<<< The fact that the coin was graded by NGC is highly disturbing and I can only hope that the internal workings of NGC are analyzed and the paradigm changed so that carelessness such as this is not repeated. >>>
It has,and has effected the small collector that can't get a toned coin certified by NGC that's legit.
Wonderful post, very educational. It seems to me that the TPGs could take one very giant step towards reducing AT. They could gurantee the grade of the coin only and not the toning of the coin. Thus, if a coin was found to be AT, but authentic and graded properly, then the TPG would not be on the hook for any $. This would force the coin buyers to assume responsibility for the toning of the coin.
I too think that names should named. I also find it disturbing that a company that specializes in toned coins can be duped like this. What does this say for their other coins. If this was a well respected antique dealer whose "Ming Vase" turned out to be a modern fake, they would be out of business.
regardless of how respected certain dealers may be on the bourse or the PCGS forum, and remember that "respected" does not entirely equate to "knowledgeable"
Sorry to be so late to this party...so I'll just cut and paste the comments I agree with most. I liked this first one by Tom.
amateur dealers could bury their clients in a coin inadvertantly while professional dealers could bury their client in a coin deliberately
Another beauty by Tom who credits it originally to Laura.
I highly doubt that an ex PCGS grader doesn't know AT. Coins do turn after grading, but from the little I can gather, this coin was clear AT as can be. I also highly doubt the dealers story.
From Laura. The merits of this comment aren't diminished by responses that other AT coins have gotten into PCGS slabs. We all know 'tricky' coins can get in slabs, and it sometimes takes the grading services a while to see enough of the same kind of AT to get the drift that they are being had. Once they get it...they stop slabbing them. This coin, however, was not 'tricky' and wasn't the product of a new technique. It should have been outed easily by any of the big players involved here. So I may modify Laura's comment to say 'I highly doubt that an ex PCGS grader wouldn't know this coin was likely AT'. And if he didn't, I agree with those who say his identity should be disclosed.
perhaps if collectors stopped doing business with dealers who cover for other dealers who pull crap like this, the crap would stop. so long as the collecting community doesn't really know who the "good guys" are without the foxes(read: dealers) making the list, we'll continue to be preyed upon as they laugh all the way to the bank.
There's more truth to this Keet's observation than I would like to admit. The refusal to to post ALL the facts, including people involved, in a thread titled 'The Facts and Conclusion', leave little doubt that there is some element of 'us vs. them' (meaning dealers vs. collectors) mentality going on here. The players involved here have made a conscious decision that their future business interests with some dealers outweigh the collectors desire to know who the dealers were. That's a legitimate decision to make...and I might make the same one...but it is disingenuous to hide behind the pretense that the other participants names are not 'relevant' to the story.
Market acceptable, is merely what the average gullible collector is willing to swallow.
I like this one by Bear. I think he has it pegged. I would may add only: 'Market acceptable, it merely what the coin doctors can get slabbed by the major TPG and the average gullible collector is willing to pay a premium for'.
That's why it is impossible to clean up (meaning coin doctoring) The only thing that will stop this activity, is if collectors stop collecting toned coins
And this other Bear comment pretty much summarizes what I think we can hope to expect to accomplish in this area. In short, not much, because the coin doctors conduct is driven by the unsatisfied demand from collectors for these coins. If the coins didn't sell for a premium, not a person in the world would be interested in learning and perfecting the techniqes to color them.
I can't resist a parting shot at the 'Coin Posse'. If this is what we can expect in the market place after all of their efforts that we have been assured are going on behind the scenes...I'm not impressed.
<< Ahhhh, to your point Don and mine, it has been handled to professionaly, to slick, something stinks. Tbig >>
Please translate. >>
Yes... please do
it means Anaconda came up with a real plan to handle this. It was seriously bad for them. Every base was covered, info given out with a teaspoon, dealers rounding up the wagons in protection of their own, and etc...
translate? heh. dizzyfox, i wonder how many of your coins are AT? edited to add: this whole scenario has thrown doubt upon your collection and you seem kinda happy about it, not upset at all.
<< <i>Do we have "THE TRUTH" yet or have the circled wagons repelled all the indians? >>
Come on now---I thought this all blew over already----Keep it quiet just a little bit longer and it will all be forgotten. Just the way it was planned for.
