<< <i>Now what have we learned from this occurence my children.
1. If a coin is too pretty to be true.......then it aint.
2. Dont be lulled into a false sense of security because a coin is slabbed by a top tier TPG.
3.If your instincts are crying out to beware...........Listen to it.
4.If the toning is unusual and strays far from the norm...be wary
5.Some toned coins, with what appears to be impeccable credentials, may have been enhanced.
6. Naturally toned coins which have been enhanced, are most difficult to identify. This is because the coin has natural characteristics among the coloration.
7.The network of folks knowingly handling, producing and trading in such coins is large, varied and far flung. That is why it is impossible to clean up. the only thing that will stop this activity, is if collectors stop collecting toned coins and stop paying sky high prices for them. It has happened before, could happen again.
8. Most average collectors can spot 4 out of 10 AT coins. An experienced dealer might spot 7 out of ten AT coins. A specialist might identify 8 out of 10 coins.Only God could spot all 10 AT Coins.
9. Market acceptable, is merely what the average gullible collector is willing to swallow.
10. When you buy a toned coins, realize there is always the risk that ,you will eventually bite the bird. >>
Thank you Bear. The only problem is, people buying toned coins or taking risks should know all of this BEFORE they get involved.
Anaconda, are you sure that the coin was "retoned" after the initial ATing? It's very likely that if the coin sat in that 2x2, or something else with NTing chemicals, the old colors could've/would've settled.
In the end, people spending big money for toning should know what they're getting into, and that there's serious risks; knowing what you're getting involved in from the start will help you avoid this situation. This ENTIRE story only helps to prove this point.
Kind of reminds me of a bridge that was for sale once upon a time. It's amazing what a story can do.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
<< <i>it seems to me the next MONSTER colored coin that comes along, you will have no problem selling it for moon money. thus, i conclude you will not change in your ways of doing business.
if it was not for the poster who showed us this coin was AT, you would have sold it with a smile on your face(s).
so what have you really learned and how will you change?
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. Everytime I read a post that states a "well known coin doctor" or a "respected dealer" and names aren't named I know this chit will go on.
The reason I am not naming the dealer we got it from is because he was fooled as well. He didn't make up the story he was told. If I get to the bottom of this and find out exactly who it was who enhanced the coin and fabricated the story about it, they will be outed. The fact is, we still have to continue down the chain of ownership and determine who made the false story. It's not over yet. >>
So i gotta ask , why would a PCGS grader walk the coin over to an NGC table ?? I f he believed the coin real -
why not walk it over to PCGS table ?? and Why even bring it to you guys first , raw, i mean ?
You are to be commended for trying to tell the whole story....but the thing still stinks to high heaven
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. Everytime I read a post that states a "well known coin doctor" or a "respected dealer" and names aren't named I know this chit will go on.
The reason I am not naming the dealer we got it from is because he was fooled as well. He didn't make up the story he was told. If I get to the bottom of this and find out exactly who it was who enhanced the coin and fabricated the story about it, they will be outed. The fact is, we still have to continue down the chain of ownership and determine who made the false story. It's not over yet. >>
So i gotta ask , why would a PCGS grader walk the coin over to an NGC table ?? I f he believed the coin real -
why not walk it over to PCGS table ?? and Why even bring it to you guys first , raw, i mean ?
You are to be commended for trying to tell the whole story....but the thing still stinks to high heaven >>
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. >>
Is that a law firm headquarted in Texas?
Russ, NCNE >>
No that would be winken, blinken and sod.
Your mother must of never read this to you at night.
Winken, Blinken, and Nod one night Sailed off in a wooden shoe -- Sailed off on a river of crystal light, Into a sea of dew. "Where are you going, and what do you wish?" The old moon asked the three. "We have come to fish for the herring fish That live in the beautiful sea; Nets of silver and gold have we!" Said Winken, Blinken, And Nod.
The old moon laughed and sang a song, As they rocked in the wooden shoe, And the wind that sped them al night long Ruffled the waves of dew. The little stars were the herring fish That lived in the beautiful sea -- "Now cast your nets wherever you wish -- Never afeard are we"; So cried the stars to the fisherman three: Winken, Blinken, And Nod.
All night long their nets they threw To the stars in the twinkling foam -- Then down from the skies came the wooden shoe Bringing the fisherman home; 'Twas all so pretty a sail it seemed As if it could not be, And some folks thought 'twas a dream they'd dreamed Of sailing that beautiful sea -- But I shall name you the fishermen three: Winken, Blinken, And Nod.
Winken and Blinken are two little eyes, And Nod is a little head, And the wooden shoes that sailed the skies Is the wee one's trundle-bed. So shut your eyes while mother sings Of wonderful sights that be, And you shall see the beautiful things As you rock in the misty sea, Where the old shoe rocked hte fisherman three: Winken, Blinken, And Nod.
First let me commend both Brandon and Adrian for the very professional and ethical way that they handled this matter. They were taken by a coin that they felt had sufficient "credibility" to warranty a substantial purchase price.
