As long as I like the coin and it will sell not concerned. Stickered coins they will have to pay more to get from me as they cost me more. It’s just function of markup for me. CAC coins simply a separate inventory class. About 7 pct of slabbed coins on eBay. No biggie IMO.
If you feel CAC coins worth top dollar great I like that, wb glad retail you some. If they pay the money works for me. I do believe in marking up A coins (based on my evaluation / my basis for PQ) higher vs B. And in many instances got my price on them.
Yes he definitely will not sticker certain material he feels had prior cleaning or surface issues (CAC contest on Coin Talk). But it simply means no sticker and does not invalidate the grading certificate.
@gumby1234 said:
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
If your heirs send them to auction, the auction company can send to CAC.
And not everything is worth sending to CAC. If you have a $100 coin that is worth $110 with CAC, it would be silly to send it in.
@pmh1nic said:
Economically this makes more sense for more expensive cost because if the coin is stickered you will cover the cost of submission. If the coin doesn't sticker you've added almost nothing to the cost of the coin percentage wise. With a less expensive coin you're taking the chance it may not sticker and if it's a $100 coin you're now into it for $120+ (cost of service, postage, insurance, etc.) or another 20%. On a $1000 coin it's another 2% and on a $10K coin it's another 0.2%.
While I will never make an argument that it pays to submit $100 coins to CAC (or even to get graded), it sounds like you’re ignoring that for coins submitted as a “Collector” submitter you don’t get charged any $16 fee for coins that don’t get stickered. So the real cost is the round trip shipping, plus $16 for each coin that gets a sticker.
Is there a cost for CAC membership (I'm unclear on this)?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@keets said: PCGS was started by dealers to facilitate sight unseen transactions.
this is true, but I would ask how has that worked out?? it hasn't rendered most coins to commodity status. the coin still needs to be seen in almost every case to complete ANY transaction. it is ironic that CAC in a strange way hopes to achieve the same goal: give dealers/collectors confidence so that they buy sight unseen.
A lot of dealer to dealer sales go sight unseen. In almost every Heritage auction, I put in tens of thousands of bids without even looking at the pictures. And, yes, I bid higher on the CAC coins.
This is exactly the argument that was raging 25 years ago over slabs. Today, there's a chorus on here that tells people not to buy raw coins, especially keys.
Apparently, we learned nothing from 25 years ago.
I don't need a slab to buy a coin. I don't need a sticker to buy a coin. I don't need an engineering inspection to buy a house. I don't need an automotive inspection. I don't need a property survey. I don't need a notarized signature. I don't need an independent insurance appraisal. There's also a reason why I would pay for each of those things and a market value associated with it.
Return to thumping your chests and repeating the same argument written in 100 CAC threads. Maybe in the future we could save time by just linking to those prior comments and threads.
@pmh1nic said:
Economically this makes more sense for more expensive cost because if the coin is stickered you will cover the cost of submission. If the coin doesn't sticker you've added almost nothing to the cost of the coin percentage wise. With a less expensive coin you're taking the chance it may not sticker and if it's a $100 coin you're now into it for $120+ (cost of service, postage, insurance, etc.) or another 20%. On a $1000 coin it's another 2% and on a $10K coin it's another 0.2%.
While I will never make an argument that it pays to submit $100 coins to CAC (or even to get graded), it sounds like you’re ignoring that for coins submitted as a “Collector” submitter you don’t get charged any $16 fee for coins that don’t get stickered. So the real cost is the round trip shipping, plus $16 for each coin that gets a sticker.
Is there a cost for CAC membership (I'm unclear on this)?
You assume there is no correlation between coins that get CAC approval and those that dont.
Also you assume that the buyer can identify the proper grade, whether a coin has been messed with, etc. You also assume that the buyer has looked at thousands of similar coins and therefore has a basis to compare whether the coin he is reviewing is solid or not for the grade.
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@jmlanzaf said:
This is exactly the argument that was raging 25 years ago over slabs. Today, there's a chorus on here that tells people not to buy raw coins, especially keys.
Apparently, we learned nothing from 25 years ago.
I don't need a slab to buy a coin. I don't need a sticker to buy a coin. I don't need an engineering inspection to buy a house. I don't need an automotive inspection. I don't need a property survey. I don't need a notarized signature. I don't need an independent insurance appraisal. There's also a reason why I would pay for each of those things and a market value associated with it.
Return to thumping your chests and repeating the same argument written in 100 CAC threads. Maybe in the future we could save time by just linking to those prior comments and threads.
These treads are more for folks that weren't here 25 years ago and haven't heard the arguments in the past. While there is value in searching subjects that can get to be a convoluted way to get information. Also, opinions change over time. As for folks that get frustrated with having the discussion again, no one is forcing anyone to contribute but based on the number of responses it appears to be of some interest to some.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think another aspect of CAC approval that is overlooked is risk especially for expensive coins.
Let's say you believe you dont need a sticker to tell you that a coin is nice for the grade. If you are right---you probably got a nice coin ar a fair price. If you are wrong---you bought a low end coin for the grade or maybe even a over graded coin. Or maybe a coin that has been messed with. If you are an expert in your series, then hopefully you can avoid these pitfalls. However, most collectors do not have the time to be experts. Those collectors basically have little upside buying expensive non CAC coins but lots of downside.
This is a different kind of chest thumping that actually makes me frown at our hosts for starting to support them. I consider it double dipping or another way to put it double taxation! If the grading companies are doing there job there is no need for a Quack sticker. If there is a need for a Quack sticker then the grading companies should buy the coins that won't Quack and reholder them or take them off the market!
@jmlanzaf said:
This is exactly the argument that was raging 25 years ago over slabs. Today, there's a chorus on here that tells people not to buy raw coins, especially keys.
Apparently, we learned nothing from 25 years ago.
I don't need a slab to buy a coin. I don't need a sticker to buy a coin. I don't need an engineering inspection to buy a house. I don't need an automotive inspection. I don't need a property survey. I don't need a notarized signature. I don't need an independent insurance appraisal. There's also a reason why I would pay for each of those things and a market value associated with it.
Return to thumping your chests and repeating the same argument written in 100 CAC threads. Maybe in the future we could save time by just linking to those prior comments and threads.
@gumby1234 said:
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@amwldcoin said:
Maybe we should all get together and have the CAC choir compete with the non CAC crowd and play football or something against each other!
No need for the game. The CAC crowd has clearly already won. The difference in value for CAC coins has been proven by auction results, separate price guides, and registry for CAC coins. Anyone looking at back at CAC alarmist posts 5 years ago would have to now objectively declare they were wrong.
@jmlanzaf said:
If your heirs send them to auction, the auction company can send to CAC.
And not everything is worth sending to CAC. If you have a $100 coin that is worth $110 with CAC, it would be silly to send it in.
As long as your heirs really know to send the coins to one of the major auction houses. How often do we read on this forum of heirs bringing coins elsewhere, including to the nearest gold/silver shop just around the corner from where they live?
As I mentioned in a reply above, I would never suggest sending a $100 coin in to CAC (or even to have it graded).
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@amwldcoin said:
Maybe we should all get together and have the CAC choir compete with the non CAC crowd and play football or something against each other!
No need for the game. The CAC crowd has clearly already won. The difference in value for CAC coins has been proven by auction results, separate price guides, and registry for CAC coins. Anyone looking at back at CAC alarmist posts 5 years ago would have to now objectively declare they were wrong.
This is very true. CAC coins make up a separate segment of the market now. I can't see it changing anytime soon unless there is more separation...
@Gazes said:
I think another aspect of CAC approval that is overlooked is risk especially for expensive coins.
Let's say you believe you dont need a sticker to tell you that a coin is nice for the grade. If you are right---you probably got a nice coin ar a fair price. If you are wrong---you bought a low end coin for the grade or maybe even a over graded coin. Or maybe a coin that has been messed with. If you are an expert in your series, then hopefully you can avoid these pitfalls. However, most collectors do not have the time to be experts. Those collectors basically have little upside buying expensive non CAC coins but lots of downside.
This gets back to a comment I made about the buying and selling experience. When I buy the coin it's rock solid for the grade on the PCGS label. When I go to sell the coin becomes the rare instance where PCGS got it wrong...lol.
An expensive experiment would be to take 100 stickered coins, crack them out and send the raw coins to PCGS to see what comes back. What percentage do you think would come back the same grade, a grade higher, a grade lower or details grade.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I consider all sticker companies parasites to our hobby. The market is also being manipulated. I know someone that had a tough Seated Dollar in better grade that had a 0 POP at CAC. The CAC bid dropped $20,000 immediately after he got it CAC'd. I find it funny I bought my 01-S quarter for $4-5000 under CAC bid! Why didn't the dealer who bid that bid on mine since it's the only 1? And according to @Crypto 's comments about mine it blows many's reasoning for the need for a sticker!
@amwldcoin said:
Maybe we should all get together and have the CAC choir compete with the non CAC crowd and play football or something against each other!
No need for the game. The CAC crowd has clearly already won. The difference in value for CAC coins has been proven by auction results, separate price guides, and registry for CAC coins. Anyone looking at back at CAC alarmist posts 5 years ago would have to now objectively declare they were wrong.
@gumby1234 said:
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
Dealers pay a fee for every coin, collectors pay only for stickered coins. Dealers are expected to submit far more than collectors. I don’t think JA intended CAC to be a major money maker. The guy has plenty of money-making ideas and experience.
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
Yes, you are missing something. They DON’T make much of their profit by stickering coins. They make the majority of their profits by making a market in CAC coins, buying and selling, almost all wholesale to and from dealers.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
Yes, you are missing something. They DON’T make much of their profit by stickering coins. They make the majority of their profits by making a market in CAC coins, buying and selling, almost all wholesale to and from dealers.
Steve
Thanks Steve. I'm totally unaware of the ins and outs of that market.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
@gumby1234 said:
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
Dealers pay a fee for every coin, collectors pay only for stickered coins. Dealers are expected to submit far more than collectors. I don’t think JA intended CAC to be a major money maker. The guy has plenty of money-making ideas and experience.
I'm getting an education. I see that membership is closed so it appears the volume of business being done with current members must be good.
Since membership is closed does this mean an individual would have to bring the coin to a member dealer to access this service?
Is it one person (John Albanese) who makes the call on a coin or are there graders he has authorized to make the call?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
No. When @readyaimfire was talking about the weight that PCGS gives to Surface Preservation in assigning a grade (as does CAC), he and you are referring to the marks and other distractions. Separately, PCGS also takes cleaning into account (as does CAC) the amount and type of “cleaning” a coin has undergone. If PCGS determines it is too much, they’ll put a coin in a “Details” holder. My next comment is based on my understanding and I may be wrong, but I believe this is where the difference lies. PCGS may feel the level or type of cleaning a coin has undergone is ok to straight grade that coin, where CAC believes, in their opinion, that what was done to a coin previously to “help” it, is too much to merit a CAC sticker.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@gumby1234 said:
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
They don't. They make their money on the retail side
@GRANDAM said:
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
@keets said: PCGS was started by dealers to facilitate sight unseen transactions.
this is true, but I would ask how has that worked out?? it hasn't rendered most coins to commodity status. the coin still needs to be seen in almost every case to complete ANY transaction. it is ironic that CAC in a strange way hopes to achieve the same goal: give dealers/collectors confidence so that they buy sight unseen.
A lot of dealer to dealer sales go sight unseen. In almost every Heritage auction, I put in tens of thousands of bids without even looking at the pictures. And, yes, I bid higher on the CAC coins.
Are there even 10,000+ lots in a Heritage auction? I knew they were big but didn't thing they got close to that.
I put in like 5 bids and just got an order of 4 items. I'm feeling like a big time slacker!
I'm getting an education. I see that membership is closed so it appears the volume of business being done with current members must be good.
Since membership is closed does this mean an individual would have to bring the coin to a member dealer to access this service?
Is it one person (John Albanese) who makes the call on a coin or are there graders he has authorized to make the call?
It’s your positive comment about learning that causes me and others to share our thoughts continuously on these threads, which we all agree happen VERY often. I’m very glad you’re gaining new insights into our wonderful hobby!
Membership opens every couple of months or so. I suggest you apply for a Collector Submitter membership, and then be patient. My guess is within a couple of months or so, you’ll be accepted.
JA uses several extremely experienced graders. I’m not exactly sure of their finalization process.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@GRANDAM said:
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
Actually my last question was related to this issue on whether JA is the only one call the shot as to a coin getting a sticker or others at CAC or qualified member dealer (qualified by JA himself).
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Catbert said:
Most questions about CAC and attendant opinion can be readily accessed through the search forum section above. Ignorance can be relieved easily.
Fresh opinions, fresh ideas, changes at CAC are all reasons to bring up topics discussed in the past again. This isn't like asking the weight and diameter of an 1808 half eagle.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Catbert said:
Most questions about CAC and attendant opinion can be readily accessed through the search forum section above. Ignorance can be relieved easily.
Fresh opinions, fresh ideas, changes at CAC are all reasons to bring up topics discussed in the past again. This isn't like asking the weight and diameter of an 1808 half eagle.
And you joined the forum 20 years ago and you think this thread contains revelatory information?
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@gumby1234 said:
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
Dealers pay a fee for every coin, collectors pay only for stickered coins. Dealers are expected to submit far more than collectors. I don’t think JA intended CAC to be a major money maker. The guy has plenty of money-making ideas and experience.
Is it one person (John Albanese) who makes the call on a coin or are there graders he has authorized to make the call?
My understanding is he has several world class graders who agree with his basic principles and he acts as the finalizer/tie breaker.
@pmh1nic said:
Fresh opinions, fresh ideas, changes at CAC are all reasons to bring up topics discussed in the past again. This isn't like asking the weight and diameter of an 1808 half eagle.
And you joined the forum 20 years ago and you think this thread contains revelatory information?
Apparently to @pmh1nic it does! So isn’t it worthwhile that we all went through this exercise? Let’s not forget there have been a total of over 900 views of this post, so there’s a decent chance others have learned too. While this post can be quashed if necessary, let’s not put a damper on posts that have the potential of educating others. Hey, I learn a tremendous amount from this forum, and my learning from here will never end!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@GRANDAM said:
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
This has been pondered and discussed here several times, really no one has a good enough crystal ball to answer this. But some have expressed the thought that perhaps the bean will be redesigned to denote the change. Some have theorized that CAC will close up when JA calls it quits. Many also think that the coins beaned under JA will gain even more value. No way to know until that day comes along, however JA is a smart guy and I suspect that he has a plan.
@GRANDAM said:
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
This has been pondered and discussed here several times, really no one has a good enough crystal ball to answer this. But some have expressed the thought that perhaps the bean will be redesigned to denote the change. Some have theorized that CAC will close up when JA calls it quits. Many also think that the coins beaned under JA will gain even more value. No way to know until that day comes along, however JA is a smart guy and I suspect that he has a plan.
I am aware of this as well,,,,, it has been proven that PCGS has been successful and continued to prosper even after their #1 guy left. Actually their #1 guy quit personally grading all the coins many years prior and PCGS prospered. He was successful in moving his company forward,,,,,, that is the job of a good manager,,, to make sure that the company runs as well without you as it does with you. All I am saying is that CAC hasn't done so yet.
I hope that they are successful as well but as you say we don't know that yet and I am positive the stickers won't lose any of their value when John no longer grades,,,,,,, unless the sticker does not change to reflect that..
This could be a sticky position and a hard decision for CAC to make when the time comes,,,,,, to change the sticker or not.
@amwldcoin said:
If there is a need for a Quack sticker then the grading companies should buy the coins that won't Quack and reholder them or take them off the market!
If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade. Unfortunately, it is an inescapable reality that many are at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade. CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade. CAC will eventually reject tens of thousands of accurately graded coins. Many of these rejected coins will be acceptable to numerous dealers and collectors and will continue to be available in the marketplace. For quality-conscious collectors and dealers, a coin with a CAC sticker will have significant meaning.
@pmh1nic said:
The thread about the new PQ company had me asking the question, what percentage of the collecting population really cares about having a sticker on the slab? Connected to that question is the question, where does pricing come into play with respect to the importance of having or not having a sticker on the slab.
I don't buy anything rare or expensive. I realize "expensive" is a relative thing but at the extremes we can agree the potential importance of a sticker on a $100 coin pales in comparison to the importance of one on a $100K coin. For me the most important aspect of having a coin that has been seen by one of the major grading companies is authentication and identifying not so obvious flaws. There is not enough difference in the pricing based on one point higher lower to have a meaningful impact when it comes time to sell. On a $100 coin another $10 + or - isn't going to inflict any pain.
So what are your thoughts? Is the sticker issue and issue that 10% of the collecting population is concerned with and/or is there some dollar value that drives making having a sticker a critical factor in buying a coin?
5% of all coin collectors also think you are elitist as well. They never pay more than 10% above face value for the coins. Obviously that precludes their buying gold or silver coins. what you think something is not rare oe expensive is very much so to them.
@pmh1nic said:
I don't buy anything rare or expensive.
You got a lot of responses to your OP.
Hope you learned something for a collector who does not buy anything rare or expensive.
Better to learn before you jump in and find out you're in the deep end of the pool and can't swim 😉
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Catbert said:
Most questions about CAC and attendant opinion can be readily accessed through the search forum section above. Ignorance can be relieved easily.
Fresh opinions, fresh ideas, changes at CAC are all reasons to bring up topics discussed in the past again. This isn't like asking the weight and diameter of an 1808 half eagle.
And you joined the forum 20 years ago and you think this thread contains revelatory information?
Don't sell me short. I was a member of the prior forum before the switched to the new format. That said if you had really done a proper job of investigation you would have noticed a long period of silence on my part as I was raising the kids (four) and helping raise the grandkids (fifteen) and great grandchildren (now up to eight). Work and a number of avocations took up most of my time leaving little time for collecting and forum chatter. I'm now semi-retired (won't fully retire because then I'd have to learn how to cook and do laundry) so more time to get up to date on what's happening in the world of numismatics.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I care as well. Only for CAC, not the others such as PQ.
Not because of the resale value. I care because I believe most stickered coins are indeed nicer examples amongst others of the same grade. It can help weed out some coins from better coins when quickly looking at hundreds of them. I have seen a few examples of stickered coins that were fairly mind boggling, but most seem to be deserved, IMO.
Comments
Who cares? I care.
Many times the value increase is profitable even on $50 coins,,,,,,,, I have done so many times.
Same holds true for QA Check sticker coins.
As long as I like the coin and it will sell not concerned. Stickered coins they will have to pay more to get from me as they cost me more. It’s just function of markup for me. CAC coins simply a separate inventory class. About 7 pct of slabbed coins on eBay. No biggie IMO.
If you feel CAC coins worth top dollar great I like that, wb glad retail you some. If they pay the money works for me. I do believe in marking up A coins (based on my evaluation / my basis for PQ) higher vs B. And in many instances got my price on them.
Yes he definitely will not sticker certain material he feels had prior cleaning or surface issues (CAC contest on Coin Talk). But it simply means no sticker and does not invalidate the grading certificate.
Maybe we should all get together and have the CAC choir compete with the non CAC crowd and play football or something against each other!
If your heirs send them to auction, the auction company can send to CAC.
And not everything is worth sending to CAC. If you have a $100 coin that is worth $110 with CAC, it would be silly to send it in.
Is there a cost for CAC membership (I'm unclear on this)?
A lot of dealer to dealer sales go sight unseen. In almost every Heritage auction, I put in tens of thousands of bids without even looking at the pictures. And, yes, I bid higher on the CAC coins.
Different argument
This is exactly the argument that was raging 25 years ago over slabs. Today, there's a chorus on here that tells people not to buy raw coins, especially keys.
Apparently, we learned nothing from 25 years ago.
I don't need a slab to buy a coin. I don't need a sticker to buy a coin. I don't need an engineering inspection to buy a house. I don't need an automotive inspection. I don't need a property survey. I don't need a notarized signature. I don't need an independent insurance appraisal. There's also a reason why I would pay for each of those things and a market value associated with it.
Return to thumping your chests and repeating the same argument written in 100 CAC threads. Maybe in the future we could save time by just linking to those prior comments and threads.
No
You assume there is no correlation between coins that get CAC approval and those that dont.
Also you assume that the buyer can identify the proper grade, whether a coin has been messed with, etc. You also assume that the buyer has looked at thousands of similar coins and therefore has a basis to compare whether the coin he is reviewing is solid or not for the grade.
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
These treads are more for folks that weren't here 25 years ago and haven't heard the arguments in the past. While there is value in searching subjects that can get to be a convoluted way to get information. Also, opinions change over time. As for folks that get frustrated with having the discussion again, no one is forcing anyone to contribute but based on the number of responses it appears to be of some interest to some.
I think another aspect of CAC approval that is overlooked is risk especially for expensive coins.
Let's say you believe you dont need a sticker to tell you that a coin is nice for the grade. If you are right---you probably got a nice coin ar a fair price. If you are wrong---you bought a low end coin for the grade or maybe even a over graded coin. Or maybe a coin that has been messed with. If you are an expert in your series, then hopefully you can avoid these pitfalls. However, most collectors do not have the time to be experts. Those collectors basically have little upside buying expensive non CAC coins but lots of downside.
This is a different kind of chest thumping that actually makes me frown at our hosts for starting to support them. I consider it double dipping or another way to put it double taxation! If the grading companies are doing there job there is no need for a Quack sticker. If there is a need for a Quack sticker then the grading companies should buy the coins that won't Quack and reholder them or take them off the market!
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
No need for the game. The CAC crowd has clearly already won. The difference in value for CAC coins has been proven by auction results, separate price guides, and registry for CAC coins. Anyone looking at back at CAC alarmist posts 5 years ago would have to now objectively declare they were wrong.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This is very true. CAC coins make up a separate segment of the market now. I can't see it changing anytime soon unless there is more separation...
This gets back to a comment I made about the buying and selling experience. When I buy the coin it's rock solid for the grade on the PCGS label. When I go to sell the coin becomes the rare instance where PCGS got it wrong...lol.
An expensive experiment would be to take 100 stickered coins, crack them out and send the raw coins to PCGS to see what comes back. What percentage do you think would come back the same grade, a grade higher, a grade lower or details grade.
I consider all sticker companies parasites to our hobby. The market is also being manipulated. I know someone that had a tough Seated Dollar in better grade that had a 0 POP at CAC. The CAC bid dropped $20,000 immediately after he got it CAC'd. I find it funny I bought my 01-S quarter for $4-5000 under CAC bid! Why didn't the dealer who bid that bid on mine since it's the only 1? And according to @Crypto 's comments about mine it blows many's reasoning for the need for a sticker!
Dealers pay a fee for every coin, collectors pay only for stickered coins. Dealers are expected to submit far more than collectors. I don’t think JA intended CAC to be a major money maker. The guy has plenty of money-making ideas and experience.
Yes, you are missing something. They DON’T make much of their profit by stickering coins. They make the majority of their profits by making a market in CAC coins, buying and selling, almost all wholesale to and from dealers.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Thanks Steve. I'm totally unaware of the ins and outs of that market.
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
I'm getting an education. I see that membership is closed so it appears the volume of business being done with current members must be good.
Since membership is closed does this mean an individual would have to bring the coin to a member dealer to access this service?
Is it one person (John Albanese) who makes the call on a coin or are there graders he has authorized to make the call?
No. When @readyaimfire was talking about the weight that PCGS gives to Surface Preservation in assigning a grade (as does CAC), he and you are referring to the marks and other distractions. Separately, PCGS also takes cleaning into account (as does CAC) the amount and type of “cleaning” a coin has undergone. If PCGS determines it is too much, they’ll put a coin in a “Details” holder. My next comment is based on my understanding and I may be wrong, but I believe this is where the difference lies. PCGS may feel the level or type of cleaning a coin has undergone is ok to straight grade that coin, where CAC believes, in their opinion, that what was done to a coin previously to “help” it, is too much to merit a CAC sticker.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
They don't. They make their money on the retail side
I'm not going.
Are there even 10,000+ lots in a Heritage auction? I knew they were big but didn't thing they got close to that.
I put in like 5 bids and just got an order of 4 items. I'm feeling like a big time slacker!
Most questions about CAC and attendant opinion can be readily accessed through the search forum. There isn’t anything new to discuss,
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Actually my last question was related to this issue on whether JA is the only one call the shot as to a coin getting a sticker or others at CAC or qualified member dealer (qualified by JA himself).
Fresh opinions, fresh ideas, changes at CAC are all reasons to bring up topics discussed in the past again. This isn't like asking the weight and diameter of an 1808 half eagle.
And you joined the forum 20 years ago and you think this thread contains revelatory information?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
ANA LM
LSCC
EAC
FUN
My understanding is he has several world class graders who agree with his basic principles and he acts as the finalizer/tie breaker.
Apparently to @pmh1nic it does! So isn’t it worthwhile that we all went through this exercise? Let’s not forget there have been a total of over 900 views of this post, so there’s a decent chance others have learned too. While this post can be quashed if necessary, let’s not put a damper on posts that have the potential of educating others. Hey, I learn a tremendous amount from this forum, and my learning from here will never end!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This has been pondered and discussed here several times, really no one has a good enough crystal ball to answer this. But some have expressed the thought that perhaps the bean will be redesigned to denote the change. Some have theorized that CAC will close up when JA calls it quits. Many also think that the coins beaned under JA will gain even more value. No way to know until that day comes along, however JA is a smart guy and I suspect that he has a plan.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I want CAC, PQ, and Gold Shield
I am aware of this as well,,,,, it has been proven that PCGS has been successful and continued to prosper even after their #1 guy left. Actually their #1 guy quit personally grading all the coins many years prior and PCGS prospered. He was successful in moving his company forward,,,,,, that is the job of a good manager,,, to make sure that the company runs as well without you as it does with you. All I am saying is that CAC hasn't done so yet.
I hope that they are successful as well but as you say we don't know that yet and I am positive the stickers won't lose any of their value when John no longer grades,,,,,,, unless the sticker does not change to reflect that..
This could be a sticky position and a hard decision for CAC to make when the time comes,,,,,, to change the sticker or not.
If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade. Unfortunately, it is an inescapable reality that many are at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade. CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade. CAC will eventually reject tens of thousands of accurately graded coins. Many of these rejected coins will be acceptable to numerous dealers and collectors and will continue to be available in the marketplace. For quality-conscious collectors and dealers, a coin with a CAC sticker will have significant meaning.
https://www.caccoin.com/faq/
Seeing as how accurately graded coins may not receive a sticker, why should they be reholdered or taken off the market?
5% of all coin collectors also think you are elitist as well. They never pay more than 10% above face value for the coins. Obviously that precludes their buying gold or silver coins. what you think something is not rare oe expensive is very much so to them.
Interesting reversed roles?
You got a lot of responses to your OP.
Hope you learned something for a collector who does not buy anything rare or expensive.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
No Plus?? Rejected!!
I'll take a 68 over a 67+
Better to learn before you jump in and find out you're in the deep end of the pool and can't swim 😉
Don't sell me short. I was a member of the prior forum before the switched to the new format. That said if you had really done a proper job of investigation you would have noticed a long period of silence on my part as I was raising the kids (four) and helping raise the grandkids (fifteen) and great grandchildren (now up to eight). Work and a number of avocations took up most of my time leaving little time for collecting and forum chatter. I'm now semi-retired (won't fully retire because then I'd have to learn how to cook and do laundry) so more time to get up to date on what's happening in the world of numismatics.
Well, a little bit of a cost: your pride.
peacockcoins
Are you sure? Everything is rare in the hobby of "rare coins"
I care as well. Only for CAC, not the others such as PQ.
Not because of the resale value. I care because I believe most stickered coins are indeed nicer examples amongst others of the same grade. It can help weed out some coins from better coins when quickly looking at hundreds of them. I have seen a few examples of stickered coins that were fairly mind boggling, but most seem to be deserved, IMO.
Jb-rarities.com
IG: jb_rarities