<< <i>Wonderful post, very educational. It seems to me that the TPGs could take one very giant step towards reducing AT. They could gurantee the grade of the coin only and not the toning of the coin. Thus, if a coin was found to be AT, but authentic and graded properly, then the TPG would not be on the hook for any $. This would force the coin buyers to assume responsibility for the toning of the coin.
I too think that names should named. I also find it disturbing that a company that specializes in toned coins can be duped like this. What does this say for their other coins. If this was a well respected antique dealer whose "Ming Vase" turned out to be a modern fake, they would be out of business.
Andy >>
I agree with grading and NOT guaranteeing NT, but the "fake Ming Vases" example of Andy shows a big reverse problem. Two years ago a NY Auction house lost $100,000's of thousands because they sold a rare Tong Vase as Andy mentioned, that was represented " in the "style of" --ie maybe fake--. The $10,000 Vase resold in Hong Kong 6 months later for I think around $700,000.00 !! The Hong Kong bidders knew the real thing and the consigner who had stupidly trusted the experts in NY lost a ton, sued the auction and essentially put the Auction House out of business. If NGC/PCGS misses a rare Special Branch Mint Proof, or doesn't know toning, and the seller takes their (NCS) word, then TPG's could have the same proble themselves !!-- The only solution is have graders go to shows, look at solid coins and doctered stuff so they're the experts thay claim to be!!
I can't resist a parting shot at the 'Coin Posse'. If this is what we can expect in the market place after all of their efforts that we have been assured are going on behind the scenes...I'm not impressed.
I don't think you're alone- many people see incidents like this as being evidence of a very inadequate posse....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>Has there been any follow up on this? Anaconda folks, if you can provide updates, even to say there is no new info, it will be apppreciated. Don >>
<< <i>Do we have "THE TRUTH" yet or have the circled wagons repelled all the indians? >>
Come on now---I thought this all blew over already----Keep it quiet just a little bit longer and it will all be forgotten. Just the way it was planned for. >>
way, way too many "dealers" and other suspects included that need to be named from lines--2--3--4--6--8 who would be added to my growing list of "Ten Foot Pole" candidates. strangely, it's easy enough to name the names of forum members. C'mon Brandon, you and Adrian are supposed to be better than this.
perhaps the biggest surprise of this whole episode is that member Braddick gets an attaboy for his help, only to be exposed six months later as a co-conspirator/GMarguli stooge in the BlueIndian™ scandal!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The coin was artificially toned and then sold by gototoningcoins on eBay for $55.
2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either.
4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*.
6. He approached our table with the coin and was very excited. BlindedbyEgo from the boards was there during the transaction. With all of the known factors (well respected and honest dealer and ex-PCGS grader offering the coin and believing the color was authentic and had enough faith in it to buy it raw for a large chunk of change, it was bid on by at least two other dealers who also thought the color was real, and NGC Blessing it with an MS66 and a Star), we felt that since the coin had made it this far down the filtering process, it had to be real even though it had unusual toning.
7. After I had the coin imaged, Ron Sirna called me and told me that he thought the coin looked ED because of the deep toning on the central obverse. I agreed that the image made the toning look dark but in-hand it was more of a thick patination of powder blue. Again, this coin needs to be seen in-hand.
8. I did recieve other phone calls from those who specialize in toned coins and wanted to know how much the coin was. I am assuming that at the right number a sale would have been made but that's just speculation and there's been way too much of that around here lately so it doesn't matter.
9. I posted the coin on eBay with a very enthusiastic description which, in light of recent events, seems very laughable now. What I thought I knew about the coin, the fact that it was in an envelope for a very very long time, turned out to be very very false because the dealer we purchased it from was also taken by the story.
10. Pat Braddick made a thread with information and pictures from gototoning's ebay auction depiciting the very same Peace dollar. I commend Pat for bringing this situation to light. When I asked Pat about the information he told me that another dealer provided him with false information that "WE" were the original submitters to NGC and that this "dealer" has a personal problem with US. I would like to thank Pat for his openmindedness to this information because he knew the information was false and didn't post it even though it would have added some spice to the subject.
11. I immediately removed the eBay listing and the coin from our website as this information came to my attention so that I could investigate the matter thoroughly.
12. After making contact with both the dealer we purchased the coin from and NGC, an agreement was made to start the wheels of removing this coin from the market altogether. I asked the NGC representative whether the coin was submitted in a 2x2 envelope and they confirmed that it had been. I was instructed to send the coin to NGC for "appearance review" and I did so by shipping it overnight. Yesterday, I recieved a call from NGC about the coin and it was deemed that the coin is in-fact AT and should never have been holdered. An AT coin has been removed from the marketplace and everybody handled the situation in a very professional manner. NGC has stepped up to the plate to make sure everyone is satisfied with regards to buying this coin out of the market.
In summary, when we bought the coin, we thought the toning was unusual but original. It came with a story that explained the unusual toning. The story made sense to us, and it was brought to us in an NGC holder by an ex-PCGS grader who believed the toning was real. The coin fooled the exPCGS grader, it fooled the graders at NGC and it fooled us. We all believed the toning was real. When it came to light that it was AT, we took it off the market immediately and now the coin has been taken off the market permanently.
One final thought. It's a fact that artificially toned coins end up in PCGS and NGC holders. Some of them will seem to be obviously AT and others will look to all to be NT - the coin doctors have become that good. (By definition, you can't detect an AT coin that looks NT.) So regardless of whether you think the Peace dollar at hand appeared to be AT or NT or somewhere in between, I can't imagine any dealer claiming to have never mistakenly purchased an artificially toned coin. It happens to the best dealers. It happened to us. We've done the best job we could of fixing the problem. As Adrian stated earlier "we all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important."
Thanks to everyone who participated. Hopefully now things can roll on "Peace"-fully.
perhaps the biggest surprise of this whole episode is that member Braddick gets an attaboy for his help, only to be exposed six months later as a co-conspirator/GMarguli stooge in the BlueIndian™ scandal!!!!
<< <i>4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*. >>
<< <i>I will certainly do some investigative work into this coin's background with the seller on eBay. >>
<< <i>Please be aware that we are trying to find out where the lies began. For all we know the bay area dealer was ALSO lied to with the same story. However, since the auction was such a short time ago, it will not be long before we go through the entire chain of ownership. >>
<< <i>The coin is currently en-route to NGC and they have confirmed that it WAS originally submitted in a 2x2 envelope by the dealer we purchased it from. I will disclose the details when this matter is resolved. >>
I don't have the pictures, but I did save the detailed description:
To understand how rare color like this on a Peace dollar is, I will have to take a moment to explain. First of all, Peace dollars were not extensively stored in the treasury vaults for decades such as Morgan dollars were. Most of them did make it out into commerce and many stayed in mint condition at banks and some at the treasury. Naturally, the morgan dollars toned in the mint bags over decades and produced thousands upon thousands of impressively toned coins whereas the lowly Peace dollars didn't stay in one place long enough to attain such heavenly toning. The ones that did tone developed mostly dusty auburn or golden hues. However, there are some exceptions to this harsh reality, as is the case for this very Peace dollar. I have seen probably 5-6 Peace dollars with very exceptional toning and most of those that I have seen exhibit some sort of paper or envelope toning and none of them are as richly toned as this example. This type of color is different from the deep tones generated by bags in that it produces lighter pastel shades. I can only imagine how long this coin sat stored in the 2x2 envelope. I would guess that it sat in there for 80 years nearly undisturbed. It would explain alot since who would bother to open a 2x2 envelope with a common date Peace dollar marked on the front? Especially if it sat in some obscure collection for decades.
These words reveal as much as any picture possibly could.
<< <i>perhaps the biggest surprise of this whole episode is that member Braddick gets an attaboy for his help, only to be exposed six months later as a co-conspirator/GMarguli stooge in the BlueIndian™ scandal!!!! How ironic. >>
Toned coins are one massive expensive deceitful racket where the participants either nudge each other and wink or go into denial about what they might have bought.
<< <i>Sure are a lot of them Blue proof IHCs up for sale these days. Are they from a newly discovered hoard? >>
Or are they from nefarious sources previously or currently, and/or even newly-identified AT coins simply being dumped by their owners, or some combination thereof ?
But what does that have to do with the AT Peace dollar?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
That blue Indian dealer has to be back from vacation by now...maybe he can fill us in on any new blue Indian developments... Anyone remember the title of that tread so we can TTT it for him so maybe he "remembers" something...?
I got permission from the dealer that we bought the coin after asking him several times for information about who he purchased it from. He told me he was a small local dealer and couldn't remember the name and didn't know where the invoice was. Since I couldn't get anything else from this individual about who he got it from, all I can do it post (and with his permission) who we got it from. We purchased the coin from Ken Park. If you want to pursue the truth further than the facts I provided, be my guest. The coin was taken off the market as soon as it was determined to be AT. Life rolls on. There, happy?
<< <i>Not as I understand it. I believe that NGC took the coin off the market and presumably made Anaconda whole. >>
That was a question I was just about to ask. Does "taken off the market" mean NGC bought it per their grade guarantee, the coin was cracked out and dipped or did Adrian stick it in the back of his sock drawer?
one thought that comes back to me over and over again about this whole AT topic is the number of coins being removed from the marketplace. can anyone tell me if all the colored coins being shopped around are permanently damaged or can they be conserved or somehow returned to their previous state of preservation?? i assume that a coin that's been heated to alter the color is damaged beyond repair, but what about chemically altered coins?? are these MS70 Blue IHC's that color forever?? looking at one individual alone, Gototoning, the number of coins being lost may be staggering. with the limited number of IHC Proofs which exist as problem free and collectible coins, can we afford to lose any to this growing scandal??
<< <i>I got permission from the dealer that we bought the coin after asking him several times for information about who he purchased it from. He told me he was a small local dealer and couldn't remember the name and didn't know where the invoice was. Since I couldn't get anything else from this individual about who he got it from, all I can do it post (and with his permission) who we got it from. We purchased the coin from Ken Park. If you want to pursue the truth further than the facts I provided, be my guest. The coin was taken off the market as soon as it was determined to be AT. Life rolls on. There, happy? >>
Poorguy stated that he would investigate the issue, follow the chain of ownership, and get back to us. That was February. Despite several polite requests over the interim, no information was forthcoming until your post above.
<< <i>"There, happy" >>
does not seem appropriate given those circumstances. If you have the stomach, you might reread my previous posts in this thread. I was polite, and I praised the manner in which Brandon dealt with the issue.
A representative of your firm stated that the dealer who bought the coin at LB (whom we now know to be Ken Park) had purchased it from "a bay area dealer" (poorguy's words) who sold it to Mr. Park, after "enhancing its appearance to make it appear more natural"(again, poorguy's words) and lying about it's provenance. We're talking about an AT MS66 "star" which sold raw for $55 on ebay (seller the infamous gototoningcoins) a very short time before your firm listed it for sale for and your associate posted it here with the descriptor
<< <i>"Quite Possibly the Finest Toned Peace Dollar in Existence!" >>
and the coin was selling for $14,000.
Brandon wrote
<< <i>"Purchased at Long Beach from a dealer who had just purchased it raw at the show in an old 2x2 envelope. " >>
, then
<< <i>"2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this. 3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either. ' >>
There are only so many "bay area dealers". It strains credibilty to believe that anyone, much less a former PCGS grader, looking at a raw Peace dollar which is "possibly the finest in existence", and shortly therafter knowing that the coin had been altered, and sold to Mr Park under false pretense, wouldn't know more details. I don't know Ken Park, but if someone here does, I'd appreciate more information from him. I live in the Bay area, and if a former PCGS grader can be fooled by a coin, I certainly can.
We should not accept deliberate fraud (which is what "enhancing a coins appearance to make it appear more natural" and lying about a coin's provenance in order to enhance its value involves, IMO) here. Don
<< <i>Poorguy stated that he would investigate the issue, follow the chain of ownership, and get back to us. That was February. Despite several polite requests over the interim, no information was forthcoming until your post above.
<< "There, happy" >>
does not seem appropriate given those circumstances. If you have the stomach, you might reread my previous posts in this thread. I was polite, and I praised the manner in which Brandon dealt with the issue. >>
As much as I would have liked too, I would loved to have dropped EVERYTHING and flew out to California and began a manhunt for this guy. I could have called the FBI but figured they didn't give a hoot. I called Ken twice to get information on the guy he bought it from. He didn't have the invoice and couldn't remember the guy's name he bought it from. Did you expect me to pull out the bay area phonebook and just start cold-calling coin dealers there? Any one of you who are complaining could have pulled out a phonebook and started calling bay-area dealers as you had (with the information I posted in the first post) exactly as much info as I had.
What more could I do to make everyone happy short of re-arranging the priorities in my life and devoting all of my time an energy to determining who the guy was who sold Ken this coin?
"We should not accept deliberate fraud (which is what "enhancing a coins appearance to make it appear more natural" and lying about a coin's provenance in order to enhance its value involves, IMO) here. Don"
Without commenting onthis thread in ANY way - of course,
Comments
It has,and has effected the small collector that can't get a toned coin certified by NGC that's legit.
I too think that names should named. I also find it disturbing that a company that specializes in toned coins can be duped like this. What does this say for their other coins. If this was a well respected antique dealer whose "Ming Vase" turned out to be a modern fake, they would be out of business.
Andy
Andy
Sorry to be so late to this party...so I'll just cut and paste the comments I agree with most. I liked this first one by Tom.
amateur dealers could bury their clients in a coin inadvertantly while professional dealers could bury their client in a coin deliberately
Another beauty by Tom who credits it originally to Laura.
I highly doubt that an ex PCGS grader doesn't know AT. Coins do turn after grading, but from the little I can gather, this coin was clear AT as can be. I also highly doubt the dealers story.
From Laura. The merits of this comment aren't diminished by responses that other AT coins have gotten into PCGS slabs. We all know 'tricky' coins can get in slabs, and it sometimes takes the grading services a while to see enough of the same kind of AT to get the drift that they are being had. Once they get it...they stop slabbing them. This coin, however, was not 'tricky' and wasn't the product of a new technique. It should have been outed easily by any of the big players involved here. So I may modify Laura's comment to say 'I highly doubt that an ex PCGS grader wouldn't know this coin was likely AT'. And if he didn't, I agree with those who say his identity should be disclosed.
perhaps if collectors stopped doing business with dealers who cover for other dealers who pull crap like this, the crap would stop. so long as the collecting community doesn't really know who the "good guys" are without the foxes(read: dealers) making the list, we'll continue to be preyed upon as they laugh all the way to the bank.
There's more truth to this Keet's observation than I would like to admit. The refusal to to post ALL the facts, including people involved, in a thread titled 'The Facts and Conclusion', leave little doubt that there is some element of 'us vs. them' (meaning dealers vs. collectors) mentality going on here. The players involved here have made a conscious decision that their future business interests with some dealers outweigh the collectors desire to know who the dealers were. That's a legitimate decision to make...and I might make the same one...but it is disingenuous to hide behind the pretense that the other participants names are not 'relevant' to the story.
Market acceptable, is merely what the average gullible collector is willing to swallow.
I like this one by Bear. I think he has it pegged. I would may add only: 'Market acceptable, it merely what the coin doctors can get slabbed by the major TPG and the average gullible collector is willing to pay a premium for'.
That's why it is impossible to clean up (meaning coin doctoring) The only thing that will stop this activity, is if collectors stop collecting toned coins
And this other Bear comment pretty much summarizes what I think we can hope to expect to accomplish in this area. In short, not much, because the coin doctors conduct is driven by the unsatisfied demand from collectors for these coins. If the coins didn't sell for a premium, not a person in the world would be interested in learning and perfecting the techniqes to color them.
I can't resist a parting shot at the 'Coin Posse'. If this is what we can expect in the market place after all of their efforts that we have been assured are going on behind the scenes...I'm not impressed.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
wrong thread.
sorry
>>
Please translate. >>
Yes... please do
it means Anaconda came up with a real plan to handle this. It was seriously
bad for them. Every base was covered, info given out with a teaspoon,
dealers rounding up the wagons in protection of their own, and etc...
translate? heh. dizzyfox, i wonder how many of your coins are AT?
edited to add: this whole scenario has thrown doubt upon your collection
and you seem kinda happy about it, not upset at all.
"You can't handle the truth!"
<< <i>Do we have "THE TRUTH" yet or have the circled wagons repelled all the indians? >>
Come on now---I thought this all blew over already----Keep it quiet just a little bit longer and it will all be forgotten. Just the way it was planned for.
Robert A. Heinlein
<< <i>Wonderful post, very educational. It seems to me that the TPGs could take one very giant step towards reducing AT. They could gurantee the grade of the coin only and not the toning of the coin. Thus, if a coin was found to be AT, but authentic and graded properly, then the TPG would not be on the hook for any $. This would force the coin buyers to assume responsibility for the toning of the coin.
I too think that names should named. I also find it disturbing that a company that specializes in toned coins can be duped like this. What does this say for their other coins. If this was a well respected antique dealer whose "Ming Vase" turned out to be a modern fake, they would be out of business.
