I don't generally haggle on price when I find one I like because I've probably been looking a long time for it.
It's like if a supermodel asked me to dinner, the answer is yes and I'll figure out how to pay for it later.
If a supermodel asked you out to dinner, why isn't she paying?
I suppose if she made me ride on the back of her motorcycle she could pay
I just can't understand how so many members here feel compelled to post that they don't "care about" CAC, or they avoid coins with CAC stickers, or say collectors are foolish to look for stickers when what they should do is "just learn to grade", etc., etc., etc. It's really SIMPLE. If you don't want to buy CAC coins, don't! Why do you need to disparage other collectors for what they want or like, and to belabor us with with your whining and disdain? Collect what you like and how you like, and let others do the same.
@pmh1nic said:
Have you every seen a CAC coin in hand that you thought totally missed the mark, an MS-65 that you saw and immediately said “no way”?
As a preservation/technical grader, that happens all the time.
To complicate things, TPG's grade different date/mint coins in the same series differently & so does JA.
Now throw in someone like me and you could be getting 3 totally different opinions on the same coin.
Regarding your comment about paying 65 money for an accurately graded 65 coin in a 65 holder, it sounds to me like part of the enjoyment you have in buying is making the deal. I have a brother-in-law like that and it’s free entertainment for me anytime I go shopping with him .
I don't generally haggle on price when I find one I like because I've probably been looking a long time for it.
It's like if a supermodel asked me to dinner, the answer is yes and I'll figure out how to pay for it later.
So I get from your comments that...
your confidence, agreement with CAC's assessment of coins isn't as rock solid as others. Just based on what I've read it seems some would grade them 95% accurate and you'd be more in the 50%-60% range. Is that about right?
Also, some have said CAC has created a market given the high confidence many have in their ability to accurate assess the grade (and therefore value) of coins but you don't necessarily buy into that market meaning, simply because there is a CAC sticker on the slab doesn't enhance its value above the grade on the slab. Would that be accurate?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
We’re on the 9th day and 6th page (over 250 comments). This might have busted both records for a CAC thread.
Obviously, we’ve all behaved ourselves, regardless of our thoughts on these issues. Congratulations to ALL of us that have posted.
Most importantly, at the moment there have been over 3,500 views, presumably by many collectors that have not posted. I believe many of them have benefitted greatly by having read comments on both sides of these issues.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@ms71 said:
I just can't understand how so many members here feel compelled to post that they don't "care about" CAC, or they avoid coins with CAC stickers, or say collectors are foolish to look for stickers when what they should do is "just learn to grade", etc., etc., etc. It's really SIMPLE. If you don't want to buy CAC coins, don't! Why do you need to disparage other collectors for what they want or like, and to belabor us with with your whining and disdain? Collect what you like and how you like, and let others do the same.
I think one of the issues for long time collectors is the floating scale of grading standards. If I've spent 20 years looking at 3 or 4 serious of coins, having viewed hundreds or thousands of them to train my eyes and brain to recognize xyz condition as an MS-64 or AU-58 based on the ANA standards and then some group of top players in the industry say those standards no longer apply it has pretty much undone the work I've put into learning to grade AND may negatively impact the value of my collection. This may be one of the reasons for the frustration and disappointment with the changes.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Most importantly, at the moment there have been over 3,500 views, presumably by many collectors that have not posted. I believe many of them have benefitted greatly by having read comments on both sides of these issues.
I disagree with this assertion and its presumed benefit, but of course it's speculation. Sometimes a train wreck draws repeated views. I know I've come to this thread every time there are new posts to watch the same old arguments.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Hmmmm...show me where CAC backs their stickers with cold, hard, cash? The best I can see is if he needs something at the time. There is no stated guarantee. For what I deal in you had better offer the coins to me because I will blow his offer prices away!
The majority of serious collectors can appreciate a CAC coin... Well, most of them at least.
PQ is subjective. Nobody has a running bid sheet on the term PQ. CAC backs their stickers with cold, hard cash. So CAC is far more important to discerning buyers than PQ.
JA and company do not look at 500 coins a day. It's more likely 200-250 a day from my understanding. Certainly no more than 400 unless they're behind as they probably were after the ANA break, or they get a large group in. Again, this is from my understanding, which is admittedly limited. I understand that they are less busy with stickering coins these days than they used to be ~10 years ago.
Margins (for me) on the CAC coins that I don't keep are excellent even factoring in the costs of CAC. The few times it isn't worth it is when I'm chasing a gold bean and don't get it... And even I know that is folly, but it's fun to do it once in a while. Gambling, if you would, with minimal downside. Any dealer worth their ilk should have a CAC membership, it's a relatively affordable value-add to the business of selling slabbed coins.
