<< <i>JT I have no respect for any order that doesnt have at least one Steve Largent card in it.
Its no wonder you got hammered on grades my friend
sq >>
Actually, there was a Largent. A pack fresh 81 Topps that I thought would 10. Got an 8. Like I said, I got hammered. >>
I think the graders get pissed when they get a 200+ card order dropped on their desk..lol
Always seems the bigger orders are the ones that get slammed.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> I think the graders get pissed when they get a 200+ card order dropped on their desk..lol
Always seems the bigger orders are the ones that get slammed.
Jason >>
I've usually done pretty well, although my best percentages of 10's have been on 100 card or less orders. Catch 22 though, get a price break for a bigger order, or pay more for the smaller orders. If you get the 10's on the smaller orders, it's a no-brainer. I think from now on, that's the route I'll go. Gosh...just hammered. 160+ 9's? Come on. Still pi$$ed about the JH JOhnson rc too. They creased a gorgeous 81 Hampton rc on me a couple years ago, came back a 4. Had a big semi circle crease on the top of the card, presumably where they pulled it out of the CS1. I didn't make a big deal out of it, but I will complain about this one when I see it. 3 cards that are absolute WTF? There are a number of crack and resubmits, especially with the pre-1972 special now. I'll pay $8 to have them graded right.
Ok, so we haven't talked REAL football here in awhile...With the preliminary nominee list going out to HOF voters a few weeks ago, I've been putting together a list of potential future HOFers using ONLY but ALL retired (soon eligile) and/or current eligible players. Now the word potential can mean many things...It is both guys who are considered LOCKS as well as other fringe HOF-ish players who have at least made a nomination list in the past few years. Some have advanced almost yearly to the finals and semifinals but haven't gotten in yet. Obviously most of those will rank higher on these lists. Others maybe nominated once a few years ago and then have never been mentioned since.
Anyway, here's what I have, the rankings use all of the above information as well as my own personal opinions. Let me know if this looks about right or if you see anyone out of place or notice anyone missing (sorry about the format, copy and paste from spreadsheet):
QB Brett Favre Ken Stabler (2009 last chance) Ken Anderson Phil Simms Randall Cunningham Jim Plunkett Joe Theismann Boomer Esiason Doug Williams Drew Bledsoe Rich Gannon Steve McNair Doug Flutie Vinny Testaverde Danny White Bernie Kosar Jim Hart (2009 last chance)
RB Emmitt Smith Marshall Faulk Curtis Martin Jerome Bettis Terrell Davis Roger Craig Tiki Barber Ricky Watters Herschel Walker Mike Alstott Priest Holmes Eddie George Corey Dillon Ottis Anderson Larry Centers Eric Metcalf Greg Pruitt (2009 last chance) George Rogers Gerald Riggs
WR Jerry Rice Cris Carter Tim Brown Andre Reed Cliff Branch Jimmy Smith Henry Ellard Gary Clark Harold Carmichael (2009 last chance) Isaac Curtis (2009 last chance) Keyshawn Johnson Herman Moore Dwight Clark Roy Green Mark Duper Mark Clayton Sterling Sharpe Irving Fryar Louis Lipps Wesley Walker
TE Shannon Sharpe Mark Bavaro Todd Christensen Ben Coates Brent Jones Russ Francis Jay Novacek Steve Jordan
OL Willie Roaf, T Randall McDaniel, G Bob Kuechenberg, G (2009 last chance) Russ Grimm, G Dermontti Dawson, C Will Shields, G Joe Jacoby, T Jim Covert, T Tony Boselli, T Steve Wisniewski, G Mike Kenn, T Richmond Webb, T Chris Hinton, G/T Lomas Brown, T Jay Hilgenberg, C Kent Hull, C Jeff Van Note, C Kent Hill, G/T Jim Lachey, T Mark May, T/G/C Mark Stepnoski Ray Donaldson, C Bruce Armstrong, T Nate Newton, G Henry Lawrence, G/T
DE Bruce Smith, DE Richard Dent, DE Charles Haley, DE/LB Chris Doleman, DE/LB Ed "Too Tall" Jones, DE Jacob Green, DE Jim Jeffcoat, DE Charles Mann, DE Dexter Manley, DE Mark Gastineau, DE Clyde Simmons, DE
DT John Randle, DT Warren Sapp, DT Cortez Kennedy, DT Joe Klecko, DE/DT/NT Fred Smerlas, NT Bryant Young, DT Ray Childress, DT/DE
LB Derrick Thomas Kevin Greene Rickey Jackson Karl Mecklenburg Robert Brazile (2009 last chance) Sam Mills Clay Matthews Cornelius Bennett Hardy Nickerson Darryl Talley Ken Harvey Pat Swilling Levon Kirkland Wilber Marshall Matt Blair Jesse Armstead John Offerdahl Brad Van Pelt Chris Spielman Jessie Tuggle
CB Rod Woodson Deion Sanders Aeneas Williams Lester Hayes Albert Lewis Eric Allen Louis Wright Raymond Clayborn Everson Walls
S Donnie Shell LeRoy Butler Steve At--water Kenny Easley Darren Woodson Joey Browner Nolan Cromwell Carnell Lake David Fulcher Fred Marion
ST Ray Guy, P Gary Anderson, K Steve Tasker, ST/WR Reggie Roby, P Nick Lowery, K Elbert Shelley, ST/S
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I might be in the minority on this one, but I don't think Stabler will ever get in the HOF. Aside from the fact that I personally think he is a very unworthy candidate, I don't see him getting enough love from the voters to get in. He had some truly awful years. The only way I see it happening is if the voters decide that they just have to put a QB in (before Favre) because there hasn't been one elected in years. I think Ken Anderson is a far more deserving candidate. I also think Simms deserves the HOF more than Stabler, and I don't think he'll get in either. Stranger things than Stabler getting in the HOF have happened though. I mean geez, Joe Namath is in. Just my 2 cents...
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I think you pretty much nailed all of them. The hardest group is always the O-line. I would have to think that one of those long time Dallas Linemen that helped Emmitt to the spot that he is will make their way into the HOF. Maybe Nate needs to move up a bit. Think Sterling Sharpe might be a little higher as well but for sure an on the fence type of candidate. If not for his neck injury I think he would be in the HOF by now. More of those Rb's might get in than we think. If you read Claytons article on the ESPN site about HOF numbers for Rb's and the future of Rb's stats with the league wide progression to two feature back teams, some more might slide in. But he also states the in the article that the change might help under-represented groups of players in the HOF as well.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Ohy no . . . Joe Namath! Now you've opened a can of worms. While I've never subscribed to the hype about him being a Top-10 QB of All-time, and he wasn't the best of his generation, he was a pioneer and a huge reason for the escalated acceptance and success of the AFL. He was their poster child. The brash, wild-child who lived large and lived on the edge. Although one of the most unattractive men, he somehow was a sex symbol and the face of the new breed of football players. It didn't hurt that he had some very successful seasons in the NFL.
Stabler, in my mind, is a borderline candidate. He's one that I don't have any problem seeing left out, but I would also understand if he were elected.
The one that still stymies me is former Eagles linebacker Maxie Baughan (BTW, I need a PSA 8 or 9 '61 Fleer if anyone has one). I still don't understand why he doesn't get any recognition or consideration. 9 Pro Bowls in his 10 year career, 3 All-Pro selections, and George Allen LOVED him.
I don't think Stabler will get in this year either, at least not as a modern candidate. He was a finalist last year and Anderson was a finalist in 1998 which is why they are ranked so highly. Stabler will head to the Senior pool after this year, where he will be the top QB there with the most apperances as a final 15 modern candidate. I think eventually he will get selected as a Senior guy and will be elected. Everyone knows his stat line isn't great, but you can't discount his last minute heroics. If the Steel Curtain was in the 60's rather than the 70's, Stabler would have multiple rings and would have been in the HOF long ago.
I would also (personally) rank Sterling Sharpe MUCH higher. But for whatever reason, he hasn't even made the NOMINEE list since the Class of 2006 nominee list. Everyone eligible and ranked ahead of him has been at least a nominee since then (class of 2007 and/or 2008). Even though his career was short, he was DOMINANT when he played, and i've always thought that should count a little more than longevity.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Even though his career was short, he was DOMINANT when he played, and i've always thought that should count a little more than longevity. >>
It has . . . All one needs to do is look at Gale Sayers. Or Sandy Koufax in baseball. The other DOMINANT player with a short career who is worthy of consideration, but won't get in because of his lack of "career" numbers is Terrell Davis. The fact that 3 other RB's put up great numbers with virtually the same OL doesn't really help his case, but . . .
<< <i>Ohy no . . . Joe Namath! Now you've opened a can of worms. While I've never subscribed to the hype about him being a Top-10 QB of All-time, and he wasn't the best of his generation, he was a pioneer and a huge reason for the escalated acceptance and success of the AFL. He was their poster child. The brash, wild-child who lived large and lived on the edge. Although one of the most unattractive men, he somehow was a sex symbol and the face of the new breed of football players. It didn't hurt that he had some very successful seasons in the NFL.
Stabler, in my mind, is a borderline candidate. He's one that I don't have any problem seeing left out, but I would also understand if he were elected.
