being dipped.

John Feigenbaum:
You've liked them a little more than the market.

John Albanese:
Right. So now I'm just putting red stickers on them and that's it.
The coin's a 65, it's a 65 C, and in the new CAC it will get a 64 grade, it's as simple as that.
I still feel like it's the wrong thing to do, but like I said, I've been outvoted, right?
The market has spoken.

Boosibri

It will be interesting to see what they do with the market acceptable coins that are gradeable, but a C coin at nearly any grade. Dipped out, processed, etc. one grade down from their technical grade or have a higher standard and body bag them. I hope the latter.

MFeld

@Boosibri said:
It will be interesting to see what they do with the market acceptable coins that are gradeable, but a C coin at nearly any grade. Dipped out, processed, etc. one grade down from their technical grade or have a higher standard and body bag them. I hope the latter.

Would you settle for details-grades, as opposed to body-bags?😉

MasonG

@yosclimber said:
JA answers one of our questions at 12:05 in this video.

If a coin is a MS-65 "C", aka "red sticker",
in the new grading service it will go into a MS-64 holder.

That doesn't really solve any problems. If only A & B coins are graded "MS X" and C coins are graded "MS X-1", when you're done, there are still going to be coins that grade in the bottom third of the "MS X" grade. It also conflicts with their current position on "C" coins:

"If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?"

"Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade. Unfortunately, it is an inescapable reality that many are at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade."

Under the scenario above:

If a coin is a MS-65 "C", aka "red sticker", in the new grading service it will go into a MS-64 holder.

there will still be coins at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade

Broadstruck

@lilolme said:
Coinworld article had:
"CAC Grading Service will be based in Virginia Beach, Virginia,..."

Is this telling anything?

Yeah... CAC will be using the old PCI / Dominion Grading Service slabs

Walkerlover

@Cladiator said:
"We will be phasing out the stickers over time."

Watch the premiums on CAC stickered PCGS and NGC slabs take off.

I don’t see why green CAC would increase much as there are a good supply around. I think gold stickers will as they become true collectible items like the rare third party NGC black holders for example.

lermish

Separate from the grading service, I'm curious how this will look.

CAC's graders and people are a tremendous advantage. And JA said all the right things about existing holders and why he is starting this but was explicit that he is relying on his tech and business people for the non-numismatic portion of the business. The hard logistics are difficult enough to scale, the IT portion is going to be more difficult.

Currently, PCGS is head and shoulders and torso above any of the competitors (in my opinion) in terms of tech, registry set, apps, imaging, and holder quality. Looking at CAC's existing, public-facing IT, I don't think CAC has a chance to compete in those arenas. Granted, those are secondary to the coins, but they are still important considerations to a lot of us.

I know JA said they are well capitalized but it will take a LOT of money to replicate those digital assets. Probably well into 8 figures (over time). I honestly don't know how much they need to scale for that to make business sense. So do they do the best they can with limited resources but lag behind in the outcome for the user? Or truly pour money into it? Or focus on the coin portion which only limits the upside of the new business?

I have no forecasts, just really curious about how it will turnout. I guess we'll see!

DelawareDoons

@lermish said:
Separate from the grading service, I'm curious how this will look.

CAC's graders and people are a tremendous advantage. And JA said all the right things about existing holders and why he is starting this but was explicit that he is relying on his tech and business people for the non-numismatic portion of the business. The hard logistics are difficult enough to scale, the IT portion is going to be more difficult.

Currently, PCGS is head and shoulders and torso above any of the competitors (in my opinion) in terms of tech, registry set, apps, imaging, and holder quality. Looking at CAC's existing, public-facing IT, I don't think CAC has a chance to compete in those arenas. Granted, those are secondary to the coins, but they are still important considerations to a lot of us.

I know JA said they are well capitalized but it will take a LOT of money to replicate those digital assets. Probably well into 8 figures (over time). I honestly don't know how much they need to scale for that to make business sense. So do they do the best they can with limited resources but lag behind in the outcome for the user? Or truly pour money into it? Or focus on the coin portion which only limits the upside of the new business?

I have no forecasts, just really curious about how it will turnout. I guess we'll see!

There's a three initial name that I keep hearing tossed around with ties to Virginia Beach that should assure you they are VERY well capitalized... If it's true.

I, for one, hope stickers keep on. I love them and am officially never selling my beans.

csdot

On a positive note, maybe this will bring more excitement and interest to the hobby.

lilolme

@DelawareDoons said:

@lermish said:
Separate from the grading service, I'm curious how this will look.

CAC's graders and people are a tremendous advantage. And JA said all the right things about existing holders and why he is starting this but was explicit that he is relying on his tech and business people for the non-numismatic portion of the business. The hard logistics are difficult enough to scale, the IT portion is going to be more difficult.