What CAC has done in the marketplace is defined the coins that are PQ and made it obvious. While some coins are obvious at arms length and a seconds notice that they are exceptional for the grade, others take some time to really hit. Before the CAC era, you might look at a coin, evaluate it, and find yourself wanting a bit more... Then as you reflect on the coin and look at some other stuff, you realize "Damn, that really was a nice one." Having a CAC sticker on the coin makes it a bit more obvious, and can get you to stop and look at it a little closer, and consider it a little more. Essentially, CAC has narrowed the knowledge gap (moat) between expert dealers and collectors, to the benefit of collectors everywhere.
While dealers will generally ask more for a CAC'ed coin, at the end of the day you don't have to pay it. I rarely buy my coins already beaned, and prefer to make my beans myself, for example. I enjoy the process of pulling together a group of coins that I think are PQ, sending them in, and seeing what shakes out, then cross-referencing my notes with the results and evaluate the deviations from expected outcomes to educate myself.
I joined CAC when I was just a regular collector, but at this point, am far more of a vest dealer than collector, and I still find CAC's value to my education in the hobby/business to be immutable. JA is a great guy to chat with, he is on point and really knows his shit in and out. It's impressive. As long as you approach your results with an open mind and are willing to learn, CAC is a fantastic tool to further your enjoyment of the hobby.
Because most serious collectors know what they are buying and it doesn't matter if it has a sticker or not. No I don't avoid CAC coins...but the sticker doesn't influence the price I will pay.
@ms71 said:
I just can't understand how so many members here feel compelled to post that they don't "care about" CAC, or they avoid coins with CAC stickers, or say collectors are foolish to look for stickers when what they should do is "just learn to grade", etc., etc., etc. It's really SIMPLE. If you don't want to buy CAC coins, don't! Why do you need to disparage other collectors for what they want or like, and to belabor us with with your whining and disdain? Collect what you like and how you like, and let others do the same.
For me, I understand CAC and in general I tend to like the appearance of CAC coins, but I don’t like the idea that people might assume there is something wrong with my slabbed coins that don’t have a CAC sticker on them. I bought several slabbed coins before CAC existed and several more when CAC was new and not as well established as they are now. So, if I decide that I want to sell them, people might assume that they aren’t nice coins because they don’t have a CAC sticker on them. It’s almost like I’d be forced to submit them to get their full value.
I wish there was a way to search on CAC website to see if coins were submitted and didn’t get a sticker.
So I get from your comments that... your confidence, agreement with CAC's assessment of coins isn't as rock solid as others. Just based on what I've read it seems some would grade them 95% accurate and you'd be more in the 50%-60% range. Is that about right?
I was talking to a luster grader recently & he said this...
If I were grading coins according to current standards, I’d have a 7x glass with me or a 5x if I couldn’t get a 7. But for me to decide if I want a particular coin for MY collection, I need NO MAGNIFICATION at all. Just the right light and my own hand and eyes.
We discussed it matter-of-factly with no animus.
He accepted my opinion & I accepted his.
I especially like registry sets, not the "fake" ones that are assembled by dealer but the ones carefully chosen by a collector.
I like to try and figure them out by the coins they select.
To answer your question, 2 out of the 18 coins in my set are CAC & I bought them that way.
There are only two CAC sets of saints that don't look like a pile of dead cats to me & that's because some rich guys bought top pops.
@ms71 said:
I just can't understand how so many members here feel compelled to post that they don't "care about" CAC, or they avoid coins with CAC stickers, or say collectors are foolish to look for stickers when what they should do is "just learn to grade", etc., etc., etc. It's really SIMPLE. If you don't want to buy CAC coins, don't! Why do you need to disparage other collectors for what they want or like, and to belabor us with with your whining and disdain? Collect what you like and how you like, and let others do the same.
I think one of the issues for long time collectors is the floating scale of grading standards. If I've spent 20 years looking at 3 or 4 serious of coins, having viewed hundreds or thousands of them to train my eyes and brain to recognize xyz condition as an MS-64 or AU-58 based on the ANA standards and then some group of top players in the industry say those standards no longer apply it has pretty much undone the work I've put into learning to grade AND may negatively impact the value of my collection. This may be one of the reasons for the frustration and disappointment with the changes.
CAC has improved the situation a lot more than before it existed. Before CAC lots of dealers would employ practices of submitting coins over and over again to get higher grades. You could see evidence of this on some photo sites in the past.
I think one of the issues for long time collectors is the floating scale of grading standards. If I've spent 20 years looking at 3 or 4 serious of coins, having viewed hundreds or thousands of them to train my eyes and brain to recognize xyz condition as an MS-64 or AU-58 based on the ANA standards and then some group of top players in the industry say those standards no longer apply it has pretty much undone the work I've put into learning to grade AND may negatively impact the value of my collection. This may be one of the reasons for the frustration and disappointment with the changes.
I think you are misunderstanding, same grading stds apply, but 1, grading is subjective, 2, different people apply those standards differently, and 3, there is variable quality within a grade.
I guess to ask the question in a better way, if I had amassed a collection of AU-58 coins that by definition 20 years ago had excellent eye appeal, very good strike, no distractiing marks in prime focal areas, almost full luster with very minor wear/rub and the standard for AU-58 was changed to include a banged up coin with the surface preservative of an MS-60, numerous marks, dark toning, this change very well could downgrade the value of my collection. I wouldn’t expect this collector would be too thrilled with the changes.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
I guess to ask the question in a better way, if I had amassed a collection of AU-58 coins that by definition 20 years ago had excellent eye appeal, very good strike, no distractiing marks in prime focal areas, almost full luster with very minor wear/rub and the standard for AU-58 was changed to include a banged up coin with the surface preservative of an MS-60, numerous marks, dark toning, this change very well could downgrade the value of my collection. I wouldn’t expect this collector would be too thrilled with the changes.
And this is why some collectors have left US coins, as I mentioned above.
Regarding CAC, @BillJones has both an excellent collection and a series of threads on the issue of CAC affecting the US coins market.
I think one of the issues for long time collectors is the floating scale of grading standards. If I've spent 20 years looking at 3 or 4 serious of coins, having viewed hundreds or thousands of them to train my eyes and brain to recognize xyz condition as an MS-64 or AU-58 based on the ANA standards and then some group of top players in the industry say those standards no longer apply it has pretty much undone the work I've put into learning to grade AND may negatively impact the value of my collection. This may be one of the reasons for the frustration and disappointment with the changes.
I think you are misunderstanding, same grading stds apply, but 1, grading is subjective, 2, different people apply those standards differently, and 3, there is variable quality within a grade.
Based on what I’ve been told by grading experts and based on the grading standards published by PCGS the standards have changed. Prior to the change. One example is contact marks were a critical factor in assigning the AU-58 grade. That no longer applies.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
if I had amassed a collection of AU-58 coins that by definition 20 years ago....
It's probably a MS64 with a gold CAC sticker now
To maximize the value of one's classic US coin collection, it's important to get coins regraded and CACed. Just note how many coins are in new Gen 6.0 holders.
In some areas it doesn't matter as much. For example, in exonumia, may rare pieces are in old holders because there just aren't that many so minor grade changes matter less.
@pmh1nic said:
I guess to ask the question in a better way, if I had amassed a collection of AU-58 coins that by definition 20 years ago had excellent eye appeal, very good strike, no distractiing marks in prime focal areas, almost full luster with very minor wear/rub and the standard for AU-58 was changed to include a banged up coin with the surface preservative of an MS-60, numerous marks, dark toning, this change very well could downgrade the value of my collection. I wouldn’t expect this collector would be too thrilled with the changes.
Whether a collector is not thrilled with CAC coming along really is an interesting antidote but not relevant. CAC is here, has been accepted by the market, TPG, and many collectors. Those collectors not thrilled should either adapt to the times or they are free to stop collecting or they can continue to do what they want. However, trying to bash CAC at this time is a waste of time. It's like car dealers when the internet first came into force. Many hated that the info of the true price of the cars was being made public and hated the competition. Others embraced it and used it to their advantage. The internet was not going away regardless how they felt and CAC is just now a fact of life
Every single work day that goes by more and more premium coins get that CAC sticker on a set of a finite number of coins in NGC and PCGS holders. And they don't sticker moderns. This means that at some point most of the premium coins in those holders will have CAC stickers. So if you don't want that sticker on there, carefully remove it. It's still a CAC coin even if reholdered. IMO having that CAC sticker on your holder benefits anyone with title ownership.
@pmh1nic said:
I guess to ask the question in a better way, if I had amassed a collection of AU-58 coins that by definition 20 years ago had excellent eye appeal, very good strike, no distractiing marks in prime focal areas, almost full luster with very minor wear/rub and the standard for AU-58 was changed to include a banged up coin with the surface preservative of an MS-60, numerous marks, dark toning, this change very well could downgrade the value of my collection. I wouldn’t expect this collector would be too thrilled with the changes.
Whether a collector is not thrilled with CAC coming along really is an interesting antidote but not relevant. CAC is here, has been accepted by the market, TPG, and many collectors. Those collectors not thrilled should either adapt to the times or they are free to stop collecting or they can continue to do what they want. However, trying to bash CAC at this time is a waste of time. It's like car dealers when the internet first came into force. Many hated that the info of the true price of the cars was being made public and hated the competition. Others embraced it and used it to their advantage. The internet was not going away regardless how they felt and CAC is just now a fact of life
I wouldn’t say the concerns by those that have concerns about CAC are not relevant but rather those concerns are not relevant to the market in general or the movers and shakers in the industry. It may not be relevant to collectors of relatively expensive coins where the cost of grading and CAC is more likely to be recovered. And as mentioned it would be relevant to someone that amassed their collection prior to the changes in grading if the changes negatively impact the perceived value of their collection.
One thing I’d be interested in knowing is what percentage of the market is made up of coins valued under $100 between $101-500, $501-1,000 and above $1,000. Is that above $1,000 equal 90% of the market or 50%? This may provided some sense of relevance of CAC to the market as a whole.
Another indicator of relevance would be how many coins have been graded by PCGS and NGC and how many coins have been stickered by CAC? If PCGS and NGC have graded 200,000,000 coins and CAC has sticker 200,000 (those may be higher end coins) that might be a factor in determining relevance.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I still don't see why anyone wants to haggle about the "relevance" or "worth" of CAC. CAC is out there. Ignore it if you like. Embrace it if you like. It's your free choice. Why worry at all for how other collectors feel about it? Why advance rationale to show how others "should" feel about it?
@ms71 said:
I still don't see why anyone wants to haggle about the "relevance" or "worth" of CAC. CAC is out there. Ignore it if you like. Embrace it if you like. It's your free choice. Why worry at all for how other collectors feel about it? Why advance rationale to show how others "should" feel about it?
It’s not haggling, it’s discussing and hopefully in the discussion we (myself included) can learn something from those on both sides of the issue.
Questions for you. Do you know what percentage of the coin market is made up of coins selling for less than $1000? Do you know what percentage of coins submitted to CAC are valued at less than $1000?
How can we talk about the relevance of CAC without knowing these numbers?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@ms71 said:
I still don't see why anyone wants to haggle about the "relevance" or "worth" of CAC. CAC is out there. Ignore it if you like. Embrace it if you like. It's your free choice. Why worry at all for how other collectors feel about it? Why advance rationale to show how others "should" feel about it?
It’s not haggling, it’s discussing and hopefully in the discussion we (myself included) can learn something from those on both sides of the issue.
Questions for you. Do you know what percentage of the coin market is made up of coins selling for less than $1000? Do you know what percentage of coins submitted to CAC are valued at less than $1000?
How can we talk about the relevance of CAC without knowing these numbers?
Why would we want to talk about the "relevance" of CAC? It's out there in the market. Make what use of it, if any, you think appropriate for your collecting goals..
@ms71 said:
I still don't see why anyone wants to haggle about the "relevance" or "worth" of CAC. CAC is out there. Ignore it if you like. Embrace it if you like. It's your free choice. Why worry at all for how other collectors feel about it? Why advance rationale to show how others "should" feel about it?
It’s not haggling, it’s discussing and hopefully in the discussion we (myself included) can learn something from those on both sides of the issue.
Questions for you. Do you know what percentage of the coin market is made up of coins selling for less than $1000? Do you know what percentage of coins submitted to CAC are valued at less than $1000?
How can we talk about the relevance of CAC without knowing these numbers?
Why would we want to talk about the "relevance" of CAC? It's out there in the market. Make what use of it, if any, you think appropriate for your collecting goals..
Why? Because you’re not going to be able to make informed decisions without knowing the facts regarding the relevance of the sticker. We here all kinds of anecdotal evidence about the importance of the sticker. I’d be interested in hard numbers. The claim is you’re really not in the game if you’re not acknowledging CAC’s place in the industry. But what do the hard numbers (if they exist) tell you? Has Heritage or Stacks kept accurate records of the percentage of the coins they auction have CAC stickers? Are they able to calculate a premium realized based sole on having that sticker? Again, what percentage of all PCGS and NGC coins have a sticker? What percentage of the PCGS and NGC coins submitted have received a sticker? How can anyone talk about relevance without having these numbers?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@steveben said:
if you have a 1849 double eagle, you probably don't need it. but you might on a 1850.
But if it doesn’t sticker, does it exist or even count? Isn’t it merely expensive dreck?
Alas, I don’t think the Farouk 1933 Saint double Eagle was stickered until after the auction. I sincerely wonder whether some diehard CAC groupies thumbed their nosed at it because it hadn’t been “saved” by the coin gods. Many thought of it as a C or worse coin.