The one that still stymies me is former Eagles linebacker Maxie Baughan (BTW, I need a PSA 8 or 9 '61 Fleer if anyone has one). I still don't understand why he doesn't get any recognition or consideration. 9 Pro Bowls in his 10 year career, 3 All-Pro selections, and George Allen LOVED him. >>
The Stabler/Namath comparison is actually a good one. The "stat" guys always say they aren't worthy, but they had the immeasurables that many guys with huge stat lines don't have (Dan Fouts??)..
Baughan falls into the endless pool of Senior eligible LBs..he was good, but look at all the other Senior who also aren't in the HOF:
Tommy Nobis Chuck Howley Randy Gradishar Dave Robinson Chris Hanburger LeeRoy Jordan Andy Russell
A couple of these will eventually make it in, but the others will wither away into oblivion...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It has . . . All one needs to do is look at Gale Sayers. Or Sandy Koufax in baseball. The other DOMINANT player with a short career who is worthy of consideration, but won't get in because of his lack of "career" numbers is Terrell Davis. The fact that 3 other RB's put up great numbers with virtually the same OL doesn't really help his case, but . . . >>
True, there are exceptions. But those were guys who were the most dominant of a GENERATION. If Jerry Rice had gotten hurt early in his career, I think he still would have gotten in with lesser numbers. He was the best player in the game during his prime. While Sterling was great, he was just another great, not THE great.
Terrell Davis will be an interesting case as time goes by...Obviously, he isn't getting in anytime soon as all of those ahead of him go in..But what about after Martin and Bettis get in? He might be the top RB on the ballot for a few years. Heck, he made the final 25 last year. Give it 10 years and I think he could slip in...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ohy no . . . Joe Namath! Now you've opened a can of worms. >>
Namath being in the HOF is all about hype and persona, rather than stats. He made it because he predicted his team would win a Super Bowl in which he went on to throw ZERO touchdowns. Plus, like Stabler, he has a lot more picks than TDs in his career. Now I know that was pretty much the standard for QBs in the earlier days of the NFL, but not during the eras in which Namath and Stabler played. If it were up to me, they's both stay on the outside looking in. Lynn Swann too. And Paul Hornung. Maybe even Ditka. Man did he fall off after a great 3-4 year start to his career. Apparently that didn't matter to the voters. I'm actually not suggesting that the HOF be much more exclusive than it is. But I absolutely believe some player's personas superceded their stats.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Ohy no . . . Joe Namath! Now you've opened a can of worms. >>
Namath being in the HOF is all about hype and persona, rather than stats. He made it because he predicted his team would win a Super Bowl in which he went on to throw ZERO touchdowns. Plus, like Stabler, he has a lot more picks than TDs in his career. Now I know that was pretty much the standard for QBs in the earlier days of the NFL, but not during the eras in which Namath and Stabler played. If it were up to me, they's both stay on the outside looking in. Lynn Swann too. And Paul Hornung. Maybe even Ditka. Man did he fall off after a great 3-4 year start to his career. Apparently that didn't matter to the voters. I'm actually not suggesting that the HOF be much more exclusive than it is. But I absolutely believe some player's personas superceded their stats. >>
If you are judging by what you read in the stat line then I understand your concept. but true concolusions can not be reached by simply adding up/comparing the numbers. Paul Warfield isn't even CLOSE to being in the top 10 WR stats of all-time...But if anyone tells me that Warfield isn't a top 10 WR of all-time, i'll know that they simply haven't seen the guy play...
You also can not discount the importance of those personas to the game of football. Its a game of physical contact and intimidation. All of those low stat guys you mentioned had a big impact vs. the teams they played simply by the fear they put in the opposing teams due to their "personas"..its not everything, but you can't discount it.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Out of all the QB,s on your list other the Farve the only 1 think that maybe should be in is Hart I think if you asked most D coaches from 70,S who on the list did you most fear or game plan to stop and Hart would be the man and if want to cosider a nitch guy someone who did change the game somewhat again someone you game planed to stop it was Cunningham
<< <i>Out of all the QB,s on your list other the Farve the only 1 think that maybe should be in is Hart I think if you asked most D coaches from 70,S who on the list did you most fear or game plan to stop and Hart would be the man and if want to cosider a nitch guy someone who did change the game somewhat again someone you game planed to stop it was Cunningham >>
Well, its Hart's last year, maybe he will be nominated again. Last time he made the initial list of 100 or so nominees was 2006. I would be absolutely shocked if he even made the semis/top 25..but hey, never say never...
Playing for the 70's Cardinals probably kills his chances alone...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I would have to think that one of those long time Dallas Linemen that helped Emmitt to the spot that he is will make their way into the HOF. Maybe Nate needs to move up a bit. >>
Larry Allen will most likely be the only Emmitt Smith blocker to make the HOF. Erik Williams was on his way if he could have stayed healthy. All the others, they played great as a unit, but none were ever all that great on their own merit. Much like the great Redskins O-Line from the 80's..I think Grimm will eventually make it, but thats probably it. the rest were good solid guys, but never really stood out as HOF players.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think Terrell Davis brings up the huge question. Longevity or dominance. I would put Terrell Davis and Eddie George right next to each other. Terrell dominated for 3-4 years while Eddie was consistant for almost 10. I think if you let one in you have to let the other. My personal opinion is, I dont think either will get in. The only player that helps Terrell's case is Gayle Sayers, he only played for what 6-7 years, which is about the same time frames as Terrell, but Terrell didnt do half of what Gayle did. Just a thought.
Rob
Looking for: Heisman Rookies Heisman Collection set singles Eddie George PSA rookies
I love these type's of discussions, but, unfortuantly, I have nothing to add. I only became a football fan in the late 90's when I moved to indy and Manning got drafted. That's probably because I grew up in Bengals territory....LOL>>
<< <i>I think Terrell Davis brings up the huge question. Longevity or dominance. I would put Terrell Davis and Eddie George right next to each other. Terrell dominated for 3-4 years while Eddie was consistant for almost 10. I think if you let one in you have to let the other. My personal opinion is, I dont think either will get in. The only player that helps Terrell's case is Gayle Sayers, he only played for what 6-7 years, which is about the same time frames as Terrell, but Terrell didnt do half of what Gayle did. Just a thought.
Rob >>
Eddie George has zero MVP awards and zero Super Bowl rings..That's a HUGE difference...Not to mention his yards per carry wasn't very good. Personally, I never thought much of George...To me he fits in right there with Corey Dillon, although I wouldn't have a problem putting those guys above Alstott and Holmes...I think the others, Roger Craig, Tiki Barber, Ricky Watters and Herschel Walker were all better backs than George and Dillon.
Davis made the final 25 semifinals last year, and I think there are many HOF voters on both sides of the issue.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Lemar Parrish? Kenny Anderson? Isaac Curtis, Boomer Esiason, Bob Trumpy, and Pete Johnson? C'mon, make a case for them! They're all a notch below, but they're Bengals!!!
<< <i>I love these type's of discussions, but, unfortuantly, I have nothing to add. I only became a football fan in the late 90's when I moved to indy and Manning got drafted. That's probably because I grew up in Bengals territory....LOL>> >>
Dave, there's plenty of game footage out there on most of these guys...No excuses!
lol Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ok gang, here is what I have left of my HOF set. I'll post this here now and on the BST board later. If there is anything you want, just let me know. My set isn't officially retired yet so that you can check scans if they are in my set.
It's been a fun ride.
Please make offers on anything you want, if you don't have VCP I can get pricing for you. I'll be right around VCP average for this stuff.
