I think we should be more concerned that Keets has never seen "A Few Good Men".
I agree completely and now understand why I was unceremoniously ejected from the Keets Numismatic Guild as a result. Someone please send Keets a copy of that movie!
This doctoring issue is so much more harmful to the hobby than the telemarketers and all those who screw the widows. Doctoring has the potential to bring down the entire hobby.
I wish we could find a word other than "doctoring" to use in this context. While the medical business is far from free of ethical and moral issues, I think the coin biz is giving us a bad name.
I generally agree with everything that Coinguy says, but in this case I'm going to have to take Keets' and RYK's perspective...anything short of full disclosure sure seems to me to be like coin dealers protecting their own.
I can, I believe, understand why Anaconda is protecting their source, but in this case, I believe the hobby would be better served by full disclosure...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I have had some kudos for my parody of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men, one of my favorite Jack roles. For those who do not remember the original script, here it is:
A Few Good Men written by Aaron Sorkin
Jessep (Jack Nicholson): You want answers? Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I want the truth! Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
I did it very quickly, and if I had to do it over again, I would have made some changes. I am tempted to go back and tweak it, but then some people will be all over me for editing my post.
Some collector almost ended up with a $55 coin in thier retirement fund and $12000 less. You can't see a scam?? It almost worked.
Now it looks like NGC got scammed because they will need to make Anaconda whole while someone is still up many thousands. I would not rush to to say that the wagons are circling for the safety of the dealer community but unless there is a name or two disclosed at some point as well as a punitive action announced, I'd say that all parties became more interested in making sure this isn't on the front page of Coin World and possibly on the mind of the next newbie with a fat checkbook who might decide not to take any chances.
Of course things take time and everyones afraid of being sued or blackballed from the dealers "inner circle" but it shouldn't take more than a few days to sort out the details here and I can't see anyone's reluctance to name the person they bought from, there's no crime in that unless there was a conspiracy involved.
Anything less than full disclosure of the chain of purchase here is a "cover up." We want the truth and we can handle the truth. Only the guilty should be afraid of it.
Maybe all these reputable dealers are crayfishing the coin back to where it came from. If i sold someone a high dollar coin that i just had certified and it was found out to be at i would refund the money and start looking for the dealer with the story to get my refund.
Looks like someone will make a bunch on this coin even though it has been removed from the market.
Of course, and the better they get the more there is concern that the who issue could blow up. There is too much profit made on common coins with toning selling at 20-50X grade level for the dealer community to see it end. Then what happens when all those with these high priced items tucked away, certified or not , start to question if they have AT or NT. Does anyone think NGC (or PCGS) want this story spread and names named?? If this spreads big time through the collector community how many toners will be sent back for review??Do the dealers with dozens of past sales want thier clients to question thier coins? Insecure buyers wanting thier money back.
There will be a lot of peer pressure to hush this one up. Anaconda did what anyone would do, he went to NGC for a refund. He had little choice. Now let's see if he or NGC is willing to really "do the right thing."
Some collector almost ended up with a $55 coin in thier retirement fund and $12000 less. You can't see a scam?? It almost worked.
Now it looks like NGC got scammed because they will need to make Anaconda whole while someone is still up many thousands. I would not rush to to say that the wagons are circling for the safety of the dealer community but unless there is a name or two disclosed at some point as well as a punitive action announced, I'd say that all parties became more interested in making sure this isn't on the front page of Coin World and possibly on the mind of the next newbie with a fat checkbook who might decide not to take any chances.
Of course things take time and everyones afraid of being sued or blackballed from the dealers "inner circle" but it shouldn't take more than a few days to sort out the details here and I can't see anyone's reluctance to name the person they bought from, there's no crime in that unless there was a conspiracy involved.
Anything less than full disclosure of the chain of purchase here is a "cover up." We want the truth and we can handle the truth. Only the guilty should be afraid of it. >>
No, there isn't any scam here. The only "scam" is a 55.00 coin which is magically worth 12000.00 simply because it has pretty colors which occurred over time rather than all at once. I am not saying that the premium is not valid based on eye appeal...only that if the experts cannot tell whether the colors occurred "naturally" or not then how the colors got there is irrelevant. The eye appeal is the same. One either thinks the coin is attractive and therefore worth the premium or he doesn't.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
I have yet to see any comment that NGC is "making Anaconda whole." No price guide values the asterisk, so we are talking the value of a roughly $700 coin. If that is where NGC comes out, and argubaly it is, then presumably Anaconda isn't made whole.
