The designers initials are faint, the image thru the case doesn't help for sure.
But, who here sees these differences?
The relationship height wise off the rim of the "V" and its follow dot as compared to the known genuine sample. Notice how little of the valley is exposed below the line from the dot to the wheat stem as compared?
Next is the inside opening of the "D" Mr.1874's seems tall and narrow as compared to wider and more open?
Then, the Dot following the "B" seems to be a good bit farther away as compared to the other sample, and keep in mind that comparison sample is enlarged more, so it should be the one with the wider spread?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@mr1874 Thank you for taking the time to describe what you are seeing.
I appreciate you taking the time to help members here have a chance to see something we don't see every day.
It would still be nice if you could do a slab shot when you get a chance.
"I'm seeing this dot slightly closer to D than B."
This would be a problem, this dot should be centered.
"The third dot ,after the B, is not really there."
That may not be a problem, you will find genuine svbd's with missing dots from time to time. grease fill
But it could indicate a problem if other problems are found.
"The slant of the B is very slightly to the right"
This is a problem, all seem to be upright or slightly tilted to the left.
"The position of the mm for both the piece with VDB and the comparison piece, a 1909-S without VDB appears to me, in hand, to be the same."
This would be a problem, if it seems to match the 09 S but doesn't match any of the known 4 positions for an svdb.
The other problem we have is the deep cut N (Type 2)
I can't find another example of a genuine svdb with a Type 2 reverse and I have looked quite a bit. It could be out there
There is a fair chance the Type 2 design dies were not even made yet at the time the svdb was struck and even if they were made there is a chance they hadn't been shipped to SF yet.
It also looks like @MarkW63 is showing us there are other things wrong with the VDB.
We have more than one red flag here.
You really only need to find one thing that you can say is for sure wrong. One and you're done.
Just a general ask.
It appears that the SVDB is actually touching the edge of the rim instead of it being above it looks like a 1909 P VDB Type 2
It could be the pic but if not, what say you?
Wayne
"The die chip in the upper loop of the S mm can be clearly seen on both pieces with a 10x loupe."
This along with the woodgrain would indicate a genuine cent was used.
These two things could greatly help this to pass as a genuine svdb, it gives it a genuine look and feel at first glance.
This appears to be a very good alteration made by a pro that knew exactly what they were doing.
I would also guess this is not a modern alteration.
"Why would a brilliant counterfeiter choose an obverse that is unknown for SVDB?"
Because it is one of the closest mint mark to the position 4.
Why choose a coin with the wear extent my coin is showing to put a VDB on?
To help hide the alteration and also give it the look of a genuine circulated coin.
There is also a chance they did the "pocket" thing to put a little additional circulation on it after it was made.
"I'm not concerned about getting money back on a guarantee."
You should take advantage of the guarantee and it also helps PCGS with future authentication.
No need for you to take a loss and you can use the money to replace it with a genuine example.
If it were mine I would contact them and also direct them to this thread when submitted.
"I will photo document the piece in the PCGS F15 holder that it is currently in before I send it"
Please take a photo of the slab now and post it here.
Additional information could be gained from the holder and it could help remove any questions about a counterfeit holder.
I don't think you have a counterfeit holder but it's the only piece of the puzzle we don't have.
@WAYNEAS said:
It appears that the SVDB is actually touching the edge of the rim instead of it being above it looks like a 1909 P VDB Type 2
Wayne
The designers initials including the periods (DOT) don't look to be in proper relationship with the rim, so when line is drawn from that first period directly to the tip of the left wheat stem it a good bit lower of the valley of the "V" and you get this.
This one is a little hard to see, but its one that's been deemed genuine, its one that could be called "Whispering VDB" (faint) but look where the line crosses the "V" look how much crotch of the V is below the line.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
As long as you don’t check the box that says Do Not Holder the coin will come in a slab with a Details grade. It will also come with a TrueView if you use Gold Shield service.
@mr1874 said:
Details grade? Already has a grade, PCGS F15.
I’m just addressing the part of your post where you said this:
**Will be interesting to see what happens when I send it in for Gold Shield slabbing. Bring it on. Let the chips fall where they may. I'm not concerned about getting money back on a guarantee. My piece comes back in a body bag.
I will photo document the piece in the PCGS F15 holder that it is currently in before I send it in because if my piece gets body-bagged I will forever lose the holder and label.**
@mr1874You came this far please post photos of the holder.
Mistakes happen we are all human.