I did discuss this coin with Brandon shortly after he posted it - my comment was the the image had a "burned" look and I thought it might be "environmentally damaged" (It was, but not quite the way that I thought). Brandon indicated that it looked really neat in hand and you had to see it to appreciate the beauty of the coin. I've learned long ago that it is very difficult to assess the quality of any toned coin based on a digital or photographic image. What you see in the photo is often not what you get in hand. Sometimes you are pleasantly surprised - sometimes you are shocked - and not in a positive way.
As for determining AT or NT from an image, it is my opinion that it is almost impossible to make that call from any digital image that you see posted on the web, for the very reason that the coin in hand often looks very different than the image. Some images are very "optimistic", others are so bad that you think the coin is fugly and should be dipped but in hand you love the toning.
Brandon and I basically ended our conversation with me hoping that I'd be able to see the coin at the next show that we both attend, and his comment that he didn't think he'd have it that long.
As for the coin itself - it was not a coin that I found particularly attractive based on the image. I felt the toning on the central devices looked like the toning had "bonded" with the metal - much like rust on iron - not a toning look that I like or would want in my collection. I showed the image to my wife - who has a great eye for art and beauty and her reaction was "It's not pretty" - sometimes our non-collecting spouses have better instincts than us sophisticated collectors! On Peace dollars - the nicely toned ones are so few and far between that when we see one that has nice color we desperately want it to be the "real deal" - and in this instance, I think that may have "colored" the reality that there was something "Not right" about that coin.
This is not a criticism. When I bought (and paid stupid money) for what is now the TCCS logo coin (in a PCI holder! ) I remember thinking 2 things: 1) How could I be so stupid and 2) If that coin is AT, I want to meet the guy who did it! As it turned out, my appreciation for its beauty was even more appreciated by those who specialized in toned coins, and it was the impetus for starting TCCS. So when Brandon and Adrain stepped up and bought what turned out to in fact be an AT coin, they did no less than what most of us have done when we started into this very addictive aspect of coin collecting - They stuck their necks out and took a chance. It's unfortunate that their willingness to put their money into something that they believed was special turned out to be a mistake. But they didn't whine, they didn't blame anyone else, they immediately took steps to remove that coin from the market and have it removed from the NGC holder. NGC also deserves praise - not because they mistakenly slabbed a questionable coin, but because they immediately corrected their mistaken when it was brought to their attention.
In the end, both Anaconda Rare coins and NGC did the right thing, removed that coin from the market place and they are both better for the experience. Two companies that I would recommend and do business with. They deserve our respect. Publicly facing up to a problem and correcting it is not something you often see. They have made this hobby a little better by promptly fixing a serious problem.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
I don't really feel like being critical, but I think that keets makes some good points about the way the coin business runs, and why a lot of folks feel skeptical about the network of dealers. And I realize that a lot of folks like brandon or adrian, but I don't understand all of this back-patting they're getting for being so professional. Somewhat outed one of their 5 figure coins as being a $50 shake and bake special from an ebay seller that we've been laughing at for years. What were they supposed to do- ignore the evidence and still try to stick someone with the coin and it's hefty price tag?? They had no choice but to yank it and try to do some damage control and PR work. Are we that easily impressed around here???
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
A coin dealer friend taught me a long time ago to avoid purple on silver coins. Some blues are also suspicious. Dark cobalt is generally okay (have an 84 CC Morgan with a dark cobalt swath on the reverse), but the bright blues often are not.
I think it's a matter of looking at a lot of toned coins, asking people who know more than you questions about them, and learning everything you can. For example, I have an attractive small dentil dime. It was dipped at one time & retoned with gold and cobalt colors.
You need to have seen many coins of a specific series to know what a 'monster' should look like.
Another thing is that I NEVER buy anything raw. Except for EAC people, there's usually a reason why a coin is raw, and it probably is not a good thing for a perspective buyer. I also only buy from people that I know will stand behind any coin that they sell.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I don't really feel like being critical, but I think that keets makes some good points about the way the coin business runs, and why a lot of folks feel skeptical about the network of dealers. And I realize that a lot of folks like brandon or adrian, but I don't understand all of this back-patting they're getting for being so professional. Somewhat outed one of their 5 figure coins as being a $50 shake and bake special from an ebay seller that we've been laughing at for years. What were they supposed to do- ignore the evidence and still try to stick someone with the coin and it's hefty price tag?? They had no choice but to yank it and try to do some damage control and PR work. Are we that easily impressed around here???
>>
You are right, and while I don't want to irritate you by saying this, I will. It's easy to be critical and say "they would have had to do this anyway, the pr and fence mending", but what you miss is the amount of time and effort that it actually takes to DO it, and not just let it slide... Yesterday's news is always as boring as snot; after a week the dragon slayers around here will be after another inequity (and iniquity, probably) in the coin world. Attention spans are short; quite frankly they COULD have chosen to hide and ride it out... But they didn't.
I am beginning to believe that the coin trade (not necessarily collecting) is similar to politics - like sausage making: enjoy the way it tastes, but don't look too closely at how it gets made. There are real bad actors out there - I don't think that Anaconda is one of them. At the end of the day, people rely on the trade for their livelihoods - and the ones who are willing to clean up after themselves I won't villify.
But they didn't whine, they didn't blame anyone else, they immediately took steps to remove that coin from the market and have it removed from the NGC holder. NGC also deserves praise - not because they mistakenly slabbed a questionable coin, but because they immediately corrected their mistaken when it was brought to their attention.
with that brief moment of ignorance which goose has saved by cut/paste, you have done three things:
1. moved completely off the "reasonable" radar screen. 2. endowed yourself with a claim to being on coiunguy's circle of trust™ whic entitles you to "first shot" status. 3. been removed from my legitimate collector list.
It really bothered me that a "former PCGS grader" had the coin graded at NGC, but after thinking about it he probably could not submit it to PCGS because he used to wok there-------------BigE
It really bothered me that a "former PCGS grader" had the coin graded at NGC, but after thinking about it he probably could not submit it to PCGS because he used to work there-------------BigE
I did not read it the same into it. I read this as like many dealers, no matter what their background, send many/most of their coins to NGC for two reasons: 1. Likelihood of getting the coin into a higher grade slab that can be sold for money. 2. Having a reasonable chance of getting the coin back before their grandchildren have grandchildren.
I don't really feel like being critical, but I think that keets makes some good points about the way the coin business runs, and why a lot of folks feel skeptical about the network of dealers. And I realize that a lot of folks like brandon or adrian, but I don't understand all of this back-patting they're getting for being so professional. Somewhat outed one of their 5 figure coins as being a $50 shake and bake special from an ebay seller that we've been laughing at for years. What were they supposed to do- ignore the evidence and still try to stick someone with the coin and it's hefty price tag?? They had no choice but to yank it and try to do some damage control and PR work. Are we that easily impressed around here???
I must say that I have to agree with myqqy's statement. I have nothing against Anaconda, but who would not have done the same? What were the alternatives? Relist the coin on ebay? Drop it "anonymously" in a Heritage auction? Attempt to "redocotor" it? Any reasonable businessperson would have done the same whether they were honorable or not--why all the congratulations? The real question is that if a collector were stung with such a coin, would he/she have had the resources to quietly get out of it like Anaconda did?
I did not know that you could submit a coin and include a "story". Is this a dealer-only privilige? When I have in the past submitted coins at the PCGS table, they usually treat me as if I am asking them to handle my dog's droppings. There's no chit-chat and no story-telling.
Someone better put a fan in this thread for it is an awfully stinky smell like sulfur and it is getting to the point it is windier than the city of Chicago!
If you tell a really good memorable story it is carried for all posterity down to the purchaser children, and their children until someone cracks it out for an upgrade--------BigE
Since there was no included in that post, I will take it to have been serious, rather than in jest.
Mark et al.
I did not realize that it was mandatory to have a in a post that was so obviously in jest. Heck, most of what I posty here is in jest. Perhaps I should change my avatar to a or put in my sigline so that whatever I say is assumed to be in jest.
My goodness. This is a friggin' hobby for most of us and a mostly pleasant "no one gets hurt or dies" business for the rest. I do not understand why people take some of these issues so seriously. This last statement was serious so no .
with that brief moment of ignorance which goose has saved by cut/paste, you have done three things:
1. moved completely off the "reasonable" radar screen. 2. endowed yourself with a claim to being on coiunguy's circle of trust™ whic entitles you to "first shot" status. 3. been removed from my legitimate collector list. >>
C'mon, Al... I think we all get what you want; they're not going to "out" anyone. Too much future business profits- it is what it is. So even if you (we) know names, what? Are we going to throw rocks at 'em? Vow to never, EVER do business with them? Make them the butt of jokes, or rumours? Trash them in private... Stick pins in dolls fashioned in thier likenesses?
You get what I mean. Matter of fact, I agree with your points; perhaps not your stridency, but certainly your point of view. I'm not going to tell you to lighten up - that would be demeaning and crass - I don't know you well enough to be demeaning and crass to you . I can tell you, though, that I read Robert's post with a light heart and got a good laugh out of it. I don't think that his post impacts his legitimacy as a coin collector at all... Possibly his legitimacy as a plagiaristic writer, but not as a true coin collector.
Ads far as butt-kissing goes, or the Circle of Trust™... I've read enough of Robert's posts to disagree with your assessment of his motivation. I personally couldn't give one big wet poop if smoeone thinks I'm butt kissing, or a jerk, or anything else... I'm going to say what I feel and if you don't like it, don't read my posts. Snub me, even. I have a life. As I heard long ago: "What you think of me is none of my business".
Folks, are we forgetting the "Rule of thumb" here? Quoted from ........ take a guess. Heh and yes I do believe this is the whole attitude of most of this industry......
<< <i>Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it! >>
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
This is one of the funniest and scariest threads we've had in a long time. I hate to admit, but I am leaning towards Keets point of view here. This coin held the potential to screw a collector out of 12K. For me, that's enough to take down names and hold those involved responsible. Sorry Mark, it does matter who the ex-PCGS grader is. And more important, if the "enhancer" is not the PCGS grader, that individual should be outed as well. They can always defend their actions if innocent. It's all about dealer credibility and collector confidence in the hobby.
This doctoring issue is so much more harmful to the hobby than the telemarketers and all those who screw the widows. Doctoring has the potential to bring down the entire hobby. The bottom line here is the destruction of collector confidence. The fact that it is only collectors screaming for names, and not the dealers, only lead me to believe the problem is too widespread to resolve. My take is that the dealer community as a whole is feeding the doctoring frenzy, or they are simply too intimidated to take action. In either case, the collector community has lost. The silence is deafening. Looks like business as usual.
And RYK, your "A Few Good Men" post is one of the funniest I've read in a long time.
<< <i>This is one of the funniest and scariest threads we've had in a long time. I hate to admit, but I am leaning towards Keets point of view here. This coin held the potential to screw a collector out of 12K. For me, that's enough to take down names and hold those involved responsible. Sorry Mark, it does matter who the ex-PCGS grader is. And more important, if the "enhancer" is not the PCGS grader, that individual should be outed as well. They can always defend their actions if innocent. It's all about dealer credibility and collector confidence in the hobby.
This doctoring issue is so much more harmful to the hobby than the telemarketers and all those who screw the widows. Doctoring has the potential to bring down the entire hobby. The bottom line here is the destruction of collector confidence. The fact that it is only collectors screaming for names, and not the dealers, only lead me to believe the problem is too widespread to resolve. My take is that the dealer community as a whole is feeding the doctoring frenzy, or they are simply too intimidated to take action. In either case, the collector community has lost. The silence is deafening. Looks like business as usual.
And RYK, your "A Few Good Men" post is one of the funniest I've read in a long time. >>
Yeah I don't understand the comment about the "other" enhancer. It is like the grassy knoll and Kennedy. There apparently were TWO coin doctors involved.
my apologies for misunderstanding the jest of your post, Robert. in the heat of the debate i didn't even read the paragraph, just the single lines above it. my ignorance comes from the fact that i never saw the movie if it was "A Few Good Men" as someone alluded to and i'm not familiar with the lines you parodied.
simply put, i over-reacted and placed my foot smack dab in my mouth.
Brandon, Your update and frankness is very much appreciated. When more is certain PLEASE name the bay area dealer who submitted the coin in the 2X2 under apparently false pretenses. Don
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks you Brandon for the followup. As you guys bought it already holdered it appears you were victims here too.
IS THIS THE END!!!
NO
Everyone involved should know who they bought from and there should be an easy trace down the line to the Ebay auction, heck it was only 60 days ago. Whomever submitted the coin with "80 years in an envelope story" should be "outted" and NGC should bar them from any future submissions. ANACS should sanction them.
What I see here is a scam that got short circuited and people would be screaming ..........except , it appears, NGC has picked up the tab to keep good PR. This doesn't change the facts. Someone knew it was bad, tried to pull a fast one and we still have not heard the whole story.
My guess is that with all the fast money made on these types of deals the dealer community is much more interested in putting this one to bed real fast. This type of PR is not good for the business. There's a lot more "toners" out there with 5 figures price tags waiting to be sold to the "lucky buyers" >>
Once again, Where is the scam, here? In this case Brandon and Adrian stepped up and admitted they made a mistake...good for them. Great public relations. NGC stepped up and their insurance company is going to make Anaconda whole...good for them. That is the reason for their guarantee. The "respected one-time PCGS dealer" was made whole when he sold to Anaconda...good for him. That's why he's in business. As for the person who sold it to the unnamed dealer above?
It make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE how the toning got onto the coin or how long it took...an owner thought it had pretty toning on it. AT or NT is irrelevant. Regardless of what he paid for it he is entitled to sell it for whatever price he can get for it. >>
I disagree. If what Brandon relates is correct (and I only state it that way as that beyond his purchase, what Brandon relates is secondhand). The "bay area dealer" deliberately misreprented the coin and lied about it blatently. He is NOT enitiled to lie (stating that the coin was in the 2x2 for years, etc) when he knows this to be false, and by doing so he forfeits his entitlement to sell the coin as if he is an honest man. Don
<< <i>Except for the fact that he (the person who sold it to the dealer whom sold it to Anaconda) apparently knowingly/intentionally misrepresented the coin's history.
I don't know if this is applicable or not, but an old expression/legal term that I learned about in law school just came to mind - "fraud in the inducement", defined as :
"fraud in the inducement n. the use of deceit or trick to cause someone to act to his/her disadvantage, such as signing an agreement or deeding away real property. The heart of this type of fraud is misleading the other party as to the facts upon which he/she will base his/her decision to act. " >>
Let me preface this with the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer...I don't play one on TV, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Yes, and this car was only driven by a little old lady to church on Sunday. You mean to tell me that some dealers embellish the truth????
The question then becomes:
How was the buyer disadvantaged? Toning is toning. NT or AT is irrelevant. A prospective buyer either likes the coin enough to pay the seller's price or he doesn't. It is not the seller's fault if the buyer cannot find another buyer willing to pay that much (or more) any more than it is your responsiblity to make sure I am not buried in a coin which I buy from you. Is it good business to do so? Of course it is and would probably result in enough repeat business to more than make up for the one time sale...
But in the end it is (and rightfully so) STILL the buyer who is responsible for his actions. >>
Of course a buyer is responsible for his actions. and we hope taht teh buyer of that used car takes what is said while thinking caveat emptor. BUT if someone I know and trust tells me that their mother drove the car, c hanged the oil, etc, I look at the car differently than if a "used car salesman" does. I HAVE to trust my doctor, lawyer, etc. One can't be an expert at everything.
I disagree. If what Brandon relates is correct (and I only state it that way as that beyond his purchase, what Brandon relates is secondhand). The "bay area dealer" deliberately misreprented the coin and lied about it blatently. He is NOT enitiled to lie (stating that the coin was in the 2x2 for years, etc) when he knows this to be false, and by doing so he forfeits his entitlement to sell the coin as if he is an honest man.
Please be aware that we are trying to find out where the lies began. For all we know the bay area dealer was ALSO lied to with the same story. However, since the auction was such a short time ago, it will not be long before we go through the entire chain of ownership.
Comments
<< <i>Now what have we learned from this occurence my children.
1. If a coin is too pretty to be true.......then it aint.
2. Dont be lulled into a false sense of security because a coin is slabbed
by a top tier TPG.
3.If your instincts are crying out to beware...........Listen to it.
4.If the toning is unusual and strays far from the norm...be wary
5.Some toned coins, with what appears to be impeccable credentials,
may have been enhanced.
6. Naturally toned coins which have been enhanced, are most difficult to
identify. This is because the coin has natural characteristics among the coloration.
7.The network of folks knowingly handling, producing and trading in such
coins is large, varied and far flung. That is why it is impossible to clean up.
the only thing that will stop this activity, is if collectors stop collecting toned coins
and stop paying sky high prices for them. It has happened before, could happen again.
8. Most average collectors can spot 4 out of 10 AT coins. An experienced dealer might spot
7 out of ten AT coins. A specialist might identify 8 out of 10 coins.Only God could spot all 10 AT Coins.
9. Market acceptable, is merely what the average gullible collector is willing to swallow.
10. When you buy a toned coins, realize there is always the risk that ,you will eventually bite the bird. >>
Thank you Bear. The only problem is, people buying toned coins or taking risks should know all of this BEFORE they get involved.
Anaconda, are you sure that the coin was "retoned" after the initial ATing? It's very likely that if the coin sat in that 2x2, or something else with NTing chemicals, the old colors could've/would've settled.
In the end, people spending big money for toning should know what they're getting into, and that there's serious risks; knowing what you're getting involved in from the start will help you avoid this situation. This ENTIRE story only helps to prove this point.
Kind of reminds me of a bridge that was for sale once upon a time. It's amazing what a story can do.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>it seems to me the next MONSTER colored coin that comes along,
you will have no problem selling it for moon money. thus, i conclude
you will not change in your ways of doing business.
if it was not for the poster who showed us this coin was AT,
you would have sold it with a smile on your face(s).
so what have you really learned and how will you change?
harsh words? i do not think so. >>
Rubbish!
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. >>
Is that a law firm headquarted in Texas?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. >>
Is that a law firm headquarted in Texas?
Russ, NCNE >>
Best post I've read today.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. Everytime I read a post that states a "well known coin doctor" or a "respected dealer" and names aren't named I know this chit will go on.
The reason I am not naming the dealer we got it from is because he was fooled as well. He didn't make up the story he was told. If I get to the bottom of this and find out exactly who it was who enhanced the coin and fabricated the story about it, they will be outed. The fact is, we still have to continue down the chain of ownership and determine who made the false story. It's not over yet. >>
So i gotta ask , why would a PCGS grader walk the coin over to an NGC table ?? I f he believed the coin real -
why not walk it over to PCGS table ?? and Why even bring it to you guys first , raw, i mean ?
You are to be commended for trying to tell the whole story....but the thing still stinks to high heaven
Thanks.
<< <i>I sense a backfire in place. >>
The wagons don't look like they are forming too good a circle around this one
<< <i>
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. Everytime I read a post that states a "well known coin doctor" or a "respected dealer" and names aren't named I know this chit will go on.
The reason I am not naming the dealer we got it from is because he was fooled as well. He didn't make up the story he was told. If I get to the bottom of this and find out exactly who it was who enhanced the coin and fabricated the story about it, they will be outed. The fact is, we still have to continue down the chain of ownership and determine who made the false story. It's not over yet. >>
So i gotta ask , why would a PCGS grader walk the coin over to an NGC table ?? I f he believed the coin real -
why not walk it over to PCGS table ?? and Why even bring it to you guys first , raw, i mean ?
You are to be commended for trying to tell the whole story....but the thing still stinks to high heaven >>
Those are actually good questions.
hmm
<< <i>
<< <i>Sadly it will be the same old tale, winken, blinken and nod. >>
Is that a law firm headquarted in Texas?
Russ, NCNE >>
No that would be winken, blinken and sod.
Your mother must of never read this to you at night.
Winken, Blinken, and Nod one night
Sailed off in a wooden shoe --
Sailed off on a river of crystal light,
Into a sea of dew.
"Where are you going, and what do you wish?"
The old moon asked the three.
"We have come to fish for the herring fish
That live in the beautiful sea;
Nets of silver and gold have we!"
Said Winken,
Blinken,
And Nod.
The old moon laughed and sang a song,
As they rocked in the wooden shoe,
And the wind that sped them al night long
Ruffled the waves of dew.
The little stars were the herring fish
That lived in the beautiful sea --
"Now cast your nets wherever you wish --
Never afeard are we";
So cried the stars to the fisherman three:
Winken,
Blinken,
And Nod.
All night long their nets they threw
To the stars in the twinkling foam --
Then down from the skies came the wooden shoe
Bringing the fisherman home;
'Twas all so pretty a sail it seemed
As if it could not be,
And some folks thought 'twas a dream they'd dreamed
Of sailing that beautiful sea --
But I shall name you the fishermen three:
Winken,
Blinken,
And Nod.
Winken and Blinken are two little eyes,
And Nod is a little head,
And the wooden shoes that sailed the skies
Is the wee one's trundle-bed.
So shut your eyes while mother sings
Of wonderful sights that be,
And you shall see the beautiful things
As you rock in the misty sea,
Where the old shoe rocked hte fisherman three:
Winken,
Blinken,
And Nod.
I did discuss this coin with Brandon shortly after he posted it - my comment was the the image had a "burned" look and I thought it might be "environmentally damaged" (It was, but not quite the way that I thought). Brandon indicated that it looked really neat in hand and you had to see it to appreciate the beauty of the coin. I've learned long ago that it is very difficult to assess the quality of any toned coin based on a digital or photographic image. What you see in the photo is often not what you get in hand. Sometimes you are pleasantly surprised - sometimes you are shocked - and not in a positive way.
As for determining AT or NT from an image, it is my opinion that it is almost impossible to make that call from any digital image that you see posted on the web, for the very reason that the coin in hand often looks very different than the image. Some images are very "optimistic", others are so bad that you think the coin is fugly and should be dipped but in hand you love the toning.
Brandon and I basically ended our conversation with me hoping that I'd be able to see the coin at the next show that we both attend, and his comment that he didn't think he'd have it that long.
As for the coin itself - it was not a coin that I found particularly attractive based on the image. I felt the toning on the central devices looked like the toning had "bonded" with the metal - much like rust on iron - not a toning look that I like or would want in my collection. I showed the image to my wife - who has a great eye for art and beauty and her reaction was "It's not pretty" - sometimes our non-collecting spouses have better instincts than us sophisticated collectors! On Peace dollars - the nicely toned ones are so few and far between that when we see one that has nice color we desperately want it to be the "real deal" - and in this instance, I think that may have "colored" the reality that there was something "Not right" about that coin.
This is not a criticism. When I bought (and paid stupid money) for what is now the TCCS logo coin (in a PCI holder! ) I remember thinking 2 things: 1) How could I be so stupid and 2) If that coin is AT, I want to meet the guy who did it! As it turned out, my appreciation for its beauty was even more appreciated by those who specialized in toned coins, and it was the impetus for starting TCCS. So when Brandon and Adrain stepped up and bought what turned out to in fact be an AT coin, they did no less than what most of us have done when we started into this very addictive aspect of coin collecting - They stuck their necks out and took a chance. It's unfortunate that their willingness to put their money into something that they believed was special turned out to be a mistake. But they didn't whine, they didn't blame anyone else, they immediately took steps to remove that coin from the market and have it removed from the NGC holder. NGC also deserves praise - not because they mistakenly slabbed a questionable coin, but because they immediately corrected their mistaken when it was brought to their attention.
In the end, both Anaconda Rare coins and NGC did the right thing, removed that coin from the market place and they are both better for the experience. Two companies that I would recommend and do business with. They deserve our respect. Publicly facing up to a problem and correcting it is not something you often see. They have made this hobby a little better by promptly fixing a serious problem.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Kudos to Brandon and Adrian. This matter has been handled superbly by Anaconda, with a lot of effort and expense on their part.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Fantastic integrity from you and your firm...Doug
I think it's a matter of looking at a lot of toned coins, asking people who know more than you questions about them, and learning everything you can. For example, I have an attractive small dentil dime. It was dipped at one time & retoned with gold and cobalt colors.
You need to have seen many coins of a specific series to know what a 'monster' should look like.
Another thing is that I NEVER buy anything raw. Except for EAC people, there's usually a reason why a coin is raw, and it probably is not a good thing for a perspective buyer. I also only buy from people that I know will stand behind any coin that they sell.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I don't really feel like being critical, but I think that keets makes some good points about the way the coin business runs, and why a lot of folks feel skeptical about the network of dealers. And I realize that a lot of folks like brandon or adrian, but I don't understand all of this back-patting they're getting for being so professional. Somewhat outed one of their 5 figure coins as being a $50 shake and bake special from an ebay seller that we've been laughing at for years. What were they supposed to do- ignore the evidence and still try to stick someone with the coin and it's hefty price tag?? They had no choice but to yank it and try to do some damage control and PR work. Are we that easily impressed around here???
