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Update on the Artificially Toned Peace Dollar - The Facts and Conclusion.
poorguy
Posts: 4,317 ✭
The events surrounding this coin are interesting to say the least. After some digging, calls back and fourth between the dealer we purchased it from and from NGC and after a few emails with a certain seller on eBay, several facts were made clear and we took the appropriate actions to remove this coin from the market.
1. The coin was artificially toned and then sold by gototoningcoins on eBay for $55.
2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either.
4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*.
6. He approached our table with the coin and was very excited. BlindedbyEgo from the boards was there during the transaction. With all of the known factors (well respected and honest dealer and ex-PCGS grader offering the coin and believing the color was authentic and had enough faith in it to buy it raw for a large chunk of change, it was bid on by at least two other dealers who also thought the color was real, and NGC Blessing it with an MS66 and a Star), we felt that since the coin had made it this far down the filtering process, it had to be real even though it had unusual toning.
7. After I had the coin imaged, Ron Sirna called me and told me that he thought the coin looked ED because of the deep toning on the central obverse. I agreed that the image made the toning look dark but in-hand it was more of a thick patination of powder blue. Again, this coin needs to be seen in-hand.
8. I did recieve other phone calls from those who specialize in toned coins and wanted to know how much the coin was. I am assuming that at the right number a sale would have been made but that's just speculation and there's been way too much of that around here lately so it doesn't matter.
9. I posted the coin on eBay with a very enthusiastic description which, in light of recent events, seems very laughable now. What I thought I knew about the coin, the fact that it was in an envelope for a very very long time, turned out to be very very false because the dealer we purchased it from was also taken by the story.
10. Pat Braddick made a thread with information and pictures from gototoning's ebay auction depiciting the very same Peace dollar. I commend Pat for bringing this situation to light. When I asked Pat about the information he told me that another dealer provided him with false information that "WE" were the original submitters to NGC and that this "dealer" has a personal problem with US. I would like to thank Pat for his openmindedness to this information because he knew the information was false and didn't post it even though it would have added some spice to the subject.
11. I immediately removed the eBay listing and the coin from our website as this information came to my attention so that I could investigate the matter thoroughly.
12. After making contact with both the dealer we purchased the coin from and NGC, an agreement was made to start the wheels of removing this coin from the market altogether. I asked the NGC representative whether the coin was submitted in a 2x2 envelope and they confirmed that it had been. I was instructed to send the coin to NGC for "appearance review" and I did so by shipping it overnight. Yesterday, I recieved a call from NGC about the coin and it was deemed that the coin is in-fact AT and should never have been holdered. An AT coin has been removed from the marketplace and everybody handled the situation in a very professional manner. NGC has stepped up to the plate to make sure everyone is satisfied with regards to buying this coin out of the market.
In summary, when we bought the coin, we thought the toning was unusual but original. It came with a story that explained the unusual toning. The story made sense to us, and it was brought to us in an NGC holder by an ex-PCGS grader who believed the toning was real. The coin fooled the exPCGS grader, it fooled the graders at NGC and it fooled us. We all believed the toning was real. When it came to light that it was AT, we took it off the market immediately and now the coin has been taken off the market permanently.
One final thought. It's a fact that artificially toned coins end up in PCGS and NGC holders. Some of them will seem to be obviously AT and others will look to all to be NT - the coin doctors have become that good. (By definition, you can't detect an AT coin that looks NT.) So regardless of whether you think the Peace dollar at hand appeared to be AT or NT or somewhere in between, I can't imagine any dealer claiming to have never mistakenly purchased an artificially toned coin. It happens to the best dealers. It happened to us. We've done the best job we could of fixing the problem. As Adrian stated earlier "we all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important."
Thanks to everyone who participated. Hopefully now things can roll on "Peace"-fully.
1. The coin was artificially toned and then sold by gototoningcoins on eBay for $55.
2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either.
4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*.
6. He approached our table with the coin and was very excited. BlindedbyEgo from the boards was there during the transaction. With all of the known factors (well respected and honest dealer and ex-PCGS grader offering the coin and believing the color was authentic and had enough faith in it to buy it raw for a large chunk of change, it was bid on by at least two other dealers who also thought the color was real, and NGC Blessing it with an MS66 and a Star), we felt that since the coin had made it this far down the filtering process, it had to be real even though it had unusual toning.
