CAC, PQ...Who Cares?
pmh1nic
Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭✭✭
The thread about the new PQ company had me asking the question, what percentage of the collecting population really cares about having a sticker on the slab? Connected to that question is the question, where does pricing come into play with respect to the importance of having or not having a sticker on the slab.
I don't buy anything rare or expensive. I realize "expensive" is a relative thing but at the extremes we can agree the potential importance of a sticker on a $100 coin pales in comparison to the importance of one on a $100K coin. For me the most important aspect of having a coin that has been seen by one of the major grading companies is authentication and identifying not so obvious flaws. There is not enough difference in the pricing based on one point higher lower to have a meaningful impact when it comes time to sell. On a $100 coin another $10 + or - isn't going to inflict any pain.
So what are your thoughts? Is the sticker issue and issue that 10% of the collecting population is concerned with and/or is there some dollar value that drives making having a sticker a critical factor in buying a coin?
Comments
I believe it’s the latter, based on the dollar value. I fully agree on a $100 coin it makes absolutely no difference.
I also believe (and here’s where the disagreement begins) that on coins above a certain value, as a generalization, coins with CAC’s sell for more than coins without CAC’s in the same grades with similar eye appeal. And that pricing differential is usually even greater on gold coins, since there’s a lower percentage of gold coins that merit CAC’s!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Cac sticketed coins sell for more money.
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And away we go..................................................................................
Sticker madness.
I read it as profit madness...
peacockcoins
The PCGS+CAC Registry Set requires CAC to add a coin.
I read it as spending $16 now to help get “fair value” and an easier sale when that time comes, either by the collector, or their heirs! Not madness, but good sense, recognizing how the market works in real life, like it or not!
Say what you want, but the above critics have not provided a single statement disproving the claims I made in my initial reply above about two hours ago. All I read is name calling.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
There is a new PO company coming besides CAC? Who is it? Who owns it...
I don’t buy many expensive coins, either, and my most expensive ones don’t have stickers (no reason, they were either bought before stickers, aren’t graded, or I have no idea if they’ve been sent in).
The ones that do are great and the sticker honestly adds a little joy to my ownership, just like happens with some of my slabs. Since I buy online a lot now (thanks geography and COVID!) a sticker definitely provides confidence in what I’m looking at since the grader and CAC, maybe JA himself, had it in hand. Coins without a sticker do probably get slightly lower bids from me since I’m using only my ability to judge a picture (sometimes on a phone screen).
To your question about $$ limits requiring a sticker, I haven’t assigned one, but if my budget increases significantly in the next few years, I might, but probably not.
Not I. I buy the coin only- sticker, grader, etc., non-withstanding.
I thought it was silly enough with CAC, now it is getting ridiculous.
Some have replied regarding the dollar issue. Any thoughts on number of collectors “playing” in the high value coin market, say $5,000 and up. Those that are dealers will probably have a better feel for this. I’m not in that group but I know we are blessed to have some folks on the forum (they are generous enough to photos and stories about the coins). Are these the collecting 1%, 5%, 10% and the other 90% aren’t involved in collecting coins where stickers are important?
This is not true. If you're in the group of buyers for whom a $100 coin is a stretch, say three months of a coin budget, and we do have collectors like that here, then there is a huge difference between "settling" for a $90 coin and going big for one that is $110. These people largely collect from circulation, but occasionally want to get something special.
I suspect that most of us don't buy anything "expensive", or rarely. I'll bet that most of us would prefer to buy one coin per month rather than save our coin budget for a year to buy one very special coin. It doesn't matter if we are saving up to buy a common date MS 65 Morgan or a MS 65 1921-S Walking Liberty. If we're talking that "special" coin, I think 10% is huge.
I'm not about to tell anyone they're collecting the wrong way because they don't have my budget, or my definition of what makes a coin "expensive". I will tell people they are collecting the wrong way if they do something like go to estate sales and tell widows that coins are worth less if they are in lower grades, so they can only pay $19 for their Saints. But that's a whole other topic.
Yes, they do. There's a market in CAC sticker coins.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
If I were a seller of coins (dealer or casual), I would seek out CAC stickers... They bring value in today's market. As a pure collector, I buy the coin without regard to stickers or labels. Cheers, RickO
What is it about PCGS that they just can't seem to be able to grade gold properly.
I know I seem to have the same problem.
My Saint Set
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
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Over/under this thread lasts the day?
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I think CAC is very worthwhile to collectors with some expertise but not really expert grading skills. It’s easy to miss a slight rub, pvc spot or something else. Great insurance for buying expensive coins to have the best graders in the country verifying your potential purchases.
I'm starting a company that after you send the coin to CAC for the sticker, it grades whether it thinks the coin is of slightly higher or lower quality than what the sticker implies and will draw either a plus or minus sign in gold ink on top of the CAC sticker. Taking investments in increments of $10000 if anyone wants in.
I recognize the “tongue in cheek”, and appreciate the humor. But to address your point seriously, for those reading this thread that may not know, PCGS has no problem at all accurately grading gold. In my opinion, they do an EXCELLENT job!
1. As you and most readers of this thread know, coins in a PCGS grade are divided into roughly three equal parts - the top third in the grade are “A” coins, followed by “B” and then by “C” coins. CAC will apply their sticker to A and B coins, but not C coins, subject to #2 below:
2. Apparently, CAC uses a different standard than PCGS (and NGC) when it comes to “surface issues” - how a coins surface has been treated in the past. That’s ok, but that’s the main reason why gold coins get a low percentage of CAC’s, not #1 above.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
CAC factors into my collecting goals. For new additions, typically seated coins, the CAC sticker is an important authentication of a coin's originality/grade/desirability. CAC will be important when the coins are sold, most likely by my heirs who do not have a strong interest in coins and collecting, and will aid in recovery of the full value of my estate/their bequeath. For upgrades to my WLH set, the presence of CAC is a verification that the upgrade is strong for its grade. My understanding is that CAC is highly valuable insurance in the gold coin market, where doctoring is more prevalent. Finally, I do have some CAC coins that are in the low three figure range - in these instances CAC is not so important financially, but remains important in its authentication of a coin's originality/grade/desirability.
<<< I do have some CAC coins that are in the low three figure range - in these instances CAC is not so important financially, but remains important in its authentication of a coin's originality/grade/desirability.>>>
The only thing it's important for is the cac stockholders.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
But if you did, would you care then? Let's say you saved up and bought a dream coin for $10K. Would you want a CAC sticker on that coin?
I can see both points.
To me, it is a little hard to understand the evolution of collecting, though. Somewhere along the line it went from caring about the coin, to caring about the grade, to caring about which TPG slabbed it, to caring about which generation slab it was in, to what special label it had, and finally the sticker on said slab.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Surface issues?
(for others reading this)
I think I can do a lot better than that.
PCGS breakdown... (as stated by PCGS)
60% Surface preservation
15% Strike
15% Luser
10% eye appeal
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
My Saint Set
There is a seller on eBay with the handle veryPQ. His name escapes me, but I believe he is a prominent dealer and did put PQ stickers on slabs. And he's not a new company; been doing that for awhile now. One difference is that you can call JA at CAC and discuss the grade with him. Try doing that at PCGS or NGC.
Barry Stuppler.
I'd rather have a PQ than a CAC.
Barry & I are a lot closer on grading saints.
My Saint Set
I personally have no interest in stickers. I can recognize a premium piece myself, and that’s good enough for me.
Dave
We never stopped caring about the coin. There are varying reasons to care (or not) about all those other things.
I think most collectors including myself would rather have a CAC on their coin.
You might be the best grader in the world but until your reputation surpasses that of JA and you have your own company I’ll stick with JA’s opinion.
High qualified individuals possessing widely accepted expert credentials have had an influence on markets since the beginning of time.
I have no interest in stickers.
I will match my grading abilities against anyone's including JA . I might list common year MS64 Saints for $3000 on E-Bay if I believe it warrants.
I haven't sold any but that's only because the world hasn't warmed up to how unique my grading skills are. It's early, but, I am thinking about adding my granddaughter's gold stars to the slab after I grade a coin.
I am so confident in my ability I am toying with the idea of removing the green sticker from my coins so as not to distract from the coins I offer. Will they leave sticker residue and damage the slab?
In the meantime, in between my E-Bay sales I need to work a full job in order to buy coins.
AS far as PQ goes, I would consider it very important if I could see the coin. Usually, the coins are too small for my eyesight so I use two magnifying glasses.
IMO, it's an "insurance" issue. None of us here know the future. But it's very unlikely that a sticker will decrease the value/price/desirability of a coin.