If on the other hand NGC makes Anaconda whole, how did they arrive at their figure? If I grossly overpay for a coin that NGC mistakenly/erronesouly slabs, I suspect the value of the guaranty ends at the book value for the coin, and the fact that I overpaid for the grade is my problem.
<< <i>The coin was never really worth 12 or 14,000 dollars. That was just a magic number placed on it by Anaconda. Would someone had paid that? I hope not. >>
<< <i>The coin was never really worth 12 or 14,000 dollars. That was just a magic number placed on it by Anaconda. Would someone had paid that? I hope not. >>
If they had, they would now own it >>
That would seem to be the whole truth .............................
They had no choice but to yank it and try to do some damage control and PR work. Are we that easily impressed around here???
I believe that very few among us, if put in the precise position/predicament that Brandon and Adrian were in, would have been willing and/or able to handle it with the class and dignity that they did.
For me, that doesn't speak very highly of the dealer community. But I guess y'all know better than I how the average dealer would have responsed. Let the back-slapping continue......
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>Put yourself in their position for a moment, in the middle of a big fishbowl, with the bright, harsh light of the forum shining down on you, criticizing, accusing, questioning, blaming, insisting, second-guessing your actions, decisions, motives, etc. >>
Good ol' Coinguy still trying, and trying. Sorry Sir, they put themselves in that fishbowl at the very beginning by saying the worlds finest, and hyping the thing to the max. Let alone saying they knew EXACTLY how it toned etc. etc. So now the back slapping? And wanting to pass blame on "stories." This is the kicker as far as I'm concerned. I sure wish I could have some money everytime I heard a dealer not telling the truth with a story. Ooopps, I see the problem........ they did it among themselves. They broke the code? Haha
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>This is yet another reason why people also should not buy from images. You DO need to see a coin to confirm if the color is real.
Why does it always make such a difference knowing who was behind it? If you haven't been dealing w/that ex PCGS grader until now, then common sense says you'll scrutinize anyone who is ex PCGS. Why does the name matter?
I do believe NGC will buy back the coin-I've seen them spend $200,000.00 on a coin. The value definately would be an issue. I highly doubt there is ANY LEGITMATE SECONDARY MARKET that would place that coin anywhere near five figures.
Such a train wreck! >>
I thought they bought the coin at Long Beach and the coin was in hand. Or is this another peace dollar Laura is speaking of?
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
It wouldn't be pleasant or easy, and I think most others would have been defensive, less tolerant of the feedback and not nearly such good sports.
I never thought it would be easy- but I still don't see any other option they had. If they had acted defensive, it just would have made them look that much worse. And I do think that Stman has a point- if you're going to make a big living on selling questionable toners for FIVE figures, then I think it comes with the territory that you're going to get some serious scrutiny... But it seems that their reputation is still very well intact, so perhaps all turns out pretty well anyway.....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Maybe, just maybe, the names that are being so valiantly protected would really surprise a lot of us. Could it be possible that the "poor innocent parties" involved may be shockingly well known? I was always told that sunlight is the best antiseptic, yet in this thread I am being told (by those who know sooo much more than little old me) not to worry because the guilty (???) parties involved will look into this themselves and take care of things.
Hey Al --- you get a major bump in my regard for you for standing on ethics and not going along with the tail wagging the dog story.
<<This coin held the potential to screw a collector out of 12K.>>
That would be Anaconda Rare Coins.
I agree with Keets - and it all smells fishy, but what are ya gonna do? Everybody cheats, and everybody lies. I think Anaconda's prices are frightening, but he does have a 100% positive feedback.
A lawyer friend of mine (still keep him at arms length) once told me, "It doesn't matter if the guy is guilty or innocent - what matters is which lawyer tells the better story!!!".
It's all about who can screw the next guy and escape with the profit. Capitalism, at its finest.
Ever read those damn auction catalogs, and all the GREAT STORIES AND HISTORIES??? Please. Fun to read I guess. Time for me to go back and read that great true-story book by Frey. Oprah said it is a MUST!!! All his troubles, but I feel for him - He's from (sob) Michigan and he had (sob) all those drug problems....
Sorry, they're laughing at US!!! They didn't do a thing wrong in this line of transaction fiasco. Some dealer made up the 2 X 2 envelope story. I want to meet him.
