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ifthevamzarockin
Posts: 8,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just wanted to post some of my observations & opinions. This is just my 2 cents. 
Many people would say that's all my opinions are worth. 
Please be advised my crystal ball and my time machine are both broken and I can't go back to 1909 to say any of this is fact.
I have looked at many online images over the last 6 months but clearly I have not seen every 1909 cent ever minted.
I left the full coin photos size large so if you right click and open in a new tab you should be able to get a good look.
There appears to be 2 different main reverse designs used in 1909 and some had a VDB added.
The two designs have a slightly different N in United, one has shallow cut valleys and one has a deeper cut valley.
The deeper cut N design is not just the N in United you can see slight changes with all the lettering in USA.
The height of the letters and placement of the VDB and dots can be in different places for Type 1 & 2.
There are several reasons they may have changed the design but I was not there so I can't tell you why.
For sake of this discussion I have decided to name them Type 1 and Type 2.
The shallow N is the Type 1 reverse and the deep N is the Type 2 reverse.
The usage of the reverse dies appears to be as listed
1909 Proof Type 1 only
1909 VBD Proof Type 1 only
1909 S VDB Type 1 only
1909 S Type 1 & Type 2
1909 P VDB Type 1 & Type 2
1909 P Type 1 & Type 2
.
1909 Proof
1909 VDB Proof
1909 S VDB
1909 S Type 1
1909 S Type 2
1909 P VDB Type 1
1909 P VDB Type 2
1909 P Type 1
1909 P Type 2
It would appear that the proof dies and the Type 1 reverse were the first dies/design produced.
The VDB was the first design but because of public outcry it was removed shortly after this issue debuted.
The VDB reverse can be found with both Type 1 & Type 2 design so it would seem the change came early in production.
It would appear the VDB Type 1 reverse dies would have been the first design to be sent to San Francisco.
Good chance they got dies early in production and the Type 2 reverse may not have even been made yet.
If there were only 4 obverse dies for the S VDB the amount of reverse dies needed would not be a large number.
Good chance the small mintage of 484,000 could have been produced fairly quick.
The combination of those factors may explain why the S VDB is a Type 1 reverse only.
If you have a 1909 S VDB with a Type 2 reverse there is a good chance it is a counterfeit or alteration and needs to be graded.
The Type 1 reverse on the S VDB should not be used as the main diagnostic feature.
All other known diagnostics should be checked such as mint mark position, position of the VDB etc.
It can be hard to authenticate a 1909 S VDB from poor online images, the Type 1 reverse is fairly easy to spot.
A genuine Type 1 P VDB could have an added mint mark or a Type 1 S could have an added VDB.
If you have a 1909 S VDB that the mint mark position doesn't match one of the 4 known positions there is a very remote chance you have made a discovery but TPG authentication would be a must. There is a 99% chance you have a problem.
If you have a 1909 S VDB with a Type 2 reverse there is a very remote chance you have made a discovery but TPG authentication would be a must. There is a 99% chance you have a problem.
Comments
Yes, this is a known diagnostic.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Nice summary, thanks!
Collector, occasional seller
Excellent!
Thank you "ifthevamzarockin" for all the time it took you to retrieve, sort, and present this information! I know it had to have taken HOURS of work to put that OP together
With some things that showed up in a few of the most recent 09SVDB threads got me to searching online for definitive as possible information about the known total of obverse die's that were used in the minting of the 09SVDB. settling on what most collectors would feel to be the 'Gold Standard' for this type of information so, its seems the information found on PCGS's & NGC's web site only refer to 4 different obverse dies.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Well done!
@ifthevamzarockin.... Thank you for the detailed analysis and excellent pictures. Cheers, RickO
I just saw an important detail with the type 1 and type 2 09-VDB's
Look at the designers initials on both, there is one that has a much closer to the same details as a genuine 09SVDB!
That means that one could more likely pass an altered (added "S") than the other one.
And more important is the one that has the closer matched VDB is what we're referring to as Type 1 with the shallow valley "N"
Of course this applies to the 09-S, type 1 would be more likely to be passed of by adding VDB to it than adding it to the Type 2
So, the font style used in the "N" in UNITED is shaping up to being a very important factory in spotting fakes especially the altered variety!!!
Just Amazing!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Yes, the P mint VDB looks very close to the svdb.
This is a cropped photo of the one shown above.
Opps wrong PHOTOS
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Let me try this again with the correct photo's.
What this means is that there is two varieties (Type 1 & Type 2) of the Philly minted 09-VDB and I've only got ONE OF THEM!