PCGS will have a desire to get this coin off the market, I'm sure they will work with you to get the problem taken care of.
Their great customer service folks will do everything to try and make you a happy camper.
@mr1874
I think I found photos in CoinFacts for the 4 different positions. ( Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. )
You keep referring to "Harsche" dies and I think there is a chance this is an old reference.
It's very important to keep up on new research and studies.
At one time it was thought there were only 3 1933 ASG gold and at one time it was thought there was a 1980 D/S cent.
These are just a few numismatic examples and there are many more.
If I get a book from 1967 it will say we have not been to the moon yet.
Information gets revised or new information is found.
You would do yourself a favor if you accept the new reference material.
You keep referring to "Harsche" dies and I think there is a chance this is an old reference.
My Harsche (pronounced hăr shē) reference is "Detecting Altered Coins," Fifth Edition. Copyright MCMLXIII. On page 11, subject "Altered 1909 S VDB," Harsche discusses 10 ways altered 1909S VDB is made. To be sure, Harsche is an old school reference on altered coins before PCGS was a twinkle in it's daddy's eye.
For 1909-S VDB:
PCGS #1- Harsche doesn't list. Of course, just because Harsche doesn't list it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
PCGS #2- Harsche #1
PCGS #3- Harsche #2
PCGS #4- Harsche #3
I recently ordered a new (supposed to be in very good condition) Harsche book since my old one is getting pretty ragged and has been missing it's front and back cover for at least 30 years now.
ifmyvamsarockin, if you dare to hazard a guess, what would you think is the method of manufacture of my now famous cert #38363500 PCGS F15 1909S-VDB?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
MCMLXIII = 1963 This is old information, buy a new reference.
"ifmyvamsarockin, if you dare to hazard a guess, what would you think is the method of manufacture of my now famous cert #38363500 PCGS F15 1909S-VDB?"
I think it was manufactured the same way PCGS manufactures all of their slabs but I don't know the exact method.
"I recently ordered a new (supposed to be in very good condition) Harsche book since my old one is getting pretty ragged and has been missing it's front and back cover for at least 30 years now."
Do yourself a favor and throw them in the trash.
You are chasing down a very old rabbit hole and all you are going to find is an old, dead, stinky rabbit.
Sorry,I missed an 'X'. Copyright date of my Harsche is MCMLXXIII
Okay no guess from you how my coin was manufactured. I would guess that if my coin is a counterfeit that evaded detection by PCGS, method #3 discussed by Harsche was used: "Relief-etching a V.D.B. on the reverse of a regular 1909-S. Usually easy to detect with a magnifying glass by comparing with genuine piece."
Update 1/3/22: Careful inspection of the area around the VDB letters reveals NO DISTURBANCE to the woodgrain. The 'V' itself even has a streak of this woodgrain that flows into the area surrounding without disturbance. Acid etching the letters and dots of V.D.B. would be virtually impossible to pull off without disturbing the coins surface surrounding the letters and dots. I don't think the V.D.B. on my piece was acid-etched. The V.D.B. was struck onto the coin by the San Francisco mint, I have concluded.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
MCMLXXIII = 1973 This is still a very old reference.
Quite a few years back it was thought all Morgan micro O's were genuine and were graded as such.
It was more recently found that many of them are a counterfeit.
I'll admit this is a kind of silly example but if you look in a Red Book from 1973 you can't still buy a 1955/55 cent in MS for $150. You must look for current or up to date pricing. You need to look for current authentication information.
"Okay no guess from you how my coin was manufactured."
Without the coin "in hand" I would not even venture a guess other than to say it appears a genuine US cent was used.
"So, I've got a graded coin with totally wrong obverse AND a totally wrong reverse."
Correct.
"I would guess that if my coin is a counterfeit that evaded detection by PCGS"
If saw I your coin & holder for sale and realized what it was I would be more than happy to pay genuine 1909 S money for it and maybe just a touch more, maybe around $150. I would keep the coin & holder as is and use it to learn more myself and to teach others. I would keep it until I die, upon my death instructions would be left to donate it to the ANA, PCGS or destroy it.
If saw I your coin & holder for sale and didn't realize until I got it home I would not try to return it to the dealer. I would contact PCGS to have them review the coin and see if they can confirm what I am seeing. I would take advantage of their guarantee because there is a good chance I would have paid in the $750 - $1,000 range for the coin and it's worth no where near that as a learning tool or novelty item.