Some coins of color inside reputable tpg slabs are just downright ridiculous. For coins not even a year old to exhibit some of the colors I've seen.... What's the use!?. Anyone remember I N T E G R I T Y ?.....
<< <i>Why does it always make such a difference knowing who was behind it? If you haven't been dealing w/that ex PCGS grader until now, then common sense says you'll scrutinize anyone who is ex PCGS. Why does the name matter? >>
Because I like to feel kicked in the groin when I find out that these highly respected paragons of virtue in the business may at times be no better that those WANNABEES that are so loathed here. I may not deal with the person now, but knowing the "rest of the story" may affect how I might or might not deal with him in the future. Its sorta like finding out that the local judge who is so tough on all the druggies is one of the biggest pushers in the area.
I do find it puzzling that the individuals (TPG's and Dealers) who potentially can have their livelihood impacted by deteriorating consumer confidence as a result of pervasive doctoring are the ones who are most apathetic to do anything serious about cleaning it up. Collectors are sending a message loud and clear. Seems like no one really gives a crap. Lets see what the future holds. No business model survives without integrity.
<< <i>Is this thread a joke? Hell, I've been away for a week and I miss all the stupidity!
I highly doubt that an ex PCGS grader doesn't know AT. Coins do turn after grading, but from the little I can gather, this coin was clear AT as can be. I also highly doubt the dealers story.
Issues like this separate the men from the boys. Like I've said before, children should not play with matches. And ANY colored coins are definately matches. >>
<< <i>I do find it puzzling that the individuals (TPG's and Dealers) who potentially can have their livelihood impacted by deteriorating consumer confidence as a result of pervasive doctoring are the ones who are most apathetic to do anything serious about cleaning it up. Collectors are sending a message loud and clear. Seems like no one really gives a crap. Lets see what the future holds. No business model survives without integrity. >>
ar*ro*gance (noun)
CONTEMPTUOUS PRIDE
a strong feeling of proud self-importance that is expressed by treating other people with contempt or disregard
I disrespectfully agree with your point, no--I respectfully disagree, no--actually I respectfully agree when you put it in that light--except that in my world, the severity of the crime for medicare fraud and insurance scams is much greater than that for coin doctoring. In fact, so far as I know, doctoring a coin is not a crime (but I may be wrong on this).
I've largely stayed out of posting on this subject because I have not seen the coin in-hand and because it seems that so much information has not yet been released. Therefore, please take into account that I have not seen the coin in-hand when I write something about its appearance. However, I have to agree with those who request that the identities of other parties who owned this coin might be important to them.
In my opinion, from the pair of images I have seen of this coin, the piece was thoroughly AT and hardly convincing. In a case such as this I believe that dealer trust has very little to do with it and that dealer greed is the motivating force. We've all heard stories about coins; some of them true and some completely fabricated. In my experience in hunting down and studying toned coins, this coin looks little, if anything, like a coin that was stored in a paper envelope for a significant period of time. The ability of the coin to "fool" so many full-time dealers and graders can be interpreted that these people were either willing to look the other way in deference to the potential profit that the coin might generate or that they truly don't know much about that which they sell. I believe there is a healthy dose of both in this case, regardless of how respected certain dealers may be on the bourse or the PCGS forum, and remember that "respected" does not entirely equate to "knowledgeable".
If this is the perception of an appreciable minority of folks, and I think that it very well might be, then it becomes germane to know the identity of those who owned this coin and pushed it as a legitimate rarity. After all, this information might allow me to avoid these dealers when I want to deal with superbly toned, original coinage. The extension of that avoidance may be that I am given the tools to protect my wealth from being buried in a bad coin. I believe it was Legend who once wrote that amateur dealers could bury their clients in a coin inadvertantly while professional dealers could bury their client in a coin deliberately. I don't want to be that client in either instance and knowing this chain of ownership may allow me to achieve that goal in the future.
The fact that the coin was graded by NGC is highly disturbing and I can only hope that the internal workings of NGC are analyzed and the paradigm changed so that carelessness such as this is not repeated. It may also be hoped that those who were responsible for the NGC certification of the coin are taken to task and learn something from the experience in order to make NGC, and PCGS by extension, stronger.
I don't think my post will get much play due to its late nature and perhaps limited scope, and I can imagine that honest, thoughtful and responsible folk might disagree with my reasoning but I think it important that the ideas be put out there so that those who might not think this way can read it.
<< <i>I've largely stayed out of posting on this subject because I have not seen the coin in-hand and because it seems that so much information has not yet been released. Therefore, please take into account that I have not seen the coin in-hand when I write something about its appearance. However, I have to agree with those who request that the identities of other parties who owned this coin might be important to them.
In my opinion, from the pair of images I have seen of this coin, the piece was thoroughly AT and hardly convincing. In a case such as this I believe that dealer trust has very little to do with it and that dealer greed is the motivating force. We've all heard stories about coins; some of them true and some completely fabricated. In my experience in hunting down and studying toned coins, this coin looks little, if anything, like a coin that was stored in a paper envelope for a significant period of time. The ability of the coin to "fool" so many full-time dealers and graders can be interpreted that these people were either willing to look the other way in deference to the potential profit that the coin might generate or that they truly don't know much about that which they sell. I believe there is a healthy dose of both in this case, regardless of how respected certain dealers may be on the bourse or the PCGS forum, and remember that "respected" does not entirely equate to "knowledgeable".
If this is the perception of an appreciable minority of folks, and I think that it very well might be, then it becomes germane to know the identity of those who owned this coin and pushed it as a legitimate rarity. After all, this information might allow me to avoid these dealers when I want to deal with superbly toned, original coinage. The extension of that avoidance may be that I am given the tools to protect my wealth from being buried in a bad coin. I believe it was Legend who once wrote that amateur dealers could bury their clients in a coin inadvertantly while professional dealers could bury their client in a coin deliberately. I don't want to be that client in either instance and knowing this chain of ownership may allow me to achieve that goal in the future.
The fact that the coin was graded by NGC is highly disturbing and I can only hope that the internal workings of NGC are analyzed and the paradigm changed so that carelessness such as this is not repeated. It may also be hoped that those who were responsible for the NGC certification of the coin are taken to task and learn something from the experience in order to make NGC, and PCGS by extension, stronger.
I don't think my post will get much play due to its late nature and perhaps limited scope, and I can imagine that honest, thoughtful and responsible folk might disagree with my reasoning but I think it important that the ideas be put out there so that those who might not think this way can read it. >>
Very, very well spoken and point well taken. Thanks for your input Tom.
<<< The fact that the coin was graded by NGC is highly disturbing and I can only hope that the internal workings of NGC are analyzed and the paradigm changed so that carelessness such as this is not repeated. >>>
Good post Tom. Unfortunately however, this is not the first blatantly AT'd Peace dollar that NGC has holdered from what I've seen recently, just the one that has apparently received the most attention. I've seen a few really obvious and awful ones in NGC holders over the past year or so, and that is equally if not more disturbing to me.
I disrespectfully agree with your point, no--I respectfully disagree, no--actually I respectfully agree when you put it in that light--except that in my world, the severity of the crime for medicare fraud and insurance scams is much greater than that for coin doctoring. In fact, so far as I know, doctoring a coin is not a crime (but I may be wrong on this). >>
I do not understand this line of thought. Are we to assume that stealing a $13.99 DVD from an electronics store is less of a crime than stealing a $139.99 DVD player from the same store? Of course murder is a worse crime than stealing, but trying to nail some coin collector for over 12K (buying a $55 AT coin then putting a 12.5K tag on it) isn't exactly nothing either. It is surely worse than trying to nail some little old lady by putting up cheap wood siding on her house (say worth 3K) rather than the expensive cedar siding (say worth 10K) she thought she was paying for. That I am sure you would agree is a punishable offense.
Sure this may not be "as bad" as serious medicare fraud and it should not be prosecuted as severely, but it "ain't nothin either". It should be revealed to us--the collector community-- and not taken care of by the select few who will decide amongst themselves what to say to the rest of us. The same few, I may add, that told us collectors---"This one is real-Trust me".
Honestly, I can't see why these guys can't be brought in to help out if the industry insiders are so unmotivated to clean it up themselves. I'm serious. I am considering organizing a collector based effort. Anyone else have similar thoughts, please PM me.
<< <i>I disagree. If what Brandon relates is correct (and I only state it that way as that beyond his purchase, what Brandon relates is secondhand). The "bay area dealer" deliberately misreprented the coin and lied about it blatently. He is NOT enitiled to lie (stating that the coin was in the 2x2 for years, etc) when he knows this to be false, and by doing so he forfeits his entitlement to sell the coin as if he is an honest man.
Please be aware that we are trying to find out where the lies began. >>
Hey, I thaught Snakes said "if it's certified by PCGS or NGC, it's good enough for me".
What happened to the home of the "boooner toners"?
<< <i>Honestly, I can't see why these guys can't be brought in to help out if the industry insiders are so unmotivated to clean it up themselves. I'm serious. I am considering organizing a collector based effort. Anyone else have similar thoughts, please PM me.
The PCGS-slabbed modern commems that were pan-fried were done by a forum member who had a collection titled something like "The Golden Silver Dollar Commemorative Collection" or something remniscent of that. If I recall correctly, he found that if he mixed in these pan-fried commems with white commems that PCGS would grade them, but if he put in a submission that was made up only of pan-fried commems that they would be bagged as AT. You may find the information by doing a search of the boards.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Comments
"Is this thread a joke? Hell, I've been away for a week and I miss all the stupidity!"
Now i know whay there wasn't any name calling in this thread....untill now.
I agree completely and now understand why I was unceremoniously ejected from the Keets Numismatic Guild as a result. Someone please send Keets a copy of that movie!
This doctoring issue is so much more harmful to the hobby than the telemarketers and all those who screw the widows. Doctoring has the potential to bring down the entire hobby.
I wish we could find a word other than "doctoring" to use in this context. While the medical business is far from free of ethical and moral issues, I think the coin biz is giving us a bad name.
But wait! I am not sure how to handle that string of emoticons. Does the
I can, I believe, understand why Anaconda is protecting their source, but in this case, I believe the hobby would be better served by full disclosure...Mike
A Few Good Men
written by Aaron Sorkin
Jessep (Jack Nicholson): You want answers?
Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
I did it very quickly, and if I had to do it over again, I would have made some changes. I am tempted to go back and tweak it, but then some people will be all over me for editing my post.
<< <i>Once again, Where is the scam, here? >>
Some collector almost ended up with a $55 coin in thier retirement fund and $12000 less. You can't see a scam?? It almost worked.
Now it looks like NGC got scammed because they will need to make Anaconda whole while someone is still up many thousands. I would not rush to to say that the wagons are circling for the safety of the dealer community but unless there is a name or two disclosed at some point as well as a punitive action announced, I'd say that all parties became more interested in making sure this isn't on the front page of Coin World and possibly on the mind of the next newbie with a fat checkbook who might decide not to take any chances.
Of course things take time and everyones afraid of being sued or blackballed from the dealers "inner circle" but it shouldn't take more than a few days to sort out the details here and I can't see anyone's reluctance to name the person they bought from, there's no crime in that unless there was a conspiracy involved.
Anything less than full disclosure of the chain of purchase here is a "cover up." We want the truth and we can handle the truth. Only the guilty should be afraid of it.
If i sold someone a high dollar coin that i just had certified and it was found out to be at i would refund the money
and start looking for the dealer with the story to get my refund.
Looks like someone will make a bunch on this coin even though it has been removed from the market.
<< <i>There will always be coin doctors. >>
Of course, and the better they get the more there is concern that the who issue could blow up. There is too much profit made on common coins with toning selling at 20-50X grade level for the dealer community to see it end. Then what happens when all those with these high priced items tucked away, certified or not , start to question if they have AT or NT. Does anyone think NGC (or PCGS) want this story spread and names named?? If this spreads big time through the collector community how many toners will be sent back for review??Do the dealers with dozens of past sales want thier clients to question thier coins? Insecure buyers wanting thier money back.
There will be a lot of peer pressure to hush this one up. Anaconda did what anyone would do, he went to NGC for a refund. He had little choice. Now let's see if he or NGC is willing to really "do the right thing."
<< <i>
<< <i>Once again, Where is the scam, here? >>
Some collector almost ended up with a $55 coin in thier retirement fund and $12000 less. You can't see a scam?? It almost worked.
Now it looks like NGC got scammed because they will need to make Anaconda whole while someone is still up many thousands. I would not rush to to say that the wagons are circling for the safety of the dealer community but unless there is a name or two disclosed at some point as well as a punitive action announced, I'd say that all parties became more interested in making sure this isn't on the front page of Coin World and possibly on the mind of the next newbie with a fat checkbook who might decide not to take any chances.
Of course things take time and everyones afraid of being sued or blackballed from the dealers "inner circle" but it shouldn't take more than a few days to sort out the details here and I can't see anyone's reluctance to name the person they bought from, there's no crime in that unless there was a conspiracy involved.
Anything less than full disclosure of the chain of purchase here is a "cover up." We want the truth and we can handle the truth. Only the guilty should be afraid of it. >>
No, there isn't any scam here. The only "scam" is a 55.00 coin which is magically worth 12000.00 simply because it has pretty colors which occurred over time rather than all at once. I am not saying that the premium is not valid based on eye appeal...only that if the experts cannot tell whether the colors occurred "naturally" or not then how the colors got there is irrelevant. The eye appeal is the same. One either thinks the coin is attractive and therefore worth the premium or he doesn't.
Y'all know the answer to this one.
If on the other hand NGC makes Anaconda whole, how did they arrive at their figure? If I grossly overpay for a coin that NGC mistakenly/erronesouly slabs, I suspect the value of the guaranty ends at the book value for the coin, and the fact that I overpaid for the grade is my problem.
Anyone care to shed some light on this area?
<< <i>The coin was never really worth 12 or 14,000 dollars. That was just a magic number placed on it by Anaconda. Would someone had paid that? I hope not. >>
If they had, they would now own it
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin was never really worth 12 or 14,000 dollars. That was just a magic number placed on it by Anaconda. Would someone had paid that? I hope not. >>
If they had, they would now own it
That would seem to be the whole truth .............................
I believe that very few among us, if put in the precise position/predicament that Brandon and Adrian were in, would have been willing and/or able to handle it with the class and dignity that they did.
For me, that doesn't speak very highly of the dealer community. But I guess y'all know better than I how the average dealer would have responsed. Let the back-slapping continue......
<< <i>Put yourself in their position for a moment, in the middle of a big fishbowl, with the bright, harsh light of the forum shining down on you, criticizing, accusing, questioning, blaming, insisting, second-guessing your actions, decisions, motives, etc. >>
Good ol' Coinguy still trying, and trying.
<< <i>This is yet another reason why people also should not buy from images. You DO need to see a coin to confirm if the color is real.
Why does it always make such a difference knowing who was behind it? If you haven't been dealing w/that ex PCGS grader until now, then common sense says you'll scrutinize anyone who is ex PCGS. Why does the name matter?
I do believe NGC will buy back the coin-I've seen them spend $200,000.00 on a coin. The value definately would be an issue. I highly doubt there is ANY LEGITMATE SECONDARY MARKET that would place that coin anywhere near five figures.
Such a train wreck!
I thought they bought the coin at Long Beach and the coin was in hand. Or is this another peace dollar Laura is speaking of?
Brandon, there are a lot of professional people in the world I sense you do not run into them very often.
Keets, keep going I am with you all the way. Name them.
If we prosecute the coin doctors we should do likewise to the coin cleaners!
I am so surprised Laura had to post, she has a thing for the NGC graders I think.
Ex PCGS grader takes it to the NGC table says it all to me! (Big E you are right!)
Tbig
<< <i>Kessam: Who ordered the code red on the peace dollar? >>
I never thought it would be easy- but I still don't see any other option they had. If they had acted defensive, it just would have made them look that much worse. And I do think that Stman has a point- if you're going to make a big living on selling questionable toners for FIVE figures, then I think it comes with the territory that you're going to get some serious scrutiny... But it seems that their reputation is still very well intact, so perhaps all turns out pretty well anyway.....
I was always told that sunlight is the best antiseptic, yet in this thread I am being told (by those who know sooo much more than little old me) not to worry because the guilty (???) parties involved will look into this themselves and take care of things.
Hey Al --- you get a major bump in my regard for you for standing on ethics and not going along with the tail wagging the dog story.
I saw the thread a minute after Brandon posted and figured it wouldn't get far.
Boy, was I wrong
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
That would be Anaconda Rare Coins.
I agree with Keets - and it all smells fishy, but what are ya gonna do? Everybody cheats, and everybody lies. I think Anaconda's prices are frightening, but he does have a 100% positive feedback.
A lawyer friend of mine (still keep him at arms length) once told me, "It doesn't matter if the guy is guilty or innocent - what matters is which lawyer tells the better story!!!".
It's all about who can screw the next guy and escape with the profit. Capitalism, at its finest.
Ever read those damn auction catalogs, and all the GREAT STORIES AND HISTORIES??? Please. Fun to read I guess. Time for me to go back and read that great true-story book by Frey. Oprah said it is a MUST!!! All his troubles, but I feel for him - He's from (sob) Michigan and he had (sob) all those drug problems....
Sorry, they're laughing at US!!! They didn't do a thing wrong in this line of transaction fiasco. Some dealer made up the 2 X 2 envelope story. I want to meet him.
edited for spelling correction.
Once a collector purchased it, and then wished to sell it back to them, then they would question the toning!
<< <i>Why does it always make such a difference knowing who was behind it? If you haven't been dealing w/that ex PCGS grader until now, then common sense says you'll scrutinize anyone who is ex PCGS. Why does the name matter? >>
Because I like to feel kicked in the groin when I find out that these highly respected paragons of virtue in the business may at times be no better that those WANNABEES that are so loathed here. I may not deal with the person now, but knowing the "rest of the story" may affect how I might or might not deal with him in the future. Its sorta like finding out that the local judge who is so tough on all the druggies is one of the biggest pushers in the area.
<< <i>Is this thread a joke? Hell, I've been away for a week and I miss all the stupidity!
I highly doubt that an ex PCGS grader doesn't know AT. Coins do turn after grading, but from the little I can gather, this coin was clear AT as can be. I also highly doubt the dealers story.
Issues like this separate the men from the boys. Like I've said before, children should not play with matches. And ANY colored coins are definately matches. >>
Hi Laura
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>I do find it puzzling that the individuals (TPG's and Dealers) who potentially can have their livelihood impacted by deteriorating consumer confidence as a result of pervasive doctoring are the ones who are most apathetic to do anything serious about cleaning it up. Collectors are sending a message loud and clear. Seems like no one really gives a crap. Lets see what the future holds. No business model survives without integrity. >>
ar*ro*gance (noun)
CONTEMPTUOUS PRIDE
a strong feeling of proud self-importance that is expressed by treating other people with contempt or disregard
$12,000 ...That's a lot of popcorn........
I disrespectfully agree with your point, no--I respectfully disagree, no--actually I respectfully agree when you put it in that light--except that in my world, the severity of the crime for medicare fraud and insurance scams is much greater than that for coin doctoring. In fact, so far as I know, doctoring a coin is not a crime (but I may be wrong on this).
In my opinion, from the pair of images I have seen of this coin, the piece was thoroughly AT and hardly convincing. In a case such as this I believe that dealer trust has very little to do with it and that dealer greed is the motivating force. We've all heard stories about coins; some of them true and some completely fabricated. In my experience in hunting down and studying toned coins, this coin looks little, if anything, like a coin that was stored in a paper envelope for a significant period of time. The ability of the coin to "fool" so many full-time dealers and graders can be interpreted that these people were either willing to look the other way in deference to the potential profit that the coin might generate or that they truly don't know much about that which they sell. I believe there is a healthy dose of both in this case, regardless of how respected certain dealers may be on the bourse or the PCGS forum, and remember that "respected" does not entirely equate to "knowledgeable".
If this is the perception of an appreciable minority of folks, and I think that it very well might be, then it becomes germane to know the identity of those who owned this coin and pushed it as a legitimate rarity. After all, this information might allow me to avoid these dealers when I want to deal with superbly toned, original coinage. The extension of that avoidance may be that I am given the tools to protect my wealth from being buried in a bad coin. I believe it was Legend who once wrote that amateur dealers could bury their clients in a coin inadvertantly while professional dealers could bury their client in a coin deliberately. I don't want to be that client in either instance and knowing this chain of ownership may allow me to achieve that goal in the future.
The fact that the coin was graded by NGC is highly disturbing and I can only hope that the internal workings of NGC are analyzed and the paradigm changed so that carelessness such as this is not repeated. It may also be hoped that those who were responsible for the NGC certification of the coin are taken to task and learn something from the experience in order to make NGC, and PCGS by extension, stronger.
I don't think my post will get much play due to its late nature and perhaps limited scope, and I can imagine that honest, thoughtful and responsible folk might disagree with my reasoning but I think it important that the ideas be put out there so that those who might not think this way can read it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I've largely stayed out of posting on this subject because I have not seen the coin in-hand and because it seems that so much information has not yet been released. Therefore, please take into account that I have not seen the coin in-hand when I write something about its appearance. However, I have to agree with those who request that the identities of other parties who owned this coin might be important to them.
In my opinion, from the pair of images I have seen of this coin, the piece was thoroughly AT and hardly convincing. In a case such as this I believe that dealer trust has very little to do with it and that dealer greed is the motivating force. We've all heard stories about coins; some of them true and some completely fabricated. In my experience in hunting down and studying toned coins, this coin looks little, if anything, like a coin that was stored in a paper envelope for a significant period of time. The ability of the coin to "fool" so many full-time dealers and graders can be interpreted that these people were either willing to look the other way in deference to the potential profit that the coin might generate or that they truly don't know much about that which they sell. I believe there is a healthy dose of both in this case, regardless of how respected certain dealers may be on the bourse or the PCGS forum, and remember that "respected" does not entirely equate to "knowledgeable".
If this is the perception of an appreciable minority of folks, and I think that it very well might be, then it becomes germane to know the identity of those who owned this coin and pushed it as a legitimate rarity. After all, this information might allow me to avoid these dealers when I want to deal with superbly toned, original coinage. The extension of that avoidance may be that I am given the tools to protect my wealth from being buried in a bad coin. I believe it was Legend who once wrote that amateur dealers could bury their clients in a coin inadvertantly while professional dealers could bury their client in a coin deliberately. I don't want to be that client in either instance and knowing this chain of ownership may allow me to achieve that goal in the future.
The fact that the coin was graded by NGC is highly disturbing and I can only hope that the internal workings of NGC are analyzed and the paradigm changed so that carelessness such as this is not repeated. It may also be hoped that those who were responsible for the NGC certification of the coin are taken to task and learn something from the experience in order to make NGC, and PCGS by extension, stronger.
I don't think my post will get much play due to its late nature and perhaps limited scope, and I can imagine that honest, thoughtful and responsible folk might disagree with my reasoning but I think it important that the ideas be put out there so that those who might not think this way can read it. >>
Very, very well spoken and point well taken. Thanks for your input Tom.
<< <i>Very, very well spoken and point well taken. Thanks for your input Tom.
Good post Tom. Unfortunately however, this is not the first blatantly AT'd Peace dollar that NGC has holdered from what I've seen recently, just the one that has apparently received the most attention. I've seen a few really obvious and awful ones in NGC holders over the past year or so, and that is equally if not more disturbing to me.
<< <i>SFDukie,
I disrespectfully agree with your point, no--I respectfully disagree, no--actually I respectfully agree when you put it in that light--except that in my world, the severity of the crime for medicare fraud and insurance scams is much greater than that for coin doctoring. In fact, so far as I know, doctoring a coin is not a crime (but I may be wrong on this). >>
I do not understand this line of thought. Are we to assume that stealing a $13.99 DVD from an electronics store is less of a crime than stealing a $139.99 DVD player from the same store? Of course murder is a worse crime than stealing, but trying to nail some coin collector for over 12K (buying a $55 AT coin then putting a 12.5K tag on it) isn't exactly nothing either. It is surely worse than trying to nail some little old lady by putting up cheap wood siding on her house (say worth 3K) rather than the expensive cedar siding (say worth 10K) she thought she was paying for. That I am sure you would agree is a punishable offense.
Sure this may not be "as bad" as serious medicare fraud and it should not be prosecuted as severely, but it "ain't nothin either". It should be revealed to us--the collector community-- and not taken care of by the select few who will decide amongst themselves what to say to the rest of us. The same few, I may add, that told us collectors---"This one is real-Trust me".
http://www.ftc.gov/
<< <i>I disagree. If what Brandon relates is correct (and I only state it that way as that beyond his purchase, what Brandon relates is secondhand). The "bay area dealer" deliberately misreprented the coin and lied about it blatently. He is NOT enitiled to lie (stating that the coin was in the 2x2 for years, etc) when he knows this to be false, and by doing so he forfeits his entitlement to sell the coin as if he is an honest man.
Please be aware that we are trying to find out where the lies began. >>
Hey, I thaught Snakes said "if it's certified by PCGS or NGC, it's good enough for me".
What happened to the home of the "boooner toners"?
<< <i>Honestly, I can't see why these guys can't be brought in to help out if the industry insiders are so unmotivated to clean it up themselves. I'm serious. I am considering organizing a collector based effort. Anyone else have similar thoughts, please PM me.
http://www.ftc.gov/ >>
Believe me, your frustration is felt by all of us. Nobody ever outs them.
Jerry
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Don"
Ahhhh, to your point Don and mine, it has been handled to professionaly, to slick, something stinks.
Tbig
<< <i>Ahhhh, to your point Don and mine, it has been handled to professionaly, to slick, something stinks.
Tbig >>
Please translate.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ahhhh, to your point Don and mine, it has been handled to professionaly, to slick, something stinks.
Tbig >>
Please translate. >>
Yes... please do