@mlittle said:
Why would a reverse proof cost $12.50 more than a proof? Is it harder for the Mint to make?
Because it's more special, a little more rare, and the market will support it. None of these coins are priced based on the cost of production.
They will sell out at $185 as surely as they would at $160, so why should they leave the $25 on the table? Would you? This is an extra $6.25 million for the US Treasury.
No. It is due to fewer units
covering development costs.
If you say so. The Morgan and Peace proofs each had 400K units, while the uncs "only" had 275K. Why were the proofs priced higher, given the fewer units the uncs had over which to spread development costs? Proofs really cost so much more to strike, twice? The planchets cost so much more to polish? Whatever this cost is, it isn't more than covered by the additional 125K coins struck for the same development cost?
They make a ton of money on all of these things at current prices. They price them at a point the market will support. Period. If they couldn't sell them at a profit, and there was no Congressional mandate, they simply wouldn't offer them.
They aren't pricing them at an additional $25 per set to cover an additional $6.25 million in development costs, because there are no additional development costs. The coins are the same. They have already been fully developed. The only difference is in the finish.
I like these coins in all iterations but after opening the 2021s, and 2023s so far put them back up and tossed 'em in the closet. Novelty gone. I would guess for "true" collectors that this is true in 90% of the cases.
I am still in for one RP set but probably shouldn't bother. Why would I as a collector give the TPGs or middlemen any more of my money?
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I expect there will be a lot of cancellations of at least some of the holders of 5 subscription max quantities, down to one or two and thousands of these will become available on the Mint website a week or so before the cutoff for changes.
@Goldminers said:
I expect there will be a lot of cancellations of at least some of the holders of 5 subscription max quantities, down to one or two and thousands of these will become available on the Mint website a week or so before the cutoff for changes.
Probably. But, every other iteration of these with mintages below 250K sold out, and those with mintages above 250K sold more than 250K. So, one way or the other, these WILL sell out. Either on 11/9, or when HHLs are lifted on 11/10.
Well...for whatever it's worth...I'm in for 5 sets...down from 7...but only because I've also decided to take a run at completing my Liberty Head Nickel Unc. set in the next few months.
I’m down for three but I’m beginning to wonder if all of us are creating our own sellout. I’m guessing it will be a special set, first year and all, but I’m not planning on any great profit potential, at least not for several years.
I’m down for three but I’m beginning to wonder if all of us are creating our own sellout. I’m guessing it will be a special set, first year and all, but I’m not planning on any great profit potential, at least not for several years.
That's what happens with all Mint issues, especially ones with HHL greater than one. That's why they have short term price increases and long term decreases. Once the distribution smooths itself out, the artificial scarcity disappears.
The gamble as I see it: Most first attempts at a reverse proof, haven't born out well for the 70 population. They have had the opportunity to learn for 17 years. Will the Morgan's, and or Peace's, intricacy levels compared to eagles cause the grading drops like previous first attempts?
@Pilot123 said:
The gamble as I see it: Most first attempts at a reverse proof, haven't born out well for the 70 population. They have had the opportunity to learn for 17 years. Will the Morgan's, and or Peace's, intricacy levels compared to eagles cause the grading drops like previous first attempts?
No. Now, the Mint has an Advance Release program, where a select group of mega dealers have an opportunity to purchase a limited amount early, and get special designations from the grading services.
You know this has happened when large dealers start pre-selling in quantity, as has already happened. The fact that RP 70 prices are as reasonable as they are indicates that the 70 rate is every bit as high as it was for the uncs and proofs that have already been released.
There is no mystery here, and this is why people are dumping subscriptions and you can still sign up, right now. They will still be popular, and sell out, but there is no gamble, or upside for a flip, at $185 when you can buy as many RP 70 FDOI sets as you want at $350. Unless you are a dealer dealing in sufficient quantity to get them graded for around $10 a coin, shipping included.
I have 4 RP sets on subscription, all 4 are single orders. I have 2 sets promised locally and will keep at one of the remaining 2 sets. All 4 sets should be delivered in sealed boxes too.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
You know this has happened when large dealers start pre-selling in quantity, as has already happened. The fact that RP 70 prices are as reasonable as they are indicates that the 70 rate is every bit as high as it was for the uncs and proofs that have already been released.
Do you really think the dealers have the reverse proofs in hand today? Do you really think the grading companies have actually graded one today? They are gambling, and they can get burned, which is why the prices are what they currently are.
No one knows what the percentages will shake out at. I was just stating; past history of first time striking reverse proofs, has historically not been as good as proofs are.