So far it looks like die#1 is pretty scarce. No coins posted here or on the 1909-S VDB thread have been from anything other than die 2,3 or 4, except the example coin from CoinFacts. That is probably the reason Harsche never listed it.
@mr1874 Another option for you would be to send it to a forum member here that does coin photos for others. There are several members here that take some amazing photos. The high quality photos may show more of how this alteration could have been done. You would also have high quality photos of your special coin to keep in your records and show to others. It's a way for you to keep it forever and be able to see it much better and still take advantage of getting your money back.
Is this the "book" by Harsche (1964) you are referencing on altered coins?. Doesn't really go in depth to investigate these altered coin varieties so I don't know if I'd be using it so religiously. By any chance can a picture of the 1909S-VDB page be posted? I could only find a page that references a 21 Merc......................
Are all the editions the same Pamphlet with different covers?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
What edition is your Harsche? Mine is 5th Edition and devotes 5 pages of the 48 that comprise his pamphlet style "book" to 1909-S VDB and 1909-S without VDB. Harsche is a pioneer in detecting altered 1909 S VDB's. Don't delay, get your 5th edition today. The covers of my old Harsche are long gone. My "new" Harsche will have covers. Only $1.00 in 1973? What a bargain.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874"A slab shot with a cert # would be a nice touch."
If you read my above post you will see the image came from CoinFacts and PCGS doesn't do full slab shots.
I do not own this coin so it is impossible for me to post a slab shot.
The cert# is 25112629 and it can be found here. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25112629
"Harsche is a pioneer in detecting altered 1909 S VDB's. Don't delay, get yours today."
You seem be be more intent on pushing this out of date publication and somehow proving he was right about 6 obverse dies than getting to the bottom of what is going on with your coin.
You posted in the other thread "This is my 1909-S V.D.B. PCGS F15. It is from Harsche die #6"
Now you are talking about and asking for photos of Die #1.
You are jumping all over the place. There are only 4 known obverse dies.
I don't have the book and wouldn't spend any money to get one. From the photos posted by @Steven59 it appears to be a basic or beginners guide rather than advanced authentication material and the information is out of date.
In another thread I said "let's walk before we run" in this thread you said "I've decided to take your advice and "walk before we run."
That's great! Let's not trip on our own feet at the finish line and fall flat on our face.
@alpha33 The mint mark is punched into the die and will not fall off the coin with acetone.
If you have one that has been glued on it will fall off with acetone and you have a problem coin.
There are other methods of adding a mint mark that do not require glue.
That is a topic for another thread but you could Google "embossed mint mark" and do some reading.
On 12-21-21 before posting this thread I went and talked to a counterfeit & alteration expert about the 1909 svdb.
I don't know if he is "the best" expert nationwide but I know he is "one of the best" nationwide. I don't know every expert
He has taught counterfeit & alteration classes for the ANA & the US Government and I trust him.
I asked him how he authenticates a 1909 svdb.
He said "I start with the mint mark if it's not in one of the 4 known positions it's not genuine, I stop there"
Next he said "I check for the die chip in the upper loop of the S, if it's not there it's not genuine"
Next was "I look at the crossbar of the B it should be slanted"
The last thing was "I check the location of the dots in VDB but sometimes they may be grease filled or have die erosion and even if the dots aren't there the other things will be there"
I asked "Is that it?"
He said "Yes"
I asked about the shallow N on the reverse and he said "I only use that when dealing with a proof"
I asked "Why not?"
He said "In 30+ years of doing this I have never seen a genuine coin that will pass all of the things I just told you and there is no need to look at anything else"
I'll admit I was a bit disappointed he doesn't use the N for another check point for authentication.
I asked "If there is another point you can check why wouldn't you use it?"
He said "Like I just told you, I have never seen one that can pass the things I mentioned in over 30 years so there is no need"
He also said "I know what you are talking about with the N but I have never done the research myself to know for sure the second design was not used on an svdb"
In closing he also said "Most of the time the mint mark will tell you all you need to know"
There is no need to compare 6 1909 S dies with 4 1909 S VDB dies it will only cause confusion as it has already.
"I've been asking for a forum member to post a picture of their SVDB from PCGS Die #1. Is that request okay?"
Sure that's okay.
But it would seem Die #1 is harder to find than the others and members may not have one to post.
A photo has been provided of Die #1
"I didn't see it on a single SVDB offered on ebay."
Just because there isn't one on ebay doesn't mean a thing.