So, that means the person that started this thread is knee deep in field cookies!
Because NOW I have to get my collection out, figure out which one of these I've got and go shopping for it missing counterpart that I didn't know existed
Then I have to move nearly 100 coins over one slot to make room for this missing artifact.
So, I'll have to take the recourse to this to PM's because the the content therein will be of mature rating
I searched ebay for a first variety (type 1) and I found these images of a RAW one.
Its haunting looking a the reverse image of this coin, it looks to much like the back of an 09SVDB!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Excellent information/presentation........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 I look forward to seeing your photos.
I would like some of the 1909 Lincoln experts to weigh in here on these claims.....
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
I know that this thread wasn't started before a LOT of research had been done, contacts to a counterfeit detection expert was made, and a lot of material (information) was collected. BUT! I get that doesn't cover everything KNOWN about these coins either so, I'm all in on building onto this thread any and ALL definitive information!
I'm hoping that after the Holiday's this thread will pick collective steam (get more attention).
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I found this interesting story from David Hall that I would like to share with you all:
A few years ago, as a 12 year old, my son was collecting Lincoln cents. We'd go to the Saturday bid board at the local coin shop and he'd go to the Long Beach coin show and buy a few coins. He was buying circulated coins and trying to get one of every date. He would always look at 1909-S VDBs, but he couldn't afford one. One day he made the following statement, "Dad, I'd eat worms for an S VDB." That about says it all, doesn't it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
>
What a great post and a very informative one also.
The pictures are the best that I have seen in a long time.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
@WAYNEAS Thank you for the reply!
The pictures are the best that I have seen in a long time.
Credit goes to our host and CoinFacts.
As an aside, I have two 1909 V.D.B. Double Die Obverse pieces. They are both FS-1101. One is a certified ANACS AU 50. The other is a cherry pick I made at a show awhile back. I think it's AU 55 or so, a little nicer than my ANACS 50. Both pieces are reverse Type 2 (deep valley 'N').
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
A little over a year ago a new member started posting quite a few questionable 1909 S vdb cents.
He took a little heat over a few posts but would not give up, some of the coins appeared to be fakes and some genuine.
It would have been easy for this new member to give up and quit posting, I'm glad he stuck around.
At first I did not pay much attention and would post or help if I could.
I started noticing that he had done some research because of a counterfeit purchase so I started paying attention more.
I was a skeptic and wasn't sure the whole N thing was valid so I started doing some research and looking at many coins.
It's a tough crowd here at times and I didn't want to make an even bigger fool of myself than I do in some of my posts.
I have done enough research that I feel comfortable posting the information I did and getting some feedback from members.
This also shows how new members can make great contributions to the forum.
Some credit also needs to go to him for this post.
To @MarkW63
I'm not very happy with you sending me down this rabbit hole but it's nice to have you as a member here.
A little side note:
He did not ask for help and did not know I was researching the info further. When I would see his threads pop up most of the time I would jump in to help. Sometimes I would just let it go to see how he handled it and so he could get his "sea legs" here on the forum. We have PM'd back and forth a few times on a couple of fakes that were hard to get removed.
Wow! lots of stuff about lots of other coins.
I need to reel this in a bit for me if no one else.
Mr.1874's 09SVDB.
Okay its got a type 2 (as we're calling it) reverse!
But it still don't have a known type of 09SVDB obverse?
So, what does it have that's KNOWN? that's really all we have, I mean the 09SVDB has been under the microscope for over 100 years now.
Now, what do we know about his coin?
The mint mark location is totally wrong for any known 09SVDB example!
The mint mark is in a known to be correct location for the 09-S (No VDB), anything else goes against a 100 year narrative.
So, the obverse is wrong. (in all the current day information about the 09SVDB, that is a deal breaker in itself)
So, flipping his coin over we see the "N" in the word UNITED that goes against an authenticity marker.
That in total is two strikes for the coin.
Now, with the current resolution of the images of the coin, we don't have enough details of say the VDB to a key aspect of authenticity (another marker)
So far no one here has indicated it as a "Counterfeit" the question is!
Is it more likely to be an altered 09-S than it is an anomaly of an unknown example of a 09SVDB after over 100years?
How did this anomaly make it through PCGS services?
Is it possible that a guy working at the mint playing around on his lunch break struck this oddity with odd & end die pieces just laying around at the mint?
Its not impossible to be _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _? but that only leads to more uncertainty about the coin???
I would like nothing better than the coin to be genuine, and if it were mine and I had owned for a good while with the belief it was genuine I'd be hard pressed to have a mine change too, but its hard to continue a debate without all the cards being on the table (better resolution images, would help)
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
He said he will be adding more photos, it's best to wait until we can see the coin better before saying much.