1948 Bowman 61 Alex Wojciechowicz PSA 5 1950 Bowman 9 Tony Canadeo PSA 5 ***SOLD*** 1950 Bowman 35 Joe Perry PSA 5 1955 Bowman 42 John Henry Johnson PSA 7 1955 Topps All-American 28 Mel Hein PSA 6 1955 Topps All-American 84 Ace Parker PSA 6 1956 Topps 41 Roosevelt Brown PSA 7 ***SOLD*** 1956 Topps 44 Joe Schmidt PSA 6 1959 Topps 51 Sam Huff PSA 6 1959 Topps 140 Bobby Mitchell PSA 8 1960 Topps 56 Forrest Gregg PSA 8 1962 Fleer 16 Billy Shaw PSA 7 OC 1965 Philadelphia 41 Paul Warfield PSA 7 1966 Philadelphia 134 Bob Brown PSA 7 1967 Philadelphia 165 Jackie Smith PSA 7 1970 Topps 25 Jan Stenerud PSA 8 1970 Topps 43 Elvin Bethea PSA 8 ***SOLD*** 1971 Topps 188 Roger Wehrli PSA 7 1971 Topps 210 Charlie Sanders PSA 7 1972 Topps 93 Ted Hendricks PSA 8 1972 Topps 240 Larry Little PSA 8 ***SOLD*** 1972 Topps 244 Charlie Joiner PSA 8 1973 Topps 89 Franco Harris PSA 8 1973 Topps 115 Jack Ham PSA 8 1973 Topps 322 Dan Dierdorf PSA 8 1973 topps 367 Bob Kuechenberg PSA 8 1974 Topps 383 John Hannah PSA 8 1975 Topps 490 Cliff Harris PSA 8 OC 1976 Topps 220 Jack Lambert PSA 8 1977 Topps 29 Lee Roy Selmon PSA 8 1977 Topps 50 Mike Haynes PSA 8 1977 Topps 380 Dave Casper PSA 8 1978 Topps 217 Fred Dean PSA 8 1978 Topps 315 Tony Dorsett PSA 8 1978 Topps 320 John Stallworth PSA 9 1979 Topps 310 James Lofton PSA 8 1981 Topps 150 Kellen Winslow PSA 9 1981 Topps 194 Art Monk PSA 9 1981 Topps 316 Dan Hampton PSA 9 1982 Topps 51 Anthony Munoz PSA 9 1983 Topps 38 Mike Singletary PSA 9 1984 Topps 111 Howie Long PSA 9 1984 Topps 143 Andre Tippett PSA 9 1984 Topps 222 Jim Covert PSA 9 1984 Topps 280 Eric Dickerson PSA 9 1984 Topps 286 Jackie Slater PSA 9 1984 Topps 380 Darrell Green PSA 9 1984 Topps 381 Russ Grimm PSA 9 1985 Topps 24 Richard Dent PSA 8 1985 Topps 80 Henry Ellard PSA 9 1985 Topps 251 Warren Moon PSA 9 1985 Topps 253 Mike Munchak PSA 9 1985 Topps 325 Irving Fryar PSA 9 1986 Topps 388 Andre Reed PSA 9 1987 Topps 207 Gary Zimmerman PSA 9 1989 Score 18 Michael Irvin PSA 10 1989 Score 78 Rod Woodson PSA 10 1989 Score 86 Tim Brown PSA 10 1989 Score 109 Bruce Matthews PSA 10 1989 Score 211 Thurman Thomas PSA 10 1989 Score 246 Deion Sanders PSA 8 1989 Score 258 Derrick Thomas PSA 9 1989 Score 263 Steve At-water PSA 10 1991 Stadium Club 60 Ricky Watters PSA 10 1993 Bowman Foil 421 Willie Roaf PSA 10 1996 SP 7 Terrell Owens PSA 8.5 1996 SP 5 Eddie George PSA 9 1997 Finest 46 Rodney Harrison PSA 10 1997 SP Authentic 25 Corey Dillon PSA 9 1999 SP Authentic 111 Champ Bailey PSA 8 2001 Topps Chrome 221 LaDainian Tomlinson PSA 9
I am surprised you have Will Shields listed so low. He has been discussed on this board as a stone-cold lock, yet he is listed below guys like Kuech who is (literally) on his last legs before being sent to the senior pool and Russ Grimm who has yet to make the final cut. Your thought process here?
I am surprised you have Will Shields listed so low. He has been discussed on this board as a stone-cold lock, yet he is listed below guys like Kuech who is (literally) on his last legs before being sent to the senior pool and Russ Grimm who has yet to make the final cut. Your thought process here?
Jasen >>
Willie Roaf is the only first ballot stone cold lock of the O-linemen. McDaniel, my prediction, will go in the Class of 2010 with Kuechenberg getting in 2009 in his last shot. Kuechenberg has been a finalist 7 times now. He'll either go in this year or he will fall off this list and into the Senior pool. If its not Kuech this year, then McDaniel will get in, but one of the 2 will. Grimm has been a finalist 4 times and I think will get in before Shields. He was the best blocker on that great Redskins line that won multiple Super Bowls. Dirt Dawson is also far more accomplished than Shields. Shields has more Pro Bowls which is all fine and dandy, but Dawson was a 6 time 1st team All-Pro and the best at his position in the 90's. Sheilds was an All-Pro only twice. Shields wasn't the best guard or even in the top 3 or 4 of his era. I think Shields is the last of the OL list who will get in, but he will have to wait awhile. If Randall McDaniel can't get in on his first 2 tries, most certainly Shields will not either. With the possibility of adding Jon Ogden and Larry Allen to this list before next season, you can add 2 more guys who will get in before Shields.
All the rest are longshots, IMO.
Thats my thinking anyway, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Also, I didn't realize the LB pool was so weak. Wow, it really falls off a cliff after DT!!!!!! >>
Junior Seau and Derrick Brooks will be adding to this list pretty soon...lol
Kevin Greene is probably the only other guy on the LB list who has a descent shot at eventually making the HOF. Then again, I would have never guessed Andre Tippett would leapfrog over the more deserving players (Like DT) last year...You never really know where the voters are on certain guys. I mean Art Monk got in before CRIS CARTER! You can't discount how the voters judge the length of time players have waited to get in. Monk got a boost last year because he's been waiting forever and it was Carter's first shot. Kuechenberg has gotten VERY close the last few years. He even made the final cut once but didn't get the 80% votes. This being his last chance, i think he can get those last couple of votes that will put him over the top.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason, What DVDs would you recommend viewing? Is there a series available? I would love to watch some of these HOF'ers in action. Thanks... Dave >>
This is one of my favorites. Almost totally highlights and not a bunch of fluff. It's also the cheapest and i would recommend it for your first DVD to watch, based on how well you like it will tell you if you should purchase others/more extensive ones.
Of course the "America's Game" series is outstanding. You can watch these for free on NFL Network. If you haven't seen these, I HIGHLY recommend. Each episode tells the story of all the Super Bowl Champions through the years. Not just the game, but how that team made its way there.
This one is so-so...Most of it is NFL Films type programs and doesn't really give you many good highlights. 70% of it is fluff, but it does have some worthwhile highlights.
Lastly, this is a must have. Even though they wasted a lot of DVD space on induction speeches and you can find MANY of the same highlights on the much cheaper "The Greatest" DVD which I listed in my first link. But this one covers every HOFer in some capacity.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Now if you just tell me 99% for sure who the SR,s will be heck i would pay for that info lol
As always Your list is right on the mark in my opion J
I agree by the way Hart will not make it Dont think any QB on the list other then Farve will i was just trying to use the logic Ron Wolf mentioned in the article you posted out the the Qb,s i think Hart and Cunningham would be the 2 that if you were designing a game plan you might say we need to stop these guys.
Hart should make it in just for being well known playing for the Cards in the 70,s how many Cards can you name of the top of your head lol
<< <i>By the way here is my sleeper pick Sam Mills >>
Absolutely. He's hurt by his lack of Pro Bowls and All-Pros, but he is one of the most underrated players on that entire list.
It will be interesting to see what happens after Derrick Thomas gets in (which I predict will be this year). I think Kevin Greene has the best shot after that, but Rickey Jackson (who made the semis last year), Mechlenberg, Mills, Clay Matthews and also Cornelius Bennett could get some play down the line. Much like Tippett got that pushed him in over DT and Greene. Any one of those guys could get a push and get in. I think they all have strong arguments for their inclusion.
Predicting the seniors is like predicting the lottery..lol...It really all depends on which 5 senior voters they select to go to Canton and pick the 2 finalists from the list of senior semi-finalist. The majority of the "old guard" group from last year (and also the year Freidman and Fritz Pollard went in) shouldn't be going again, as they do a rotation between the 9 senior voters. So I'm hopeful that we can have some choices that actually make sense and who are actually WORTHY of being inducted.
My top 10 Seniors for this year:
MICK TINGELHOFF TOMMY NOBIS
At least one of these 2 should have went in last year instead of wasting a spot on Goldberg. They've got to start opening it up to the monster list of HOF worthy Senior eligible LBs. If not Nobis, then Howley would be a solid choice as well.
CHUCK HOWLEY CLAUDE HUMPHREY L.C. GREENWOOD AL WISTERT RANDY GRADISHAR DAVE ROBINSON JERRY KRAMER BOB HAYES
Missing from this list: Cliff Harris and Johnny Robinson. I don't think they will select a DB 2 years in a row, and I also don't think they will select a KC Chief 2 years in a row. I think Harris and Robinson are in the top 10 overall candidates, but won't be this year because of that. There really aren't many skill players amongst the seniors who stand out. Bob Hayes, even though he got denied a few years back, still makes the semifinals every year. I also predict that within the next 2 years, a minimum of 3 out of the 4 senior candidates will be from the defensive side of the ball. 2010 SHOULD be Cliff Harris and one of the DE's, either Greenwood or Humphrey.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Thanks Jason, I just placed my order for the first DVD you listed.
Dave >>
Best highlights:
Gale Sayers runs (simply amazing, Barry Sanders would be jealous) Dick Lane tearing guys heads off when clotheslines were legal Don Hutson scorching defenses John Mackey breaking 10+ tackles on one play The size of Marion Motley busting through a hole (he was bigger than the linemen..lol) and of course Jim Brown running through, over, around and past everybody I could name off 20 others...lol
I think you'll enjoy it, it moves along very nicely with the highlights unlike some of the other DVDs which are slow and clunky.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hart should make it in just for being well known playing for the Cards in the 70,s how many Cards can you name of the top of your head lol >>
Ok, I'll give it a shot, but its not fair they were my team!! lol
QB Jim Hart RB Terry Metcalf (Erics dad, unbelievably elusive moves you woudnt belive, but fumbled way too much!), Jim Otis (power back) OL Dan Dierdorf, Roger Finnie, Tom Banks, Bob Young (worlds strongest man at one point) (this OL gave up only 5 sacks in one whole year, an NFL record that stood for over 20 years until the Dolphins and Marino broke it with only 4!!) TE Jackie Smith, JV Cain (died tragically on practice field of heart defect) WR Mel Gray (speed burner), Ike Harris, Pat Tilley (position rec. 3rd down guy, very tough, one of my favorites!)
CB Roger Werhli (one of the best ever!) I heard a stat once that he was so feared that the offense only threw on his side 8 times ALL year and 3 were intercepted!!)
LB Mike Sensibaugh DT John Zook
K Jim Bakken (money! great kicker) P Terry Joyce (horrible!!) would routinely shank punts for 10 to 20 net yards once punted a ball backwards! (only time I can remember my Dad cussing in front of me!!) lol
NFC East Champions 1973 11-3 (if my memory is correct?) NFC Wild Card 1975? 10-4 (again not positive)
What about evil wicked mean and nasty CONRAD DOBLER!!!
See if this refreshes your memory...Remember anything about these other guys?
1974 Cardinals lineup (10-4, won the East but lost 30-14 to the Vikings in the playoffs): Coach- Don Coryell QB-Jim Hart RB-Terry Metcalf FB-Jim Otis WR-Earl Thomas WR-Mel Gray TE-Jackie Smith LT-Ernie McMillen LG-Bob Young C-Tom Brahaney (Tom banks only played in one game due to injury) RG-Conrad Dobler RT-Dan Dierdorf
They also went 11-3 in 1975 winning the Division for a 2nd straight year and 10-4 in 1976 just missing the playoffs. In 75, they once again lost their first playoff game to the LA Rams 35-23. The Rams had 237 yards rushing in the game, with Lawrence McCutcheon going for 202 on 37 carries. They also ran back 2 Jim Hart INTs for TDs (one by Jack Youngblood).
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ugly 9 indeed. I've seen a number of (and I've owned) 1974s with odd staining like that, all in PSA 9 holders. That top left corner and that stain don't appear to be 9 worthy IMO. I bet it gets a prett penny though.
<< <i>Ugly 9 indeed. I've seen a number of (and I've owned) 1974s with odd staining like that, all in PSA 9 holders. That top left corner and that stain don't appear to be 9 worthy IMO. I bet it gets a prett penny though. >>
I've owned MANY 1970's PSA 9 cards with the liver spot...Anyone know what it is or what causes it? Probably just something with the cardboard stock is my guess, so it's really not a "stain", but definitely an ugly imperfection.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The ones I had it was definitely a stain as it went through the card on a few of them. Same sort of color and size on just about all of them too. Mine were pretty limited to 1974 topps though. I've seen a number of 1975 and 1979 topps that have a weird white fish-eye on the borders too. I wonder if there was something in the cutting machine, maybe a lubricant of some kind or something. All of mine seemed to have the stain towards one edge or the other. Never in the middle of the card.
"...and I also don't think they will select a KC Chief 2 years in a row."
Take that back Jason. I was really upset they did not put Derrick Thomas in last year.
Mark
PS: Sorry to see you break your set Envoy.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>"...and I also don't think they will select a KC Chief 2 years in a row."
Take that back Jason. I was really upset they did not put Derrick Thomas in last year.
Mark
PS: Sorry to see you break your set Envoy. >>
I was talking strictly SENIOR candidates Mark..Read above where I am talking LBs and you'll see that I believe DT WILL get in this year as one of the modern candidates. I agree, it was a mistake for them to put Tippett in over Thomas. Tippett is borderline deserving, but Thomas should be a lock. He was a dominant pass rusher. Thank the Patriots undefeated season for that push Tippett got.
My 5 moderns: Rod Woodson Bruce Smith Cris Carter Derrick Thomas Bob Kuechenberg or Randall McDaniel
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was watching the NFL network today and the "10 greatest pass rushers". Cant remember the whole list, but Deacon Jones was #1 followed by Reggie White, LT, and Bruce Smith.
The noted that a player once had 17 unoffical sacks in 1 game. I did a google search and found this.....
Norm "Wildman" Willey (born August 22, 1927 in Chicago Heights, Illinois) was an American football defensive lineman in the NFL. He went to two Pro Bowls during his 8 year career. He was credited with an unofficial 17 sacks in one contest.
Thats just amazing. Too bad theres no game tape. I wonder if anyone ever tried to go back and view game tape to try to get som #'s for those before the sack became and offical stat in 1984?
<< <i>I was watching the NFL network today and the "10 greatest pass rushers". Cant remember the whole list, but Deacon Jones was #1 followed by Reggie White, LT, and Bruce Smith.
The noted that a player once had 17 unoffical sacks in 1 game. I did a google search and found this.....
Norm "Wildman" Willey (born August 22, 1927 in Chicago Heights, Illinois) was an American football defensive lineman in the NFL. He went to two Pro Bowls during his 8 year career. He was credited with an unofficial 17 sacks in one contest.
Thats just amazing. Too bad theres no game tape. I wonder if anyone ever tried to go back and view game tape to try to get som #'s for those before the sack became and offical stat in 1984?
Reggie White passed Taylor and was crowned by the NFL and Elias Sports Bureau, the statistical arm of the NFL, as the all-time sack leader. It was amid this backdrop that another individual was asking many of the same questions that I was. Hall of Fame DE Deacon Jones proclaimed that it was he, not White, who was the NFL’s all-time sack king. Jones said to anyone who would listen, "Since when does ‘all-time’ begin in 1982?"
Attempting to prove Jones’ claims was a tedious task, especially since only a few teams had published team sack records in their media guides. So, with the help of a partner, Nick Webster, we traveled to every NFL city and read every available "play-by-play." A play-by-play is a game summary that is used by Elias to compile all NFL statistics. Additionally, I was able to research old game films in Mt. Laurel, N.J., the home of NFL Films, to fill in where a play-by-play may have lacked.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cool list Jason., I wonder how Tilley got 17 in a game and doesnt crack that list having an 8 year career. You would think that he would be up there. Maybe not enough game tape exists from that far back?
<< <i>Cool list Jason., I wonder how Tilley got 17 in a game and doesnt crack that list having an 8 year career. You would think that he would be up there. Maybe not enough game tape exists from that far back? >>
That's part of it...Keep in mind, the 17 sack thing is totally unconfirmed. Many times, in the old play-by-play records, the scorers would count a QB tackle, with or without the ball... Even if he'd already thrown the pass. It would be the equivalent of QB knockdowns of today, and they wouldn't count as sacks. The pre 1960's data is still fairly inconsistent though because there is not film tape of every game. Even some of the official play-by-play records are hard to decipher.
It is what it is...Willey was selected to 2 Pro Bowls and was a 1-time 1st Team All-Pro during an 8 year career. Here's a story write up Dr. Z on this issue:
NFL Films has a piece on former Eagles defensive end Norm (Wild Man) Willey in which he claims he had 17 sacks in a game. The feature is very entertaining, with Willey maintaining throughout that people didn't believe him when he told them about his exploits that day. Count me as one of those nonbelievers, because I happened to be at that game: Philadelphia Eagles 14, New York Giants 10, Polo Grounds, Oct. 26, 1952.
Philadelphia had defensive ends Willey and Pete Pihos "crashing," as rushing the passer was called then, as opposed to the old "boxing" strategy, or playing the run first. The Giants tried to block the ends with their guards, who couldn't get outside in time. It was frightening to watch. My chart has New York quarterbacks Charley Conerly and Freddie (Needle) Benners going down 14 times, with Willey collecting eight of the sacks, which weren't so named until years later, and Pihos getting six. Willey's eight probably would have been a record (as would the Eagles' 14), except the NFL didn't recognize individual sack totals until 30 years later. That's sad because many of the great pass rushers before the '80s will never get their due.
Willey, Pihos, Doug Atkins, Gino Marchetti -- their numbers are lost. Aside from the players, no one has been more discouraged about this than John Turney, a 36-year-old gift shop owner from Alamogordo, N.Mex., who has pored over play-by-play charts and viewed hundreds of reels of film in an attempt to establish accurate totals for as many old-timers as he can. His research goes back to around 1960. "Before that, there are only a few bits and pieces of information," he says.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Earlier in the thread, there was mention of Kevin Greene. During his playing days, I was set up at a show that he was signing at in Rochester, NY. The show was a dud, so we had some time to hang out with the signers. For LUNCH, he had 9 Big Mac meals. An awesome display that I have never forgotten. I don't think that he was full!! Greg
Comments
<< <i>JT
I have no respect for any order that doesnt have at least one Steve Largent card in it.
Its no wonder you got hammered on grades my friend
sq >>
Actually, there was a Largent. A pack fresh 81 Topps that I thought would 10. Got an 8. Like I said, I got hammered.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>
<< <i>JT
I have no respect for any order that doesnt have at least one Steve Largent card in it.
Its no wonder you got hammered on grades my friend
sq >>
Actually, there was a Largent. A pack fresh 81 Topps that I thought would 10. Got an 8. Like I said, I got hammered. >>
I think the graders get pissed when they get a 200+ card order dropped on their desk..lol
Always seems the bigger orders are the ones that get slammed.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What did that Butkus psa 9 go for at the auction? >>
$11,166.03 with the juice... >>
Hey E Pluribus Unum - the link to your Steve Largent Master Set isn't working ... must have changed when the registy was changed ... >>
Thanks for the heads up Wof, my Bellingham neighbor to the north!!
I had my IT department, also known here on the boards as Envoy make the necessary fixes.
joe
<< <i>
I think the graders get pissed when they get a 200+ card order dropped on their desk..lol
Always seems the bigger orders are the ones that get slammed.
Jason >>
I've usually done pretty well, although my best percentages of 10's have been on 100 card or less orders. Catch 22 though, get a price break for a bigger order, or pay more for the smaller orders. If you get the 10's on the smaller orders, it's a no-brainer. I think from now on, that's the route I'll go. Gosh...just hammered. 160+ 9's? Come on. Still pi$$ed about the JH JOhnson rc too. They creased a gorgeous 81 Hampton rc on me a couple years ago, came back a 4. Had a big semi circle crease on the top of the card, presumably where they pulled it out of the CS1. I didn't make a big deal out of it, but I will complain about this one when I see it. 3 cards that are absolute WTF? There are a number of crack and resubmits, especially with the pre-1972 special now. I'll pay $8 to have them graded right.
Joe-Glad I could help.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Anyway, here's what I have, the rankings use all of the above information as well as my own personal opinions. Let me know if this looks about right or if you see anyone out of place or notice anyone missing (sorry about the format, copy and paste from spreadsheet):
QB
Brett Favre
Ken Stabler (2009 last chance)
Ken Anderson
Phil Simms
Randall Cunningham
Jim Plunkett
Joe Theismann
Boomer Esiason
Doug Williams
Drew Bledsoe
Rich Gannon
Steve McNair
Doug Flutie
Vinny Testaverde
Danny White
Bernie Kosar
Jim Hart (2009 last chance)
RB
Emmitt Smith
Marshall Faulk
Curtis Martin
Jerome Bettis
Terrell Davis
Roger Craig
Tiki Barber
Ricky Watters
Herschel Walker
Mike Alstott
Priest Holmes
Eddie George
Corey Dillon
Ottis Anderson
Larry Centers
Eric Metcalf
Greg Pruitt (2009 last chance)
George Rogers
Gerald Riggs
WR
Jerry Rice
Cris Carter
Tim Brown
Andre Reed
Cliff Branch
Jimmy Smith
Henry Ellard
Gary Clark
Harold Carmichael (2009 last chance)
Isaac Curtis (2009 last chance)
Keyshawn Johnson
Herman Moore
Dwight Clark
Roy Green
Mark Duper
Mark Clayton
Sterling Sharpe
Irving Fryar
Louis Lipps
Wesley Walker
TE
Shannon Sharpe
Mark Bavaro
Todd Christensen
Ben Coates
Brent Jones
Russ Francis
Jay Novacek
Steve Jordan
OL
Willie Roaf, T
Randall McDaniel, G
Bob Kuechenberg, G (2009 last chance)
Russ Grimm, G
Dermontti Dawson, C
Will Shields, G
Joe Jacoby, T
Jim Covert, T
Tony Boselli, T
Steve Wisniewski, G
Mike Kenn, T
Richmond Webb, T
Chris Hinton, G/T
Lomas Brown, T
Jay Hilgenberg, C
Kent Hull, C
Jeff Van Note, C
Kent Hill, G/T
Jim Lachey, T
Mark May, T/G/C
Mark Stepnoski
Ray Donaldson, C
Bruce Armstrong, T
Nate Newton, G
Henry Lawrence, G/T
DE
Bruce Smith, DE
Richard Dent, DE
Charles Haley, DE/LB
Chris Doleman, DE/LB
Ed "Too Tall" Jones, DE
Jacob Green, DE
Jim Jeffcoat, DE
Charles Mann, DE
Dexter Manley, DE
Mark Gastineau, DE
Clyde Simmons, DE
DT
John Randle, DT
Warren Sapp, DT
Cortez Kennedy, DT
Joe Klecko, DE/DT/NT
Fred Smerlas, NT
Bryant Young, DT
Ray Childress, DT/DE
LB
Derrick Thomas
Kevin Greene
Rickey Jackson
Karl Mecklenburg
Robert Brazile (2009 last chance)
Sam Mills
Clay Matthews
Cornelius Bennett
Hardy Nickerson
Darryl Talley
Ken Harvey
Pat Swilling
Levon Kirkland
Wilber Marshall
Matt Blair
Jesse Armstead
John Offerdahl
Brad Van Pelt
Chris Spielman
Jessie Tuggle
CB
Rod Woodson
Deion Sanders
Aeneas Williams
Lester Hayes
Albert Lewis
Eric Allen
Louis Wright
Raymond Clayborn
Everson Walls
S
Donnie Shell
LeRoy Butler
Steve At--water
Kenny Easley
Darren Woodson
Joey Browner
Nolan Cromwell
Carnell Lake
David Fulcher
Fred Marion
ST
Ray Guy, P
Gary Anderson, K
Steve Tasker, ST/WR
Reggie Roby, P
Nick Lowery, K
Elbert Shelley, ST/S
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think you pretty much nailed all of them. The hardest group is always the O-line. I would have to think that one of those long time Dallas Linemen that helped Emmitt to the spot that he is will make their way into the HOF. Maybe Nate needs to move up a bit. Think Sterling Sharpe might be a little higher as well but for sure an on the fence type of candidate. If not for his neck injury I think he would be in the HOF by now. More of those Rb's might get in than we think. If you read Claytons article on the ESPN site about HOF numbers for Rb's and the future of Rb's stats with the league wide progression to two feature back teams, some more might slide in. But he also states the in the article that the change might help under-represented groups of players in the HOF as well.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Stabler, in my mind, is a borderline candidate. He's one that I don't have any problem seeing left out, but I would also understand if he were elected.
The one that still stymies me is former Eagles linebacker Maxie Baughan (BTW, I need a PSA 8 or 9 '61 Fleer if anyone has one). I still don't understand why he doesn't get any recognition or consideration. 9 Pro Bowls in his 10 year career, 3 All-Pro selections, and George Allen LOVED him.
I would also (personally) rank Sterling Sharpe MUCH higher. But for whatever reason, he hasn't even made the NOMINEE list since the Class of 2006 nominee list. Everyone eligible and ranked ahead of him has been at least a nominee since then (class of 2007 and/or 2008). Even though his career was short, he was DOMINANT when he played, and i've always thought that should count a little more than longevity.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Even though his career was short, he was DOMINANT when he played, and i've always thought that should count a little more than longevity. >>
It has . . . All one needs to do is look at Gale Sayers. Or Sandy Koufax in baseball. The other DOMINANT player with a short career who is worthy of consideration, but won't get in because of his lack of "career" numbers is Terrell Davis. The fact that 3 other RB's put up great numbers with virtually the same OL doesn't really help his case, but . . .
<< <i>Ohy no . . . Joe Namath! Now you've opened a can of worms. While I've never subscribed to the hype about him being a Top-10 QB of All-time, and he wasn't the best of his generation, he was a pioneer and a huge reason for the escalated acceptance and success of the AFL. He was their poster child. The brash, wild-child who lived large and lived on the edge. Although one of the most unattractive men, he somehow was a sex symbol and the face of the new breed of football players. It didn't hurt that he had some very successful seasons in the NFL.
Stabler, in my mind, is a borderline candidate. He's one that I don't have any problem seeing left out, but I would also understand if he were elected.
The one that still stymies me is former Eagles linebacker Maxie Baughan (BTW, I need a PSA 8 or 9 '61 Fleer if anyone has one). I still don't understand why he doesn't get any recognition or consideration. 9 Pro Bowls in his 10 year career, 3 All-Pro selections, and George Allen LOVED him. >>
The Stabler/Namath comparison is actually a good one. The "stat" guys always say they aren't worthy, but they had the immeasurables that many guys with huge stat lines don't have (Dan Fouts??)..
Baughan falls into the endless pool of Senior eligible LBs..he was good, but look at all the other Senior who also aren't in the HOF:
Tommy Nobis
Chuck Howley
Randy Gradishar
Dave Robinson
Chris Hanburger
LeeRoy Jordan
Andy Russell
A couple of these will eventually make it in, but the others will wither away into oblivion...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
It has . . . All one needs to do is look at Gale Sayers. Or Sandy Koufax in baseball. The other DOMINANT player with a short career who is worthy of consideration, but won't get in because of his lack of "career" numbers is Terrell Davis. The fact that 3 other RB's put up great numbers with virtually the same OL doesn't really help his case, but . . . >>
True, there are exceptions. But those were guys who were the most dominant of a GENERATION. If Jerry Rice had gotten hurt early in his career, I think he still would have gotten in with lesser numbers. He was the best player in the game during his prime. While Sterling was great, he was just another great, not THE great.
Terrell Davis will be an interesting case as time goes by...Obviously, he isn't getting in anytime soon as all of those ahead of him go in..But what about after Martin and Bettis get in? He might be the top RB on the ballot for a few years. Heck, he made the final 25 last year. Give it 10 years and I think he could slip in...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ohy no . . . Joe Namath! Now you've opened a can of worms. >>
Namath being in the HOF is all about hype and persona, rather than stats. He made it because he predicted his team would win a Super Bowl in which he went on to throw ZERO touchdowns. Plus, like Stabler, he has a lot more picks than TDs in his career. Now I know that was pretty much the standard for QBs in the earlier days of the NFL, but not during the eras in which Namath and Stabler played. If it were up to me, they's both stay on the outside looking in. Lynn Swann too. And Paul Hornung. Maybe even Ditka. Man did he fall off after a great 3-4 year start to his career. Apparently that didn't matter to the voters. I'm actually not suggesting that the HOF be much more exclusive than it is. But I absolutely believe some player's personas superceded their stats.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ohy no . . . Joe Namath! Now you've opened a can of worms. >>
Namath being in the HOF is all about hype and persona, rather than stats. He made it because he predicted his team would win a Super Bowl in which he went on to throw ZERO touchdowns. Plus, like Stabler, he has a lot more picks than TDs in his career. Now I know that was pretty much the standard for QBs in the earlier days of the NFL, but not during the eras in which Namath and Stabler played. If it were up to me, they's both stay on the outside looking in. Lynn Swann too. And Paul Hornung. Maybe even Ditka. Man did he fall off after a great 3-4 year start to his career. Apparently that didn't matter to the voters. I'm actually not suggesting that the HOF be much more exclusive than it is. But I absolutely believe some player's personas superceded their stats. >>
If you are judging by what you read in the stat line then I understand your concept. but true concolusions can not be reached by simply adding up/comparing the numbers. Paul Warfield isn't even CLOSE to being in the top 10 WR stats of all-time...But if anyone tells me that Warfield isn't a top 10 WR of all-time, i'll know that they simply haven't seen the guy play...
You also can not discount the importance of those personas to the game of football. Its a game of physical contact and intimidation. All of those low stat guys you mentioned had a big impact vs. the teams they played simply by the fear they put in the opposing teams due to their "personas"..its not everything, but you can't discount it.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Out of all the QB,s on your list other the Farve the only 1 think that maybe should be in is Hart I think if you asked most D coaches from 70,S who on the list did you most fear or game plan to stop and Hart would be the man and if want to cosider a nitch guy someone who did change the game somewhat again someone you game planed to stop it was Cunningham >>
Well, its Hart's last year, maybe he will be nominated again. Last time he made the initial list of 100 or so nominees was 2006. I would be absolutely shocked if he even made the semis/top 25..but hey, never say never...
Playing for the 70's Cardinals probably kills his chances alone...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason,
I would have to think that one of those long time Dallas Linemen that helped Emmitt to the spot that he is will make their way into the HOF. Maybe Nate needs to move up a bit. >>
Larry Allen will most likely be the only Emmitt Smith blocker to make the HOF. Erik Williams was on his way if he could have stayed healthy. All the others, they played great as a unit, but none were ever all that great on their own merit. Much like the great Redskins O-Line from the 80's..I think Grimm will eventually make it, but thats probably it. the rest were good solid guys, but never really stood out as HOF players.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Rob
Looking for:
Heisman Rookies
Heisman Collection set singles
Eddie George PSA rookies
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I think Terrell Davis brings up the huge question. Longevity or dominance. I would put Terrell Davis and Eddie George right next to each other. Terrell dominated for 3-4 years while Eddie was consistant for almost 10. I think if you let one in you have to let the other. My personal opinion is, I dont think either will get in. The only player that helps Terrell's case is Gayle Sayers, he only played for what 6-7 years, which is about the same time frames as Terrell, but Terrell didnt do half of what Gayle did. Just a thought.
Rob >>
Eddie George has zero MVP awards and zero Super Bowl rings..That's a HUGE difference...Not to mention his yards per carry wasn't very good. Personally, I never thought much of George...To me he fits in right there with Corey Dillon, although I wouldn't have a problem putting those guys above Alstott and Holmes...I think the others, Roger Craig, Tiki Barber, Ricky Watters and Herschel Walker were all better backs than George and Dillon.
Davis made the final 25 semifinals last year, and I think there are many HOF voters on both sides of the issue.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I grew up in Bengals territory.... >>
Lemar Parrish? Kenny Anderson? Isaac Curtis, Boomer Esiason, Bob Trumpy, and Pete Johnson? C'mon, make a case for them! They're all a notch below, but they're Bengals!!!
<< <i>I love these type's of discussions, but, unfortuantly, I have nothing to add. I only became a football fan in the late 90's when I moved to indy and Manning got drafted. That's probably because I grew up in Bengals territory....LOL>> >>
Dave, there's plenty of game footage out there on most of these guys...No excuses!
lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It's been a fun ride.
Please make offers on anything you want, if you don't have VCP I can get pricing for you. I'll be right around VCP average for this stuff.
1948 Bowman 61 Alex Wojciechowicz PSA 5
1950 Bowman 9 Tony Canadeo PSA 5 ***SOLD***
1950 Bowman 35 Joe Perry PSA 5
1955 Bowman 42 John Henry Johnson PSA 7
1955 Topps All-American 28 Mel Hein PSA 6
1955 Topps All-American 84 Ace Parker PSA 6
1956 Topps 41 Roosevelt Brown PSA 7 ***SOLD***
1956 Topps 44 Joe Schmidt PSA 6
1959 Topps 51 Sam Huff PSA 6
1959 Topps 140 Bobby Mitchell PSA 8
1960 Topps 56 Forrest Gregg PSA 8
1962 Fleer 16 Billy Shaw PSA 7 OC
1965 Philadelphia 41 Paul Warfield PSA 7
1966 Philadelphia 134 Bob Brown PSA 7
1967 Philadelphia 165 Jackie Smith PSA 7
1970 Topps 25 Jan Stenerud PSA 8
1970 Topps 43 Elvin Bethea PSA 8 ***SOLD***
1971 Topps 188 Roger Wehrli PSA 7
1971 Topps 210 Charlie Sanders PSA 7
1972 Topps 93 Ted Hendricks PSA 8
1972 Topps 240 Larry Little PSA 8 ***SOLD***
1972 Topps 244 Charlie Joiner PSA 8
1973 Topps 89 Franco Harris PSA 8
1973 Topps 115 Jack Ham PSA 8
1973 Topps 322 Dan Dierdorf PSA 8
1973 topps 367 Bob Kuechenberg PSA 8
1974 Topps 383 John Hannah PSA 8
1975 Topps 490 Cliff Harris PSA 8 OC
1976 Topps 220 Jack Lambert PSA 8
1977 Topps 29 Lee Roy Selmon PSA 8
1977 Topps 50 Mike Haynes PSA 8
1977 Topps 380 Dave Casper PSA 8
1978 Topps 217 Fred Dean PSA 8
1978 Topps 315 Tony Dorsett PSA 8
1978 Topps 320 John Stallworth PSA 9
1979 Topps 310 James Lofton PSA 8
1981 Topps 150 Kellen Winslow PSA 9
1981 Topps 194 Art Monk PSA 9
1981 Topps 316 Dan Hampton PSA 9
1982 Topps 51 Anthony Munoz PSA 9
1983 Topps 38 Mike Singletary PSA 9
1984 Topps 111 Howie Long PSA 9
1984 Topps 143 Andre Tippett PSA 9
1984 Topps 222 Jim Covert PSA 9
1984 Topps 280 Eric Dickerson PSA 9
1984 Topps 286 Jackie Slater PSA 9
1984 Topps 380 Darrell Green PSA 9
1984 Topps 381 Russ Grimm PSA 9
1985 Topps 24 Richard Dent PSA 8
1985 Topps 80 Henry Ellard PSA 9
1985 Topps 251 Warren Moon PSA 9
1985 Topps 253 Mike Munchak PSA 9
1985 Topps 325 Irving Fryar PSA 9
1986 Topps 388 Andre Reed PSA 9
1987 Topps 207 Gary Zimmerman PSA 9
1989 Score 18 Michael Irvin PSA 10
1989 Score 78 Rod Woodson PSA 10
1989 Score 86 Tim Brown PSA 10
1989 Score 109 Bruce Matthews PSA 10
1989 Score 211 Thurman Thomas PSA 10
1989 Score 246 Deion Sanders PSA 8
1989 Score 258 Derrick Thomas PSA 9
1989 Score 263 Steve At-water PSA 10
1991 Stadium Club 60 Ricky Watters PSA 10
1993 Bowman Foil 421 Willie Roaf PSA 10
1996 SP 7 Terrell Owens PSA 8.5
1996 SP 5 Eddie George PSA 9
1997 Finest 46 Rodney Harrison PSA 10
1997 SP Authentic 25 Corey Dillon PSA 9
1999 SP Authentic 111 Champ Bailey PSA 8
2001 Topps Chrome 221 LaDainian Tomlinson PSA 9
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Thanks
I am surprised you have Will Shields listed so low. He has been discussed on this board as a stone-cold lock, yet he is listed below guys like Kuech who is (literally) on his last legs before being sent to the senior pool and Russ Grimm who has yet to make the final cut. Your thought process here?
Jasen
<< <i>Jason,
I am surprised you have Will Shields listed so low. He has been discussed on this board as a stone-cold lock, yet he is listed below guys like Kuech who is (literally) on his last legs before being sent to the senior pool and Russ Grimm who has yet to make the final cut. Your thought process here?
Jasen >>
Willie Roaf is the only first ballot stone cold lock of the O-linemen.
McDaniel, my prediction, will go in the Class of 2010 with Kuechenberg getting in 2009 in his last shot.
Kuechenberg has been a finalist 7 times now. He'll either go in this year or he will fall off this list and into the Senior pool. If its not Kuech this year, then McDaniel will get in, but one of the 2 will.
Grimm has been a finalist 4 times and I think will get in before Shields. He was the best blocker on that great Redskins line that won multiple Super Bowls.
Dirt Dawson is also far more accomplished than Shields. Shields has more Pro Bowls which is all fine and dandy, but Dawson was a 6 time 1st team All-Pro and the best at his position in the 90's. Sheilds was an All-Pro only twice. Shields wasn't the best guard or even in the top 3 or 4 of his era.
I think Shields is the last of the OL list who will get in, but he will have to wait awhile. If Randall McDaniel can't get in on his first 2 tries, most certainly Shields will not either. With the possibility of adding Jon Ogden and Larry Allen to this list before next season, you can add 2 more guys who will get in before Shields.
All the rest are longshots, IMO.
Thats my thinking anyway,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Also, I didn't realize the LB pool was so weak. Wow, it really falls off a cliff after DT!!!!!! >>
Junior Seau and Derrick Brooks will be adding to this list pretty soon...lol
Kevin Greene is probably the only other guy on the LB list who has a descent shot at eventually making the HOF. Then again, I would have never guessed Andre Tippett would leapfrog over the more deserving players (Like DT) last year...You never really know where the voters are on certain guys. I mean Art Monk got in before CRIS CARTER! You can't discount how the voters judge the length of time players have waited to get in. Monk got a boost last year because he's been waiting forever and it was Carter's first shot. Kuechenberg has gotten VERY close the last few years. He even made the final cut once but didn't get the 80% votes. This being his last chance, i think he can get those last couple of votes that will put him over the top.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Jason, What DVDs would you recommend viewing? Is there a series available? I would love to watch some of these HOF'ers in action. Thanks...
Dave >>
This is one of my favorites. Almost totally highlights and not a bunch of fluff. It's also the cheapest and i would recommend it for your first DVD to watch, based on how well you like it will tell you if you should purchase others/more extensive ones.
The Greatest NFL Players and Coaches
Of course the "America's Game" series is outstanding. You can watch these for free on NFL Network. If you haven't seen these, I HIGHLY recommend. Each episode tells the story of all the Super Bowl Champions through the years. Not just the game, but how that team made its way there.
America's Game Super Bowl I-XL
This one is so-so...Most of it is NFL Films type programs and doesn't really give you many good highlights. 70% of it is fluff, but it does have some worthwhile highlights.
NFL Film Classics - Legends of Autumn, Vols. 1-3
Lastly, this is a must have. Even though they wasted a lot of DVD space on induction speeches and you can find MANY of the same highlights on the much cheaper "The Greatest" DVD which I listed in my first link. But this one covers every HOFer in some capacity.
NFL Films - The Pro Football Hall of Fame - 85 Years of Greatness
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As always Your list is right on the mark in my opion J
I agree by the way Hart will not make it Dont think any QB on the list other then Farve will i was just trying to use the logic Ron Wolf mentioned in the article you posted out the the Qb,s i think Hart and Cunningham would be the 2 that if you were designing a game plan you might say we need to stop these guys.
Hart should make it in just for being well known playing for the Cards in the 70,s how many Cards can you name of the top of your head lol
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>By the way here is my sleeper pick Sam Mills
Absolutely. He's hurt by his lack of Pro Bowls and All-Pros, but he is one of the most underrated players on that entire list.
It will be interesting to see what happens after Derrick Thomas gets in (which I predict will be this year). I think Kevin Greene has the best shot after that, but Rickey Jackson (who made the semis last year), Mechlenberg, Mills, Clay Matthews and also Cornelius Bennett could get some play down the line. Much like Tippett got that pushed him in over DT and Greene. Any one of those guys could get a push and get in. I think they all have strong arguments for their inclusion.
Predicting the seniors is like predicting the lottery..lol...It really all depends on which 5 senior voters they select to go to Canton and pick the 2 finalists from the list of senior semi-finalist. The majority of the "old guard" group from last year (and also the year Freidman and Fritz Pollard went in) shouldn't be going again, as they do a rotation between the 9 senior voters. So I'm hopeful that we can have some choices that actually make sense and who are actually WORTHY of being inducted.
My top 10 Seniors for this year:
MICK TINGELHOFF
TOMMY NOBIS
At least one of these 2 should have went in last year instead of wasting a spot on Goldberg. They've got to start opening it up to the monster list of HOF worthy Senior eligible LBs. If not Nobis, then Howley would be a solid choice as well.
CHUCK HOWLEY
CLAUDE HUMPHREY
L.C. GREENWOOD
AL WISTERT
RANDY GRADISHAR
DAVE ROBINSON
JERRY KRAMER
BOB HAYES
Missing from this list: Cliff Harris and Johnny Robinson. I don't think they will select a DB 2 years in a row, and I also don't think they will select a KC Chief 2 years in a row. I think Harris and Robinson are in the top 10 overall candidates, but won't be this year because of that. There really aren't many skill players amongst the seniors who stand out. Bob Hayes, even though he got denied a few years back, still makes the semifinals every year. I also predict that within the next 2 years, a minimum of 3 out of the 4 senior candidates will be from the defensive side of the ball. 2010 SHOULD be Cliff Harris and one of the DE's, either Greenwood or Humphrey.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Thanks Jason, I just placed my order for the first DVD you listed.
Dave >>
Best highlights:
Gale Sayers runs (simply amazing, Barry Sanders would be jealous)
Dick Lane tearing guys heads off when clotheslines were legal
Don Hutson scorching defenses
John Mackey breaking 10+ tackles on one play
The size of Marion Motley busting through a hole (he was bigger than the linemen..lol)
and of course Jim Brown running through, over, around and past everybody
I could name off 20 others...lol
I think you'll enjoy it, it moves along very nicely with the highlights unlike some of the other DVDs which are slow and clunky.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
Hart should make it in just for being well known playing for the Cards in the 70,s how many Cards can you name of the top of your head lol >>
Ok, I'll give it a shot, but its not fair they were my team!! lol
QB Jim Hart
RB Terry Metcalf (Erics dad, unbelievably elusive moves you woudnt belive, but fumbled way too much!), Jim Otis (power back)
OL Dan Dierdorf, Roger Finnie, Tom Banks, Bob Young (worlds strongest man at one point)
(this OL gave up only 5 sacks in one whole year, an NFL record that stood for over 20 years until
the Dolphins and Marino broke it with only 4!!)
TE Jackie Smith, JV Cain (died tragically on practice field of heart defect)
WR Mel Gray (speed burner), Ike Harris, Pat Tilley (position rec. 3rd down guy, very tough, one of my favorites!)
CB Roger Werhli (one of the best ever!) I heard a stat once that he was so feared that the offense only threw
on his side 8 times ALL year and 3 were intercepted!!)
LB Mike Sensibaugh
DT John Zook
K Jim Bakken (money! great kicker)
P Terry Joyce (horrible!!) would routinely shank punts for 10 to 20 net yards
once punted a ball backwards! (only time I can remember my Dad cussing in front of me!!) lol
NFC East Champions 1973 11-3 (if my memory is correct?)
NFC Wild Card 1975? 10-4 (again not positive)
Regards to all you guys,
Enjoying the discussion,
Gabbs
What about evil wicked mean and nasty CONRAD DOBLER!!!
See if this refreshes your memory...Remember anything about these other guys?
1974 Cardinals lineup (10-4, won the East but lost 30-14 to the Vikings in the playoffs):
Coach- Don Coryell
QB-Jim Hart
RB-Terry Metcalf
FB-Jim Otis
WR-Earl Thomas
WR-Mel Gray
TE-Jackie Smith
LT-Ernie McMillen
LG-Bob Young
C-Tom Brahaney (Tom banks only played in one game due to injury)
RG-Conrad Dobler
RT-Dan Dierdorf
DE-Council Rudolph
DE-Ron Yankowski
DT-Bob Rowe
DT-Lee Brooks
OLB-Larry Stallings
MLB-Mark Arneson
OLB-Pete Barnes
CB-Roger Wehrli
CB-Norm Thompson
SS-Jim Tolbert
FS-Clarence Duren
They also went 11-3 in 1975 winning the Division for a 2nd straight year and 10-4 in 1976 just missing the playoffs. In 75, they once again lost their first playoff game to the LA Rams 35-23. The Rams had 237 yards rushing in the game, with Lawrence McCutcheon going for 202 on 37 carries. They also ran back 2 Jim Hart INTs for TDs (one by Jack Youngblood).
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
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<< <i>Ugly 9 indeed. I've seen a number of (and I've owned) 1974s with odd staining like that, all in PSA 9 holders. That top left corner and that stain don't appear to be 9 worthy IMO. I bet it gets a prett penny though. >>
I've owned MANY 1970's PSA 9 cards with the liver spot...Anyone know what it is or what causes it? Probably just something with the cardboard stock is my guess, so it's really not a "stain", but definitely an ugly imperfection.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
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Take that back Jason. I was really upset they did not put Derrick Thomas in last year.
Mark
PS: Sorry to see you break your set Envoy.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>"...and I also don't think they will select a KC Chief 2 years in a row."
Take that back Jason. I was really upset they did not put Derrick Thomas in last year.
Mark
PS: Sorry to see you break your set Envoy. >>
I was talking strictly SENIOR candidates Mark..Read above where I am talking LBs and you'll see that I believe DT WILL get in this year as one of the modern candidates. I agree, it was a mistake for them to put Tippett in over Thomas. Tippett is borderline deserving, but Thomas should be a lock. He was a dominant pass rusher. Thank the Patriots undefeated season for that push Tippett got.
My 5 moderns:
Rod Woodson
Bruce Smith
Cris Carter
Derrick Thomas
Bob Kuechenberg or Randall McDaniel
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The noted that a player once had 17 unoffical sacks in 1 game. I did a google search and found this.....
Norm "Wildman" Willey (born August 22, 1927 in Chicago Heights, Illinois) was an American football defensive lineman in the NFL. He went to two Pro Bowls during his 8 year career. He was credited with an unofficial 17 sacks in one contest.
Thats just amazing. Too bad theres no game tape. I wonder if anyone ever tried to go back and view game tape to try to get som #'s for those before the sack became and offical stat in 1984?
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I was watching the NFL network today and the "10 greatest pass rushers". Cant remember the whole list, but Deacon Jones was #1 followed by Reggie White, LT, and Bruce Smith.
The noted that a player once had 17 unoffical sacks in 1 game. I did a google search and found this.....
Norm "Wildman" Willey (born August 22, 1927 in Chicago Heights, Illinois) was an American football defensive lineman in the NFL. He went to two Pro Bowls during his 8 year career. He was credited with an unofficial 17 sacks in one contest.
Thats just amazing. Too bad theres no game tape. I wonder if anyone ever tried to go back and view game tape to try to get som #'s for those before the sack became and offical stat in 1984?
Dave >>
NFL CAREER QUARTERBACK SACK LEADERS (Through week 16, 2005)
Compiled by John M. Turney and Nick Webster, 505.437.1308, ©2006, all rights reserved. This is a work in progress, totals can change with new information
Rank Total Name, Position, Years Played, Totals For Each Team Active players are shown in BOLD
1 200 Bruce Smith DE 1985-03 Bills (171.0) Redskins (29.0)
2 198 Reggie White DE-DT 1985-98, 2000 Eagles (124.0) Packers (68.5) Panthers (5.5) Showboats-USFL (23.5)
3 173.5 Deacon Jones DE 1961-74 Rams (159-1/2) Chargers (11) Redskins (3)
4 160 Kevin Greene OLB-DE 1985-99 Rams (72.5) Steelers (35.5) Panthers (41.5) 49ers (10.5)
5 151.5 Jack Youngblood DE 1971-84 Rams (151-1/2)
6 151 Chris Doleman DE-OLB 1985-99 Vikings (97.0) Falcons (16.0) 49ers (38.0)
7 148.5 Alan Page DT 1967-81 Vikings (108-1/2) Bears (40)
8 142 Lawrence Taylor OLB 1981-93 Giants (142.0)
9 137.5 Richard Dent DE 1983-97 Bears (124.5) 49ers (2.0) Colts (6.5) Eagles (4.5)
10 136 Rickey Jackson OLB-DE 1981-95 Saints (123.0) 49ers (13.0)
11 135.5 John Randle DT-DE 1990-03 Vikings (112) Seahawks (23.5)
12 133 Carl Eller DE 1964-79 Vikings (130) Seahawks (3)
13 132.5 Leslie O'Neal DE-OLB 1986-99 Chargers (105.5) Rams (17.0) Chiefs (10.0)
14 130 Coy Bacon DE-DT 1968-81 Rams (41) Chargers (23-1/2) Bengals (27) Redskins (38-1/2) Federals-USFL (6.5)
15 129.5 Michael Strahan DE 1993-05 Giants (129.5)
16 128.5 Al Baker DE 1978-90 Lions (72) Cardinals (37.5) Browns (13.5) Vikings (5.5)
17 127 Jim Marshall DE 1960-79 Browns (0) Vikings (127)
18 126.5 Derrick Thomas OLB-DE 1989-99 Chiefs (126.5)
19 124.5 Claude Humphrey DE 1968-74, 1976-81 Falcons (97) Eagles (27-1/2)
20 121.5 Clyde Simmons DE 1986-00 Eagles (76.0) Cardinals (17.0) Jaguars (16.0) Bengals (5.0) Bears (7.5)
21 121 Cedrick Hardman DE 1970-81 49ers (106.5) Raiders (14-1/2) Invaders-USFL (9.0)
22 119 Simeon Rice DE 1996-05 Cardinals (51.5) Bucs (67.5)
23 116 Jacob Green DE 1980-92 Seahawks (116.0) 49ers (0)
24 115 Harvey Martin DE 1973-83 Cowboys (115)
25 113 Sean Jones DE 1984-96 Raiders (31.0) Oilers (57.5) Packers (24.5)
26 112.5 Lyle Alzado DE-DT 1971-85 Broncos (64-1/2) Browns (24-1/2) Raiders (23.5)
27 111 Randy White DT-LB 1975-88 Cowboys (111)
27 111 Andy Robustelli DE 1951-64 Rams (28-1/2) Giants (82-1/2)
29 109.5 Greg Townsend DE-OLB 1983-94, 1997 Raiders (107.5) Eagles (2.0)
30 107.5 Pat Swilling OLB-DE 1986-96, 1998 Saints (76.5) Lions (10.0) Raiders (21.0)
30 107.5 Mark Gastineau DE 1979-88 Jets (1072) B.C. Lions-CFL (0)
32 106 Trace Armstrong DE 1989-03 Bears (42.0) Dolphins (56.5) Radiers (7.5)
32 106 Ed Jones DE 1974-78, 80-89 Cowboys (106)
34 105 Elvin Bethea DE-G 1968-83 Oilers (105)
35 104.5 Neil Smith DE 1988-00 Chiefs (85.5) Broncos (19.0) Chargers (0.0)
36 104 Fred Dryer DE 1969-81 Giants (29) Rams (75)
37 103.5 Dexter Manley DE 1981-91 Redskins (97) Cardinals (0) Buccaneers (6.5) Rough Riders-CFL (0)
38 103 Jack Gregory DE 1967-79 Browns (38) Giants (65)
39 102.5 Jim Jeffcoat DE 1983-97 Cowboys (94.5) Bills (8.0)
40 100.5 Charles Haley OLB-DE 1986-96, 1999 49ers (66.5) Cowboys (34.0)
40 100.5 William Fuller DE 1986-98 Oilers (59.0) Eagles (35.5) Chargers (6.0) Stars-USFL (10.5)
42 100 Andre Tippett OLB 1982-88, 1990-93 Patriots (100.0)
42 100 Ezra Johnson DE 1977-91 Packers (86) Colts (11.5) Oilers (2.5)
44 98.5 George Andrie DE 1961-73 Cowboys (98-1/2)
45 98 Jim Katcavage DE 1956-68 Giants (98)
46 97.5 Simon Fletcher OLB-DE 1985-95 Broncos (97.5)
47 97.5 Alex Karras DT 1960-62, 1964-70 Lions (97-1/2)
Reggie White passed Taylor and was crowned by the NFL and Elias Sports Bureau, the statistical arm of the NFL, as the all-time sack leader. It was amid this backdrop that another individual was asking many of the same questions that I was. Hall of Fame DE Deacon Jones proclaimed that it was he, not White, who was the NFL’s all-time sack king. Jones said to anyone who would listen, "Since when does ‘all-time’ begin in 1982?"
Attempting to prove Jones’ claims was a tedious task, especially since only a few teams had published team sack records in their media guides. So, with the help of a partner, Nick Webster, we traveled to every NFL city and read every available "play-by-play." A play-by-play is a game summary that is used by Elias to compile all NFL statistics. Additionally, I was able to research old game films in Mt. Laurel, N.J., the home of NFL Films, to fill in where a play-by-play may have lacked.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Anyone have the following?
1933 Thorpe
1935 Nagurski
1948 Turner
1952 Matson
1957 Starr
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Cool list Jason., I wonder how Tilley got 17 in a game and doesnt crack that list having an 8 year career. You would think that he would be up there. Maybe not enough game tape exists from that far back? >>
That's part of it...Keep in mind, the 17 sack thing is totally unconfirmed. Many times, in the old play-by-play records, the scorers would count a QB tackle, with or without the ball... Even if he'd already thrown the pass. It would be the equivalent of QB knockdowns of today, and they wouldn't count as sacks. The pre 1960's data is still fairly inconsistent though because there is not film tape of every game. Even some of the official play-by-play records are hard to decipher.
It is what it is...Willey was selected to 2 Pro Bowls and was a 1-time 1st Team All-Pro during an 8 year career. Here's a story write up Dr. Z on this issue:
NFL Films has a piece on former Eagles defensive end Norm (Wild Man) Willey in which he claims he had 17 sacks in a game. The feature is very entertaining, with Willey maintaining throughout that people didn't believe him when he told them about his exploits that day. Count me as one of those nonbelievers, because I happened to be at that game: Philadelphia Eagles 14, New York Giants 10, Polo Grounds, Oct. 26, 1952.
Philadelphia had defensive ends Willey and Pete Pihos "crashing," as rushing the passer was called then, as opposed to the old "boxing" strategy, or playing the run first. The Giants tried to block the ends with their guards, who couldn't get outside in time. It was frightening to watch. My chart has New York quarterbacks Charley Conerly and Freddie (Needle) Benners going down 14 times, with Willey collecting eight of the sacks, which weren't so named until years later, and Pihos getting six. Willey's eight probably would have been a record (as would the Eagles' 14), except the NFL didn't recognize individual sack totals until 30 years later. That's sad because many of the great pass rushers before the '80s will never get their due.
Willey, Pihos, Doug Atkins, Gino Marchetti -- their numbers are lost. Aside from the players, no one has been more discouraged about this than John Turney, a 36-year-old gift shop owner from Alamogordo, N.Mex., who has pored over play-by-play charts and viewed hundreds of reels of film in an attempt to establish accurate totals for as many old-timers as he can. His research goes back to around 1960. "Before that, there are only a few bits and pieces of information," he says.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Greg
Cameo web page