Currently, PCGS is head and shoulders and torso above any of the competitors (in my opinion) in terms of tech, registry set, apps, imaging, and holder quality. Looking at CAC's existing, public-facing IT, I don't think CAC has a chance to compete in those arenas. Granted, those are secondary to the coins, but they are still important considerations to a lot of us.

I know JA said they are well capitalized but it will take a LOT of money to replicate those digital assets. Probably well into 8 figures (over time). I honestly don't know how much they need to scale for that to make business sense. So do they do the best they can with limited resources but lag behind in the outcome for the user? Or truly pour money into it? Or focus on the coin portion which only limits the upside of the new business?

I have no forecasts, just really curious about how it will turnout. I guess we'll see!

There's a three initial name that I keep hearing tossed around with ties to Virginia Beach that should assure you they are VERY well capitalized... If it's true.

And if true would those three initials transferred all their coins to the new CAC holders?

winesteven

@lilolme said:

And if true would those three initials transferred all their coins to the new CAC holders?

There are many of his coins that did not sticker, so in theory if he submitted ALL of his coins to cross over to the new CAC holder, those coins without stickers now would then be in CAC holders at one grade lower!

Steve

yosclimber

Note: I listened more carefully to what was said in the video and transcribed that part into my prior post.
I think John Albanese was talking about a dark coin that he personally grades as a MS-65 C,
but apparently the market grades as a MS-64, so CAC will grade such a coin as a MS-64.
So it is more about changing his grading standards for dark coins, rather than what happens to all C coins.

GRANDAM

@PerryHall said:

@cmerlo1 said:
Up next: The announcement of a new company to review and sticker CAC-graded coins.

It would be funny if PCGS would establish a service to review and sticker those CAC slabbed coins that they deem worthy of a PCGS sticker.

Yes,,,, and they should publish the rejected cert numbers,,,,,,,,,

ElmerFusterpuck

The timeout troll above had this line "Okay....have to use a different account from now on. Truth = banned every time! lol!"

Changed it to "Okay....have to use a different account from now on. Trolling BS = banned every time! lol!" Think that will get you a green sticker approval.

joebb21

How about this scenario-

A dark toned or ugly looking barber quarter comes in. Technically it's a pr65, but because it's ugly- it's placed in a pr64 slab.

This coin is still ugly looking. Undergraded perhaps but still ugly. In the old world it would never sticker even as a pr63.

As of now I tell John hey I have a cac stickered pr64 barber- and John says "well I've seen it and stickered it so it must be a nice 64" and he makes an offer and buys it. Now, with the above, I say I have a pr64 barber quarter- which while technically is correct- does not mean it's a nice quality piece as the cac sticker has come to represent.

How can the same sight unseen market work for nice pq coins?

JohnF

@yosclimber said:
Note: I listened more carefully to what was said in the video and transcribed that part into my prior post.
I think John Albanese was talking about a dark coin that he personally grades as a MS-65 C,
but apparently the market grades as a MS-64, so CAC will grade such a coin as a MS-64.
So it is more about changing his grading standards for dark coins, rather than what happens to all C coins.

My interpretation of this part of the conversation was directly specifically at the fact (and he and I have discussed this numerous times over the years) that John loves originally toned coins, even if they are darkly toned. The market doesn't appreciate darkly toned Seated dimes, for example, and these are less desirable than a lightly toned coin of the same date. Over the years, CAC adjusted their perspective to respect this market response, and now a darkly toned coin is not likely to get a sticker... and in the new service, will get a point deduction for the eye appeal. That was my takeaway. He may expand on this topic later.

John

BLUEJAYWAY

It is most fortunate that there are 26 letters in the alphabet. What with all these 3 and 4 letter initialisms.

tcollects

I'd like to see the smaller old ANACS holders again. More coins in the safe deposit box.

I also imagine coins that are green beaned now would be the same grade under the new CAC and gold beans would be a grade higher. That keeps it simple. CAC would be tough on coins, so the premium would still be there.

jmlanzaf

@hfjacinto said:
I’m going to start a new service RNC (really nice coin) sticker company. I like your coin I put a red sticker on it! Heck if the coin is really really nice you get a purple sticker! I'll even RNC a CAC coin

If you had the market cachet of JA that would work. If not, the market will just laugh at your arrogance or ignorance.

[Yes, I know it is supposed to be a joke. But it is the 132nd time someone has made this joke in a CAC thread. ]

jmlanzaf

@BLUEJAYWAY said:
It is most fortunate that there are 26 letters in the alphabet. What with all these 3 and 4 letter initialisms.

No law against using 5 (ANACS)

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@SanctionII said:
I wonder how many collectors will chose to simply ignore grading companies and collect raw coins and fill albums?

I suspect most already do.

Yes, most collections are still raw.

Saw $100k classic gold collection come in this week. It had 2 slabbed coins, and one was a mongrel company. Most cheaper collections have zero coins.

I even saw a collection of S VDB cents a year it so ago. The guy had accumulated about 50. More than half were raw - all of which slabbed later by the dealer, by the way.