As mentioned above it seems harder to find so it would make sense that one may not be listed at this time.
Did you check all the sold listings too?
"As a superbly crafted counterfeit that is now famous, it might be worth even more than twice what I paid for it especially in the PCGS F15 slab."
As I mentioned above.
If saw I your coin & holder for sale and realized what it was I would be more than happy to pay genuine 1909 S money for it and maybe just a touch more, maybe around $150. Unless you paid $75 it's not worth twice what you paid.
Please read my above post from an expert "if it's not in one of the 4 known positions it's not genuine"
"My coin has doubled in price from what I paid for it not that long ago."
That is great news!
If you take advantage of the guarantee at PCGS you should come out a few bucks ahead.
"I think I'll just take it back to the dealer I bought it from for a refund of what I paid."
Why would you do that when you could double your money and add a stimulating final outcome here?
A good dealer may refund you as good customer service, they would also refund you if they still believe it is genuine and can sell it to someone else for double what they just gave you. This just passes on the problem to someone else.
If you return it to the dealer you should make sure they see this thread but that is no guarantee they will not sell it again.
I hope the dealer will submit it to PCGS, double their money and post the outcome here.
Thank you for sharing your coin with the forum!
Please post an update if you send it to PCGS
Please re-read both threads!
Sorry, but this will be my last reply about your coin, we have beat this horse to death.
Dude! All this talk using an old reference that no one has a copy of and then saying die #3 is die #4 or die #6 is #1 that you have mentioned in other threads just confuses readers and kinda makes you look like you need to do a lot more research and pull your head out of the sand and accept current authentication standards.
Or are you just messing with me and playing jokes on my threads???
I have tried very hard to be patient and help you in every way I can.
I've not had much time on the thread over the weekend, and right now I'm a little short on time.
I also feel (think) the coin being in what looks to be a Genuine PCGS holder that the coin should go back to PCGS and let them look it over, and include a note about the specifics around the odd location of the mint mark as compared to the 4 known obverse dies.
Now, if you bought the coin from a coin dealer then maybe you & the dealer can come to terms about getting the coin returned to PCGS!.
Here is my take on the coin, I can't PROVE the coin genuine or not! I doubt the dealer you bought it from can?? We here on the forum can only pick apart the coin based of the public provided information.
I'm leaning on the side of the fence of,
Its a Genuine 1909-S (no VDB) that's been altered to include the VDB.
It appears to be in a Genuine holder as far as me and the other members here can tell, the label (tag) looks to have the correct color fade, the bar code appears to be SHARP with the known excellent detail, the somewhat textured denim pattern (as compared to mine) seems correct.
I'm still somewhat the new kid on the block here, and I may get some slack for offering this.
If You send it back in, I'll put up $50.00 if it comes back genuine!
If it comes back in a baggie as altered then from what I'm gathering it sounds like PCGS has a certification guarantee of some sort.
!Disclaimer!
I personally DO NOT KNOW if PCGS has a certification guarantee or NOT!
I'm not stating they DO!
I CANNOT nor am I making any claims of PCGS's guarantees, if I did I feel certain my head would be on the chopping block
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@ifthevamzarockin said: @MarkW63"Okay, why in the he** did you use a picture of a counterfeit horse in this thread"
Dang! Leave it to you to spot my dead horse is a counterfeit.... it's a mule.
I had to grab the image and draw a line from the very tip of its left ear to the tip of its nose as a marker, and sure enough I'm pretty sure its a phony horse
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63"If You send it back in, I'll put up $50.00 if it comes back genuine!"
I thought about the same thing only I was going to offer $100.
Then I got thinking if the coin was sent back and marked for "Holder & TrueView" only it may not be seen by a grader.
The photographer would have to catch it or it could be overlooked again.
He could show the new TrueView and there is no way to know if re-grade or review for authenticity was requested.
Comments
@robec "I was seeing the dot here."
I'm seeing dots everywhere!
That's why I asked him to confirm.
If the V.D.B. is a counterfeiter construct, it is a masterful one, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The designers initials are faint, the image thru the case doesn't help for sure.
But, who here sees these differences?
The relationship height wise off the rim of the "V" and its follow dot as compared to the known genuine sample. Notice how little of the valley is exposed below the line from the dot to the wheat stem as compared?
Next is the inside opening of the "D" Mr.1874's seems tall and narrow as compared to wider and more open?
Then, the Dot following the "B" seems to be a good bit farther away as compared to the other sample, and keep in mind that comparison sample is enlarged more, so it should be the one with the wider spread?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@mr1874 Thank you for taking the time to describe what you are seeing.
I appreciate you taking the time to help members here have a chance to see something we don't see every day.
It would still be nice if you could do a slab shot when you get a chance.
"I'm seeing this dot slightly closer to D than B."
This would be a problem, this dot should be centered.
"The third dot ,after the B, is not really there."
That may not be a problem, you will find genuine svbd's with missing dots from time to time. grease fill
But it could indicate a problem if other problems are found.
"The slant of the B is very slightly to the right"
This is a problem, all seem to be upright or slightly tilted to the left.
"The position of the mm for both the piece with VDB and the comparison piece, a 1909-S without VDB appears to me, in hand, to be the same."
This would be a problem, if it seems to match the 09 S but doesn't match any of the known 4 positions for an svdb.
The other problem we have is the deep cut N (Type 2)
I can't find another example of a genuine svdb with a Type 2 reverse and I have looked quite a bit. It could be out there
There is a fair chance the Type 2 design dies were not even made yet at the time the svdb was struck and even if they were made there is a chance they hadn't been shipped to SF yet.
It also looks like @MarkW63 is showing us there are other things wrong with the VDB.
We have more than one red flag here.
You really only need to find one thing that you can say is for sure wrong.
One and you're done.
Just a general ask.
It appears that the SVDB is actually touching the edge of the rim instead of it being above it looks like a 1909 P VDB Type 2
It could be the pic but if not, what say you?
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"The die chip in the upper loop of the S mm can be clearly seen on both pieces with a 10x loupe."
This along with the woodgrain would indicate a genuine cent was used.
These two things could greatly help this to pass as a genuine svdb, it gives it a genuine look and feel at first glance.
This appears to be a very good alteration made by a pro that knew exactly what they were doing.
I would also guess this is not a modern alteration.
"Why would a brilliant counterfeiter choose an obverse that is unknown for SVDB?"
Because it is one of the closest mint mark to the position 4.
Why choose a coin with the wear extent my coin is showing to put a VDB on?
To help hide the alteration and also give it the look of a genuine circulated coin.
There is also a chance they did the "pocket" thing to put a little additional circulation on it after it was made.
"I'm not concerned about getting money back on a guarantee."
You should take advantage of the guarantee and it also helps PCGS with future authentication.
No need for you to take a loss and you can use the money to replace it with a genuine example.
If it were mine I would contact them and also direct them to this thread when submitted.
"I will photo document the piece in the PCGS F15 holder that it is currently in before I send it"
Please take a photo of the slab now and post it here.
Additional information could be gained from the holder and it could help remove any questions about a counterfeit holder.
I don't think you have a counterfeit holder but it's the only piece of the puzzle we don't have.
The designers initials including the periods (DOT) don't look to be in proper relationship with the rim, so when line is drawn from that first period directly to the tip of the left wheat stem it a good bit lower of the valley of the "V" and you get this.
This one is a little hard to see, but its one that's been deemed genuine, its one that could be called "Whispering VDB" (faint) but look where the line crosses the "V" look how much crotch of the V is below the line.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
As long as you don’t check the box that says Do Not Holder the coin will come in a slab with a Details grade. It will also come with a TrueView if you use Gold Shield service.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Details grade? Already has a grade, PCGS F 15.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I’m just addressing the part of your post where you said this:
**Will be interesting to see what happens when I send it in for Gold Shield slabbing. Bring it on. Let the chips fall where they may. I'm not concerned about getting money back on a guarantee. My piece comes back in a body bag.
I will photo document the piece in the PCGS F15 holder that it is currently in before I send it in because if my piece gets body-bagged I will forever lose the holder and label.**
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@mr1874 You came this far please post photos of the holder.
Mistakes happen we are all human.
PCGS will have a desire to get this coin off the market, I'm sure they will work with you to get the problem taken care of.
Their great customer service folks will do everything to try and make you a happy camper.
"Eventually, I will probably publish pictures of the full slab"
"the dealer who sold me my 1909-S V.D.B. never shows the picture of the full slab"
^^^From another thread^^^
This seems kinda strange, why is everyone afraid to show the holder?
Edited to add link from other thread for future readers.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1068142/09svdb-seller-ended-the-listing/p1
...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Thank you mr1874
Everything looks good with the holder.
...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Thanks again and please post any updates.
...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874
I think I found photos in CoinFacts for the 4 different positions. ( Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. )
You keep referring to "Harsche" dies and I think there is a chance this is an old reference.
It's very important to keep up on new research and studies.
At one time it was thought there were only 3 1933 ASG gold and at one time it was thought there was a 1980 D/S cent.
These are just a few numismatic examples and there are many more.
If I get a book from 1967 it will say we have not been to the moon yet.
Information gets revised or new information is found.
You would do yourself a favor if you accept the new reference material.
Die #1
Die #2
Die #3
Die #4
You keep referring to "Harsche" dies and I think there is a chance this is an old reference.
My Harsche (pronounced hăr shē) reference is "Detecting Altered Coins," Fifth Edition. Copyright MCMLXIII. On page 11, subject "Altered 1909 S VDB," Harsche discusses 10 ways altered 1909S VDB is made. To be sure, Harsche is an old school reference on altered coins before PCGS was a twinkle in it's daddy's eye.
For 1909-S VDB:
PCGS #1- Harsche doesn't list. Of course, just because Harsche doesn't list it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
PCGS #2- Harsche #1
PCGS #3- Harsche #2
PCGS #4- Harsche #3
I recently ordered a new (supposed to be in very good condition) Harsche book since my old one is getting pretty ragged and has been missing it's front and back cover for at least 30 years now.
ifmyvamsarockin, if you dare to hazard a guess, what would you think is the method of manufacture of my now famous cert #38363500 PCGS F15 1909S-VDB?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
MCMLXIII = 1963 This is old information, buy a new reference.
"ifmyvamsarockin, if you dare to hazard a guess, what would you think is the method of manufacture of my now famous cert #38363500 PCGS F15 1909S-VDB?"
I think it was manufactured the same way PCGS manufactures all of their slabs but I don't know the exact method.
"Harsche is an old school reference"
"I recently ordered a new (supposed to be in very good condition) Harsche book since my old one is getting pretty ragged and has been missing it's front and back cover for at least 30 years now."
Do yourself a favor and throw them in the trash.
You are chasing down a very old rabbit hole and all you are going to find is an old, dead, stinky rabbit.
Sorry,I missed an 'X'. Copyright date of my Harsche is MCMLXXIII
Okay no guess from you how my coin was manufactured.
I would guess that if my coin is a counterfeit that evaded detection by PCGS, method #3 discussed by Harsche was used: "Relief-etching a V.D.B. on the reverse of a regular 1909-S. Usually easy to detect with a magnifying glass by comparing with genuine piece."
Update 1/3/22: Careful inspection of the area around the VDB letters reveals NO DISTURBANCE to the woodgrain. The 'V' itself even has a streak of this woodgrain that flows into the area surrounding without disturbance. Acid etching the letters and dots of V.D.B. would be virtually impossible to pull off without disturbing the coins surface surrounding the letters and dots. I don't think the V.D.B. on my piece was acid-etched. The V.D.B. was struck onto the coin by the San Francisco mint, I have concluded.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
MCMLXXIII = 1973 This is still a very old reference.
Quite a few years back it was thought all Morgan micro O's were genuine and were graded as such.
It was more recently found that many of them are a counterfeit.
I'll admit this is a kind of silly example but if you look in a Red Book from 1973 you can't still buy a 1955/55 cent in MS for $150. You must look for current or up to date pricing. You need to look for current authentication information.
"Okay no guess from you how my coin was manufactured."
Without the coin "in hand" I would not even venture a guess other than to say it appears a genuine US cent was used.
"So, I've got a graded coin with totally wrong obverse AND a totally wrong reverse."
Correct.
"I would guess that if my coin is a counterfeit that evaded detection by PCGS"
I agree
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
If saw I your coin & holder for sale and realized what it was I would be more than happy to pay genuine 1909 S money for it and maybe just a touch more, maybe around $150. I would keep the coin & holder as is and use it to learn more myself and to teach others. I would keep it until I die, upon my death instructions would be left to donate it to the ANA, PCGS or destroy it.
If saw I your coin & holder for sale and didn't realize until I got it home I would not try to return it to the dealer. I would contact PCGS to have them review the coin and see if they can confirm what I am seeing. I would take advantage of their guarantee because there is a good chance I would have paid in the $750 - $1,000 range for the coin and it's worth no where near that as a learning tool or novelty item.
@mr1874 "And still looking in your show me your SVDB thread for SVDB from PCGS Die #1."
Photo posted above.
So far it looks like die#1 is pretty scarce. No coins posted here or on the 1909-S VDB thread have been from anything other than die 2,3 or 4, except the example coin from CoinFacts. That is probably the reason Harsche never listed it.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@mr1874 Another option for you would be to send it to a forum member here that does coin photos for others. There are several members here that take some amazing photos. The high quality photos may show more of how this alteration could have been done. You would also have high quality photos of your special coin to keep in your records and show to others. It's a way for you to keep it forever and be able to see it much better and still take advantage of getting your money back.
I know @rmpsrpms has an amazing set up and they may do photos for others.
Check out what can be done.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1060817/first-shots-with-new-camera
Is this the "book" by Harsche (1964) you are referencing on altered coins?. Doesn't really go in depth to investigate these altered coin varieties so I don't know if I'd be using it so religiously. By any chance can a picture of the 1909S-VDB page be posted? I could only find a page that references a 21 Merc......................
Are all the editions the same Pamphlet with different covers?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
What edition is your Harsche? Mine is 5th Edition and devotes 5 pages of the 48 that comprise his pamphlet style "book" to 1909-S VDB and 1909-S without VDB. Harsche is a pioneer in detecting altered 1909 S VDB's. Don't delay, get your 5th edition today. The covers of my old Harsche are long gone. My "new" Harsche will have covers. Only $1.00 in 1973? What a bargain.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 "A slab shot with a cert # would be a nice touch."
If you read my above post you will see the image came from CoinFacts and PCGS doesn't do full slab shots.
I do not own this coin so it is impossible for me to post a slab shot.
The cert# is 25112629 and it can be found here.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25112629
"Harsche is a pioneer in detecting altered 1909 S VDB's. Don't delay, get yours today."
You seem be be more intent on pushing this out of date publication and somehow proving he was right about 6 obverse dies than getting to the bottom of what is going on with your coin.
You posted in the other thread "This is my 1909-S V.D.B. PCGS F15. It is from Harsche die #6"
Now you are talking about and asking for photos of Die #1.
You are jumping all over the place.
There are only 4 known obverse dies.
I don't have the book and wouldn't spend any money to get one. From the photos posted by @Steven59 it appears to be a basic or beginners guide rather than advanced authentication material and the information is out of date.
In another thread I said "let's walk before we run" in this thread you said "I've decided to take your advice and "walk before we run."
That's great! Let's not trip on our own feet at the finish line and fall flat on our face.
@alpha33 The mint mark is punched into the die and will not fall off the coin with acetone.
If you have one that has been glued on it will fall off with acetone and you have a problem coin.
There are other methods of adding a mint mark that do not require glue.
That is a topic for another thread but you could Google "embossed mint mark" and do some reading.
On 12-21-21 before posting this thread I went and talked to a counterfeit & alteration expert about the 1909 svdb.
I don't know if he is "the best" expert nationwide but I know he is "one of the best" nationwide. I don't know every expert
He has taught counterfeit & alteration classes for the ANA & the US Government and I trust him.
I asked him how he authenticates a 1909 svdb.
He said "I start with the mint mark if it's not in one of the 4 known positions it's not genuine, I stop there"
Next he said "I check for the die chip in the upper loop of the S, if it's not there it's not genuine"
Next was "I look at the crossbar of the B it should be slanted"
The last thing was "I check the location of the dots in VDB but sometimes they may be grease filled or have die erosion and even if the dots aren't there the other things will be there"
I asked "Is that it?"
He said "Yes"
I asked about the shallow N on the reverse and he said "I only use that when dealing with a proof"
I asked "Why not?"
He said "In 30+ years of doing this I have never seen a genuine coin that will pass all of the things I just told you and there is no need to look at anything else"
I'll admit I was a bit disappointed he doesn't use the N for another check point for authentication.
I asked "If there is another point you can check why wouldn't you use it?"
He said "Like I just told you, I have never seen one that can pass the things I mentioned in over 30 years so there is no need"
He also said "I know what you are talking about with the N but I have never done the research myself to know for sure the second design was not used on an svdb"
In closing he also said "Most of the time the mint mark will tell you all you need to know"
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"Harsche die #6 for 1909-S cents without V.D.B."
There is no need to compare 6 1909 S dies with 4 1909 S VDB dies it will only cause confusion as it has already.