Sure, insurance costs some money. Having NO insurance can cost LOTS more.
And, like insurance, it's a decision ....usually.... based on real or imagined risk.
Buy the coin not the sticker.
I have on occasion talked with JA about why a certain PCGS/NGC coin did not CAC. I learned what he is looking for which was a great education for me. I have heard the name Barry Stuppler , but never spoken to him. I think the extra set of eyes after grading is helpful.
@winesteven I have some that I know would sticker for sure. Maybe someday I will send those ones in, but for most of my coins they don't need the extra expense of $16 PLUS shipping and insurance which can get quite expensive in itself. If they were BIG money coins that would be different. For lesser value coins the extra expense would eat up any profit that could be gained.
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Gold coinage + CAC+ PCGS means top dollar. Try bidding on those coins. Be prepared to spend some money.
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$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Think about it from a dealers perspective, if everyone has a 21 peace dollar on their table why should you buy mine? Because mine is PQ, it will cost more too now that you mention it. CAC is a dealer first and foremost and PCGS was started by dealers to facilitate sight unseen transactions.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
While we have had this discussion a zillion times before, I would say CAC matters most in a certain range. Nobody cares about it for $100 coins. Nobody cares about it for $100k+ coins either because the people buying those are spending a great deal of time deciding whether it's something they want. I would say that there is a sweet spot for CAC. Guessing, I would put it somewhere between $500 and $15k. Have never bought anything at the top end of that, but at the bottom end it does matter to me. If I'm going to spend $500 on something, having JA's seal of approval on it makes me more confident that it is graded accurately and will retain money when it's resell time.
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Going back to the OP question regarding what makes "the sticker issue" critical for some I have a few thoughts.
1) it definitely depends on the series and value of the coin. I tend to collect gold coins that cost a significant amount of money and having JA's review of the coin is very important to me. I wont repeat what has been said above but to have a solid graded coin that has not been messed with is a priorty for me. Also, over time I have found that CAC gold coins (gold coins not gold stickers) have a certain look that I prefer.
2) Some people focus on the sticker. I think that is a bit of a red herring. Collectors who prefer CAC are not buying a sticker---they value the judgment of a company with not only a world class numismatist but also a decade plus of results to review. With all the talk of gradeflation, that has never been an issue at CAC. Maybe that reason alone will have collectors desiring CAC approval. Coins with a population of less than 5 several years ago tend to still be below 5 now.
3) One last observation, I generally find CAC enthusiasts to be upbeat and optimistic about the hobby. Those who tend to bash CAC and collectors who prefer CAC coins often seem to be bitter or pessimistic about the hobby in my opinion. I have my theories why.
PCGS was started by dealers to facilitate sight unseen transactions.
this is true, but I would ask how has that worked out?? it hasn't rendered most coins to commodity status. the coin still needs to be seen in almost every case to complete ANY transaction. it is ironic that CAC in a strange way hopes to achieve the same goal: give dealers/collectors confidence so that they buy sight unseen.
Economically this makes more sense for more expensive cost because if the coin is stickered you will cover the cost of submission. If the coin doesn't sticker you've added almost nothing to the cost of the coin percentage wise. With a less expensive coin you're taking the chance it may not sticker and if it's a $100 coin you're now into it for $120+ (cost of service, postage, insurance, etc.) or another 20%. On a $1000 coin it's another 2% and on a $10K coin it's another 0.2%.
Considering you only get charged $16 for the coins that pass, and the round trip shipping gets divided among the coins in the shipment, I’m surprised to learn that those low expenses per coin would eat up the increased value of the stickered coins! I guess that means the increase in market value of the coins that sticker would only be about $19 or so per coin. I was under the impression, apparently incorrectly, that the increase in actual sales prices for mid-level 3 figure coins with CAC’s would be at least that if not more, and for coins in the upper three figures, and coins of higher value, the increase much greater.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
While I will never make an argument that it pays to submit $100 coins to CAC (or even to get graded), it sounds like you’re ignoring that for coins submitted as a “Collector” submitter you don’t get charged any $16 fee for coins that don’t get stickered. So the real cost is the round trip shipping, plus $16 for each coin that gets a sticker.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
When I think of the "truth" regarding the need for CAC on expensive coins I line from Ted Lasso comes to mind:
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off."
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