I agree, that second consensus on a grade is especially important as the value of coins increases and/or the premium between grades increases.
.
And even on a $30 coin if your goal is to learn about grading and what is quality so that you can make better choices and maximize the quality of a collection at any price point, (changed my mind to not comment again ). 99.9% of us will greatly benefit from CAC's opinion at any price point, $30 to zillions. I can name maybe a dozen or so on these boards and in the field that probably don't need CAC's opinion, but most of them have seen and evaluated 100,000's of coins. Have you?
As I have heard it said here, the people that hit hard on CAC and try to justify against submitting (at any price point, even $30), are likely the ones that need their evaluations the most.........
Does CAC provide a detail assessment of the coins they sticker or decide not to sticker?
After some checking I found out that they don't provide any explanation for why a coin submitted received or did not receive a sticker. So you're saying just seeing the sticker (green or gold) and comparing that coin to others that didn't receive a sticker educated you on the technical aspects that resulted in the yea or nay decision on a particular coin with respect to strike, luster, wear, rub, toning, size/location of marks, etc. And that's after comparing the results of how many coins?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think CAC offers a very valuable service, and collectors and dealers alike can learn a lot from CAC. CAC has been generous with its time to collectors, and a lot can be learned from the submission process especially with JA’s notes. With that said, I think it is dangerous for one person’s opinion to matter to the exclusion of all others and everything else as it does for a number of collectors and dealers.
I also think it is absurd that CAC is treated as a grading service when it is not and was never intended to be so. Low end but accurately graded for the coins that correctly fail to sticker are treated as problem coins and numismatic lepers. In no sane universe should a 64 B coin be more desirable and sell for more than a problem free 65C coin (assuming eye appeal and all other factors relevant to the coin’s physical attributes are constant). A 65 C is technically superior to a 64 B. While it should not fetch 65 A or 65 B money, logically it would seem that it should sell for more than 64 money.
Also, to the contrary of what you see posted on message boards, a CAC sticker means only that a coin is solid or high end for the coin. It does not mean that the coin is particularly attractive or that it is in any way special. There are some pretty ugly coins with CAC stickers that have the requisite technical attributes that just do pass with bare minimum acceptable eye appeal. Think of common hoard date silver dollars with tobacco juice or turd brown toning. Yet you occasionally come across these on eBay or auction venues for a 30-40% markup and heralded as “PQ.”
Yes CAC definitely not a TPG nor does their opinion trump TPG grade on holder IMO. It disturbs me when players try tout them as such. Seen some really ugly coins w CAC stickers too. Recently read how CDN arrives at their CAC values for the CPG price guide. Liked it and prefer that vs some number Calc by CAC if different.
Proper RCI analysis is a consensus IMV vs just one guy. And then what happens to that material when he no longer a player.
@Cougar1978 said:
Yes CAC definitely not a TPG nor does their opinion trump TPG grade on holder IMO. It disturbs me when players try tout them as such. Seen some really ugly coins w CAC stickers too.
We've ALL seen plenty of ugly high priced coins without CAC stickers too. A CAC sticker does NOT mean the coin has great eye appeal. Let's keep the facts straight. Instead it means in the opinion of CAC the coin is "Solid" for the grade assigned by the TPG (that it's an "A" or a "B" coin, and not a "C" coin), AND that the surfaces have not been messed with!
The real question to be asked - on a high priced coin that does not have a CAC sticker, why is that?
a) Maybe in the opinion of CAC the coin is graded properly, but is a "C" coin (lower part of the range for that grade), or
b) Maybe in the opinion of CAC something was done to the surface of the coin that CAC finds not acceptable, but is OK with the TPG, or
c) Maybe all of the owners of that coin since 2007 have chosen to not submit it to CAC? IMO, if it is indeed a high priced coin, and up for sale, whether via auction or via a dealer or eBay, I doubt this would be the case, unless that seller likes "leaving money on the table"!!!!!!!!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
2. The real question to be asked - on a high priced coin that does not have a CAC sticker, why is that?
I think that is an absolutely valid question in coming to an informed decision as is the plastic or lack there of. There is a difference in simply being cautious, doing further investigation, and/or perhaps seeking another expert opinion versus treating a coin as if it doesn’t exist at all because of the lack of a sticker. There are many that fall into the latter category.
I also do not have a problem with collectors having a preference, but that preference should not be used to exclude coins from consideration unless where talking blast white widgets with thousands of examples available. For example, I too prefer the optics of PCGS slabs and I like the True View service. Most of my coins end up in PCGS plastic (and the vast majority with CAC stickers), but a fair number of them did not start that way.
@cameonut2011 said:
I think CAC offers a very valuable service, and collectors and dealers alike can learn a lot from CAC. CAC has been generous with its time to collectors, and a lot can be learned from the submission process especially with JA’s notes. With that said, I think it is dangerous for one person’s opinion to matter to the exclusion of all others and everything else as it does for a number of collectors and dealers.
I also think it is absurd that CAC is treated as a grading service when it is not and was never intended to be so. Low end but accurately graded for the coins that correctly fail to sticker are treated as problem coins and numismatic lepers. In no sane universe should a 64 B coin be more desirable and sell for more than a problem free 65C coin (assuming eye appeal and all other factors relevant to the coin’s physical attributes are constant). A 65 C is technically superior to a 64 B. While it should not fetch 65 A or 65 B money, logically it would seem that it should sell for more than 64 money.
Also, to the contrary of what you see posted on message boards, a CAC sticker means only that a coin is solid or high end for the coin. It does not mean that the coin is particularly attractive or that it is in any way special. There are some pretty ugly coins with CAC stickers that have the requisite technical attributes that just do pass with bare minimum acceptable eye appeal. Think of common hoard date silver dollars with tobacco juice or turd brown toning. Yet you occasionally come across these on eBay or auction venues for a 30-40% markup and heralded as “PQ.”
A couple of questions:
How often does JA include notes with coins returned to customers?
Why wouldn't a B coin command a higher price than a C coin? The fact that one is considered B and the other a C means there is some discernable difference in the eye appeal (luster, surface preservation, strike, toning, etc.) between the two coins with the B being the more appealing option.
After reading through the responses I see the CAC sticker as the hand raised in the classroom, hey look at me. There may be 50 MS-64 coins laid out on a table and "assuming" all of them have been seen by CAC the ones with the sticker are the attention getters. But if the assumption isn't correct a solid coin at a lower price might be missed.
All of us like coins with exceptional eye appeal. Some are willing or in a better position to pay more for those coins. Each collector has to decide the threshold they are willing to cross to get that extra splash. This isn't a matter of right and wrong but personal preference. I've seen coins at auction that I was interested in that as the auction progressed the bid price exceeded that threshold for me but apparently not for others. Sometimes we say a coin sold for an absurd price. We can give personal reasons for why we thought it was absurd but at that moment in time (might change later) the buyer thought it was a reasonable price to pay.
Is there value in CAC? Yes, more for some than for others.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic , while I agree with most of the comments you've made in this VERY long living post, my understanding is that eye appeal really isn't a direct factor in CAC's judgement as to whether a coin merits the sticker or not. I think it's much simpler - Is the coin solid for the grade, and also in the opinion of CAC, have the surfaces not been messed with to a degree that would keep them from applying the sticker?
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
"After reading through the responses I see the CAC sticker as the hand raised in the classroom, hey look at me. There may be 50 MS-64 coins laid out on a table and "assuming" all of them have been seen by CAC the ones with the sticker are the attention getters. But if the assumption isn't correct a solid coin at a lower price might be missed."
I've been reading this thread throughout its lifetime, but I don't know if I have posted yet. However, this paragraph written just moments ago by @pmh1nic also describes other scenarios that many/most of the members of this forum already accept as logic or fact.
For example, any certified coin sitting alongside its raw brethren typically attracts more attention than the others while any PCGS certified coin sitting within a group coins certified by other TPGs will often receive a closer look. Essentially, how often have we read "that coin should be in a holder..." or "at that price I would need it in a PCGS holder, not the holder it is in..."?
Truly, many of the responses in this thread are merely a matter of what someone wants to argue about or what they have defined for themselves as their marketplace.
Why wouldn't a B coin command a higher price than a C coin? The fact that one is considered B and the other a C means there is some discernable difference in the eye appeal (luster, surface preservation, strike, toning, etc.) between the two coins with the B being the more appealing option.
I said a problem free 65C should not be treated as inferior to a 64B coin. A 65A or 65 B coin would obviously be superior to 65C.
@winesteven said:
I also believe (and here’s where the disagreement begins) that on coins above a certain value, as a generalization, coins with CAC’s sell for more than coins without CAC’s in the same grades with similar eye appeal.
I think this is true at all grade levels and price points except perhaps the “lowball” registry sets.
The fact that a coin of more than a nominal value does not have a sticker makes me wonder:
1. whether the coin is a "C" coin or is it a "A " coin that is actually one grade (or two) below or
2. something was done to the surface of the coin that CAC finds not acceptable, but is OK with the TPG
3. most troubling is if the coin has been messed with, it will never receive a sticker, no matter the grade
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , while I agree with most of the comments you've made in this VERY long living post, my understanding is that eye appeal really isn't a direct factor in CAC's judgement as to whether a coin merits the sticker or not. I think it's much simpler - Is the coin solid for the grade, and also in the opinion of CAC, have the surfaces not been messed with to a degree that would keep them from applying the sticker?
Steve
I kind of, sort of agree but in many of the grades (higher MS especially) eye appeal is mentioned as a key factor. I use the ANA standards even though they aren't strictly followed but eye appeal is "outstanding" or " exceptional" or for a 64 "appealing". It's not until you get to 62 that the coin is said to be "unattractive" and "below average" with respect to eye appeal. I would also think that surface preservation would consist in the presents or lack of luster, hairlines, contact marks, abrasions, etc. and would be closely connected to eye appeal. Can you have a coin with serious surface preservation issues that still has excellent eye appeal?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Why wouldn't a B coin command a higher price than a C coin? The fact that one is considered B and the other a C means there is some discernable difference in the eye appeal (luster, surface preservation, strike, toning, etc.) between the two coins with the B being the more appealing option.
I said a problem free 65C should not be treated as inferior to a 64B coin. A 65A or 65 B coin would obviously be superior to 65C.
Is it easier for a 65C or a 64B to become a 65B?
Quite a few coins have green beaned, upgraded a full point, and then beaned again.
The real question to be asked - on a high priced coin that does not have a CAC sticker, why is that?
a) Maybe in the opinion of CAC the coin is graded properly, but is a "C" coin (lower part of the range for that grade), or
b) Maybe in the opinion of CAC something was done to the surface of the coin that CAC finds not acceptable, but is OK with the TPG,
If you can't tell the difference between an A & C coin then you probably need CAC...or something.
I regularly see GTG attempts that are 2 full grades off so yea...That is a problem. (if you actually collect that type & are not just guessing for fun)
For the rest of us who can grade, CAC talk without a discussion of the actual coin is just irritating.
Slab shots with beans where you can't see the coin at all are meaningless to me. (yes you bought a bean slab...Yippi for you)
Many of us can actually buy/afford a CAC coin but choose not to because we don't agree with how JA grades.
Many of the people who advocate for CAC can't tell you what JA is looking for and use generalities like "original skin" or "messed with", which are nothing words that sound important.
BTW...If I buy a MS65 coin in a MS65 holder at MS65 price, I consider myself to have failed.
The real question to be asked - on a high priced coin that does not have a CAC sticker, why is that?
a) Maybe in the opinion of CAC the coin is graded properly, but is a "C" coin (lower part of the range for that grade), or
b) Maybe in the opinion of CAC something was done to the surface of the coin that CAC finds not acceptable, but is OK with the TPG,
If you can't tell the difference between an A & C coin then you probably need CAC...or something.
I regularly see GTG attempts that are 2 full grades off so yea...That is a problem. (if you actually collect that type & are not just guessing for fun)
For the rest of us who can grade, CAC talk without a discussion of the actual coin is just irritating.
Slab shots with beans where you can't see the coin at all are meaningless to me. (yes you bought a bean slab...Yippi for you)
Many of us can actually buy/afford a CAC coin but choose not to because we don't agree with how JA grades.
Many of the people who advocate for CAC can't tell you what JA is looking for and use generalities like "original skin" or "messed with", which are nothing words that sound important.
BTW...If I buy a MS65 coin in a MS65 holder at MS65 price, I consider myself to have failed.
Based on what I’ve read CAC was created to try and bring more certainty and stability to the market. I think to some extent that is why TPG companies were established. The results haven’t been perfect but it seems that some believe it has been somewhat successful.
Have you every seen a CAC coin in hand that you thought totally missed the mark, an MS-65 that you saw and immediately said “no way”?
Regarding your comment about paying 65 money for an accurately graded 65 coin in a 65 holder, it sounds to me like part of the enjoyment you have in buying is making the deal. I have a brother-in-law like that and it’s free entertainment for me anytime I go shopping with him .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Have you every seen a CAC coin in hand that you thought totally missed the mark, an MS-65 that you saw and immediately said “no way”?
As a preservation/technical grader, that happens all the time.
To complicate things, TPG's grade different date/mint coins in the same series differently & so does JA.
Now throw in someone like me and you could be getting 3 totally different opinions on the same coin.
Regarding your comment about paying 65 money for an accurately graded 65 coin in a 65 holder, it sounds to me like part of the enjoyment you have in buying is making the deal. I have a brother-in-law like that and it’s free entertainment for me anytime I go shopping with him .
I don't generally haggle on price when I find one I like because I've probably been looking a long time for it.
It's like if a supermodel asked me to dinner, the answer is yes and I'll figure out how to pay for it later.
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
Some collectors have done very well with CAC.
As for doing things for the ordinary collector, the ANA is working on a registry set.
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
Some collectors have done very well with CAC.
As for doing things for the ordinary collector, the ANA is working on a registry set.
'Flippers' are not collectors. The only reason they buy a CAC/PQ coin is to make a profit from it. Makes them the same as a dealer. And, as a collector, I am not interested in 'Registry Sets'.
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
Some collectors have done very well with CAC.
As for doing things for the ordinary collector, the ANA is working on a registry set.
'Flippers' are not collectors. The only reason they buy a CAC/PQ coin is to make a profit from it. Makes them the same as a dealer.
Are you saying all the forum members that like CAC here are dealers or flippers?
And, as a collector, I am not interested in 'Registry Sets'.
@Cougar1978 said:
Yes I have moved away from Classic US coins. Time for something different.
@BillJones has mentioned the same thing. What are you focusing on now?
Stuff can buy low sell high on or at least make decent margin.
World slabbed Coins especially Mexico many single digit pops get at real good price so cheap vs US. Double digit pops (total that grade and higher) can get what cost 2 people go out to dinner.
US & World graded currency - getting my better raw currency graded. Last batch many came back single digit pops some top pop - none finer.
Slabbed MS69 -70 US & World mods silver and gold. Win if bullion goes up.
Basically anything competition unlikely have. Might buy Classic US or sticker game stuff if deal is there for me (way below bid). So option to flip wholesale.
Plus material in above find attractive, interesting, never had b4.
@Cougar1978 said:
Yes I have moved away from Classic US coins. Time for something different.
@BillJones has mentioned the same thing. What are you focusing on now?
Stuff can buy low sell high on:
World slabbed Coins especially Mexico many single digit pops get at real good price so cheap vs US. Double digit pops (total that grade and higher) can get what cost 2 people go out to dinner.
US & World graded currency - getting my better raw currency graded. Last batch many came back single digit pops some top pop - none finer.
Slabbed MS69 -70 US & World mods silver and gold. Win if bullion goes up.
Basically anything competition unlikely have. Might buy Classic US or sticker game stuff if deal is there for me (way below bid). So option to flip wholesale.
That's really great to be able to get double digit pops or top pop at good prices and within your budget. Prices are one reason I like tokens and medals. I have a few world slabbed coins and would love to get into them more but recently exonumia have been going through the roof so I need to limit myself.
Basically want to be in control of whatever I am doing. In RCI competition can be brutal, especially US. One has to find an angle that works for them. Plus I have areas of interest and experience in world and currency. Concentrate on what you like, fits your budget / strategy, and offers fun chase.
Early on when first taking tables at shows heavily influenced by 2 friends, top flight people: a vest pocket trader who specialized in world coins and a dealer who specialized in world gold. Later on another friend who deals in USA National Banknotes sparked my interest in those. On US no way could compete with large national local dealer in slabbed coins. Had to go to Teletrade acquire those even come close. He even picked up a few (really nice ones) I picked up off TTR flipped to him at very minimal profit (public either could not afford or would pay retail for most part). But he prob had want list clients for those.
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
“Do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector?” You’ve got to be kidding me? Before the advent of slabbed TBG’s around 1986, the ordinary run of the mill collector was getting screwed in almost every transaction. When buying a coin from a “knowledgeable” dealer, every coin was great and problem free, and while negotiable, was never sold undergrade. When the time came to sell that very same coin, well, “look at that nick, the wear, rub, the luster is muted, the strike is not strong enough, and the grade is much lower than you say it is.” The TPG’s saved collectors ton’s of money, and continue to do so to this day. Thank G-d for the TPG’s!
When CAC started around late 2007 or so, that too was a big help for the average collector who keeps their coins. Everyone makes mistakes (and I’ve made more than my fair share), but the TPG’s would occasionally overgrade a coin. Sure, I can invest the tremendous amount of time to become an expert grader, but I choose to spend my time on other things, yet still partake in this wonderful hobby. Example - I don’t want to take the time to go to medical school so I can self diagnose every medical issue I may have. Instead, I’ll go to my doctor, and let him/her use their knowledge to diagnose the issue. CAC is my doctor. And most importantly, on coins that are indeed properly graded by the TPG’s, as the vast majority are, CAC will help me avoid coins in the lower end of the grade range, as well as coins (especially gold coins) that have had things done to the surfaces that the TPG’s find acceptable, but CAC does not.
Finally, when the time eventually comes to sell my collection (like the vast majority of collectors, I’m not a flipper), whether by me or my heirs, having CAC stickers on my Classic coins will make it so much easier to get fair value. Going back pre 1986, heirs getting fair value at the time of selling was usually just a joke!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
'Flippers' are not collectors. The only reason they buy a CAC/PQ coin is to make a profit from it. Makes them the same as a dealer.
So the only reason 80% of my collection is CAC is to make a profit and flip them? OK, I did not know that, thanks for educating me on why I collect coins.
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
“Ordinary’” collectors need to learn to grade coins themselves.and learn from their own mistakes.
We all started out as ‘ordinary collectors .
Don’t wait for someone to do something for you.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I don't generally haggle on price when I find one I like because I've probably been looking a long time for it.
It's like if a supermodel asked me to dinner, the answer is yes and I'll figure out how to pay for it later.
If a supermodel asked you out to dinner, why isn't she paying?
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers.
Collectors are the bunnies in a world full of cats, dogs, foxes & owls.
Some of us rabbits are just harder to invite to dinner.
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
"Something for the ordinary collector"? How about a service that spots coins that have been doctored, will distinguish low end coins in a slab, allows you to pick the the numismatist brain about a coin sent in, has kept their standards at the same level for over a decade and does not charge if the coin does not receive approval?? Wait---CAC is for the ordinary collector
@AlexinPA said:
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers.
Collectors are the bunnies in a world full of cats, dogs, foxes & owls.
Some of us rabbits are just harder to invite to dinner.
Some of us bunnies can take care of ourselves just fine.
The majority of serious collectors can appreciate a CAC coin... Well, most of them at least.
PQ is subjective. Nobody has a running bid sheet on the term PQ. CAC backs their stickers with cold, hard cash. So CAC is far more important to discerning buyers than PQ.
JA and company do not look at 500 coins a day. It's more likely 200-250 a day from my understanding. Certainly no more than 400 unless they're behind as they probably were after the ANA break, or they get a large group in. Again, this is from my understanding, which is admittedly limited. I understand that they are less busy with stickering coins these days than they used to be ~10 years ago.
Margins (for me) on the CAC coins that I don't keep are excellent even factoring in the costs of CAC. The few times it isn't worth it is when I'm chasing a gold bean and don't get it... And even I know that is folly, but it's fun to do it once in a while. Gambling, if you would, with minimal downside. Any dealer worth their ilk should have a CAC membership, it's a relatively affordable value-add to the business of selling slabbed coins.
What CAC has done in the marketplace is defined the coins that are PQ and made it obvious. While some coins are obvious at arms length and a seconds notice that they are exceptional for the grade, others take some time to really hit. Before the CAC era, you might look at a coin, evaluate it, and find yourself wanting a bit more... Then as you reflect on the coin and look at some other stuff, you realize "Damn, that really was a nice one." Having a CAC sticker on the coin makes it a bit more obvious, and can get you to stop and look at it a little closer, and consider it a little more. Essentially, CAC has narrowed the knowledge gap (moat) between expert dealers and collectors, to the benefit of collectors everywhere.
While dealers will generally ask more for a CAC'ed coin, at the end of the day you don't have to pay it. I rarely buy my coins already beaned, and prefer to make my beans myself, for example. I enjoy the process of pulling together a group of coins that I think are PQ, sending them in, and seeing what shakes out, then cross-referencing my notes with the results and evaluate the deviations from expected outcomes to educate myself.
I joined CAC when I was just a regular collector, but at this point, am far more of a vest dealer than collector, and I still find CAC's value to my education in the hobby/business to be immutable. JA is a great guy to chat with, he is on point and really knows his shit in and out. It's impressive. As long as you approach your results with an open mind and are willing to learn, CAC is a fantastic tool to further your enjoyment of the hobby.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Comments
Does CAC provide a detail assessment of the coins they sticker or decide not to sticker?
After some checking I found out that they don't provide any explanation for why a coin submitted received or did not receive a sticker. So you're saying just seeing the sticker (green or gold) and comparing that coin to others that didn't receive a sticker educated you on the technical aspects that resulted in the yea or nay decision on a particular coin with respect to strike, luster, wear, rub, toning, size/location of marks, etc. And that's after comparing the results of how many coins?
As expected, this thread did not disappoint.
Giving the ole pot a stir eh???
I don't care.
I think CAC offers a very valuable service, and collectors and dealers alike can learn a lot from CAC. CAC has been generous with its time to collectors, and a lot can be learned from the submission process especially with JA’s notes. With that said, I think it is dangerous for one person’s opinion to matter to the exclusion of all others and everything else as it does for a number of collectors and dealers.
I also think it is absurd that CAC is treated as a grading service when it is not and was never intended to be so. Low end but accurately graded for the coins that correctly fail to sticker are treated as problem coins and numismatic lepers. In no sane universe should a 64 B coin be more desirable and sell for more than a problem free 65C coin (assuming eye appeal and all other factors relevant to the coin’s physical attributes are constant). A 65 C is technically superior to a 64 B. While it should not fetch 65 A or 65 B money, logically it would seem that it should sell for more than 64 money.
Also, to the contrary of what you see posted on message boards, a CAC sticker means only that a coin is solid or high end for the coin. It does not mean that the coin is particularly attractive or that it is in any way special. There are some pretty ugly coins with CAC stickers that have the requisite technical attributes that just do pass with bare minimum acceptable eye appeal. Think of common hoard date silver dollars with tobacco juice or turd brown toning. Yet you occasionally come across these on eBay or auction venues for a 30-40% markup and heralded as “PQ.”
I care. 115 coins in my $2.50 set. 114 are PCGS/CAC. Aiming towards 100%.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Yes CAC definitely not a TPG nor does their opinion trump TPG grade on holder IMO. It disturbs me when players try tout them as such. Seen some really ugly coins w CAC stickers too. Recently read how CDN arrives at their CAC values for the CPG price guide. Liked it and prefer that vs some number Calc by CAC if different.
Proper RCI analysis is a consensus IMV vs just one guy. And then what happens to that material when he no longer a player.
Frankly I liked the PQ guys idea better.
a) Maybe in the opinion of CAC the coin is graded properly, but is a "C" coin (lower part of the range for that grade), or
b) Maybe in the opinion of CAC something was done to the surface of the coin that CAC finds not acceptable, but is OK with the TPG, or
c) Maybe all of the owners of that coin since 2007 have chosen to not submit it to CAC? IMO, if it is indeed a high priced coin, and up for sale, whether via auction or via a dealer or eBay, I doubt this would be the case, unless that seller likes "leaving money on the table"!!!!!!!!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Thank you WS blocked u too (ignore button).
Show the coin.
It certainly affects people as it affects prices, but people can respond in different ways.
For some, it’s a reason to pay more for PCGS+CAC coins.
For others, it’s a reason to move away from US coins.
Either way, if you have a significant amount of funds in coins CAC covers, you may care due to the effects on prices when you buy and when you sell.
I think that is an absolutely valid question in coming to an informed decision as is the plastic or lack there of. There is a difference in simply being cautious, doing further investigation, and/or perhaps seeking another expert opinion versus treating a coin as if it doesn’t exist at all because of the lack of a sticker. There are many that fall into the latter category.
I also do not have a problem with collectors having a preference, but that preference should not be used to exclude coins from consideration unless where talking blast white widgets with thousands of examples available. For example, I too prefer the optics of PCGS slabs and I like the True View service. Most of my coins end up in PCGS plastic (and the vast majority with CAC stickers), but a fair number of them did not start that way.
A couple of questions:
How often does JA include notes with coins returned to customers?
Why wouldn't a B coin command a higher price than a C coin? The fact that one is considered B and the other a C means there is some discernable difference in the eye appeal (luster, surface preservation, strike, toning, etc.) between the two coins with the B being the more appealing option.
After reading through the responses I see the CAC sticker as the hand raised in the classroom, hey look at me. There may be 50 MS-64 coins laid out on a table and "assuming" all of them have been seen by CAC the ones with the sticker are the attention getters. But if the assumption isn't correct a solid coin at a lower price might be missed.
All of us like coins with exceptional eye appeal. Some are willing or in a better position to pay more for those coins. Each collector has to decide the threshold they are willing to cross to get that extra splash. This isn't a matter of right and wrong but personal preference. I've seen coins at auction that I was interested in that as the auction progressed the bid price exceeded that threshold for me but apparently not for others. Sometimes we say a coin sold for an absurd price. We can give personal reasons for why we thought it was absurd but at that moment in time (might change later) the buyer thought it was a reasonable price to pay.
Is there value in CAC? Yes, more for some than for others.
@pmh1nic , while I agree with most of the comments you've made in this VERY long living post, my understanding is that eye appeal really isn't a direct factor in CAC's judgement as to whether a coin merits the sticker or not. I think it's much simpler - Is the coin solid for the grade, and also in the opinion of CAC, have the surfaces not been messed with to a degree that would keep them from applying the sticker?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
"After reading through the responses I see the CAC sticker as the hand raised in the classroom, hey look at me. There may be 50 MS-64 coins laid out on a table and "assuming" all of them have been seen by CAC the ones with the sticker are the attention getters. But if the assumption isn't correct a solid coin at a lower price might be missed."
I've been reading this thread throughout its lifetime, but I don't know if I have posted yet. However, this paragraph written just moments ago by @pmh1nic also describes other scenarios that many/most of the members of this forum already accept as logic or fact.
For example, any certified coin sitting alongside its raw brethren typically attracts more attention than the others while any PCGS certified coin sitting within a group coins certified by other TPGs will often receive a closer look. Essentially, how often have we read "that coin should be in a holder..." or "at that price I would need it in a PCGS holder, not the holder it is in..."?
Truly, many of the responses in this thread are merely a matter of what someone wants to argue about or what they have defined for themselves as their marketplace.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I said a problem free 65C should not be treated as inferior to a 64B coin. A 65A or 65 B coin would obviously be superior to 65C.
I think this is true at all grade levels and price points except perhaps the “lowball” registry sets.
The fact that a coin of more than a nominal value does not have a sticker makes me wonder:
1. whether the coin is a "C" coin or is it a "A " coin that is actually one grade (or two) below or
2. something was done to the surface of the coin that CAC finds not acceptable, but is OK with the TPG
3. most troubling is if the coin has been messed with, it will never receive a sticker, no matter the grade
JA 2 1/4 seconds is equal to most people 5 minutes!
JA is the only person on the planet thought highly enough by other fellow graders to be a co-founder and /or founder of PCGS as well as NGC.
He is smart enough to ask other experts when he is unsure of a certain coin.
I kind of, sort of agree but in many of the grades (higher MS especially) eye appeal is mentioned as a key factor. I use the ANA standards even though they aren't strictly followed but eye appeal is "outstanding" or " exceptional" or for a 64 "appealing". It's not until you get to 62 that the coin is said to be "unattractive" and "below average" with respect to eye appeal. I would also think that surface preservation would consist in the presents or lack of luster, hairlines, contact marks, abrasions, etc. and would be closely connected to eye appeal. Can you have a coin with serious surface preservation issues that still has excellent eye appeal?
Still quite a bit of disdain and hostility towards CAC in this thread from seemingly experienced numismatists.
If you do not want to buy CAC coins then don't. If you cannot understand why CAC coins sell for more than non CAC then you ignore the marketplace.
Ignore the marketplace at your own peril.
CAC matters, whether it's one person's standards or a group of people trained to those standards.
Facts are stubborn things.
Is it easier for a 65C or a 64B to become a 65B?
Quite a few coins have green beaned, upgraded a full point, and then beaned again.
I feel like PQ is getting left out of the conversation.
I was excited to see this article about the PQ Crimson Tide Peace Dollar Collection coins.
Yes I have moved away from Classic US coins. Time for something different.
@BillJones has mentioned the same thing. What are you focusing on now?
If you can't tell the difference between an A & C coin then you probably need CAC...or something.
I regularly see GTG attempts that are 2 full grades off so yea...That is a problem. (if you actually collect that type & are not just guessing for fun)
For the rest of us who can grade, CAC talk without a discussion of the actual coin is just irritating.
Slab shots with beans where you can't see the coin at all are meaningless to me. (yes you bought a bean slab...Yippi for you)
Many of us can actually buy/afford a CAC coin but choose not to because we don't agree with how JA grades.
Many of the people who advocate for CAC can't tell you what JA is looking for and use generalities like "original skin" or "messed with", which are nothing words that sound important.
BTW...If I buy a MS65 coin in a MS65 holder at MS65 price, I consider myself to have failed.
My Saint Set
'Quite a few' is a vague term and meaningless. Do you have real numbers? If not, then.........
Based on what I’ve read CAC was created to try and bring more certainty and stability to the market. I think to some extent that is why TPG companies were established. The results haven’t been perfect but it seems that some believe it has been somewhat successful.
Have you every seen a CAC coin in hand that you thought totally missed the mark, an MS-65 that you saw and immediately said “no way”?
Regarding your comment about paying 65 money for an accurately graded 65 coin in a 65 holder, it sounds to me like part of the enjoyment you have in buying is making the deal. I have a brother-in-law like that and it’s free entertainment for me anytime I go shopping with him
.
I don’t keep track but I see the forum posts. Feel free to search the forums.
As a preservation/technical grader, that happens all the time.
To complicate things, TPG's grade different date/mint coins in the same series differently & so does JA.
Now throw in someone like me and you could be getting 3 totally different opinions on the same coin.
I don't generally haggle on price when I find one I like because I've probably been looking a long time for it.
It's like if a supermodel asked me to dinner, the answer is yes and I'll figure out how to pay for it later.
My Saint Set
I have no 'bones to pick' with any outfit but CAC supporters ought to be honest. CAC, PQ, all TPGs - founded by dealers to make profits for dealers. I have often wondered when someone will do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector.
Some collectors have done very well with CAC.
As for doing things for the ordinary collector, the ANA is working on a registry set.
.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
ANA LM
LSCC
EAC
FUN
'Flippers' are not collectors. The only reason they buy a CAC/PQ coin is to make a profit from it. Makes them the same as a dealer. And, as a collector, I am not interested in 'Registry Sets'.
Are you saying all the forum members that like CAC here are dealers or flippers?
Many collectors love Registry Sets, including our own @DLHansen and @AuroraBorealis. @AuroraBorealis just won the toned set award! See more here:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1062254/pcgs-2021-set-registry-awards-toned-coin-showcase-winners#latest
What's wrong with making a profit? Plenty of collectors buy CAC/PQ coins due to the financial benefits associated with owning them.
Just sayin'.
Stuff can buy low sell high on or at least make decent margin.
Basically anything competition unlikely have. Might buy Classic US or sticker game stuff if deal is there for me (way below bid). So option to flip wholesale.
Plus material in above find attractive, interesting, never had b4.
That's really great to be able to get double digit pops or top pop at good prices and within your budget. Prices are one reason I like tokens and medals. I have a few world slabbed coins and would love to get into them more but recently exonumia have been going through the roof so I need to limit myself.
Basically want to be in control of whatever I am doing. In RCI competition can be brutal, especially US. One has to find an angle that works for them. Plus I have areas of interest and experience in world and currency. Concentrate on what you like, fits your budget / strategy, and offers fun chase.
Early on when first taking tables at shows heavily influenced by 2 friends, top flight people: a vest pocket trader who specialized in world coins and a dealer who specialized in world gold. Later on another friend who deals in USA National Banknotes sparked my interest in those. On US no way could compete with large national local dealer in slabbed coins. Had to go to Teletrade acquire those even come close. He even picked up a few (really nice ones) I picked up off TTR flipped to him at very minimal profit (public either could not afford or would pay retail for most part). But he prob had want list clients for those.
“Do something for the ordinary run of the mill collector?” You’ve got to be kidding me? Before the advent of slabbed TBG’s around 1986, the ordinary run of the mill collector was getting screwed in almost every transaction. When buying a coin from a “knowledgeable” dealer, every coin was great and problem free, and while negotiable, was never sold undergrade. When the time came to sell that very same coin, well, “look at that nick, the wear, rub, the luster is muted, the strike is not strong enough, and the grade is much lower than you say it is.” The TPG’s saved collectors ton’s of money, and continue to do so to this day. Thank G-d for the TPG’s!
When CAC started around late 2007 or so, that too was a big help for the average collector who keeps their coins. Everyone makes mistakes (and I’ve made more than my fair share), but the TPG’s would occasionally overgrade a coin. Sure, I can invest the tremendous amount of time to become an expert grader, but I choose to spend my time on other things, yet still partake in this wonderful hobby. Example - I don’t want to take the time to go to medical school so I can self diagnose every medical issue I may have. Instead, I’ll go to my doctor, and let him/her use their knowledge to diagnose the issue. CAC is my doctor. And most importantly, on coins that are indeed properly graded by the TPG’s, as the vast majority are, CAC will help me avoid coins in the lower end of the grade range, as well as coins (especially gold coins) that have had things done to the surfaces that the TPG’s find acceptable, but CAC does not.
Finally, when the time eventually comes to sell my collection (like the vast majority of collectors, I’m not a flipper), whether by me or my heirs, having CAC stickers on my Classic coins will make it so much easier to get fair value. Going back pre 1986, heirs getting fair value at the time of selling was usually just a joke!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
So the only reason 80% of my collection is CAC is to make a profit and flip them? OK, I did not know that, thanks for educating me on why I collect coins.
Best, SH
Most likely long term profits as opposed to a quick short term profit.
“Ordinary’” collectors need to learn to grade coins themselves.and learn from their own mistakes.
We all started out as ‘ordinary collectors .
Don’t wait for someone to do something for you.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Chocolate-filled Saints.
Me too!
peacockcoins
If a supermodel asked you out to dinner, why isn't she paying?
peacockcoins
Collectors are the bunnies in a world full of cats, dogs, foxes & owls.
Some of us rabbits are just harder to invite to dinner.
My Saint Set
Long term profits are okay but short term ones aren't?
"Something for the ordinary collector"? How about a service that spots coins that have been doctored, will distinguish low end coins in a slab, allows you to pick the the numismatist brain about a coin sent in, has kept their standards at the same level for over a decade and does not charge if the coin does not receive approval?? Wait---CAC is for the ordinary collector
Some of us bunnies can take care of ourselves just fine.
peacockcoins
Thoughts....
The majority of serious collectors can appreciate a CAC coin... Well, most of them at least.
PQ is subjective. Nobody has a running bid sheet on the term PQ. CAC backs their stickers with cold, hard cash. So CAC is far more important to discerning buyers than PQ.
JA and company do not look at 500 coins a day. It's more likely 200-250 a day from my understanding. Certainly no more than 400 unless they're behind as they probably were after the ANA break, or they get a large group in. Again, this is from my understanding, which is admittedly limited. I understand that they are less busy with stickering coins these days than they used to be ~10 years ago.
Margins (for me) on the CAC coins that I don't keep are excellent even factoring in the costs of CAC. The few times it isn't worth it is when I'm chasing a gold bean and don't get it... And even I know that is folly, but it's fun to do it once in a while. Gambling, if you would, with minimal downside. Any dealer worth their ilk should have a CAC membership, it's a relatively affordable value-add to the business of selling slabbed coins.
What CAC has done in the marketplace is defined the coins that are PQ and made it obvious. While some coins are obvious at arms length and a seconds notice that they are exceptional for the grade, others take some time to really hit. Before the CAC era, you might look at a coin, evaluate it, and find yourself wanting a bit more... Then as you reflect on the coin and look at some other stuff, you realize "Damn, that really was a nice one." Having a CAC sticker on the coin makes it a bit more obvious, and can get you to stop and look at it a little closer, and consider it a little more. Essentially, CAC has narrowed the knowledge gap (moat) between expert dealers and collectors, to the benefit of collectors everywhere.
While dealers will generally ask more for a CAC'ed coin, at the end of the day you don't have to pay it. I rarely buy my coins already beaned, and prefer to make my beans myself, for example. I enjoy the process of pulling together a group of coins that I think are PQ, sending them in, and seeing what shakes out, then cross-referencing my notes with the results and evaluate the deviations from expected outcomes to educate myself.
I joined CAC when I was just a regular collector, but at this point, am far more of a vest dealer than collector, and I still find CAC's value to my education in the hobby/business to be immutable. JA is a great guy to chat with, he is on point and really knows his shit in and out. It's impressive. As long as you approach your results with an open mind and are willing to learn, CAC is a fantastic tool to further your enjoyment of the hobby.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."