@pmh1nic , the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like. As such, in the real world, you’ve been given a ton of things to think about. By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
@AlexinPA said:
'Flippers' are not collectors. The only reason they buy a CAC/PQ coin is to make a profit from it. Makes them the same as a dealer.
What's wrong with making a profit? Plenty of collectors buy CAC/PQ coins due to the financial benefits associated with owning them.
Just sayin'.
Most likely long term profits as opposed to a quick short term profit.
Long term profits are okay but short term ones aren't?
Just saying that the average person putting a collection together is hoping it's profitable in the long run rather than expecting a quick flip as would a dealer.
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like. As such, in the real world, you’ve been given a ton of things to think about. By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
Steve
In the real world numbers do exist. In many cases when the folks that have the hard numbers are unwilling to reveal them it’s because those numbers reveal a reality that doesn’t align with the claims made based on anecdotal evidence. It’s been claimed that CAC has created a market. I’d like to know how big that market is relative to the coin market in general.
Surely CAC knows the number of the PCGS and NGC coins that have been submitted that received a sticker. I’m sure PCGS and NGC know the number of coins they’ve graded and slabbed. While some of them are resubmissions the gross number gives you some idea of the total coins slabbed versus the number of stickers to give you a gross estimate (percentage) of stickered to unstickered coins and how big the CAC market really is. Calculating the average value of CAC sticker coins should be that difficult to process.
I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@cameonut2011 said:
I don’t think the Farouk 1933 Saint double Eagle was stickered until after the auction. I sincerely wonder whether some diehard CAC groupies thumbed their nosed at it because it hadn’t been “saved” by the coin gods. Many thought of it as a C or worse coin.
CAC is a "requirement" for good prices, so of course the Farouk-Weitzman 1933 DE was CAC approved before the auction
CAC approval was announced on CoinWeek April 30, 2021, but occurred a few weeks earlier on April 7. The auction was over a month later on June 8, 2021.
Most recently, on March 18, 2021, Brett Charville, President of PCGS, re-examined the coin at Sotheby’s New York, and certified the coin as MS 65 (PCGS certification number: 42095232); and on April 7, 2021, John Albanese of Certified Acceptance Corporation (CAC) verified the 1933 double eagle as meeting its standard for strict quality within its grade–and assigned it a ‘green bean’.
"I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience."
You sure have alot of opinions for someone who does not buy rare or expensive coins.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
"If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged."
Well perhaps . However the TPG whose slab the coin was in is considered the best so I went along with their expert opinion!
I learned my lesson !
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
Understand that hiring an expert is not inexpensive---they charge for auction representation. Also, I have bought coins from dealers who everyone on this board would consider an expert and later found the coin had a problem. CAC quite frankly solves alot of problem---an expert whose credentials are without question who has reviewed the coin in an impartial way. So sure you can find a lot in an auction, call the dealer you think is expert, assume that he or she will be able to see it first hand (not 100% with covid), assume they have not agreed to represent someone else, pay a fee or trust the track record of CAC.
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
Understand that hiring an expert is not inexpensive---they charge for auction representation. Also, I have bought coins from dealers who everyone on this board would consider an expert and later found the coin had a problem. CAC quite frankly solves alot of problem---an expert whose credentials are without question who has reviewed the coin in an impartial way. So sure you can find a lot in an auction, call the dealer you think is expert, assume that he or she will be able to see it first hand (not 100% with covid), assume they have not agreed to represent someone else, pay a fee or trust the track record of CAC.
Is it inexpensive? No. But the mark up (usually a low single digit percentage for auction representation) seemingly pales in comparison to the premiums CAC has generated for better coins. For more expensive coins, dealer mark ups in many cases were lower too especially for good customers. Now you pay the dealer mark up on top of the CAC mark up…
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like. As such, in the real world, you’ve been given a ton of things to think about. By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
Steve
In the real world numbers do exist. In many cases when the folks that have the hard numbers are unwilling to reveal them it’s because those numbers reveal a reality that doesn’t align with the claims made based on anecdotal evidence. It’s been claimed that CAC has created a market. I’d like to know how big that market is relative to the coin market in general.
Surely CAC knows the number of the PCGS and NGC coins that have been submitted that received a sticker. I’m sure PCGS and NGC know the number of coins they’ve graded and slabbed. While some of them are resubmissions the gross number gives you some idea of the total coins slabbed versus the number of stickers to give you a gross estimate (percentage) of stickered to unstickered coins and how big the CAC market really is. Calculating the average value of CAC sticker coins should be that difficult to process.
I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience.
How many privately owned companies disclosed confidential info?
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
CAC only costs $15/coin.
Good to know. Pogue's family got a nice return for that $15 when selling me this!
@Gazes said:
Also, I have bought coins from dealers who everyone on this board would consider an expert and later found the coin had a problem. CAC quite frankly solves alot of problem---an expert whose credentials are without question who has reviewed the coin in an impartial way.
CAC has made its fair share of errors as well. I seem to recall an altered 1856 broad struck flying Eagle cent with altered surfaces that was PCGS CAC. There’s a thread in it here somewhere. No one is perfect or will ever be perfect. There is too much group think in this hobby.
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
Understand that hiring an expert is not inexpensive---they charge for auction representation. Also, I have bought coins from dealers who everyone on this board would consider an expert and later found the coin had a problem. CAC quite frankly solves alot of problem---an expert whose credentials are without question who has reviewed the coin in an impartial way. So sure you can find a lot in an auction, call the dealer you think is expert, assume that he or she will be able to see it first hand (not 100% with covid), assume they have not agreed to represent someone else, pay a fee or trust the track record of CAC.
Is it inexpensive? No. But the mark up (usually a low single digit percentage for auction representation) seemingly pales in comparison to the premiums CAC has generated for better coins. For more expensive coins, dealer mark ups in many cases were lower too especially for good customers. Now you pay the dealer mark up on top of the CAC mark up…
Many people on these forums have been against CAC for years and years. Back then you could buy a CAC approved coin with little premium. Yes---many advocates of CAC predicted premiums have grown so anyone pro CAC in the past has done well and those listening to the anti CAC advocates are kicking themselves. I have predicted that CAC premiums will continue to grow as the number of new CAC coins continues to decline.
@pmh1nic , I’ll repeat: the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like……By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
CAC only costs $15/coin.
That’s the submission fee, not the aftermarket premium. Don’t forget about “sticker rarity.”
Comments
I suppose if she made me ride on the back of her motorcycle she could pay
My Saint Set
I just can't understand how so many members here feel compelled to post that they don't "care about" CAC, or they avoid coins with CAC stickers, or say collectors are foolish to look for stickers when what they should do is "just learn to grade", etc., etc., etc. It's really SIMPLE. If you don't want to buy CAC coins, don't! Why do you need to disparage other collectors for what they want or like, and to belabor us with with your whining and disdain? Collect what you like and how you like, and let others do the same.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
So I get from your comments that...
your confidence, agreement with CAC's assessment of coins isn't as rock solid as others. Just based on what I've read it seems some would grade them 95% accurate and you'd be more in the 50%-60% range. Is that about right?
Also, some have said CAC has created a market given the high confidence many have in their ability to accurate assess the grade (and therefore value) of coins but you don't necessarily buy into that market meaning, simply because there is a CAC sticker on the slab doesn't enhance its value above the grade on the slab. Would that be accurate?
We’re on the 9th day and 6th page (over 250 comments). This might have busted both records for a CAC thread.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I think one of the issues for long time collectors is the floating scale of grading standards. If I've spent 20 years looking at 3 or 4 serious of coins, having viewed hundreds or thousands of them to train my eyes and brain to recognize xyz condition as an MS-64 or AU-58 based on the ANA standards and then some group of top players in the industry say those standards no longer apply it has pretty much undone the work I've put into learning to grade AND may negatively impact the value of my collection. This may be one of the reasons for the frustration and disappointment with the changes.
I disagree with this assertion and its presumed benefit, but of course it's speculation. Sometimes a train wreck draws repeated views. I know I've come to this thread every time there are new posts to watch the same old arguments.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Hmmmm...show me where CAC backs their stickers with cold, hard, cash? The best I can see is if he needs something at the time. There is no stated guarantee. For what I deal in you had better offer the coins to me because I will blow his offer prices away!
Because most serious collectors know what they are buying and it doesn't matter if it has a sticker or not. No I don't avoid CAC coins...but the sticker doesn't influence the price I will pay.
For me, I understand CAC and in general I tend to like the appearance of CAC coins, but I don’t like the idea that people might assume there is something wrong with my slabbed coins that don’t have a CAC sticker on them. I bought several slabbed coins before CAC existed and several more when CAC was new and not as well established as they are now. So, if I decide that I want to sell them, people might assume that they aren’t nice coins because they don’t have a CAC sticker on them. It’s almost like I’d be forced to submit them to get their full value.
I wish there was a way to search on CAC website to see if coins were submitted and didn’t get a sticker.
Mr_Spud
I was talking to a luster grader recently & he said this...