You know this has happened when large dealers start pre-selling in quantity, as has already happened. The fact that RP 70 prices are as reasonable as they are indicates that the 70 rate is every bit as high as it was for the uncs and proofs that have already been released.
Do you really think the dealers have the reverse proofs in hand today? Do you really think the grading companies have actually graded one today? They are gambling, and they can get burned, which is why the prices are what they currently are.
No one knows what the percentages will shake out at. I was just stating; past history of first time striking reverse proofs, has historically not been as good as proofs are.
You have to care about facts...
None have yet shown up in a population report at either NGC or PCGS.
Edited to add: when they started the program, ABPP participants picked up their coins at the MINT a few DAYS before the release, not weeks in advance. I find no evidence that the terms of this program has changed.
The Silver Wolverine discusses the switching of the dates for the 2 coin reverse proof set with the 2023 Innovation $1 reverse proof set. I know the Mint changed the date for the sets to the 9th from the 14th, but I didn't know the 2023 Innovation RP $1's were originally scheduled for the 9th. Has this been discussed before?
You know this has happened when large dealers start pre-selling in quantity, as has already happened. The fact that RP 70 prices are as reasonable as they are indicates that the 70 rate is every bit as high as it was for the uncs and proofs that have already been released.
Do you really think the dealers have the reverse proofs in hand today? Do you really think the grading companies have actually graded one today? They are gambling, and they can get burned, which is why the prices are what they currently are.
No one knows what the percentages will shake out at. I was just stating; past history of first time striking reverse proofs, has historically not been as good as proofs are.
No, they are absolutely, positively, 1,000,000% NOT gambling. Yes, large dealers have Advance Release coins in hand, and graded. They can extrapolate from them and know what their 70 grade through rate will be on the regular coins, and are putting them on pre-sale and pricing them accordingly.
If this were not the case, what would account for so many dealers suddenly having such an urge to gamble? And what would account for the aggressive pricing? Trust me, this did not exist before the Advance Release program went into effect.
There is no gamble here. Dealers just don't need to gamble on new issues. They can, and do, make money, not matter how good or bad grading turns out to be.
It would make no sense to price anything so aggressively, and risk getting burned, just to make an early sale. That's why it never happened before. Early pre-sales were always priced high enough to guarantee dealers profits no matter poorly new issues graded. They don't do it now because they KNOW what grading is going to look like. They have an early view via the Advance Release program.
You will see in a few weeks. You are wrong about this, and past history with RPs is irrelevant here. How do I know? By the pricing!
You know this has happened when large dealers start pre-selling in quantity, as has already happened. The fact that RP 70 prices are as reasonable as they are indicates that the 70 rate is every bit as high as it was for the uncs and proofs that have already been released.
Do you really think the dealers have the reverse proofs in hand today? Do you really think the grading companies have actually graded one today? They are gambling, and they can get burned, which is why the prices are what they currently are.
No one knows what the percentages will shake out at. I was just stating; past history of first time striking reverse proofs, has historically not been as good as proofs are.
You have to care about facts...
None have yet shown up in a population report at either NGC or PCGS.
And they won't until at least 11/9. But the pricing tells the story.
I don't have a crystal ball here. I just have price patterns from the first two releases this year. And now pre-release pricing from reputable, volume dealers for this set.
I was right about the $600+ pre-sales a few weeks ago, and I'm right about this. You can lecture me about "facts" for a few weeks, and then disappear or falsely accuse me of selectively reading your posts when I turn out to be right about this as well.
The pre-release pricing is a "fact," and I am drawing a reasonable conclusion from it. And you will argue with me, because that's what you do. And you won't circle back and give credit where it is due, when I turn out to have been on to something because that's not something you do.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
@cagcrisp said:
There are absolutely No two coin Reverse Proofs sets available to anyone as yet…
Sure there aren't.
From the Westminster Mint website:
"The Advanced Release designation signifies that a particular coin was among a small group of coins, the absolute first to be released from the United States Mint before the coins were offered to collectors and the general public online. The Advance Release designation was introduced in 2021 and is only available on a select number of coin series. Advance Release coins are certified and graded ahead of coins designated as First Day of Issue and have tiny certified populations."
From the Texas Bullion Exchange:
"NGC offers the Advance Releases designation for select coins purchased by U.S. Mint-approved designated coin dealers before the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale. Not all Mint products will be offered through this program, and no more than 10 percent of the total mintage limit will be distributed under this program.
To qualify for Advance Releases, coins must be purchased by one of the designated coin vendors prior to the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale and must be received by NGC or an NGC-approved depository within one week of their ship date. NGC will require that the submitter provide adequate evidence (including purchase receipts) to demonstrate the date when the coins were purchased and shipped.
The Advance Releases designation is made available only to select submitters of bulk quantities of qualifying coins. An advance request is required, and there is generally a higher grading fee for the specific designation verification and attribution.
Advance Releases are listed separately in the NGC Census. If any coins have been graded with the Advance Releases designation, they will appear when the variety symbol beneath a non-designated issue is clicked.
But while all those things are true, collectors have found themselves in a state of confusion surrounding this new Advance Releases designation. Let us break it down.
The United States Mint finally released a statement about the story behind the new designation. However, they have no ties to NGC’s creation of the new collecting experience. So how did it come to be? As we already know, the existing Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program (NBPP) allows for licensed, full-time coin dealers to purchase numismatic products directly from the US Mint. This includes annual sets like the Proof Set, Silver Proof Set, and Uncirculated Coin Set, in addition to American Silver & Gold Eagle products.
While the Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program is a well-established program, it opened the door for the U.S. Mint to create a new program called the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program (ABBP). This system allows those qualifying bulk purchasers to order a limited number of numismatic Mint products prior to their official release date. Stipulations include being an active member of the existing Bulk Program, having a two-year consecutive revenue average of at least $500,000 a year, and compliance with the Mint’s returns policy. Not all numismatic products are offered through this new elite program. The Authorized Bulk dealers who qualify for this program must pick up their products at the US Mint’s fulfillment center three days prior to the official release date.
The select dealers that are able to take advantage of the new designation are sitting on extremely low-populated coins. More so than any other designation before it, this new Advance Releases designation sits in its own pocket within the industry."
@cagcrisp said:
There are absolutely No two coin Reverse Proofs sets available to anyone as yet…
Sure there aren't.
Advance Releases are listed separately in the NGC Census. If any coins have been graded with the Advance Releases designation, they will appear when the variety symbol beneath a non-designated issue is clicked.
But while all those things are true, collectors have found themselves in a state of confusion surrounding this new Advance Releases designation. Let us break it down.
The United States Mint finally released a statement about the story behind the new designation. However, they have no ties to NGC’s creation of the new collecting experience. So how did it come to be? As we already know, the existing Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program (NBPP) allows for licensed, full-time coin dealers to purchase numismatic products directly from the US Mint. This includes annual
The select dealers that are able to take advantage of the new designation are sitting on extremely low-populated coins. More so than any other designation before it, this new Advance Releases designation sits in its own pocket within the industry."
@cagcrisp said:
There are absolutely No two coin Reverse Proofs sets available to anyone as yet…
Sure there aren't.
From the Westminster Mint website:
"The Advanced Release designation signifies that a particular coin was among a small group of coins, the absolute first to be released from the United States Mint before the coins were offered to collectors and the general public online. The Advance Release designation was introduced in 2021 and is only available on a select number of coin series. Advance Release coins are certified and graded ahead of coins designated as First Day of Issue and have tiny certified populations."
From the Texas Bullion Exchange:
"NGC offers the Advance Releases designation for select coins purchased by U.S. Mint-approved designated coin dealers before the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale. Not all Mint products will be offered through this program, and no more than 10 percent of the total mintage limit will be distributed under this program.
To qualify for Advance Releases, coins must be purchased by one of the designated coin vendors prior to the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale and must be received by NGC or an NGC-approved depository within one week of their ship date. NGC will require that the submitter provide adequate evidence (including purchase receipts) to demonstrate the date when the coins were purchased and shipped.
The Advance Releases designation is made available only to select submitters of bulk quantities of qualifying coins. An advance request is required, and there is generally a higher grading fee for the specific designation verification and attribution.
Advance Releases are listed separately in the NGC Census. If any coins have been graded with the Advance Releases designation, they will appear when the variety symbol beneath a non-designated issue is clicked.
But while all those things are true, collectors have found themselves in a state of confusion surrounding this new Advance Releases designation. Let us break it down.
The United States Mint finally released a statement about the story behind the new designation. However, they have no ties to NGC’s creation of the new collecting experience. So how did it come to be? As we already know, the existing Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program (NBPP) allows for licensed, full-time coin dealers to purchase numismatic products directly from the US Mint. This includes annual sets like the Proof Set, Silver Proof Set, and Uncirculated Coin Set, in addition to American Silver & Gold Eagle products.
While the Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program is a well-established program, it opened the door for the U.S. Mint to create a new program called the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program (ABBP). This system allows those qualifying bulk purchasers to order a limited number of numismatic Mint products prior to their official release date. Stipulations include being an active member of the existing Bulk Program, having a two-year consecutive revenue average of at least $500,000 a year, and compliance with the Mint’s returns policy. Not all numismatic products are offered through this new elite program. The Authorized Bulk dealers who qualify for this program must pick up their products at the US Mint’s fulfillment center three days prior to the official release date.
The select dealers that are able to take advantage of the new designation are sitting on extremely low-populated coins. More so than any other designation before it, this new Advance Releases designation sits in its own pocket within the industry."
@cagcrisp said:
There are absolutely No two coin Reverse Proofs sets available to anyone as yet…
[...]
While the Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program is a well-established program, it opened the door for the U.S. Mint to create a new program called the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program (ABBP). This system allows those qualifying bulk purchasers to order a limited number of numismatic Mint products prior to their official release date. Stipulations include being an active member of the existing Bulk Program, having a two-year consecutive revenue average of at least $500,000 a year, and compliance with the Mint’s returns policy. Not all numismatic products are offered through this new elite program. The Authorized Bulk dealers who qualify for this program must pick up their products at the US Mint’s fulfillment center three days prior to the official release date.
[...]
The quote from the TBE says 3 days prior to the release date. This matches the 03/19/21 Mint press release about the ABPP.
Has this timing changed? If so, do you have insight into what the timing is now?
Edit #1 - corrected a typo in the Mint press release date.
Edit #2 - just sent an e-mail to the Mint proper, and asked about this. If they respond, I will post the info in this thread.
This can be summed up by what everyone knows for a fact. There are many, many, many coins in 70 slabs that are not a 70. I have seen more smudged , banged and scratched coins in 70 slabs than should be allowed.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Sold Sep 26, 2023Sold Item
2023-S MORGAN & PEACE DOLLAR 2 COIN REVERSE PROOF SET FDI NGC PF70 - PRESALE !!Opens in a new window or tab
$561.002 bidsFree shippingView similar active items
Earliest example of presale I could find on Ebay. Do you really think the coins left the mint by SEPTEMBER 26, 2023? Do you really think they were already graded by NGC at some point before SEPTEMBER 26, 2023? And, were returned to the seller, to have an idea of the grading pattern? As Uncle Joe would say: Come on, Man!
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
That's what I said. NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales. THE ONLY people allowed to place prior orders are the ARPP people NOT the other bulk buyers.
@cagcrisp said:
There are absolutely No two coin Reverse Proofs sets available to anyone as yet…
Sure there aren't.
From the Westminster Mint website:
"The Advanced Release designation signifies that a particular coin was among a small group of coins, the absolute first to be released from the United States Mint before the coins were offered to collectors and the general public online. The Advance Release designation was introduced in 2021 and is only available on a select number of coin series. Advance Release coins are certified and graded ahead of coins designated as First Day of Issue and have tiny certified populations."
From the Texas Bullion Exchange:
"NGC offers the Advance Releases designation for select coins purchased by U.S. Mint-approved designated coin dealers before the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale. Not all Mint products will be offered through this program, and no more than 10 percent of the total mintage limit will be distributed under this program.
To qualify for Advance Releases, coins must be purchased by one of the designated coin vendors prior to the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale and must be received by NGC or an NGC-approved depository within one week of their ship date. NGC will require that the submitter provide adequate evidence (including purchase receipts) to demonstrate the date when the coins were purchased and shipped.
The Advance Releases designation is made available only to select submitters of bulk quantities of qualifying coins. An advance request is required, and there is generally a higher grading fee for the specific designation verification and attribution.
Advance Releases are listed separately in the NGC Census. If any coins have been graded with the Advance Releases designation, they will appear when the variety symbol beneath a non-designated issue is clicked.
But while all those things are true, collectors have found themselves in a state of confusion surrounding this new Advance Releases designation. Let us break it down.
The United States Mint finally released a statement about the story behind the new designation. However, they have no ties to NGC’s creation of the new collecting experience. So how did it come to be? As we already know, the existing Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program (NBPP) allows for licensed, full-time coin dealers to purchase numismatic products directly from the US Mint. This includes annual sets like the Proof Set, Silver Proof Set, and Uncirculated Coin Set, in addition to American Silver & Gold Eagle products.
While the Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program is a well-established program, it opened the door for the U.S. Mint to create a new program called the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program (ABBP). This system allows those qualifying bulk purchasers to order a limited number of numismatic Mint products prior to their official release date. Stipulations include being an active member of the existing Bulk Program, having a two-year consecutive revenue average of at least $500,000 a year, and compliance with the Mint’s returns policy. Not all numismatic products are offered through this new elite program. The Authorized Bulk dealers who qualify for this program must pick up their products at the US Mint’s fulfillment center three days prior to the official release date.
The select dealers that are able to take advantage of the new designation are sitting on extremely low-populated coins. More so than any other designation before it, this new Advance Releases designation sits in its own pocket within the industry."
But you will note that the FACTS you posted - thanks for that - indicate that COuNTER to your prior assertions: 1. Only ARBP can place prior orders and 2. They don't have the coins in hand yet.
Thank you for correcting your prior misinformation and for taking responsibilty for your mistake. It is greatly appreciated and marks a turning point in your relationship to the forum.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
You really aren't paying attention.
Read ALL the words . NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales.
The good news is that thanks to you, I'm not the biggest A-hole on the forum.
This from a guy who brags about never being in jail.🙄
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
You really aren't paying attention.
Read ALL the words . NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales.
The good news is that thanks to you, I'm not the biggest A-hole on the forum.
This from a guy who brags about never being in jail.🙄
So far, so good.
Although I did edit the comment out after rethinking it. But thank you for preserving it for eternity quoting it.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
You really aren't paying attention.
Read ALL the words . NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales.
The good news is that thanks to you, I'm not the biggest A-hole on the forum.
This from a guy who brags about never being in jail.🙄
So far, so good.
Although I did edit the comment out after rethinking it. But thank you for preserving it for eternity quoting it.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
You really aren't paying attention.
Read ALL the words . NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales.
The good news is that thanks to you, I'm not the biggest A-hole on the forum.
This from a guy who brags about never being in jail.🙄
So far, so good.
Although I did edit the comment out after rethinking it. But thank you for preserving it for eternity quoting it.
My pleasure!😎🤣😂
A real buddy would have edited it when I edited it.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
You really aren't paying attention.
Read ALL the words . NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales.
The good news is that thanks to you, I'm not the biggest A-hole on the forum.
This from a guy who brags about never being in jail.🙄
So far, so good.
Although I did edit the comment out after rethinking it. But thank you for preserving it for eternity quoting it.
My pleasure!😎🤣😂
A real buddy would have edited it when I edited it.
A real buddy wouldn't have called me Mother and snubbed my advice when I was trying to help you before you got to this point or mocked me for being put in jail.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
100% correct. I’ve checked at the most random of times and it’s hit or miss. Me thinks the computers auto adjust stock level availability based on cancellations of subscriptions. I mean, I hope they do and the mint isn’t as antiquated as the IRS’s tech capabilities….
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
100% correct. I’ve checked at the most random of times and it’s hit or miss. Me thinks the computers auto adjust stock level availability based on cancellations of subscriptions. I mean, I hope they do and the mint isn’t as antiquated as the IRS’s tech capabilities….
Agreed. I have read many times during the past few months how many members keep adjusting their subscription amounts mostly downward and the next day they magically appear as available.😉
@Goldbully said:
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
1) The mint makes up to 10% of the mintage available to the ABPP. However, the ABPP pulled just under 5% of the mintage for the uncs and proof, respectively.
2) The mint reserves at least 10% of the mintage for release day online sales.
3) The mint pulled an extra amount of the mintage (undetermined) for on site sales at the shows aligning with the release day, and for mint retail shop sales.
4) It is possible that the RP subscriptions amount to at least 75% of the mintage, but not more than 80%. This is conjecture on my part, given that the specific percentage of the mintage of the RP falling into 1, 2, & 3 above is unknown. And, it is assuming that there will not be as large a reduction of subscription in the final days prior to release as, say, the unc demonstrated. However, this conjecture is based on careful study of the unc and proof releases.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Goldbully said:
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
You really aren't paying attention.
Read ALL the words . NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales.
The good news is that thanks to you, I'm not the biggest A-hole on the forum.
Very classy. Your numerous posts like the one quoted above ensure that no one, either me or anyone else, has any shot at stripping you of whatever well-deserved forum titles you might hold.
Comments
If you say so. The Morgan and Peace proofs each had 400K units, while the uncs "only" had 275K. Why were the proofs priced higher, given the fewer units the uncs had over which to spread development costs? Proofs really cost so much more to strike, twice? The planchets cost so much more to polish? Whatever this cost is, it isn't more than covered by the additional 125K coins struck for the same development cost?
They make a ton of money on all of these things at current prices. They price them at a point the market will support. Period. If they couldn't sell them at a profit, and there was no Congressional mandate, they simply wouldn't offer them.
They aren't pricing them at an additional $25 per set to cover an additional $6.25 million in development costs, because there are no additional development costs. The coins are the same. They have already been fully developed. The only difference is in the finish.
Unc die design and development costs incurred previous for 2021 coins.
Not just etching also mirror finish on surfaces. Not an expert die machinist but others could explain the differences.
They could probably lower pricing for subsequent unc years but that would destroy value.