"I've been asking for a forum member to post a picture of their SVDB from PCGS Die #1. Is that request okay?"
Sure that's okay.
But it would seem Die #1 is harder to find than the others and members may not have one to post.
A photo has been provided of Die #1
"I didn't see it on a single SVDB offered on ebay."
Just because there isn't one on ebay doesn't mean a thing.
As mentioned above it seems harder to find so it would make sense that one may not be listed at this time.
Did you check all the sold listings too?
"As a superbly crafted counterfeit that is now famous, it might be worth even more than twice what I paid for it especially in the PCGS F15 slab."
As I mentioned above.
If saw I your coin & holder for sale and realized what it was I would be more than happy to pay genuine 1909 S money for it and maybe just a touch more, maybe around $150. Unless you paid $75 it's not worth twice what you paid.
Please read my above post from an expert "if it's not in one of the 4 known positions it's not genuine"
"My coin has doubled in price from what I paid for it not that long ago."
That is great news!
If you take advantage of the guarantee at PCGS you should come out a few bucks ahead.
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Back to this again!
I'm gonna jump off a cliff!
If anybody wants a copy of the pamphlet to see what all this is about there are 4 available on eBay...........(I'm passing)
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=Detecting+altered+coins+harsche&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=Harsche&_osacat=0
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"I think I'll just take it back to the dealer I bought it from for a refund of what I paid."
Why would you do that when you could double your money and add a stimulating final outcome here?
A good dealer may refund you as good customer service, they would also refund you if they still believe it is genuine and can sell it to someone else for double what they just gave you. This just passes on the problem to someone else.
If you return it to the dealer you should make sure they see this thread but that is no guarantee they will not sell it again.
I hope the dealer will submit it to PCGS, double their money and post the outcome here.
Thank you for sharing your coin with the forum!
Please post an update if you send it to PCGS
Please re-read both threads!
Sorry, but this will be my last reply about your coin, we have beat this horse to death.
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874
Dude! All this talk using an old reference that no one has a copy of and then saying die #3 is die #4 or die #6 is #1 that you have mentioned in other threads just confuses readers and kinda makes you look like you need to do a lot more research and pull your head out of the sand and accept current authentication standards.
Or are you just messing with me and playing jokes on my threads???
I have tried very hard to be patient and help you in every way I can.
I've not had much time on the thread over the weekend, and right now I'm a little short on time.
I also feel (think) the coin being in what looks to be a Genuine PCGS holder that the coin should go back to PCGS and let them look it over, and include a note about the specifics around the odd location of the mint mark as compared to the 4 known obverse dies.
Now, if you bought the coin from a coin dealer then maybe you & the dealer can come to terms about getting the coin returned to PCGS!.
Here is my take on the coin, I can't PROVE the coin genuine or not! I doubt the dealer you bought it from can?? We here on the forum can only pick apart the coin based of the public provided information.
I'm leaning on the side of the fence of,
Its a Genuine 1909-S (no VDB) that's been altered to include the VDB.
It appears to be in a Genuine holder as far as me and the other members here can tell, the label (tag) looks to have the correct color fade, the bar code appears to be SHARP with the known excellent detail, the somewhat textured denim pattern (as compared to mine) seems correct.
I'm still somewhat the new kid on the block here, and I may get some slack for offering this.
If You send it back in, I'll put up $50.00 if it comes back genuine!
If it comes back in a baggie as altered then from what I'm gathering it sounds like PCGS has a certification guarantee of some sort.
!Disclaimer!
I personally DO NOT KNOW if PCGS has a certification guarantee or NOT!
I'm not stating they DO!
I CANNOT nor am I making any claims of PCGS's guarantees, if I did I feel certain my head would be on the chopping block
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Okay, why in the he** did you use a picture of a counterfeit horse in this thread
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63 "Okay, why in the he** did you use a picture of a counterfeit horse in this thread"
Dang! Leave it to you to spot my dead horse is a counterfeit.... it's a mule.
I had to grab the image and draw a line from the very tip of its left ear to the tip of its nose as a marker, and sure enough I'm pretty sure its a phony horse
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63 "If You send it back in, I'll put up $50.00 if it comes back genuine!"
I thought about the same thing only I was going to offer $100.
Then I got thinking if the coin was sent back and marked for "Holder & TrueView" only it may not be seen by a grader.
The photographer would have to catch it or it could be overlooked again.
He could show the new TrueView and there is no way to know if re-grade or review for authenticity was requested.