7. After I had the coin imaged, Ron Sirna called me and told me that he thought the coin looked ED because of the deep toning on the central obverse. I agreed that the image made the toning look dark but in-hand it was more of a thick patination of powder blue. Again, this coin needs to be seen in-hand.
8. I did recieve other phone calls from those who specialize in toned coins and wanted to know how much the coin was. I am assuming that at the right number a sale would have been made but that's just speculation and there's been way too much of that around here lately so it doesn't matter.
9. I posted the coin on eBay with a very enthusiastic description which, in light of recent events, seems very laughable now. What I thought I knew about the coin, the fact that it was in an envelope for a very very long time, turned out to be very very false because the dealer we purchased it from was also taken by the story.
10. Pat Braddick made a thread with information and pictures from gototoning's ebay auction depiciting the very same Peace dollar. I commend Pat for bringing this situation to light. When I asked Pat about the information he told me that another dealer provided him with false information that "WE" were the original submitters to NGC and that this "dealer" has a personal problem with US. I would like to thank Pat for his openmindedness to this information because he knew the information was false and didn't post it even though it would have added some spice to the subject.
11. I immediately removed the eBay listing and the coin from our website as this information came to my attention so that I could investigate the matter thoroughly.
12. After making contact with both the dealer we purchased the coin from and NGC, an agreement was made to start the wheels of removing this coin from the market altogether. I asked the NGC representative whether the coin was submitted in a 2x2 envelope and they confirmed that it had been. I was instructed to send the coin to NGC for "appearance review" and I did so by shipping it overnight. Yesterday, I recieved a call from NGC about the coin and it was deemed that the coin is in-fact AT and should never have been holdered. An AT coin has been removed from the marketplace and everybody handled the situation in a very professional manner. NGC has stepped up to the plate to make sure everyone is satisfied with regards to buying this coin out of the market.
In summary, when we bought the coin, we thought the toning was unusual but original. It came with a story that explained the unusual toning. The story made sense to us, and it was brought to us in an NGC holder by an ex-PCGS grader who believed the toning was real. The coin fooled the exPCGS grader, it fooled the graders at NGC and it fooled us. We all believed the toning was real. When it came to light that it was AT, we took it off the market immediately and now the coin has been taken off the market permanently.
One final thought. It's a fact that artificially toned coins end up in PCGS and NGC holders. Some of them will seem to be obviously AT and others will look to all to be NT - the coin doctors have become that good. (By definition, you can't detect an AT coin that looks NT.) So regardless of whether you think the Peace dollar at hand appeared to be AT or NT or somewhere in between, I can't imagine any dealer claiming to have never mistakenly purchased an artificially toned coin. It happens to the best dealers. It happened to us. We've done the best job we could of fixing the problem. As Adrian stated earlier "we all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important."
Thanks to everyone who participated. Hopefully now things can roll on "Peace"-fully.
Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com
3
Comments
<< <i>
2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
>>
hmmm
Russ, NCNE
Yes.
<< <i>Is anybody going after the original dealer who had it in his case in the bogus envelope and sold it raw?
Yes. >>
Not being in the "in-crowd" aka dealer crowd, in this industry, I am confused........aside from harassing him and outting him, what can be done by "going after him"?
A dark alley? Sending Russ down there without his cigarettes for a week?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I appreciate you spending the effort to track the history of this coin down. It seems to be a good conclusion.
<< <i>1. The coin was artificially toned and then sold by gototoningcoins on eBay for $55. >>
I'm sure he's laughing at everybody on his way to the bank from his toning factory.
<< <i>2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. >>
Sure, he needs a little help to get his work bumped up to the 5 figure level, but considering he mass produces these hopefully he can hook up with the professional doctor to create some more gems
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
you will have no problem selling it for moon money. thus, i conclude
you will not change in your ways of doing business.
if it was not for the poster who showed us this coin was AT,
you would have sold it with a smile on your face(s).
so what have you really learned and how will you change?
harsh words? i do not think so.
Free Trial
I believe that would be appropriate.............JMO...........
thanks
dking
<< <i>Is anybody going after the original dealer who had it in his case in the bogus envelope and sold it raw?
Russ, NCNE >>
Going after him in what way?
Apparently he lied about the origins of the coin. Maybe that's the story he received on the coin?
Sounds like the purchase was an auction type setting with bids being made. That could make a difference as well.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
Excellence in reporting, Brandon.
some guys still kick me in the shins for running away from them Toners
dare we dream
Is this dealer still "well respected" by you? Any chance he or his associates played any role in "enhancing" the coin? These are hypothetical questions of course.
Very much so.
Any chance he or his associates played any role in "enhancing" the coin?
No.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>Apparently he lied about the origins of the coin...
<< <i>
Hah! I know this is a huge generalization, but in my experience 98% of all coin dealers lie, and lie, and lie. No surprise here!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Good job Brandon and Adrian for the courage to right a wrong.
peacockcoins
I very much doubt that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>maybe that coin posse cop group will go after him and pat themselves on the back here afterwards and not divulge any pertinent details.
dare we dream >>
Somewhere, somehow I have to believe that most of us had a little voice inside of us saying looks AT.
The coin Doctors have Won...........believe it or not .
They took a common coin and gave it a price of $14,000..........You all objected to it......Why...??????
The Price was Too High.........
You have put a ceiling on their work. They now know not to exceed that limit.
Until someone is prosecuted with intent of fraud or commiting fraud this will go on and on and on........
Seriously.......kudos to all parties concerned for the way this situation was handeled.
This incident will make us all more carful and suspicious in the future.
To Pat, as always, an excellent and impartial job of sleuthing. Pretty soon
you might have to move your lodgings to "B Baker street, London"
That address, why , "elementary my dear Watson".
Camelot
<< <i>Well like I said I'd wait till I hear from some Seniors and Professionals in the matter if it makes a difference or not.
The coin Doctors have Won...........believe it or not .
They took a common coin and gave it a price of $14,000..........You all objected to it......Why...??????
The Price was Too High.........
You have put a ceiling on their work. They now know not to exceed that limit.
Until someone is prosecuted with intent of fraud or commiting fraud this will go on and on and on........ >>
Hmmm
The coin doctor didn't put the price on the coin. The price the coin doctor got was $55.00 (I guess from what others posted).
The objection wasn't over the price...IMO
How can you prosecute someone for toning a coin? All toned coins were made that way because of man. They are all AT when you get down to it. Perhaps this coin doctor is telling everyone that the coins came out of mint bags looking like this? I don't know. I have never viewed his auctions. Apparently A TON of members have. How is this coin doctor selling the coins? Is he making comments that would hold up as fraud in court?
I think it would be very difficult to prosecute a case over a toned coin. But who knows in today world. Anything could happen.
All coins are AT when you get RIGHT down to it. So where would the legal system draw the line? I don't know.
all my opinion only
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Brandon, thanks for the update and for a great attitude/stance, considering all that transpired.
<<it seems to me the next MONSTER colored coin that comes along,
you will have no problem selling it for moon money. thus, i conclude
you will not change in your ways of doing business.
if it was not for the poster who showed us this coin was AT,
you would have sold it with a smile on your face(s).
so what have you really learned and how will you change?
harsh words? i do not think so.>>
FC, I wont speak for Anaconda (or NGC for that matter), but expect that more caution and scrutiny will be involved in the future. I say that, even though I don't think it's fair to blame them for being fooled by and enthusiastic about the coin. Personally, I think those were harsh comments/questions, but it's hard to arrive at unanimous opinions around here anyway.
After reading this I keep thinking back to the other dollar they had a problem with a year or so ago. Somehow it looks as if they think they can make a killing this same mode of operation will continue.
Ken
perhaps if collectors stopped doing business with dealers who cover for other dealers who pull crap like this, the crap would stop. so long as the collecting community doesn't really know who the "good guys" are without the foxes(read: dealers) making the list, we'll continue to be preyed upon as they laugh all the way to the bank.
<< <i>Brandon, excellent follow up report and correct actions taken.
This incident will make us all more carful and suspicious in the future.
To Pat, as always, an excellent and impartial job of sleuthing. Pretty soon
you might have to move your lodgings to "B Baker street, London"
That address, why , "elementary my dear Watson".
I agree. I commend you for coming forward with all of the details. We all make mistakes.