@ifthevamzarockin
I knew that you were talking about @MarkW63 before you mentioned him in your thread.
He is very deserving of the accolades you have bestowed upon him.
I too have followed his newbie threads from the start and his expertise that he now uses in the present.
He has taught me a lot on (t)his subject.
He has become a knowledgeable source to be used.
He asked me my thoughts on SVDB counterfeits in the beginning and now
I ask him.
Yes, there are many here who like to push buttons but that goes without saying. lol
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Well we're waiting......... remember, this started a week ago on the other S-VDB thread and still no new pictures. At least a whole picture of the slab would be a start.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@Steven59 It's the Holidays.... I'm sure some folks have better thing to do.
Sorry, I thought he was on earlier today..........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Any idea which style is rarer for each coin, 1909, 1909 VDB or 1909-S?
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
He mentioned above "Pennies are a b for me to photograph so please be patient."
I'm sure he just wants to make sure the photos are good enough to help figure things out.
Not really, I found plenty of both designs on all of them.
It would appear the 09 S might have more of the Type 1 than the others but don't quote me on that.
Because of lower mintages it looks like it may have taken SF longer to use up the Type 1 dies.
@mr1874
"I think I will go ahead and order Gold Shield for my S VDB. I'll never be able to get detailed enough pics by doing the imaging myself."
^^^From a different thread^^^
Give your photo skills a try. I'll bet you will do just fine.
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
There should be a way to change your password to a new one with help from CU.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
There is a way to renew your membership even if you have to call them and have them help you reset it.
I would guess you have already checked to see if there is a TrueView from when it was graded?
I did check. PCGS has no image available of my coin.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 Give the photos a try..... I'm half blind and won't know the difference anyway.
Well untill we get clear information/pictures of this strange cent I'm sticking with the same old diagnostics we've been using on this site to detect counterfeit/fake S-VDB's. Afterall, the diagnostics have been used for 112 years to detect a bogus 1909-S VDB cent - good enough for me (still/for now).
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Another option is it was somehow graded wrong in the first place. This happened to me earlier this year as I thought I had purchased a 1970-S SMALL DATE graded by PCGS.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1063138/i-think-pcgs-got-it-wrong-on-this-70-s-small-date-cent#pagetop
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@ifthevamzarockin
Great post, great information and a great contributor to the forum. Thank you. Thanks also to @MarkW63
for his contributions to the removal of many false auctions on ebay. It is the likes of you that make this forum so
enjoyable. As we grow the forum allows us to learn and become more educated in the field we so love and share among
ourselves.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The dot between the D and B appears to be in the wrong spot. It looks much closer to the B than centered between the letters. As far as I know none of the known SVDB’s have an uncentered dot between those letters.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@mr1874 Thanks for the photos.
The woodgrain looks right for an 09 cent and I don't think any counterfeiter would be able to produce that look.
This would suggest we are dealing with a genuine US cent.
Very interesting the mint mark position looks different and not as slanted in the new photo.
The mint mark still seems a little further to the right and not quite a match for #4
The N of United is the Type 2 and would still be an area of concern.
I know you mentioned the VDB was hard to get a photo of maybe if you could try again
It looks like the center opening of the D may be a little larger and it looks like the height of the V & D may be a little off.
The bottom opening of the B looks a little larger than it should be.
The dot between the D & B seems like it may be a little closer to the D and not quite centered..
The mint mark position seem to be the closest match for one of the 09 S.
My dumb guess would be a genuine 1909 S cent with an added VDB.
A shot of both sides of the slab may also help a bit.
I would like others to help give an opinion on this one.
The upright bar of the B seems to slant a different direction.
The S on my 1909-S looks to be in the same placement as the OP. The reverse a
So has the Deep N.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@robec Yep, that is the same one I found and also the one mr1874 says matches his 09 S.
@ifthevamzarockin
To @MarkW63
I'm not very happy with you sending me down this rabbit hole but it's nice to have you as a member here
He mentioned me not asking him for help, I think he needs to change his avatar to a bloodhound, all I do is get a phony coin close enough to his nose and he'll track it right over the edge of a cliff, or down a rabbit hole, he can't help it, its in his blood
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
ifthevamzaarocking ???
It confuses a dawg if you call them different names all the time.
@mr1874 Can you confirm if the B is tilted the direction I showed?
Also if you could confirm this is the location of your dots.
Look again, your seeing things
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I was seeing the dot here.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts