<< <i>perhaps the biggest surprise of this whole episode is that member Braddick gets an attaboy for his help, only to be exposed six months later as a co-conspirator/GMarguli stooge in the BlueIndian™ scandal!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
Keets I don't recall anything about Braddick being involved with this. Can you link the thread where this was discussed?
It seems like the more I hear about the coin biz, the more it appears slimy and corrupt......
that's because it is slimy and corrupt. i doubt it'll ever happen and i dread the thought, but Government regulation in some form would be good for us all. what would be bad is the inevitable crap that would come with regulation. almost like trading one evil for another.
here's my page two replied, just in case someone is readinbg only the last page and missed it...................oh yeah, it's for stman, too!!
with everything that's gone on, it hasn't been satisfactorily handled, IMHO, not yet a done deal. perhaps it's because me and goose are both from Ohio or something, but it'll never stop until you cowards start naming the names of everyone involved in scams like this, let the chips fall where they may and allow collectors to decide who's beyond reproach and who the good dealers are. when crap like this takes place and the foxes(read: dealers) guard the henhouse and clean up the mess, it sickens me. you all share information in your secretive way and cover for each other. not good, not good at all.
perhaps if collectors stopped doing business with dealers who cover for other dealers who pull crap like this, the crap would stop. so long as the collecting community doesn't really know who the "good guys" are without the foxes(read: dealers) making the list, we'll continue to be preyed upon as they laugh all the way to the bank.
<< <i> It seems like the more I hear about the coin biz, the more it appears slimy and corrupt......
that's because it is slimy and corrupt. >>
WOW, who would of thunk it? HEH HEH Doesn't sound like Happy Talk Keets.
And all I can say from your last quote ;
<< <i>here's my page two replied, just in case someone is readinbg only the last page and missed it...................oh yeah, it's for stman, too!! >>
is.......
:
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
To solve all this nonsense about what's AT and NT, the TPGS just need to stop grading these neon colored trinkets altogether! Or collectors need to build some kind catagory base of what's acceptable in toning patterns and colors. Go back 30 years and list what was acceptable then and eliminate any new stuff that has appeared on the market in those last few years. Let the collectors decide, through years of experience, on what's acceptable. And leave what's questionable to whomever wants to dabble in it but the TPGS need to back off (drop their names) and get out of this very risky area of coins.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Poorguy stated that he would investigate the issue, follow the chain of ownership, and get back to us. That was February. Despite several polite requests over the interim, no information was forthcoming until your post above.
<< "There, happy" >>
does not seem appropriate given those circumstances. If you have the stomach, you might reread my previous posts in this thread. I was polite, and I praised the manner in which Brandon dealt with the issue. >>
As much as I would have liked too, I would loved to have dropped EVERYTHING and flew out to California and began a manhunt for this guy. I could have called the FBI but figured they didn't give a hoot. I called Ken twice to get information on the guy he bought it from. He didn't have the invoice and couldn't remember the guy's name he bought it from. Did you expect me to pull out the bay area phonebook and just start cold-calling coin dealers there? Any one of you who are complaining could have pulled out a phonebook and started calling bay-area dealers as you had (with the information I posted in the first post) exactly as much info as I had.
What more could I do to make everyone happy short of re-arranging the priorities in my life and devoting all of my time an energy to determining who the guy was who sold Ken this coin? >>
I can't speak for everyone, but on more than one previous occasion, I requested an update. Now I've gotten one. That's all I requested, and as far as you specifically are concerned, I'm satisfied. I'm not satified with the story prior to you, but that is not your responsibility. Thanks. Don
"The events surrounding this coin are interesting to say the least. After some digging, calls back and fourth between the dealer we purchased it from and from NGC and after a few emails with a certain seller on eBay, several facts were made clear and we took the appropriate actions to remove this coin from the market.
1. The coin was artificially toned and then sold by gototoningcoins on eBay for $55.
2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either.
4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*.
6. He approached our table with the coin and was very excited. BlindedbyEgo from the boards was there during the transaction. With all of the known factors (well respected and honest dealer and ex-PCGS grader offering the coin and believing the color was authentic and had enough faith in it to buy it raw for a large chunk of change, it was bid on by at least two other dealers who also thought the color was real, and NGC Blessing it with an MS66 and a Star), we felt that since the coin had made it this far down the filtering process, it had to be real even though it had unusual toning.
7. After I had the coin imaged, Ron Sirna called me and told me that he thought the coin looked ED because of the deep toning on the central obverse. I agreed that the image made the toning look dark but in-hand it was more of a thick patination of powder blue. Again, this coin needs to be seen in-hand.
8. I did recieve other phone calls from those who specialize in toned coins and wanted to know how much the coin was. I am assuming that at the right number a sale would have been made but that's just speculation and there's been way too much of that around here lately so it doesn't matter.
9. I posted the coin on eBay with a very enthusiastic description which, in light of recent events, seems very laughable now. What I thought I knew about the coin, the fact that it was in an envelope for a very very long time, turned out to be very very false because the dealer we purchased it from was also taken by the story.
10. Pat Braddick made a thread with information and pictures from gototoning's ebay auction depiciting the very same Peace dollar. I commend Pat for bringing this situation to light. When I asked Pat about the information he told me that another dealer provided him with false information that "WE" were the original submitters to NGC and that this "dealer" has a personal problem with US. I would like to thank Pat for his openmindedness to this information because he knew the information was false and didn't post it even though it would have added some spice to the subject.
11. I immediately removed the eBay listing and the coin from our website as this information came to my attention so that I could investigate the matter thoroughly.
12. After making contact with both the dealer we purchased the coin from and NGC, an agreement was made to start the wheels of removing this coin from the market altogether. I asked the NGC representative whether the coin was submitted in a 2x2 envelope and they confirmed that it had been. I was instructed to send the coin to NGC for "appearance review" and I did so by shipping it overnight. Yesterday, I recieved a call from NGC about the coin and it was deemed that the coin is in-fact AT and should never have been holdered. An AT coin has been removed from the marketplace and everybody handled the situation in a very professional manner. NGC has stepped up to the plate to make sure everyone is satisfied with regards to buying this coin out of the market.
In summary, when we bought the coin, we thought the toning was unusual but original. It came with a story that explained the unusual toning. The story made sense to us, and it was brought to us in an NGC holder by an ex-PCGS grader who believed the toning was real. The coin fooled the exPCGS grader, it fooled the graders at NGC and it fooled us. We all believed the toning was real. When it came to light that it was AT, we took it off the market immediately and now the coin has been taken off the market permanently.
One final thought. It's a fact that artificially toned coins end up in PCGS and NGC holders. Some of them will seem to be obviously AT and others will look to all to be NT - the coin doctors have become that good. (By definition, you can't detect an AT coin that looks NT.) So regardless of whether you think the Peace dollar at hand appeared to be AT or NT or somewhere in between, I can't imagine any dealer claiming to have never mistakenly purchased an artificially toned coin. It happens to the best dealers. It happened to us. We've done the best job we could of fixing the problem. As Adrian stated earlier "we all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important."
Thanks to everyone who participated. Hopefully now things can roll on "Peace"-fully.
I commend Mr. Kelly for this action; also, this should certainly show that even "experts" cannot always tell whether a coin has been "doctored". So....I NEVER have and NEVER will pay a premium for a toned coin.
I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
Hey Snake guy--- First off I think you should cut out the pompous attitude, secondly cut the crap. That blue Indian dealer was a very respected member till he got caught---then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he went on an extended vacation. MOC was a very respected member till he got caught- then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he confessed (much more admirable than the blue Indian dude). Now you just go right ahead and keep that attitude of yours going---- You know- you are starting to look more and more involved.
<< <i>Hey Snake guy--- First off I think you should cut out the pompous attitude, secondly cut the crap. That blue Indian dealer was a very respected member till he got caught---then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he went on an extended vacation. MOC was a very respected member till he got caught- then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he confessed (much more admirable than the blue Indian dude). Now you just go right ahead and keep that attitude of yours going---- You know- you are starting to look more and more involved. >>
Do you have a link to the "BLUE INDIAN DEALER" thread, Please?
Was it ever mentioned if they were made whole on the coin by NGC? I understand they paid a lot for it. If they were made whole.... if I bought something like this and paid way over a white counterpart, would I be made whole? How bout Keets, would he be made whole given the same situation? Just curious.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>here's the discovery thread....................
It seems like the more I hear about the coin biz, the more it appears slimy and corrupt......
that's because it is slimy and corrupt. i doubt it'll ever happen and i dread the thought, but Government regulation in some form would be good for us all. what would be bad is the inevitable crap that would come with regulation. almost like trading one evil for another. >>
Keets, no I meant the blue indian cent stuff with Greg Margulies.
At one time, Brandon claimed to have several Compact Discs of images that he took of all the coins that passed thru...Adrian at one time was looking for Brandon and the CD's but I don't think that ever happened.
Memories ... wonder where Adrian is?
living in Costa Rica with some young women the last I heard. apparently at some point after being involved in Numismatic Scandal it is a tradition that some sabbatical be taken. his is just longer than most.
as for a picture, I have one saved for posterity and will post it when I find it.
That would have been the most toned Peace dollar on the planet.
IIRRC these were the juiced images, I think Brandon's were more realistic and more subdued, but I couldbe wrong, lots has happened since this topic occurred.
@WoodenJefferson said:
That would have been the most toned Peace dollar on the planet.
IIRRC these were the juiced images, I think Brandon's were more realistic and more subdued, but I couldbe wrong, lots has happened since this topic occurred.
Comments
<< <i>perhaps the biggest surprise of this whole episode is that member Braddick gets an attaboy for his help, only to be exposed six months later as a co-conspirator/GMarguli stooge in the BlueIndian™ scandal!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
Keets I don't recall anything about Braddick being involved with this. Can you link the thread where this was discussed?
It seems like the more I hear about the coin biz, the more it appears slimy and corrupt......
that's because it is slimy and corrupt. i doubt it'll ever happen and i dread the thought, but Government regulation in some form would be good for us all. what would be bad is the inevitable crap that would come with regulation. almost like trading one evil for another.
Dealers wanting to go after other dealers for telling bad stories. Hahaha
with everything that's gone on, it hasn't been satisfactorily handled, IMHO, not yet a done deal. perhaps it's because me and goose are both from Ohio or something, but it'll never stop until you cowards start naming the names of everyone involved in scams like this, let the chips fall where they may and allow collectors to decide who's beyond reproach and who the good dealers are. when crap like this takes place and the foxes(read: dealers) guard the henhouse and clean up the mess, it sickens me. you all share information in your secretive way and cover for each other. not good, not good at all.
perhaps if collectors stopped doing business with dealers who cover for other dealers who pull crap like this, the crap would stop. so long as the collecting community doesn't really know who the "good guys" are without the foxes(read: dealers) making the list, we'll continue to be preyed upon as they laugh all the way to the bank.
<< <i>
It seems like the more I hear about the coin biz, the more it appears slimy and corrupt......
that's because it is slimy and corrupt. >>
WOW, who would of thunk it? HEH HEH Doesn't sound like Happy Talk Keets.
And all I can say from your last quote ;
<< <i>here's my page two replied, just in case someone is readinbg only the last page and missed it...................oh yeah, it's for stman, too!! >>
is.......
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Poorguy stated that he would investigate the issue, follow the chain of ownership, and get back to us. That was February. Despite several polite requests over the interim, no information was forthcoming until your post above.
<< "There, happy" >>
does not seem appropriate given those circumstances. If you have the stomach, you might reread my previous posts in this thread. I was polite, and I praised the manner in which Brandon dealt with the issue. >>
As much as I would have liked too, I would loved to have dropped EVERYTHING and flew out to California and began a manhunt for this guy. I could have called the FBI but figured they didn't give a hoot. I called Ken twice to get information on the guy he bought it from. He didn't have the invoice and couldn't remember the guy's name he bought it from. Did you expect me to pull out the bay area phonebook and just start cold-calling coin dealers there? Any one of you who are complaining could have pulled out a phonebook and started calling bay-area dealers as you had (with the information I posted in the first post) exactly as much info as I had.
What more could I do to make everyone happy short of re-arranging the priorities in my life and devoting all of my time an energy to determining who the guy was who sold Ken this coin? >>
I can't speak for everyone, but on more than one previous occasion, I requested an update. Now I've gotten one. That's all I requested, and as far as you specifically are concerned, I'm satisfied. I'm not satified with the story prior to you, but that is not your responsibility.
Thanks.
Don
wondercoin, duffman,PiecesOfMe, Smittys, LogPotato, Bumanchu, Tydye, segoja, Harry779, FullCameo, Twosidestoeverycoin, jmdm1194, rkfish, drewsef, Chrischampeo, Kaelasdad, Ahrensdad, Dabigkahuna, Barbwire, sebrown, mkman123, Gerard
<< <i>Where is the original link to this post? I would like to see a picture of the coin. Raw and or in holder. Thank you >>
scroll back a page for the pic in holder.
The other threads are here
1. The coin was artificially toned and then sold by gototoningcoins on eBay for $55.
2. The coin was then further "enhanced" to appear more natural. You would need to see the coin in-hand to understand this.
3. A very well respected dealer who is an ex-PCGS grader approached us with this coin. I am withholding his name because nobody else needs to have egg on their face because of this. No, he doesn't post to this message board either.
4. He told us how he came to aquire the coin from a small Bay Area dealer at the Long Beach show. It was in this dealer's case in a 2x2 envelope and that dealer basically had 2 or 3 others interested in the coin. All of them put in bids for the coin and it was sold to the dealer we ultimately purchased it from. We were informed that the coin was exceedingly expensive for a raw Peace dollar.
5. He took the coin, still in the 2x2 envelope to the NGC table and submitted it in the 2x2 envelope (I've confirmed this with a representative from NGC) with several other coins for walkthrough. As you know, NGC gave the coin an MS66*.
6. He approached our table with the coin and was very excited. BlindedbyEgo from the boards was there during the transaction. With all of the known factors (well respected and honest dealer and ex-PCGS grader offering the coin and believing the color was authentic and had enough faith in it to buy it raw for a large chunk of change, it was bid on by at least two other dealers who also thought the color was real, and NGC Blessing it with an MS66 and a Star), we felt that since the coin had made it this far down the filtering process, it had to be real even though it had unusual toning.
7. After I had the coin imaged, Ron Sirna called me and told me that he thought the coin looked ED because of the deep toning on the central obverse. I agreed that the image made the toning look dark but in-hand it was more of a thick patination of powder blue. Again, this coin needs to be seen in-hand.
8. I did recieve other phone calls from those who specialize in toned coins and wanted to know how much the coin was. I am assuming that at the right number a sale would have been made but that's just speculation and there's been way too much of that around here lately so it doesn't matter.
9. I posted the coin on eBay with a very enthusiastic description which, in light of recent events, seems very laughable now. What I thought I knew about the coin, the fact that it was in an envelope for a very very long time, turned out to be very very false because the dealer we purchased it from was also taken by the story.
10. Pat Braddick made a thread with information and pictures from gototoning's ebay auction depiciting the very same Peace dollar. I commend Pat for bringing this situation to light. When I asked Pat about the information he told me that another dealer provided him with false information that "WE" were the original submitters to NGC and that this "dealer" has a personal problem with US. I would like to thank Pat for his openmindedness to this information because he knew the information was false and didn't post it even though it would have added some spice to the subject.
11. I immediately removed the eBay listing and the coin from our website as this information came to my attention so that I could investigate the matter thoroughly.
12. After making contact with both the dealer we purchased the coin from and NGC, an agreement was made to start the wheels of removing this coin from the market altogether. I asked the NGC representative whether the coin was submitted in a 2x2 envelope and they confirmed that it had been. I was instructed to send the coin to NGC for "appearance review" and I did so by shipping it overnight. Yesterday, I recieved a call from NGC about the coin and it was deemed that the coin is in-fact AT and should never have been holdered. An AT coin has been removed from the marketplace and everybody handled the situation in a very professional manner. NGC has stepped up to the plate to make sure everyone is satisfied with regards to buying this coin out of the market.
In summary, when we bought the coin, we thought the toning was unusual but original. It came with a story that explained the unusual toning. The story made sense to us, and it was brought to us in an NGC holder by an ex-PCGS grader who believed the toning was real. The coin fooled the exPCGS grader, it fooled the graders at NGC and it fooled us. We all believed the toning was real. When it came to light that it was AT, we took it off the market immediately and now the coin has been taken off the market permanently.
One final thought. It's a fact that artificially toned coins end up in PCGS and NGC holders. Some of them will seem to be obviously AT and others will look to all to be NT - the coin doctors have become that good. (By definition, you can't detect an AT coin that looks NT.) So regardless of whether you think the Peace dollar at hand appeared to be AT or NT or somewhere in between, I can't imagine any dealer claiming to have never mistakenly purchased an artificially toned coin. It happens to the best dealers. It happened to us. We've done the best job we could of fixing the problem. As Adrian stated earlier "we all make mistakes - we all fall down. It's how we get up that's important."
Thanks to everyone who participated. Hopefully now things can roll on "Peace"-fully.
-------------------------
Brandon Kelley - Anaconda Rare Coins - 1-800-440-8334"
I commend Mr. Kelly for this action; also, this should certainly show that even "experts" cannot always tell whether a coin has been "doctored". So....I NEVER have and NEVER will pay a premium for a toned coin.
First off I think you should cut out the pompous attitude, secondly cut the crap.
That blue Indian dealer was a very respected member till he got caught---then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he went on an extended vacation.
MOC was a very respected member till he got caught- then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he confessed (much more admirable than the blue Indian dude).
Now you just go right ahead and keep that attitude of yours going---- You know- you are starting to look more and more involved.
<< <i>Hey Snake guy---
First off I think you should cut out the pompous attitude, secondly cut the crap.
That blue Indian dealer was a very respected member till he got caught---then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he went on an extended vacation.
MOC was a very respected member till he got caught- then after he realized his "attitude" didn't work- he confessed (much more admirable than the blue Indian dude).
Now you just go right ahead and keep that attitude of yours going---- You know- you are starting to look more and more involved. >>
Do you have a link to the "BLUE INDIAN DEALER" thread, Please?
<< <i>here's the discovery thread....................
It seems like the more I hear about the coin biz, the more it appears slimy and corrupt......
that's because it is slimy and corrupt. i doubt it'll ever happen and i dread the thought, but Government regulation in some form would be good for us all. what would be bad is the inevitable crap that would come with regulation. almost like trading one evil for another. >>
Keets, no I meant the blue indian cent stuff with Greg Margulies.
Jerry
<< <i>Forget it folks. Whatever you are looking for here is not looking like it is going to happen.
Jerry >>
Exactly what are you looking for?
I's already be whole, some would say a'whole, but dats OK, I's happy and singin'!!
Someone should give an IQ test to forum members. If you break 100, you get to post, otherwise, you can only lurk.
<< <i>
<< <i>Forget it folks. Whatever you are looking for here is not looking like it is going to happen.
Jerry >>
Exactly what are you looking for? >>
What page in this thread that the conclusion is on.
Jerry
<< <i>Now you just go right ahead and keep that attitude of yours going---- You know- you are starting to look more and more involved.
Someone should give an IQ test to forum members. If you break 100, you get to post, otherwise, you can only lurk. >>
Ouch- that was really mean and vicious.
I am surprised at you.
Then its not so far a fall off ones pedestal.
Camelot
Heh.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
12 YEAR OLD THREAD ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Memories ... wonder where Adrian is?
What's old is new again.....
Am I wrong but is this all over $55.00 ?
I remember this well. Also know who the dealer in #3 is.
$55.00 that eventually jumped to $14K
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I don't know, I don't think I want to know.
Does anybody still have pictures of the coin?
Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is September 5-7, 2024 at the Eisenhower Hotel in Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
At one time, Brandon claimed to have several Compact Discs of images that he took of all the coins that passed thru...Adrian at one time was looking for Brandon and the CD's but I don't think that ever happened.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Memories ... wonder where Adrian is?
living in Costa Rica with some young women the last I heard. apparently at some point after being involved in Numismatic Scandal it is a tradition that some sabbatical be taken. his is just longer than most.
as for a picture, I have one saved for posterity and will post it when I find it.
Adrian is alive and well and practicing law in Texas. I chat with him occasionally. Cheers, RickO
so, the sabbatical has ended.
That would have been the most toned Peace dollar on the planet.
IIRRC these were the juiced images, I think Brandon's were more realistic and more subdued, but I couldbe wrong, lots has happened since this topic occurred.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
13 year old thread now.
Are Brandon / @poorguy's photos still available?
Then came a dip, a sticker , and a $55 coin, in the end. And we lost a few good men, along the route.
That's really too bad, especially since the TPG is still going strong.
Caveat Emptor to anyone who thought that coin was anything near MA or NT.
Adrian is on facebook. We message occasionally.
In 2019, that would be a considered a novice level attempt at AT. The game surely continues..........