Andy >>
I agree with grading and NOT guaranteeing NT, but the "fake Ming Vases" example of Andy shows a big reverse problem. Two years ago a NY Auction house lost $100,000's of thousands because they sold a rare Tong Vase as Andy mentioned, that was represented " in the "style of" --ie maybe fake--. The $10,000 Vase resold in Hong Kong 6 months later for I think around $700,000.00 !! The Hong Kong bidders knew the real thing and the consigner who had stupidly trusted the experts in NY lost a ton, sued the auction and essentially put the Auction House out of business. If NGC/PCGS misses a rare Special Branch Mint Proof, or doesn't know toning, and the seller takes their (NCS) word, then TPG's could have the same proble themselves !!-- The only solution is have graders go to shows, look at solid coins and doctered stuff so they're the experts thay claim to be!!
I don't think you're alone- many people see incidents like this as being evidence of a very inadequate posse....
Don
<< <i>Has there been any follow up on this? Anaconda folks, if you can provide updates, even to say there is no new info, it will be apppreciated.
Don >>
Good question!
<< <i>
<< <i>Do we have "THE TRUTH" yet or have the circled wagons repelled all the indians? >>
Come on now---I thought this all blew over already----Keep it quiet just a little bit longer and it will all be forgotten. Just the way it was planned for. >>
Hey-- what a smart freaking post......
Jerry
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Update anyone? >>
The wagons circled..You'll get no more information.
EDITED TO ADD:
Too bad for MANOFCOINS that he didn't have any waggons to circle...or did he?
perhaps the biggest surprise of this whole episode is that member Braddick gets an attaboy for his help, only to be exposed six months later as a co-conspirator/GMarguli stooge in the BlueIndian™ scandal!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The coin was artificially toned and then sold by gototoningcoins on eBay for $55.
2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either.
4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*.
6. He approached our table with the coin and was very excited. BlindedbyEgo from the boards was there during the transaction. With all of the known factors (well respected and honest dealer and ex-PCGS grader offering the coin and believing the color was authentic and had enough faith in it to buy it raw for a large chunk of change, it was bid on by at least two other dealers who also thought the color was real, and NGC Blessing it with an MS66 and a Star), we felt that since the coin had made it this far down the filtering process, it had to be real even though it had unusual toning.
7. After I had the coin imaged, Ron Sirna called me and told me that he thought the coin looked ED because of the deep toning on the central obverse. I agreed that the image made the toning look dark but in-hand it was more of a thick patination of powder blue. Again, this coin needs to be seen in-hand.
8. I did recieve other phone calls from those who specialize in toned coins and wanted to know how much the coin was. I am assuming that at the right number a sale would have been made but that's just speculation and there's been way too much of that around here lately so it doesn't matter.
9. I posted the coin on eBay with a very enthusiastic description which, in light of recent events, seems very laughable now. What I thought I knew about the coin, the fact that it was in an envelope for a very very long time, turned out to be very very false because the dealer we purchased it from was also taken by the story.
10. Pat Braddick made a thread with information and pictures from gototoning's ebay auction depiciting the very same Peace dollar. I commend Pat for bringing this situation to light. When I asked Pat about the information he told me that another dealer provided him with false information that "WE" were the original submitters to NGC and that this "dealer" has a personal problem with US. I would like to thank Pat for his openmindedness to this information because he knew the information was false and didn't post it even though it would have added some spice to the subject.
11. I immediately removed the eBay listing and the coin from our website as this information came to my attention so that I could investigate the matter thoroughly.
12. After making contact with both the dealer we purchased the coin from and NGC, an agreement was made to start the wheels of removing this coin from the market altogether. I asked the NGC representative whether the coin was submitted in a 2x2 envelope and they confirmed that it had been. I was instructed to send the coin to NGC for "appearance review" and I did so by shipping it overnight. Yesterday, I recieved a call from NGC about the coin and it was deemed that the coin is in-fact AT and should never have been holdered. An AT coin has been removed from the marketplace and everybody handled the situation in a very professional manner. NGC has stepped up to the plate to make sure everyone is satisfied with regards to buying this coin out of the market.
In summary, when we bought the coin, we thought the toning was unusual but original. It came with a story that explained the unusual toning. The story made sense to us, and it was brought to us in an NGC holder by an ex-PCGS grader who believed the toning was real. The coin fooled the exPCGS grader, it fooled the graders at NGC and it fooled us. We all believed the toning was real. When it came to light that it was AT, we took it off the market immediately and now the coin has been taken off the market permanently.
One final thought. It's a fact that artificially toned coins end up in PCGS and NGC holders. Some of them will seem to be obviously AT and others will look to all to be NT - the coin doctors have become that good. (By definition, you can't detect an AT coin that looks NT.) So regardless of whether you think the Peace dollar at hand appeared to be AT or NT or somewhere in between, I can't imagine any dealer claiming to have never mistakenly purchased an artificially toned coin. It happens to the best dealers. It happened to us. We've done the best job we could of fixing the problem. As Adrian stated earlier "we all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important."
Thanks to everyone who participated. Hopefully now things can roll on "Peace"-fully.
How ironic.
<< <i>4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*. >>
<< <i>I will certainly do some investigative work into this coin's background with the seller on eBay. >>
<< <i>Please be aware that we are trying to find out where the lies began. For all we know the bay area dealer was ALSO lied to with the same story. However, since the auction was such a short time ago, it will not be long before we go through the entire chain of ownership. >>
<< <i>The coin is currently en-route to NGC and they have confirmed that it WAS originally submitted in a 2x2 envelope by the dealer we purchased it from. I will disclose the details when this matter is resolved. >>
For simplicity I have included quotes from both this thread and
Are these two monster Toned Peace Dollars the Same Coin?
Poorguy- you stated that you would investigate the matter and get back to us. Please give us followup as you said you would do.
Thanks,
Don
To understand how rare color like this on a Peace dollar is, I will have to take a moment to explain. First of all, Peace dollars were not extensively stored in the treasury vaults for decades such as Morgan dollars were. Most of them did make it out into commerce and many stayed in mint condition at banks and some at the treasury. Naturally, the morgan dollars toned in the mint bags over decades and produced thousands upon thousands of impressively toned coins whereas the lowly Peace dollars didn't stay in one place long enough to attain such heavenly toning. The ones that did tone developed mostly dusty auburn or golden hues. However, there are some exceptions to this harsh reality, as is the case for this very Peace dollar. I have seen probably 5-6 Peace dollars with very exceptional toning and most of those that I have seen exhibit some sort of paper or envelope toning and none of them are as richly toned as this example. This type of color is different from the deep tones generated by bags in that it produces lighter pastel shades. I can only imagine how long this coin sat stored in the 2x2 envelope. I would guess that it sat in there for 80 years nearly undisturbed. It would explain alot since who would bother to open a 2x2 envelope with a common date Peace dollar marked on the front? Especially if it sat in some obscure collection for decades.
These words reveal as much as any picture possibly could.
<< <i>perhaps the biggest surprise of this whole episode is that member Braddick gets an attaboy for his help, only to be exposed six months later as a co-conspirator/GMarguli stooge in the BlueIndian™ scandal!!!! How ironic. >>
And how terribly disapointing you have no problem selling them either.
Edited to add: And another, just in case the first wasn't blue enough...
peacockcoins
**************
Does that include your derogatory comments about a forum member, for which you apologized and then use as a subject of a joke??
This is serious business, young man.
I am sure by now that you have been able to at least put together this coins chain of ownership.
Any information would be helpful.
No information will be revealing also, but not in your favor.
Don't be silly, Pat. Anaconda bought those for the same reason that they bought the Peace Dollar -- to take them off the market:
-- "If you call 'crawling back to NGC' getting the coin off the market, we did just that. Smartazz." --
Sure are a lot of them Blue proof IHCs up for sale these days. Are they from a newly discovered hoard?
<< <i>Sure are a lot of them Blue proof IHCs up for sale these days. Are they from a newly discovered hoard? >>
They're turning up everywhere.
And for some healthy premiums too.
peacockcoins
<< <i>Sure are a lot of them Blue proof IHCs up for sale these days. Are they from a newly discovered hoard? >>
Smoewhere in southern California, most likely.
<< <i>Sure are a lot of them Blue proof IHCs up for sale these days. Are they from a newly discovered hoard? >>
Or are they from nefarious sources previously or currently, and/or even newly-identified AT coins simply being dumped by their owners, or some combination thereof
But what does that have to do with the AT Peace dollar?
Anyone remember the title of that tread so we can TTT it for him so maybe he "remembers" something...?
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
Russ, NCNE
Read the first reply to ManofCoins “apology”, within seconds of its posting. Read his words carefully.
Welcome to
<< <i>Not as I understand it. I believe that NGC took the coin off the market and presumably made Anaconda whole. >>
That was a question I was just about to ask. Does "taken off the market" mean NGC bought it per their grade guarantee, the coin was cracked out and dipped or did Adrian stick it in the back of his sock drawer?
one thought that comes back to me over and over again about this whole AT topic is the number of coins being removed from the marketplace. can anyone tell me if all the colored coins being shopped around are permanently damaged or can they be conserved or somehow returned to their previous state of preservation?? i assume that a coin that's been heated to alter the color is damaged beyond repair, but what about chemically altered coins?? are these MS70 Blue IHC's that color forever?? looking at one individual alone, Gototoning, the number of coins being lost may be staggering. with the limited number of IHC Proofs which exist as problem free and collectible coins, can we afford to lose any to this growing scandal??
<< <i>I got permission from the dealer that we bought the coin after asking him several times for information about who he purchased it from. He told me he was a small local dealer and couldn't remember the name and didn't know where the invoice was. Since I couldn't get anything else from this individual about who he got it from, all I can do it post (and with his permission) who we got it from. We purchased the coin from Ken Park. If you want to pursue the truth further than the facts I provided, be my guest. The coin was taken off the market as soon as it was determined to be AT. Life rolls on. There, happy? >>
Poorguy stated that he would investigate the issue, follow the chain of ownership, and get back to us. That was February. Despite several polite requests over the interim, no information was forthcoming until your post above.
<< <i>"There, happy" >>
does not seem appropriate given those circumstances. If you have the stomach, you might reread my previous posts in this thread. I was polite, and I praised the manner in which Brandon dealt with the issue.
A representative of your firm stated that the dealer who bought the coin at LB (whom we now know to be Ken Park) had purchased it from "a bay area dealer" (poorguy's words) who sold it to Mr. Park, after "enhancing its appearance to make it appear more natural"(again, poorguy's words) and lying about it's provenance. We're talking about an AT MS66 "star" which sold raw for $55 on ebay (seller the infamous gototoningcoins) a very short time before your firm listed it for sale for and your associate posted it here with the descriptor
<< <i>"Quite Possibly the Finest Toned Peace Dollar in Existence!" >>
and the coin was selling for $14,000.
Brandon wrote
<< <i>"Purchased at Long Beach from a dealer who had just purchased it raw at the show in an old 2x2 envelope. " >>
, then
<< <i>"2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either. ' >>
There are only so many "bay area dealers". It strains credibilty to believe that anyone, much less a former PCGS grader, looking at a raw Peace dollar which is "possibly the finest in existence", and shortly therafter knowing that the coin had been altered, and sold to Mr Park under false pretense, wouldn't know more details. I don't know Ken Park, but if someone here does, I'd appreciate more information from him. I live in the Bay area, and if a former PCGS grader can be fooled by a coin, I certainly can.
We should not accept deliberate fraud (which is what "enhancing a coins appearance to make it appear more natural" and lying about a coin's provenance in order to enhance its value involves, IMO) here.
Don
Did he happen to be about 80 years old?
<< <i>Poorguy stated that he would investigate the issue, follow the chain of ownership, and get back to us. That was February. Despite several polite requests over the interim, no information was forthcoming until your post above.
<< "There, happy" >>
does not seem appropriate given those circumstances. If you have the stomach, you might reread my previous posts in this thread. I was polite, and I praised the manner in which Brandon dealt with the issue. >>
As much as I would have liked too, I would loved to have dropped EVERYTHING and flew out to California and began a manhunt for this guy. I could have called the FBI but figured they didn't give a hoot. I called Ken twice to get information on the guy he bought it from. He didn't have the invoice and couldn't remember the guy's name he bought it from. Did you expect me to pull out the bay area phonebook and just start cold-calling coin dealers there? Any one of you who are complaining could have pulled out a phonebook and started calling bay-area dealers as you had (with the information I posted in the first post) exactly as much info as I had.
What more could I do to make everyone happy short of re-arranging the priorities in my life and devoting all of my time an energy to determining who the guy was who sold Ken this coin?
Don"
Without commenting onthis thread in ANY way - of course,