We discussed it matter-of-factly with no animus.
He accepted my opinion & I accepted his.
I especially like registry sets, not the "fake" ones that are assembled by dealer but the ones carefully chosen by a collector.
I like to try and figure them out by the coins they select.
To answer your question, 2 out of the 18 coins in my set are CAC & I bought them that way.
There are only two CAC sets of saints that don't look like a pile of dead cats to me & that's because some rich guys bought top pops.
My Saint Set
CAC has improved the situation a lot more than before it existed. Before CAC lots of dealers would employ practices of submitting coins over and over again to get higher grades. You could see evidence of this on some photo sites in the past.
I think you are misunderstanding, same grading stds apply, but 1, grading is subjective, 2, different people apply those standards differently, and 3, there is variable quality within a grade.
I guess to ask the question in a better way, if I had amassed a collection of AU-58 coins that by definition 20 years ago had excellent eye appeal, very good strike, no distractiing marks in prime focal areas, almost full luster with very minor wear/rub and the standard for AU-58 was changed to include a banged up coin with the surface preservative of an MS-60, numerous marks, dark toning, this change very well could downgrade the value of my collection. I wouldn’t expect this collector would be too thrilled with the changes.
And this is why some collectors have left US coins, as I mentioned above.
Regarding CAC, @BillJones has both an excellent collection and a series of threads on the issue of CAC affecting the US coins market.
They're probably all MS64s with gold CAC stickers now
My Saint Set
Based on what I’ve been told by grading experts and based on the grading standards published by PCGS the standards have changed. Prior to the change. One example is contact marks were a critical factor in assigning the AU-58 grade. That no longer applies.
To maximize the value of one's classic US coin collection, it's important to get coins regraded and CACed. Just note how many coins are in new Gen 6.0 holders.
In some areas it doesn't matter as much. For example, in exonumia, may rare pieces are in old holders because there just aren't that many so minor grade changes matter less.
>
Not even close. Lol. I think there is a 25-30 page tome about CAC and grade inflation around here somewhere.
Whether a collector is not thrilled with CAC coming along really is an interesting antidote but not relevant. CAC is here, has been accepted by the market, TPG, and many collectors. Those collectors not thrilled should either adapt to the times or they are free to stop collecting or they can continue to do what they want. However, trying to bash CAC at this time is a waste of time. It's like car dealers when the internet first came into force. Many hated that the info of the true price of the cars was being made public and hated the competition. Others embraced it and used it to their advantage. The internet was not going away regardless how they felt and CAC is just now a fact of life
Every single work day that goes by more and more premium coins get that CAC sticker on a set of a finite number of coins in NGC and PCGS holders. And they don't sticker moderns. This means that at some point most of the premium coins in those holders will have CAC stickers. So if you don't want that sticker on there, carefully remove it. It's still a CAC coin even if reholdered. IMO having that CAC sticker on your holder benefits anyone with title ownership.
if you have a 1849 double eagle, you probably don't need it. but you might on a 1850.
What is this "CAC" anyway?
I wouldn’t say the concerns by those that have concerns about CAC are not relevant but rather those concerns are not relevant to the market in general or the movers and shakers in the industry. It may not be relevant to collectors of relatively expensive coins where the cost of grading and CAC is more likely to be recovered. And as mentioned it would be relevant to someone that amassed their collection prior to the changes in grading if the changes negatively impact the perceived value of their collection.
One thing I’d be interested in knowing is what percentage of the market is made up of coins valued under $100 between $101-500, $501-1,000 and above $1,000. Is that above $1,000 equal 90% of the market or 50%? This may provided some sense of relevance of CAC to the market as a whole.
Another indicator of relevance would be how many coins have been graded by PCGS and NGC and how many coins have been stickered by CAC? If PCGS and NGC have graded 200,000,000 coins and CAC has sticker 200,000 (those may be higher end coins) that might be a factor in determining relevance.
It's my middle name
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Good example.
We've seen photos of TPG slabbed puttied gold that had turned here.
I wonder what doctors think of CAC?
I still don't see why anyone wants to haggle about the "relevance" or "worth" of CAC. CAC is out there. Ignore it if you like. Embrace it if you like. It's your free choice. Why worry at all for how other collectors feel about it? Why advance rationale to show how others "should" feel about it?
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
It’s not haggling, it’s discussing and hopefully in the discussion we (myself included) can learn something from those on both sides of the issue.
Questions for you. Do you know what percentage of the coin market is made up of coins selling for less than $1000? Do you know what percentage of coins submitted to CAC are valued at less than $1000?
How can we talk about the relevance of CAC without knowing these numbers?
Why would we want to talk about the "relevance" of CAC? It's out there in the market. Make what use of it, if any, you think appropriate for your collecting goals..
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Had the same thing happen to me many years ago. Was eye opening (thank you JA). CAC since then has definitely saved me from buying many problem coins
Why? Because you’re not going to be able to make informed decisions without knowing the facts regarding the relevance of the sticker. We here all kinds of anecdotal evidence about the importance of the sticker. I’d be interested in hard numbers. The claim is you’re really not in the game if you’re not acknowledging CAC’s place in the industry. But what do the hard numbers (if they exist) tell you? Has Heritage or Stacks kept accurate records of the percentage of the coins they auction have CAC stickers? Are they able to calculate a premium realized based sole on having that sticker? Again, what percentage of all PCGS and NGC coins have a sticker? What percentage of the PCGS and NGC coins submitted have received a sticker? How can anyone talk about relevance without having these numbers?
But if it doesn’t sticker, does it exist or even count? Isn’t it merely expensive dreck?
Alas, I don’t think the Farouk 1933 Saint double Eagle was stickered until after the auction. I sincerely wonder whether some diehard CAC groupies thumbed their nosed at it because it hadn’t been “saved” by the coin gods. Many thought of it as a C or worse coin.
@pmh1nic , the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like. As such, in the real world, you’ve been given a ton of things to think about. By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
Enjoy collecting what you like or worry about other people's opinions of the coins you buy.
Your choice.
Just saying that the average person putting a collection together is hoping it's profitable in the long run rather than expecting a quick flip as would a dealer.
At this point the discussion has reached the usual ending: lots of words and no one is changing opinions.
In the real world numbers do exist. In many cases when the folks that have the hard numbers are unwilling to reveal them it’s because those numbers reveal a reality that doesn’t align with the claims made based on anecdotal evidence. It’s been claimed that CAC has created a market. I’d like to know how big that market is relative to the coin market in general.
Surely CAC knows the number of the PCGS and NGC coins that have been submitted that received a sticker. I’m sure PCGS and NGC know the number of coins they’ve graded and slabbed. While some of them are resubmissions the gross number gives you some idea of the total coins slabbed versus the number of stickers to give you a gross estimate (percentage) of stickered to unstickered coins and how big the CAC market really is. Calculating the average value of CAC sticker coins should be that difficult to process.
I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience.
CAC is a "requirement" for good prices, so of course the Farouk-Weitzman 1933 DE was CAC approved before the auction
CAC approval was announced on CoinWeek April 30, 2021, but occurred a few weeks earlier on April 7. The auction was over a month later on June 8, 2021.
https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/cac-verifies-grade-of-stuart-weitzman-1933-double-eagle/
CAC is mentioned in the lot description:
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman/the-1933-double-eagle
"I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience."
You sure have alot of opinions for someone who does not buy rare or expensive coins.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
"If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged."
Well perhaps . However the TPG whose slab the coin was in is considered the best so I went along with their expert opinion!
I learned my lesson !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Understand that hiring an expert is not inexpensive---they charge for auction representation. Also, I have bought coins from dealers who everyone on this board would consider an expert and later found the coin had a problem. CAC quite frankly solves alot of problem---an expert whose credentials are without question who has reviewed the coin in an impartial way. So sure you can find a lot in an auction, call the dealer you think is expert, assume that he or she will be able to see it first hand (not 100% with covid), assume they have not agreed to represent someone else, pay a fee or trust the track record of CAC.
Is it inexpensive? No. But the mark up (usually a low single digit percentage for auction representation) seemingly pales in comparison to the premiums CAC has generated for better coins. For more expensive coins, dealer mark ups in many cases were lower too especially for good customers. Now you pay the dealer mark up on top of the CAC mark up…
CAC only costs $15/coin.
How many privately owned companies disclosed confidential info?
Good to know. Pogue's family got a nice return for that $15 when selling me this!
CAC has made its fair share of errors as well. I seem to recall an altered 1856 broad struck flying Eagle cent with altered surfaces that was PCGS CAC. There’s a thread in it here somewhere. No one is perfect or will ever be perfect. There is too much group think in this hobby.
Many people on these forums have been against CAC for years and years. Back then you could buy a CAC approved coin with little premium. Yes---many advocates of CAC predicted premiums have grown so anyone pro CAC in the past has done well and those listening to the anti CAC advocates are kicking themselves. I have predicted that CAC premiums will continue to grow as the number of new CAC coins continues to decline.
@pmh1nic , I’ll repeat: the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like……By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
That’s the submission fee, not the aftermarket premium. Don’t forget about “sticker rarity.”