You are right, and while I don't want to irritate you by saying this, I will. It's easy to be critical and say "they would have had to do this anyway, the pr and fence mending", but what you miss is the amount of time and effort that it actually takes to DO it, and not just let it slide... Yesterday's news is always as boring as snot; after a week the dragon slayers around here will be after another inequity (and iniquity, probably) in the coin world. Attention spans are short; quite frankly they COULD have chosen to hide and ride it out... But they didn't.
I am beginning to believe that the coin trade (not necessarily collecting) is similar to politics - like sausage making: enjoy the way it tastes, but don't look too closely at how it gets made. There are real bad actors out there - I don't think that Anaconda is one of them. At the end of the day, people rely on the trade for their livelihoods - and the ones who are willing to clean up after themselves I won't villify.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
You hit the nail on the head!!
Allen
Proud member of TCCS!
with that brief moment of ignorance which goose has saved by cut/paste, you have done three things:
1. moved completely off the "reasonable" radar screen.
2. endowed yourself with a claim to being on coiunguy's circle of trust™ whic entitles you to "first shot" status.
3. been removed from my legitimate collector list.
It looks like I killed three birds with one stone.
Come on.
You gotta admit, it is pretty funny.
It's just coins for goodness sakes! It isn't the Paris Peace talks.
peacockcoins
I am glad someone else thinks so. Other than one...sob...Peace dollar that was...sniffle...disfigured, no one was maimed or killed.
<< <i>Robert
with that brief moment of ignorance which goose has saved by cut/paste, you have done three things:
3. been removed from my legitimate collector list. >>
Ooooo. Now you're in trouble.
CG
I did not read it the same into it. I read this as like many dealers, no matter what their background, send many/most of their coins to NGC for two reasons:
1. Likelihood of getting the coin into a higher grade slab that can be sold for money.
2. Having a reasonable chance of getting the coin back before their grandchildren have grandchildren.
I don't really feel like being critical, but I think that keets makes some good points about the way the coin business runs, and why a lot of folks feel skeptical about the network of dealers. And I realize that a lot of folks like brandon or adrian, but I don't understand all of this back-patting they're getting for being so professional. Somewhat outed one of their 5 figure coins as being a $50 shake and bake special from an ebay seller that we've been laughing at for years. What were they supposed to do- ignore the evidence and still try to stick someone with the coin and it's hefty price tag?? They had no choice but to yank it and try to do some damage control and PR work. Are we that easily impressed around here???
I must say that I have to agree with myqqy's statement. I have nothing against Anaconda, but who would not have done the same? What were the alternatives? Relist the coin on ebay? Drop it "anonymously" in a Heritage auction? Attempt to "redocotor" it? Any reasonable businessperson would have done the same whether they were honorable or not--why all the congratulations? The real question is that if a collector were stung with such a coin, would he/she have had the resources to quietly get out of it like Anaconda did?
Mark et al.
I did not realize that it was mandatory to have a
My goodness. This is a friggin' hobby for most of us and a mostly pleasant "no one gets hurt or dies" business for the rest. I do not understand why people take some of these issues so seriously. This last statement was serious so no
<< <i>Robert
with that brief moment of ignorance which goose has saved by cut/paste, you have done three things:
1. moved completely off the "reasonable" radar screen.
2. endowed yourself with a claim to being on coiunguy's circle of trust™ whic entitles you to "first shot" status.
3. been removed from my legitimate collector list. >>
C'mon, Al... I think we all get what you want; they're not going to "out" anyone. Too much future business profits- it is what it is. So even if you (we) know names, what? Are we going to throw rocks at 'em? Vow to never, EVER do business with them? Make them the butt of jokes, or rumours? Trash them in private... Stick pins in dolls fashioned in thier likenesses?
You get what I mean. Matter of fact, I agree with your points; perhaps not your stridency, but certainly your point of view. I'm not going to tell you to lighten up - that would be demeaning and crass - I don't know you well enough to be demeaning and crass to you
Ads far as butt-kissing goes, or the Circle of Trust™... I've read enough of Robert's posts to disagree with your assessment of his motivation. I personally couldn't give one big wet poop if smoeone thinks I'm butt kissing, or a jerk, or anything else... I'm going to say what I feel and if you don't like it, don't read my posts. Snub me, even. I have a life. As I heard long ago: "What you think of me is none of my business".
Edit to correct *gasp* a keyboard error
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
<< <i>Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it! >>
<< <i>I highly doubt that an ex PCGS grader doesn't know AT. . >>
Cough cough...laughable...cough cough
This doctoring issue is so much more harmful to the hobby than the telemarketers and all those who screw the widows. Doctoring has the potential to bring down the entire hobby. The bottom line here is the destruction of collector confidence. The fact that it is only collectors screaming for names, and not the dealers, only lead me to believe the problem is too widespread to resolve. My take is that the dealer community as a whole is feeding the doctoring frenzy, or they are simply too intimidated to take action. In either case, the collector community has lost. The silence is deafening. Looks like business as usual.
And RYK, your "A Few Good Men" post is one of the funniest I've read in a long time.
