@ifthevamzarockin said: @MarkW63"If You send it back in, I'll put up $50.00 if it comes back genuine!"
I thought about the same thing only I was going to offer $100.
Then I got thinking if the coin was sent back and marked for "Holder & TrueView" only it may not be seen by a grader.
The photographer would have to catch it or it could be overlooked again.
He could show the new TrueView and there is no way to know if re-grade or review for authenticity was requested.
How about cracking it out of the slab, and just submitting it as a RAW coin? (My $50.00 still stands if it comes back genuine) But I'd have to have quality enough images to identify it!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63 At this point I'm not sure that he is not just messing with us and he could even photoshop it into a new holder if it was not online searchable on the PCGS website.
Edited to add: He may have photoshopped the coin we have been looking at into the holder.
Nope!
Wait for it...............................................
Mr.1874 losing the guarantee, and then he couldn't return it to the dealer if it comes back in a sandwich bag, and I'd get to keep my $50.00
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
How about cracking it out of the slab, and just submitting it as a RAW coin? (My $50.00 still stands if it comes back genuine) But I'd have to have quality enough images to identify it!
Why on Earth would I crack it and submit it as a RAW coin? Would you do that?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Do a regrade with Gold Shield
Or call Customer Service and ask about how to go about an authenticity inspection or review. More than likely it would be a regrade or even Reconsideration.
BTW the QR Code on @mr1874’s slab is valid and show the coin as an SVDB.
Okay bye. Get back to talking about deep and shallow valley N's then. I'll start my own thread just for my S VDB if there are new developments but as I said in an earlier post, I'm in no hurry as I want to carefully weigh my options.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Here is a thread that shows how easy it is to photoshop a coin in a holder.
A genuine holder that the QR code is valid could be used and any coin put in it's place.
Here is a thread that shows how easy it is to photoshop a coin in a holder.
A genuine holder that the QR code is valid could be used and any coin put in it's place.
@ifthevamzarockin You are chasing down a very old rabbit hole and all you are going to find is an old, dead, stinky rabbit
And where is the image of this counterfeit dead Rabbit?
Oh, that book
I have a neighbor who's told me that many years ago he had two 09SVDB's his wife got really ill and they didn't have any insurance, and he had to sell them, bla..bla.................
So, a couple of months ago he's cleaning out some things from his mobile home and he brings me over a small stack of these very OLD, discolored, smelly coin books from the 60's and very early 70's and because they were so old including the dead stinky rabbit one I let the wife throw them away.
This From The Internet,
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
In 1949, Dr. William Sheldon developed what has become known as the Sheldon Scale of coin grading.
This method of grading coins added a numerical 70-point scale to the descriptive terms already in use.
Coin collectors at the time knew about of Dr. Sheldon's scale, but it did not become the norm until the mid 1980s when third-party coin grading services came onto the scene.
These coin grading services merged the numeric 70-point scale of Dr. Sheldon with the descriptive terms of earlier times to develop the system for grading coins we use today.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@robec said:
So far it looks like die#1 is pretty scarce. No coins posted here or on the 1909-S VDB thread have been from anything other than die 2,3 or 4, except the example coin from CoinFacts. That is probably the reason Harsche never listed it.
It's scarce because Die#1 was the one in the press when the Mint pulled the reverse V.D.B. die and replaced it with one having no initials.
That's why the position exists on both V.D.B. and non V.D.B. Cents.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
@robec said:
So far it looks like die#1 is pretty scarce. No coins posted here or on the 1909-S VDB thread have been from anything other than die 2,3 or 4, except the example coin from CoinFacts. That is probably the reason Harsche never listed it.
It's scarce because Die#1 was the one in the press when the Mint pulled the reverse V.D.B. die and replaced it with one having no initials.
That's why the position exists on both V.D.B. and non V.D.B. Cents.
Pete
Then wouldn’t that make it Die#4, since it would be the last one used?
@BuffaloIronTail Yes, it could have been the last die and was pulled before very many were struck.
It also could have been any of the 4 dies, if there was a machinery or die failure that damaged the die.
@robec I think the numbering system for them came later and is not in order of use.
The S on my 1909-S looks to be in the same placement as the OP. The reverse a
So has the Deep N.
Your coin is a beauty. My 1909-S is an ANACS VF20. Has deepshallow valley 'N'. 'S' is FLFR, same as yours. I bought my ANACS 1909-S to match up with my PCGS F15 S VDB in as many respects as possible, except for the V.D.B. of course. The 'N's matching is accidental. If I ever sell my two 1909-S's, one with V.D.B., the other without, they go as a pair.
2/5/22 Struck through text to correct my error in what I was seeing on 29 December. My without V.D.B. 1909-S from die #6 has "old" reverse like most of them do. 1909-S without V.D.B. from obverse die#6 with new reverse does exist but not nearly in as many numbers as those with "old" reverse.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 Enough about your coin! We have beaten this horse to death! If you want to talk about your coin please make a thread for it.
