I need a crash course in silver dollars...
Coinscratch
Posts: 8,652 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was in a pawn shop today and looking at some coins when a guy behind me who at first I thought was a clerk answering my questions turns out to be someone who just walked in. He started telling me about his wifes grandpa who passed and left a collection of silver dollars. I told him I was interested, He then asked the pawn guy if that was allright and the clerk said to take it outside. YAY! So, we traded #'s and are meeting up tomorrow. When asked, he explained the coins were not graded but in slips in folders. I don't want to pay too much but at the same time I want to give a fair price. I need to know what the key dates are? What to be looking for? What is a fair price for cir. and uncir. etc. Obviously, if I see one thing that looks great I will try and secure the entire collection rather quickly. But I don't even know what I'm up against yet.
Thanks in advance!
Comments
quick:
Buy a Red Book, but don't use those prices for buying, divide say by a fair number
BHNC #203
If they have a lady with flowing hair...
U.S. 'Silver" Dollars date from 1794 to 1935 [Excluding Ikes]
I do not think a crash course [cramming] the night before is a great idea, perhaps see what he has, take notes [or pics] and then do some research and get back to him with an offer
Just my opinion
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There is a price guide here, but the first issue is making sure they are genuine, not made in China or somewhere else. Counterfeiters are very good now. Be careful.
@CoinscratchFever ...do you have anyone near you that has Silver Dollar knowledge? In the same way that I know nothing about gold for example... I would never buy any without some with me who did know. If you are not familiar with the series being offered, you shouldn't try to "learn" it quickly in this situation. Just my opinion
Don't bring cash
Collector, occasional seller
Do not meet him in a secluded area, meet in public and dont carry large amounts of cash. This sounds a little strange. I heard about online where they claim they have an collection of coins left from a death. Some of them are legit and some there selling counterfits. Could this be a new trend robbing by gun point.
If this sounds a bit paranoid it was meant to be just to keep you on your guard. Bring a friend dont go alone. ( Its your life you do what you want.) Not sure what State your in as far as self defense goes. If your in California your screwed you have to wait till your shot before you can call police. ( just kidding )
Be safe I do hope its a good deal.
"Step into my parlor," said the spider to the fly.
I knew it would happen.
a quick look at the prices in the PCGS Price Guide will give you an idea of the more valuable key dates. Make a list of the key dates. The fact that he was answering your coin questions in the shop indicates he already knows the key dates and has likely pulled them.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Yes, you can buy a Red Book to see which dates in the Morgan Dollar series are better, BUT be advised that many of those "better dates" on mostly of importance in Mint State condition.
Most any Morgan Dollar with a Carson City mint mark (CC) is better. All of the coins from 1893 to 1895 are "better."
The BIG TROUBLE is if you are buying RAW COINS there are MANY, MANY Chinese counterfeits on the market. The Chinese have duplicated good dates, common dates and date and mint mark combinations that don't even exist. If you can't spot these counterfeits, you can get burned big time. Most of these counterfeits are in "circulated condition," and they don't even contain silver.
If there are any old dollars (Flowing Hair, Draped Bust, Seated) in this accumulation, the Chinese have made those too. Years ago I saw a complete set of "SEATED DOLLARS" in a "Dansco coin album." The trouble is everything was counterfeit, including the album.
The days of buying these coins casually with no or limited knowledge are over. If you want something like this I'd find an honest, knowledgeable dealer with a big silver dollar "junk box" and have at it. You might end up better off in the end.
I hate EVERYTHING about this scenario.
I don't know how well you know the pawn dealer. Unless you happen to be friends with the guy, this is also a perfect way for the pawn broker to fence stolen goods without jeopardizing his business. He has a friend hanging around looking for a guppy who then "takes it outside". The transaction does not go through the pawn dealer.
If I pay rent on a store and make my living buying and selling coins & precious metals, why would I let you take my lunch outside? At the very least, I would request a broker fee or something of that nature.
The first thing I would do is google his name and phone number since you probably know both. As @jmlanzaf said; How well do you know this pawn broker? Unless you do a lot of business with the pawn broker it doesn't pass the "smell test" in my opinion. Do you know someone locally that's knowledgeable about silver dollars who could accompany you to the meet?
Meet in a place where you will feel safe preferable a public place. If the seller balks that would be a red flag.
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I like to meet people in a room at a public library - "neutral territory". If you don't know anything about coins, YOU are the disadvantaged ones in this transaction.
sounds like a set-up to me, but bring a football player size friend or two w/you to the meeting at a police station.
Walk, better yet, Run away from this potential scam. This scenario reminds of David Hannum famous saying:
"There's a sucker born every minute"
There are few coincidences when it comes to your lucky day. If you must do this, you need a magnet, a digital scale, some easy accessible reference info and time. The fakes are everywhere. Plenty of proof about fakes on the Google. Crappy fakes, good ones and really good ones. Are you going to have the time needed to avoid being ripped off? Do you know what the silver melt price is today? I bet the seller knows. Are you talking one coin or many? Since you were actively looking for coins at a pawn, do you know a reputable coin dealer? You could invite the dealer along as your "uncle". A trusted coin dealer is worth paying for his services if the deal is potentially large. Maybe share the opportunity with him. You need help unless you have money to waste. Okay, I'm done. Peace Roy
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There are plenty of other options if buying silver dollars is something you want to do. Do not think you are going to get a good deal from some random guy that just bumped into you. Call him back and cancel. Listen carefully to these other comments, there's no need to rush your collection. What do they tell kids? Stranger Danger. Seriously reconsider.
I may have been a little bit misleading in my hurried statement, he wasn't actually answering my questions and I'm not exactly sure what he was saying or asking at that moment but the conversation started quickly. He seemed very honest and not desperate at all. He really didn't seem to know much other than they were silver dollars. Didn't know what a slab was. Said his wife was taking someone to the medical center and said he and she would be available tomorrow. But again, they say serial killers don't look like, Yikes!
And also, he never mentioned a price for anything or even eluded that his wife knows either.
Thanks for all the warnings I will proceed very cautiously now...
I think I will try meeting at public Library and bring my good buddy and his license to carry. Can you do that at a library? Yikes!
You are out of your league to make this transaction. You lack the basic knowledge about silver dollars to get a fair deal and protect yourself from buying fakes. Pass on the deal as a crash course will only get you into more trouble.
The pawn shop did NOT make an offer?
Why would he seem desperate or hurried? Thieves have nerves of steel. [If he were one. ]
I've seen people come into my friend's store with fakes [$20 saint even] that they bought from casual friendly strangers advertising their inherited collection. I've seen it more than once. Ask the dealers on this board.
A neutral meeting place stops an outright robbery. On the other hand, all fakes are sold at neutral meeting places because you'll never find the guy.
Feds arrested a Pennsylvania man last year for selling fakes in multiple neighboring states. He ran ads offering to sell coins, even slabbed coins, that he inherited because he needed money. He would drive up, make the sale and disappear. Change email address and burner phone and do it again. Took them a while to find his actual identity.
If you are not expert enough to identify fakes or knowledgeable enough to price accurately, there is NO upside to this.
Even if it's legit, 95% of these collections end up being common swill. And 4.9% of then and up being common but nice. Given the thin bid/ask spread on silver dollars, it's a lot of risk to save a buck or two per coin.
But let us know what happens. There's always the 0.1%
Fishy, don't ya think?
There's a local coin guy i spend tens of thousands with every year. If I bought or sold anything in his store or even tried to, he'd ban me for life. And he should. Occasionally he'll offer me a deal, but he gets 10%.
He didn't have any coins with him. And I was under the impression he hadn't even spoke to the clerk yet. I assumed he was looking to price what he had and I happen to just walk in and started spouting across the room about looking at some coins and he over heard me. He said they have coins and stamps. So, if he had asked them for an offer I never heard it.
It does! And if it was, it was very clever.
RE: "...a crash course in silver dollars."
Drop a bag on your foot. You will learn much from that.
Working in a camera store that deals with used equipment all the time, nothing annoys us more than when people are in the store and start trying to make a deal amongst themselves. The pawnshop has rent to pay, has employees to pay, has advertising to pay, has electric to pay etc. The person came in there because they knew there was an established business there that might be able to buy their wares, whatever they were. Now the pawnshop's been kneecapped and gets nothing because you guys took it outside and bypassed him. What the guy with the coins should have done is talked to the clerk first, showed them what he wanted to sell, and allowed them the first right of refusal. THEN if no deal was to be made, nothing wrong with you guys going outside and exchanging numbers. I give him some credit for asking the clerk if it was ok for you guys to go outside, but having been on the clerks side of the counter numerous times, what was he supposed to say? He can't force someone to talk to him or not. All he can do is say don't come back here again. I've had this conversation with people numerous times in person after they went outside to exchange numbers, then came back into the shop to exclaim how excited they were about it.
That said, I'd advise against the deal for the same reasons everyone else has mentioned about not knowing enough about what is being sold to make an educated decision with your money and the scam possibilities. You can always call the guy and say you've decided the pawn shop should have first crack since you were at their establishment to start with and it's the right thing to do. It's an easy out for you. I can't tell you how many students each semester come in and look at our cameras, then go home, buy one on eBay because it's cheaper, then bring it in a week later because their film didn't turn out and I have to tell them it's because they bought a broken camera. I get it, they're trying to save some money on a student budget, but they always get burned in the end because they didn't know anything about what they were buying and couldn't make an educated purchase.
I'm curious, if the guy didn't have the coins with him, which presumably he didn't since he didn't show them to you, what was he doing in the pawnshop to start with? I guess it's possibly he just wandered in on a whim while his wife was at medical center near by. Just seems like a slight red flag to me.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
That isn't the point. It's the fact that the pawn shop owner didn't try to make the deal. VERY suspicious. There is no profit in passing off a customer to another customer.
You were spotted as a possible sucker. He moved in acting was good and you fell hook line and sinker. At the very least talk to the dealer and ask him if he recognized him. Maybe if he has a camera in the store just in case you show up missing.
I think all of the aforementioned comments in this thread, put together would make a great movie, “Pawn Shop Blues”
Get a Red Book (A Guide Book of United States Coins, by R.S. Yeoman). Coin shops sell these.
It will show you the basics like mint mark location, grading, and which ones are higher value.
You will want this just for your education on coins, even if you don't buy these coins.
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Book-United-States-Coins/dp/0794845061
On your visit, just bring the Red Book, pencil and paper and inventory the collection.
If there are grades on the holders, write those down, but on the higher value coins, try to grade them yourself.
This will give you some info for making an offer later, if you choose to do so.
Bring a magnet to test for fakes (plated steel). But this won't catch all fakes.
Better is to have a digital scale, but I bet you don't have one.
If you have a camera or a cell phone with camera, take some shots of the more valuable coins, especially the mint mark.
Bring someone with you that knows coins. Otherwise fairly certain you will end up with Chinese / Russian fakes.
Crash course will take about a year, at least.
Even though I don't even think I got a straight answer yet. About pricing. The knowledge is priceless and I had no idea how many scam artist are in my new favorite hobby. Its a jungle out there, huh. To the novel:The really strange part was he seemed to come out of now where and then after we talked outside and I was walking back to my car I looked back and he was gone. And for the record, I got really good vibes.
I am an optimist, you actually drop a rock on your foot if your eyes hurt, and if your foot hurts put pepper in your eyes
I was under the assumption that they didn't really know what they had and would let go of the collection fairly quickly. Was he setting a trap? I wasn't planning on spending more than a few hundred so if we meet and all of sudden he has prices and high prices then I will take pics, reschedule another meeting, and refer back to this thread for confirmation. Again, thanks for all the support.
Bring a magnet.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
And take a small magnet with you, It helps some times.
You are jumping in the deep end but hey that is the best way to get it done good luck just buy back and you will be okay.
Hoard the keys.
another amateur looking for his big score...
???
Smitten with DBLCs.
y
IF they are Morgan $s and IF you are planning on spending only a "few hundred", you are planning on, at best, buying 30 or 40 coins at maybe $20 each. Given that there is a $2-$4 bid/ask spread, you are tryinng to spend $500-ish to save less than $100 while risking losing $100 if you end up buying culls or losing $450 + if you end up buying chinese fakes worth 99 cents each.
There is just no upside to the risk, especially if you don't know silver $s.
And if it is legit, don't expect to be welcomed back to the pawn shop ever again.
After you buy them, you're going to have to hang around the pawn shop and try to move them onto the next guy. I don't think you should say your wife's grandpa died though, sounds too suspicious. Think about it, if you inherited coins, what's the first thing you would ask yourself? Everybody on this forum would ask, How much is this worth? And then get them appraised by a real coin guy not some pawn shop clerk. And certainly you would not try to sell them to some random customer in a pawn shop that didn't really know much about silver dollars.
I don't even think I got a straight answer yet. About pricing.
Okay. Here's a price for you. They are worth nothing. The pawn shop wasn't even interested and if I had a pawn shop, I would say Can I see them first?
Good luck Mr CoinscratchFever. Let us know how your meeting goes with Mr Grifter.
I really cannot add much to the above advice.... To me, it sounds like a scam. If you do go through with the meeting, be prepared..... have security, meet in a public place. Do not go alone...There is no way you can get a 'crash course' in silver dollars overnight. Way to much to learn... Best of luck, let us know what happens... Cheers, RickO
Yes, I have one I use for pennies but still don't know how much the dollar weighs, going to google.
Maybe so, but I will have to learn my way. And I will post the results. The good problem for me is that not everybody is as smart as you.
go to eBay and look at grades and sales - pay attention to holders and folders and storage methods that look 30 years old.
then go to alibaba and look at Morgans that sell for a couple bucks apiece and sets.
know the current silver value and content -> coininflation
don't spend more money than you can afford to lose, because when you start with coins you will lose money
have an idea about what you are going to do with them once you have them
Okay, just got off the phone and we are meeting in 2 hours in a public place and with his wife who is a 26 year veteran of the Houston police dept. Apparently, this is only 1/4 of the loot as the other 3 siblings split the collection. He said he will bring a variety sampler because Yesterday I mentioned proof sets as well.
So, he sounds very legit and if he is. I still have a learned a lot from ya'll guys and realize how gullible I sounded.
Will post results later tonight.
I believe you said You and the seller exchanged name and info.
take that info to your local sheriff or police and have them check him out for "prior knowns".
If he is a known crook they will assist you, if he is clean, well u will be on your own
If not verified, all the ‘police veteran’ angle means is they’re bringing a gun. Had someone try to pull that nonsense on me with a french bulldog. Be careful.