I like these coins in all iterations but after opening the 2021s, and 2023s so far put them back up and tossed 'em in the closet. Novelty gone. I would guess for "true" collectors that this is true in 90% of the cases.
I am still in for one RP set but probably shouldn't bother. Why would I as a collector give the TPGs or middlemen any more of my money?
Well, just Love coins, period.
I expect there will be a lot of cancellations of at least some of the holders of 5 subscription max quantities, down to one or two and thousands of these will become available on the Mint website a week or so before the cutoff for changes.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Probably. But, every other iteration of these with mintages below 250K sold out, and those with mintages above 250K sold more than 250K. So, one way or the other, these WILL sell out. Either on 11/9, or when HHLs are lifted on 11/10.
Well...for whatever it's worth...I'm in for 5 sets...down from 7...but only because I've also decided to take a run at completing my Liberty Head Nickel Unc. set in the next few months.
I’m down for three but I’m beginning to wonder if all of us are creating our own sellout. I’m guessing it will be a special set, first year and all, but I’m not planning on any great profit potential, at least not for several years.
$185> @Orlena said:
That's what happens with all Mint issues, especially ones with HHL greater than one. That's why they have short term price increases and long term decreases. Once the distribution smooths itself out, the artificial scarcity disappears.
Flip em fast
The gamble as I see it: Most first attempts at a reverse proof, haven't born out well for the 70 population. They have had the opportunity to learn for 17 years. Will the Morgan's, and or Peace's, intricacy levels compared to eagles cause the grading drops like previous first attempts?
No. Now, the Mint has an Advance Release program, where a select group of mega dealers have an opportunity to purchase a limited amount early, and get special designations from the grading services.
You know this has happened when large dealers start pre-selling in quantity, as has already happened. The fact that RP 70 prices are as reasonable as they are indicates that the 70 rate is every bit as high as it was for the uncs and proofs that have already been released.
There is no mystery here, and this is why people are dumping subscriptions and you can still sign up, right now. They will still be popular, and sell out, but there is no gamble, or upside for a flip, at $185 when you can buy as many RP 70 FDOI sets as you want at $350. Unless you are a dealer dealing in sufficient quantity to get them graded for around $10 a coin, shipping included.
I have 4 RP sets on subscription, all 4 are single orders. I have 2 sets promised locally and will keep at one of the remaining 2 sets. All 4 sets should be delivered in sealed boxes too.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Do you really think the dealers have the reverse proofs in hand today? Do you really think the grading companies have actually graded one today? They are gambling, and they can get burned, which is why the prices are what they currently are.
No one knows what the percentages will shake out at. I was just stating; past history of first time striking reverse proofs, has historically not been as good as proofs are.
You have to care about facts...
None have yet shown up in a population report at either NGC or PCGS.
Edited to add: when they started the program, ABPP participants picked up their coins at the MINT a few DAYS before the release, not weeks in advance. I find no evidence that the terms of this program has changed.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/advance-american-eagle-sales-offered-for-bulk-dealers#:~:text=To participate in the ABPP advance product offerings,,before a product becomes available for advance purchase.
Please join the rest of us in ignoring the fact abusers.
The Silver Wolverine discusses the switching of the dates for the 2 coin reverse proof set with the 2023 Innovation $1 reverse proof set. I know the Mint changed the date for the sets to the 9th from the 14th, but I didn't know the 2023 Innovation RP $1's were originally scheduled for the 9th. Has this been discussed before?
Check out the comments section.
YouTube Link
No, they are absolutely, positively, 1,000,000% NOT gambling. Yes, large dealers have Advance Release coins in hand, and graded. They can extrapolate from them and know what their 70 grade through rate will be on the regular coins, and are putting them on pre-sale and pricing them accordingly.
If this were not the case, what would account for so many dealers suddenly having such an urge to gamble? And what would account for the aggressive pricing? Trust me, this did not exist before the Advance Release program went into effect.
There is no gamble here. Dealers just don't need to gamble on new issues. They can, and do, make money, not matter how good or bad grading turns out to be.
It would make no sense to price anything so aggressively, and risk getting burned, just to make an early sale. That's why it never happened before. Early pre-sales were always priced high enough to guarantee dealers profits no matter poorly new issues graded. They don't do it now because they KNOW what grading is going to look like. They have an early view via the Advance Release program.
You will see in a few weeks. You are wrong about this, and past history with RPs is irrelevant here. How do I know? By the pricing!
And they won't until at least 11/9. But the pricing tells the story.
I don't have a crystal ball here. I just have price patterns from the first two releases this year. And now pre-release pricing from reputable, volume dealers for this set.