You argued with me for 2 pages and then finally admitted in your thread that you were wrong and I was right.
You said: "I wrote: "PCGS #1 looks "off" to me. The 'S' on it is a mess. I doubt it's for 1909-S V.D.B. or even for 1909-S without V.D.B. Scratch that one off the list and add "far low, far right" and we're up to 4 again." I was wrong here. "Mess of an 'S' " 1909-S V.D.B. does exist.
I have other research to present here and it would be best if readers don't have to scroll through 10 pages about your coin.
Your counterfeit coin has more than 1 thing wrong with it and you refuse to accept that fact.
It only needs one thing wrong to be a problem coin that needs to go back to PCGS for further research.
I can't help you and the forum can't help you if refuse to accept and read the information that has been provided.
Your overactive imagination is preventing you from absorbing the facts.
You wrote: "I do have a very active imagination."
You wrote: "maybe a bored mint worker decided to try his hand at modifying the V.D.B. and in doing so put HIS signature on a few SVDB's that made it into the channels of commerce."
Do you really think this happened? I have never seen other signatures on an SVDB.
A mint worker signed his signature on a few SVDB's
Do you understand how your overactive imagination is making you look silly?
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
The issue was resolved. The first 1909-S V.D.B. that I ever bought turned out to be an altered coin. A genuine 1909-S cent was used to make the alteration. A V.D.B. had been masterfully acid-etched onto the reverse. I bought the piece already slabbed and it was in my collection for a couple of years. I was researching 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. cents using Bert Harsche's "Detecting Altered Coins" and found that the obverse position of the 'S' on my coin did not match up with known 'S' positions for 1909-S V.D.B. cents and it went from there. It is kind of a long story that I won't go into here.
Thanks to IkeT's wonderful overlay work here that established as a fact that a genuine 1909-S cent was used AND the cooperation of the highly ethical dealer I bought the piece from AND PCGS's no BS forever guarantee of authenticity, I got the coin replaced with a genuine 1909-S V.D.B. in the exact same grade as the fake that I had unwittingly bought several years earlier.
Here is my example of 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent for all here to admire...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
Acid etching the letters and dots of V.D.B. would be virtually impossible to pull off without disturbing the coins surface surrounding the letters and dots. I don't think the V.D.B. on my piece was acid-etched. The V.D.B. was struck onto the coin by the San Francisco mint, I have concluded.
@mr1931S said:
Acid etching the letters and dots of V.D.B. would be virtually impossible to pull off without disturbing the coins surface surrounding the letters and dots. I don't think the V.D.B. on my piece was acid-etched. The V.D.B. was struck onto the coin by the San Francisco mint, I have concluded.
That was written when I thought the piece was an authentic 1909-S V.D.B. It's called wishful thinking. I mean, I'm not a know it all like some on this board. J.P. Martin called it correctly. Added V.D.B. He wanted to buy my piece for his collection of counterfeits but I let him know that I would not sell it to him. He wouldn't have paid me what I was into it for. As it turns out, I came out about $300 in value more with my replacement S-V.D.B. The coin in PCGS F15 had appreciated that much over the several years that I owned the counterfeit. Indeed, acid etched V.D.B. as determined by an expert at PCGS who shall remain anonymous as the will the dealer who sold the piece to me.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
It's all in fun. "Came into being" is an odd phrase, and made me think of this scene in LOTR.
It is certainly accurate.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
I happen to like 1931-S pennies a lot, had the opportunity to change my ID, so I did. I have three 1931-S pennies, three 1909-S pennies, one 1914-D penny, and of course, one 1909-S V.D.B.
It could be two 1909-S V.D.B. pennies soon since I want to leave my PCGS F15 in it's holder. The S VDB I would buy could be raw. I'm not afraid to buy a raw 1909-S V.D.B. which could go directly into my album but I can't recommend that anyone buy raw 1909-S V.D.B. without a complete understanding of what Bert Harsche is saying about them, in particular, how to identify fakes along with Bert's discussion of methods of manufacture.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
For the record, mr1874 was not "taken by a fake 09s VDB." My first 1909-S V.D.B. was in a PCGS slab when I bought it. Recommendation I have for all readers here is that if you buy a 1909-S V.D.B. for your collection make sure you buy PCGS certified from a reputable dealer that you know and trust.
I have known the dealer I bought my fake from for many years. His ethics are second to none. The dealer tells me that he bought the 1909-S V.D.B. as part of a collection of Lincolns. He submitted to PCGS what he thought was a genuine 1909-S V.D.B. My counterfeit S V.D.B. was an old school counterfeit made long ago when 1909-S pennies without V.D.B. were relatively cheap and concentrated nitric acid (used to make a V.D.B.) was easy to obtain. I learned about methods of making counterfeit S V.D.B.'s by reading in Bert Harsche's "Detecting Altered Coins", Fifth Edition.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Comments
How about cracking it out of the slab, and just submitting it as a RAW coin? (My $50.00 still stands if it comes back genuine) But I'd have to have quality enough images to identify it!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63 If you crack it you lose the PCGS guarantee.