As one other posted asked, and I'm sure we are all curious, what did NGC do for you? Were you made whole? Does it depend on whether someone successfully recovers from the other dealers involved?
That said, I think a $12 Peace dollar shaked and baked with that level of skill *is* worth $55.
IS THIS THE END!!!
NO
Everyone involved should know who they bought from and there should be an easy trace down the line to the Ebay auction, heck it was only 60 days ago. Whomever submitted the coin with "80 years in an envelope story" should be "outted" and NGC should bar them from any future submissions. ANACS should sanction them.
What I see here is a scam that got short circuited and people would be screaming ..........except , it appears, NGC has picked up the tab to keep good PR. This doesn't change the facts. Someone knew it was bad, tried to pull a fast one and we still have not heard the whole story.
My guess is that with all the fast money made on these types of deals the dealer community is much more interested in putting this one to bed real fast. This type of PR is not good for the business. There's a lot more "toners" out there with 5 figures price tags waiting to be sold to the "lucky buyers"
Drop them all - AT and NT - to three figures and your problem will be solved.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The reason I am not naming the dealer we got it from is because he was fooled as well. He didn't make up the story he was told. If I get to the bottom of this and find out exactly who it was who enhanced the coin and fabricated the story about it, they will be outed. The fact is, we still have to continue down the chain of ownership and determine who made the false story. It's not over yet.
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
<< <i>Thanks you Brandon for the followup. As you guys bought it already holdered it appears you were victims here too.
IS THIS THE END!!!
NO
Everyone involved should know who they bought from and there should be an easy trace down the line to the Ebay auction, heck it was only 60 days ago. Whomever submitted the coin with "80 years in an envelope story" should be "outted" and NGC should bar them from any future submissions. ANACS should sanction them.
What I see here is a scam that got short circuited and people would be screaming ..........except , it appears, NGC has picked up the tab to keep good PR. This doesn't change the facts. Someone knew it was bad, tried to pull a fast one and we still have not heard the whole story.
My guess is that with all the fast money made on these types of deals the dealer community is much more interested in putting this one to bed real fast. This type of PR is not good for the business. There's a lot more "toners" out there with 5 figures price tags waiting to be sold to the "lucky buyers" >>
Once again, Where is the scam, here?
In this case Brandon and Adrian stepped up and admitted they made a mistake...good for them. Great public relations.
NGC stepped up and their insurance company is going to make Anaconda whole...good for them. That is the reason for their guarantee.
The "respected one-time PCGS dealer" was made whole when he sold to Anaconda...good for him. That's why he's in business.
As for the person who sold it to the unnamed dealer above?
It make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE how the toning got onto the coin or how long it took...an owner thought it had pretty toning on it. AT or NT is irrelevant. Regardless of what he paid for it he is entitled to sell it for whatever price he can get for it.
with all due respect, Brandon, EVERYONE involved needs to be named, starting with gototoning and ending with your firm. i fail to understand how any harm can come from that but can readily see the good in it-----the revelation of a dealer/collector/individual who should be avoided and somehow sanctioned. at least one individual and quite probably more acted to deliberately deceive and defraud. that should't be protected or toerated no matter how much of a "good guy" everyone thinks the individual is.
the bottom line is simple------do we really want this kind of thing to end????
if the answer is yes, the action to take is clear.
if half measures are taken and names are withheld to protect the guilty, well, the answer is obvious.
as goose said, just hand it off to the coin posse and they can take care of things for their own benefit and not tell us anything. business as usual, and i wonder why dealers suffer from bad PR.
Why do I think that....Simple. No names!
NGC knows exactly who gave them that coin.
1. If a coin is too pretty to be true.......then it aint.
2. Dont be lulled into a false sense of security because a coin is slabbed
by a top tier TPG.
3.If your instincts are crying out to beware...........Listen to it.
4.If the toning is unusual and strays far from the norm...be wary
5.Some toned coins, with what appears to be impeccable credentials,
may have been enhanced.
6. Naturally toned coins which have been enhanced, are most difficult to
identify. This is because the coin has natural characteristics among the coloration.
7.The network of folks knowingly handling, producing and trading in such
coins is large, varied and far flung. That is why it is impossible to clean up.
the only thing that will stop this activity, is if collectors stop collecting toned coins
and stop paying sky high prices for them. It has happened before, could happen again.
8. Most average collectors can spot 4 out of 10 AT coins. An experienced dealer might spot
7 out of ten AT coins. A specialist might identify 8 out of 10 coins.Only God could spot all 10 AT Coins.
9. Market acceptable, is merely what the average gullible collector is willing to swallow.
10. When you buy a toned coins, realize there is always the risk that ,you will eventually bite the bird.
Camelot
<< <i>apparently knowingly/intentionally misrepresented the coin's history. >>
You hit it on the nail. There was a story that came with it to trick others. Why do you lie to deceive unless you know you need to cover something up. Someone made up a story, scored a big profit and will now walk away. (or maybe not?) And what about the "additional enhancement", might as well have forged a check.
Is this type of event so common in the coin business that most don't even considered it a bad thing.
Think of the poor fool who might have paid 12K and put this in his retirement fund believing the "story"
i think it's common enough, just not well known to the collector community. most dealers know who to avoid, who's disreputable, but i don't think it serves them well to have the collector community know. we can take their word for it that they take care of things and i believe that to a certain degree dealers do police themselves. that falls short of what they need to do, though.
we're talking about what's good for the hobby, not what's good for dealers. sometimes i think dealers view the two as the same thing.
<< <i>
<< <i>It make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE how the toning got onto the coin or how long it took...an owner thought it had pretty toning on it. AT or NT is irrelevant. Regardless of what he paid for it he is entitled to sell it for whatever price he can get for it. >>
Except for the fact that he (the person who sold it to the dealer whom sold it to Anaconda) apparently knowingly/intentionally misrepresented the coin's history.
I don't know if this is applicable or not, but an old expression/legal term that I learned about in law school just came to mind - "fraud in the inducement", defined as :
"fraud in the inducement
n. the use of deceit or trick to cause someone to act to his/her disadvantage, such as signing an agreement or deeding away real property. The heart of this type of fraud is misleading the other party as to the facts upon which he/she will base his/her decision to act. " >>
I also learned in the school of hard knocks to believe only 10% of what people tell me and the past 3 years nothing of what the neocons and rightwing religious nutbags tell me.
<< <i>Except for the fact that he (the person who sold it to the dealer whom sold it to Anaconda) apparently knowingly/intentionally misrepresented the coin's history.
I don't know if this is applicable or not, but an old expression/legal term that I learned about in law school just came to mind - "fraud in the inducement", defined as :
"fraud in the inducement
n. the use of deceit or trick to cause someone to act to his/her disadvantage, such as signing an agreement or deeding away real property. The heart of this type of fraud is misleading the other party as to the facts upon which he/she will base his/her decision to act. " >>
Let me preface this with the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer...I don't play one on TV, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Yes, and this car was only driven by a little old lady to church on Sunday. You mean to tell me that some dealers embellish the truth????
The question then becomes:
How was the buyer disadvantaged? Toning is toning. NT or AT is irrelevant. A prospective buyer either likes the coin enough to pay the seller's price or he doesn't. It is not the seller's fault if the buyer cannot find another buyer willing to pay that much (or more) any more than it is your responsiblity to make sure I am not buried in a coin which I buy from you. Is it good business to do so? Of course it is and would probably result in enough repeat business to more than make up for the one time sale...
But in the end it is (and rightfully so) STILL the buyer who is responsible for his actions.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It make ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE how the toning got onto the coin or how long it took...an owner thought it had pretty toning on it. AT or NT is irrelevant. Regardless of what he paid for it he is entitled to sell it for whatever price he can get for it. >>
Except for the fact that he (the person who sold it to the dealer whom sold it to Anaconda) apparently knowingly/intentionally misrepresented the coin's history.
I don't know if this is applicable or not, but an old expression/legal term that I learned about in law school just came to mind - "fraud in the inducement", defined as :
"fraud in the inducement
n. the use of deceit or trick to cause someone to act to his/her disadvantage, such as signing an agreement or deeding away real property. The heart of this type of fraud is misleading the other party as to the facts upon which he/she will base his/her decision to act. " >>
I also learned in the school of hard knocks to believe only 10% of what people tell me and the past 3 years nothing of what the neocons and rightwing religious nutbags tell me.
Hey hey, how'd politics and religions get in here?