<< <i>This is one of the funniest and scariest threads we've had in a long time. I hate to admit, but I am leaning towards Keets point of view here. This coin held the potential to screw a collector out of 12K. For me, that's enough to take down names and hold those involved responsible. Sorry Mark, it does matter who the ex-PCGS grader is. And more important, if the "enhancer" is not the PCGS grader, that individual should be outed as well. They can always defend their actions if innocent. It's all about dealer credibility and collector confidence in the hobby.
This doctoring issue is so much more harmful to the hobby than the telemarketers and all those who screw the widows. Doctoring has the potential to bring down the entire hobby. The bottom line here is the destruction of collector confidence. The fact that it is only collectors screaming for names, and not the dealers, only lead me to believe the problem is too widespread to resolve. My take is that the dealer community as a whole is feeding the doctoring frenzy, or they are simply too intimidated to take action. In either case, the collector community has lost. The silence is deafening. Looks like business as usual.
And RYK, your "A Few Good Men" post is one of the funniest I've read in a long time. >>
Yeah I don't understand the comment about the "other" enhancer. It is like the grassy knoll and Kennedy. There apparently were TWO coin doctors involved.
I think you're just trying to stir things up.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Stman,
I think you're just trying to stir things up.
Russ, NCNE >>
Only following your lead sir. You opened the door.
<< <i>Only following your lead sir. You opened the door. >>
My post was purely in the interest of edification. I just didn't want Laura to continue to labor under her misconception.
Russ, NCNE
simply put, i over-reacted and placed my foot smack dab in my mouth.
<< <i>I think we should be more concerned that Keets has never seen "A Few Good Men".
lol
Your update and frankness is very much appreciated. When more is certain PLEASE name the bay area dealer who submitted the coin in the 2X2 under apparently false pretenses.
Don
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks you Brandon for the followup. As you guys bought it already holdered it appears you were victims here too.
IS THIS THE END!!!
NO
Everyone involved should know who they bought from and there should be an easy trace down the line to the Ebay auction, heck it was only 60 days ago. Whomever submitted the coin with "80 years in an envelope story" should be "outted" and NGC should bar them from any future submissions. ANACS should sanction them.
What I see here is a scam that got short circuited and people would be screaming ..........except , it appears, NGC has picked up the tab to keep good PR. This doesn't change the facts. Someone knew it was bad, tried to pull a fast one and we still have not heard the whole story.
My guess is that with all the fast money made on these types of deals the dealer community is much more interested in putting this one to bed real fast. This type of PR is not good for the business. There's a lot more "toners" out there with 5 figures price tags waiting to be sold to the "lucky buyers" >>
Once again, Where is the scam, here?
In this case Brandon and Adrian stepped up and admitted they made a mistake...good for them. Great public relations.
NGC stepped up and their insurance company is going to make Anaconda whole...good for them. That is the reason for their guarantee.
The "respected one-time PCGS dealer" was made whole when he sold to Anaconda...good for him. That's why he's in business.
As for the person who sold it to the unnamed dealer above?
It make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE how the toning got onto the coin or how long it took...an owner thought it had pretty toning on it. AT or NT is irrelevant. Regardless of what he paid for it he is entitled to sell it for whatever price he can get for it. >>
I disagree. If what Brandon relates is correct (and I only state it that way as that beyond his purchase, what Brandon relates is secondhand). The "bay area dealer" deliberately misreprented the coin and lied about it blatently. He is NOT enitiled to lie (stating that the coin was in the 2x2 for years, etc) when he knows this to be false, and by doing so he forfeits his entitlement to sell the coin as if he is an honest man.
Don
<< <i>
<< <i>Except for the fact that he (the person who sold it to the dealer whom sold it to Anaconda) apparently knowingly/intentionally misrepresented the coin's history.
I don't know if this is applicable or not, but an old expression/legal term that I learned about in law school just came to mind - "fraud in the inducement", defined as :
"fraud in the inducement
n. the use of deceit or trick to cause someone to act to his/her disadvantage, such as signing an agreement or deeding away real property. The heart of this type of fraud is misleading the other party as to the facts upon which he/she will base his/her decision to act. " >>
Let me preface this with the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer...I don't play one on TV, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Yes, and this car was only driven by a little old lady to church on Sunday. You mean to tell me that some dealers embellish the truth????
The question then becomes:
How was the buyer disadvantaged? Toning is toning. NT or AT is irrelevant. A prospective buyer either likes the coin enough to pay the seller's price or he doesn't. It is not the seller's fault if the buyer cannot find another buyer willing to pay that much (or more) any more than it is your responsiblity to make sure I am not buried in a coin which I buy from you. Is it good business to do so? Of course it is and would probably result in enough repeat business to more than make up for the one time sale...
But in the end it is (and rightfully so) STILL the buyer who is responsible for his actions. >>
Of course a buyer is responsible for his actions. and we hope taht teh buyer of that used car takes what is said while thinking caveat emptor. BUT if someone I know and trust tells me that their mother drove the car, c hanged the oil, etc, I look at the car differently than if a "used car salesman" does. I HAVE to trust my doctor, lawyer, etc. One can't be an expert at everything.
Please be aware that we are trying to find out where the lies began. For all we know the bay area dealer was ALSO lied to with the same story. However, since the auction was such a short time ago, it will not be long before we go through the entire chain of ownership.