@MarkW63 At this point I'm not sure that he is not just messing with us and he could even photoshop it into a new holder if it was not online searchable on the PCGS website.
Edited to add: He may have photoshopped the coin we have been looking at into the holder.
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Nope!
Wait for it...............................................
Mr.1874 losing the guarantee, and then he couldn't return it to the dealer if it comes back in a sandwich bag, and I'd get to keep my $50.00
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
He is just playing games.
He may have photoshopped the coin we have been looking at into the holder.
For cripes sake.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Maybe he is Bert Harsche and he is trying to pawn off the last few copies of his book.
How about cracking it out of the slab, and just submitting it as a RAW coin? (My $50.00 still stands if it comes back genuine) But I'd have to have quality enough images to identify it!
Why on Earth would I crack it and submit it as a RAW coin? Would you do that?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 I'm not sure why you are trying to de-rail my thread.
Do a regrade with Gold Shield
Or call Customer Service and ask about how to go about an authenticity inspection or review. More than likely it would be a regrade or even Reconsideration.
BTW the QR Code on @mr1874’s slab is valid and show the coin as an SVDB.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Okay bye. Get back to talking about deep and shallow valley N's then. I'll start my own thread just for my S VDB if there are new developments but as I said in an earlier post, I'm in no hurry as I want to carefully weigh my options.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@robec & @MarkW63
Here is a thread that shows how easy it is to photoshop a coin in a holder.
A genuine holder that the QR code is valid could be used and any coin put in it's place.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1068272/coin-photography-trouble-with-slab-shots
Oh yeah, I know that some do that. I don’t think that is the case with this coin. I believe he is being truthful about his coin in that slab.
I agree it needs to be seen by PCGS. It wouldn’t be the first coin a mistake was made in the grading room.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@ifthevamzarockin
You are chasing down a very old rabbit hole and all you are going to find is an old, dead, stinky rabbit
And where is the image of this counterfeit dead Rabbit?
Oh, that book
I have a neighbor who's told me that many years ago he had two 09SVDB's his wife got really ill and they didn't have any insurance, and he had to sell them, bla..bla.................
So, a couple of months ago he's cleaning out some things from his mobile home and he brings me over a small stack of these very OLD, discolored, smelly coin books from the 60's and very early 70's and because they were so old including the dead stinky rabbit one I let the wife throw them away.
This From The Internet,
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
In 1949, Dr. William Sheldon developed what has become known as the Sheldon Scale of coin grading.
This method of grading coins added a numerical 70-point scale to the descriptive terms already in use.
Coin collectors at the time knew about of Dr. Sheldon's scale, but it did not become the norm until the mid 1980s when third-party coin grading services came onto the scene.
These coin grading services merged the numeric 70-point scale of Dr. Sheldon with the descriptive terms of earlier times to develop the system for grading coins we use today.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
.mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
It's scarce because Die#1 was the one in the press when the Mint pulled the reverse V.D.B. die and replaced it with one having no initials.
That's why the position exists on both V.D.B. and non V.D.B. Cents.
Pete
Then wouldn’t that make it Die#4, since it would be the last one used?
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@BuffaloIronTail Yes, it could have been the last die and was pulled before very many were struck.
It also could have been any of the 4 dies, if there was a machinery or die failure that damaged the die.
@robec I think the numbering system for them came later and is not in order of use.
The S on my 1909-S looks to be in the same placement as the OP. The reverse a
So has the Deep N.
Your coin is a beauty. My 1909-S is an ANACS VF20. Has deepshallow valley 'N'. 'S' is FLFR, same as yours. I bought my ANACS 1909-S to match up with my PCGS F15 S VDB in as many respects as possible, except for the V.D.B. of course. The 'N's matching is accidental. If I ever sell my two 1909-S's, one with V.D.B., the other without, they go as a pair.
2/5/22 Struck through text to correct my error in what I was seeing on 29 December. My without V.D.B. 1909-S from die #6 has "old" reverse like most of them do. 1909-S without V.D.B. from obverse die#6 with new reverse does exist but not nearly in as many numbers as those with "old" reverse.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874
Enough about your coin!
We have beaten this horse to death!
If you want to talk about your coin please make a thread for it.
You argued with me for 2 pages and then finally admitted in your thread that you were wrong and I was right.
You said: "I wrote: "PCGS #1 looks "off" to me. The 'S' on it is a mess. I doubt it's for 1909-S V.D.B. or even for 1909-S without V.D.B. Scratch that one off the list and add "far low, far right" and we're up to 4 again."