I was right about the $600+ pre-sales a few weeks ago, and I'm right about this. You can lecture me about "facts" for a few weeks, and then disappear or falsely accuse me of selectively reading your posts when I turn out to be right about this as well.
The pre-release pricing is a "fact," and I am drawing a reasonable conclusion from it. And you will argue with me, because that's what you do. And you won't circle back and give credit where it is due, when I turn out to have been on to something because that's not something you do.
You can get dual coin holders at PCGS. You have to pay for oversized holder per pair and indicate on submittal that you want a pair in the holder.
It's been a while since the Subscriptions were still available. Is it safe to say all subscriptions are now filled?
Any idea as to what the percentage of subscriptions is to total sales?
They actually were available a few days ago. They seem to come and go at random, so if anyone is interested, it's worth checking frequently.
As far as subscriptions to total sales, that's a wiggly number. They are supposedly holding back 10% for the on sale date, but we don't know whether or not that includes sales at the Mint's retail outlets, or at the shows (FUN, ANA and now Whitman). There is also supposed to be a 5-10% (not sure of the exact %) set aside for Advance Release, and then there's whatever they allow the Big Boys to buy in bulk. So, there's no way to know exactly what the subscription number is, other than it's something less than 200K. Probably a lot less.
Bottom line -- they keep going unavailable as a subscription, and the mintage is below sales levels for every other Morgan and Peace Dollar sold this year. They are absolutely, positively going to sell out. They are also NOT going to be home runs for flippers, because you can easily buy FDOI RP 70s at less than 2x issue price, and because, at 250K, there is not going to be a ton of unsatisfied organic demand.
There are absolutely No two coin Reverse Proofs sets available to anyone as yet…
Like it or not private and back door deals occur everywhere all the time.
This is America. Land of the free and
Home of the Capitalist.
The big boys in bulk are the advanced release. Other bulk buyers are not allowed to place orders until the HHL is lifted.
Absolutely wrong. Advance Release is a special, separate thing. The Mint sells them at a premium, the grading services charge a premium for the designation, and people chasing it pay a premium as well.
Separate and distinct from the bulk purchase program, which comes with discounts, but not shipping prior to the on-sale date. Your failure to under this distinction is why you don't understand how large dealers preselling large quantities of new issues at aggressive prices are not actually gamblers, like the folks buying VBs.
Facts. For a guy who does so much lecturing, you really don't know nearly as much as you seem to think.
Sure there aren't.
From the Westminster Mint website:
"The Advanced Release designation signifies that a particular coin was among a small group of coins, the absolute first to be released from the United States Mint before the coins were offered to collectors and the general public online. The Advance Release designation was introduced in 2021 and is only available on a select number of coin series. Advance Release coins are certified and graded ahead of coins designated as First Day of Issue and have tiny certified populations."
From the Texas Bullion Exchange:
"NGC offers the Advance Releases designation for select coins purchased by U.S. Mint-approved designated coin dealers before the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale. Not all Mint products will be offered through this program, and no more than 10 percent of the total mintage limit will be distributed under this program.
To qualify for Advance Releases, coins must be purchased by one of the designated coin vendors prior to the publicly posted first day that a mint makes a new coin issue available for sale and must be received by NGC or an NGC-approved depository within one week of their ship date. NGC will require that the submitter provide adequate evidence (including purchase receipts) to demonstrate the date when the coins were purchased and shipped.
The Advance Releases designation is made available only to select submitters of bulk quantities of qualifying coins. An advance request is required, and there is generally a higher grading fee for the specific designation verification and attribution.
Advance Releases are listed separately in the NGC Census. If any coins have been graded with the Advance Releases designation, they will appear when the variety symbol beneath a non-designated issue is clicked.
But while all those things are true, collectors have found themselves in a state of confusion surrounding this new Advance Releases designation. Let us break it down.
The United States Mint finally released a statement about the story behind the new designation. However, they have no ties to NGC’s creation of the new collecting experience. So how did it come to be? As we already know, the existing Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program (NBPP) allows for licensed, full-time coin dealers to purchase numismatic products directly from the US Mint. This includes annual sets like the Proof Set, Silver Proof Set, and Uncirculated Coin Set, in addition to American Silver & Gold Eagle products.
While the Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program is a well-established program, it opened the door for the U.S. Mint to create a new program called the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program (ABBP). This system allows those qualifying bulk purchasers to order a limited number of numismatic Mint products prior to their official release date. Stipulations include being an active member of the existing Bulk Program, having a two-year consecutive revenue average of at least $500,000 a year, and compliance with the Mint’s returns policy. Not all numismatic products are offered through this new elite program. The Authorized Bulk dealers who qualify for this program must pick up their products at the US Mint’s fulfillment center three days prior to the official release date.
The select dealers that are able to take advantage of the new designation are sitting on extremely low-populated coins. More so than any other designation before it, this new Advance Releases designation sits in its own pocket within the industry."
Any more questions, @jmlanzaf? Facts. 🤣
BST references available on request
There are absolutely No two coin Reverse Proofs sets available to anyone as yet…
The key is the word "yet" . As of "YET" The United States Mint has not released any of the two coin Reverse Proof sets...
raise your hand if you think you're right
The quote from the TBE says 3 days prior to the release date. This matches the 03/19/21 Mint press release about the ABPP.
Has this timing changed? If so, do you have insight into what the timing is now?
Edit #1 - corrected a typo in the Mint press release date.
Edit #2 - just sent an e-mail to the Mint proper, and asked about this. If they respond, I will post the info in this thread.
This can be summed up by what everyone knows for a fact. There are many, many, many coins in 70 slabs that are not a 70. I have seen more smudged , banged and scratched coins in 70 slabs than should be allowed.
Sold Sep 26, 2023Sold Item
2023-S MORGAN & PEACE DOLLAR 2 COIN REVERSE PROOF SET FDI NGC PF70 - PRESALE !!Opens in a new window or tab
$561.002 bidsFree shippingView similar active items
Earliest example of presale I could find on Ebay. Do you really think the coins left the mint by SEPTEMBER 26, 2023? Do you really think they were already graded by NGC at some point before SEPTEMBER 26, 2023? And, were returned to the seller, to have an idea of the grading pattern? As Uncle Joe would say: Come on, Man!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166348461182?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=lABWo8URTAO&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=h3H4Ds3BQc-&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
I cant bring myself to read through all the arguments so will ask even if answer is buried prior.
Are there current plans to for the reverse proof to be issued 2024?
Whenever I see this I laugh, just had to copy it here...
That's what I said. NO OTHER BULK BUYERS OTHER THAN the advance release people are allowed to place orders over the HHL until it's lifted.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the only prior sales are the advance release bulk buyers and NO OTHERS . You turned them into 2 groups so you would be double counting the advanced sales. THE ONLY people allowed to place prior orders are the ARPP people NOT the other bulk buyers.
You just repeated everything I said. Thank you.
But you will note that the FACTS you posted - thanks for that - indicate that COuNTER to your prior assertions: 1. Only ARBP can place prior orders and 2. They don't have the coins in hand yet.
Thank you for correcting your prior misinformation and for taking responsibilty for your mistake. It is greatly appreciated and marks a turning point in your relationship to the forum.
This from a guy who brags about never being in jail.🙄
So far, so good.
Although I did edit the comment out after rethinking it. But thank you for preserving it for eternity quoting it.
My pleasure!😎🤣😂
A real buddy would have edited it when I edited it.
A real buddy wouldn't have called me Mother and snubbed my advice when I was trying to help you before you got to this point or mocked me for being put in jail.
I owe you nothing....
Try putting those 2 members on ignore. It shortens the threads they comment on 10 fold!😉
Forum friends, please stop the bickering.....you've spoken your peace.
20 days and counting.............................
100% correct. I’ve checked at the most random of times and it’s hit or miss. Me thinks the computers auto adjust stock level availability based on cancellations of subscriptions. I mean, I hope they do and the mint isn’t as antiquated as the IRS’s tech capabilities….
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Great advice. Took a few steps to figure out process but looking good now.
Agreed. I have read many times during the past few months how many members keep adjusting their subscription amounts mostly downward and the next day they magically appear as available.😉
but then they go back to unavailable
does anyone care that I currently have 6 and will be taking it down to 2....
wherefore?
1) The mint makes up to 10% of the mintage available to the ABPP. However, the ABPP pulled just under 5% of the mintage for the uncs and proof, respectively.
2) The mint reserves at least 10% of the mintage for release day online sales.
3) The mint pulled an extra amount of the mintage (undetermined) for on site sales at the shows aligning with the release day, and for mint retail shop sales.
4) It is possible that the RP subscriptions amount to at least 75% of the mintage, but not more than 80%. This is conjecture on my part, given that the specific percentage of the mintage of the RP falling into 1, 2, & 3 above is unknown. And, it is assuming that there will not be as large a reduction of subscription in the final days prior to release as, say, the unc demonstrated. However, this conjecture is based on careful study of the unc and proof releases.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Very classy. Your numerous posts like the one quoted above ensure that no one, either me or anyone else, has any shot at stripping you of whatever well-deserved forum titles you might hold.