I was wrong here. "Mess of an 'S' " 1909-S V.D.B. does exist.
I have other research to present here and it would be best if readers don't have to scroll through 10 pages about your coin.
Your counterfeit coin has more than 1 thing wrong with it and you refuse to accept that fact.
It only needs one thing wrong to be a problem coin that needs to go back to PCGS for further research.
I can't help you and the forum can't help you if refuse to accept and read the information that has been provided.
Your overactive imagination is preventing you from absorbing the facts.
You wrote: "I do have a very active imagination."
You wrote: "maybe a bored mint worker decided to try his hand at modifying the V.D.B. and in doing so put HIS signature on a few SVDB's that made it into the channels of commerce."
Do you really think this happened? I have never seen other signatures on an SVDB.
A mint worker signed his signature on a few SVDB's
Do you understand how your overactive imagination is making you look silly?
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
.
.
@PCGS_Moderator or @HeatherBoyd
Here is another thread that everybody was trying to help mr1874 and he made a mess of it with mass deletions.
"analysis paralysis". I like that. It rhymes real nice.
Wish I would have coined it.
Pete
Was this issue ever resolved?
Yes, the coin was confirmed to be a counterfeit that somehow ended up in a PCGS slab.
This thread started off well. Then......
How did @mr1874 become @mr1931S ?
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
There was a short forum glitch that allowed members to change their ID.
Several members took advantage of the short glitch.
The issue was resolved. The first 1909-S V.D.B. that I ever bought turned out to be an altered coin. A genuine 1909-S cent was used to make the alteration. A V.D.B. had been masterfully acid-etched onto the reverse. I bought the piece already slabbed and it was in my collection for a couple of years. I was researching 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. cents using Bert Harsche's "Detecting Altered Coins" and found that the obverse position of the 'S' on my coin did not match up with known 'S' positions for 1909-S V.D.B. cents and it went from there. It is kind of a long story that I won't go into here.
Thanks to IkeT's wonderful overlay work here that established as a fact that a genuine 1909-S cent was used AND the cooperation of the highly ethical dealer I bought the piece from AND PCGS's no BS forever guarantee of authenticity, I got the coin replaced with a genuine 1909-S V.D.B. in the exact same grade as the fake that I had unwittingly bought several years earlier.
Here is my example of 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent for all here to admire...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
That was written when I thought the piece was an authentic 1909-S V.D.B. It's called wishful thinking. I mean, I'm not a know it all like some on this board. J.P. Martin called it correctly. Added V.D.B. He wanted to buy my piece for his collection of counterfeits but I let him know that I would not sell it to him. He wouldn't have paid me what I was into it for. As it turns out, I came out about $300 in value more with my replacement S-V.D.B. The coin in PCGS F15 had appreciated that much over the several years that I owned the counterfeit. Indeed, acid etched V.D.B. as determined by an expert at PCGS who shall remain anonymous as the will the dealer who sold the piece to me.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
mr1931S came into being because he legally could.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Perfect meme!
That's harsche.
That is a rough illustration.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
It's all in fun. "Came into being" is an odd phrase, and made me think of this scene in LOTR.
It is certainly accurate.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
I happen to like 1931-S pennies a lot, had the opportunity to change my ID, so I did. I have three 1931-S pennies, three 1909-S pennies, one 1914-D penny, and of course, one 1909-S V.D.B.
It could be two 1909-S V.D.B. pennies soon since I want to leave my PCGS F15 in it's holder. The S VDB I would buy could be raw. I'm not afraid to buy a raw 1909-S V.D.B. which could go directly into my album but I can't recommend that anyone buy raw 1909-S V.D.B. without a complete understanding of what Bert Harsche is saying about them, in particular, how to identify fakes along with Bert's discussion of methods of manufacture.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
For the record, mr1874 was not "taken by a fake 09s VDB." My first 1909-S V.D.B. was in a PCGS slab when I bought it. Recommendation I have for all readers here is that if you buy a 1909-S V.D.B. for your collection make sure you buy PCGS certified from a reputable dealer that you know and trust.
I have known the dealer I bought my fake from for many years. His ethics are second to none. The dealer tells me that he bought the 1909-S V.D.B. as part of a collection of Lincolns. He submitted to PCGS what he thought was a genuine 1909-S V.D.B. My counterfeit S V.D.B. was an old school counterfeit made long ago when 1909-S pennies without V.D.B. were relatively cheap and concentrated nitric acid (used to make a V.D.B.) was easy to obtain. I learned about methods of making counterfeit S V.D.B.'s by reading in Bert Harsche's "Detecting Altered Coins", Fifth Edition.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Harsche and Popper.
Please stop, the jokes are starting to write themselves.
And you refused to acquire it through this entire thread.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein