@Gazes said:
Also, I have bought coins from dealers who everyone on this board would consider an expert and later found the coin had a problem. CAC quite frankly solves alot of problem---an expert whose credentials are without question who has reviewed the coin in an impartial way.
CAC has made its fair share of errors as well. I seem to recall an altered 1856 broad struck flying Eagle cent with altered surfaces that was PCGS CAC. There’s a thread in it here somewhere. No one is perfect or will ever be perfect. There is too much group think in this hobby.
I dont know the coin but I do know that no one is perfect. It would seem to be a bad strategy to focus on the tiny percentage of mistakes by CAC and ignore the overwhelming quality of their service that has created a sizable premium on many of their approved coins.
@bidask said:
One time years ago I bought an early 5 dollar US gold piece.
I won’t tell you the date or whose slab
the coin was in but I will say it was before 1820 and the TPG was a major company.
The coin was graded MS 65 and I was delighted to own such a specimen !
Until I found out it has been puttied.
Who do you think told me this ?
If you had the foresight to hire an expert dealer to lot view for you or worked with an expert dealer that you trusted, the result would have been the same as getting advice from CAC. The difference between the pre CAC days was that you’d simply adjust your bid to reflect true quality rather than making assumptions/speculation that every coin in the universe that isn’t solid for the grade or better is damaged.
To put it more succinctly, CAC is a lot like Medicare Part D; there are gaps in coverage/doughnut holes that become quite pricey if you ignore them and the resulting effects.
Understand that hiring an expert is not inexpensive---they charge for auction representation. Also, I have bought coins from dealers who everyone on this board would consider an expert and later found the coin had a problem. CAC quite frankly solves alot of problem---an expert whose credentials are without question who has reviewed the coin in an impartial way. So sure you can find a lot in an auction, call the dealer you think is expert, assume that he or she will be able to see it first hand (not 100% with covid), assume they have not agreed to represent someone else, pay a fee or trust the track record of CAC.
Is it inexpensive? No. But the mark up (usually a low single digit percentage for auction representation) seemingly pales in comparison to the premiums CAC has generated for better coins. For more expensive coins, dealer mark ups in many cases were lower too especially for good customers. Now you pay the dealer mark up on top of the CAC mark up…
Many people on these forums have been against CAC for years and years. Back then you could buy a CAC approved coin with little premium. Yes---many advocates of CAC predicted premiums have grown so anyone pro CAC in the past has done well and those listening to the anti CAC advocates are kicking themselves. I have predicted that CAC premiums will continue to grow as the number of new CAC coins continues to decline.
I also don’t understand the “us” versus “them” mentality. One can be supportive of what CAC attempted, yet acknowledge that the widespread use of CAC as something it was never intended to be (I.e. a grading service) has produced unintended effects that aren’t all positive too.
@pmh1nic said:
I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience.
If nobody will provide you with the data you require to properly analyze CAC, just ignore CAC. Problem solved.
@cameonut2011 said:
One can be supportive of what CAC attempted, yet acknowledge that the widespread use of CAC as something it was never intended to be (I.e. a grading service) has produced unintended effects that aren’t all positive too.
I respectfully disagree. While some people may look at CAC as something it is not, I believe most in our hobby that include CAC’d coins in their collections understand that all that CAC is saying is that the coin is solid for the grade! Many also recognize that the CAC sticker represents that in the opinion of CAC, the surfaces have not been messed with.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like. As such, in the real world, you’ve been given a ton of things to think about. By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
Steve
In the real world numbers do exist. In many cases when the folks that have the hard numbers are unwilling to reveal them it’s because those numbers reveal a reality that doesn’t align with the claims made based on anecdotal evidence. It’s been claimed that CAC has created a market. I’d like to know how big that market is relative to the coin market in general.
Surely CAC knows the number of the PCGS and NGC coins that have been submitted that received a sticker. I’m sure PCGS and NGC know the number of coins they’ve graded and slabbed. While some of them are resubmissions the gross number gives you some idea of the total coins slabbed versus the number of stickers to give you a gross estimate (percentage) of stickered to unstickered coins and how big the CAC market really is. Calculating the average value of CAC sticker coins should be that difficult to process.
I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience.
How many privately owned companies disclosed confidential info?
Why is the number of coins stickered versus the number of coins submitted confidential? Usually private companies will hide numbers that don’t reflect well on their business. I’m not saying that’s what CAC is doing but you asked the question so I gave one of the possibilities.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
"One can be supportive of what CAC attempted, yet acknowledge that the widespread use of CAC as something it was never intended to be (I.e. a grading service) has produced unintended effects that aren’t all positive to"
What unintended effects have been produced that are not positive are you talking about ?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , I’ll repeat: the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like……By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
And the next question is why? Is it that the numbers don’t exist? Would the numbers negatively reflect on the business? Would the numbers show that in reality (rather than your anecdotal experience) the CAC sticker isn’t all that exclusive? You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
And the next question is why? Is it that the numbers don’t exist? Would the numbers negatively reflect on the business? Would the numbers show that in reality (rather than your anecdotal experience) the CAC sticker isn’t all that exclusive? You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
Clearly, the market doesn't share your concerns. Make of that what you will.
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , I’ll repeat: the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like……By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
And the next question is why? Is it that the numbers don’t exist? Would the numbers negatively reflect on the business? Would the numbers show that in reality (rather than your anecdotal experience) the CAC sticker isn’t all that exclusive? You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
Over the years, I’ve seen posts that quoted comments from JA, which provided ballpark overall CAC approval percentages.
You can also check CAC populations for various coins and compare those numbers to the total NGC and PCGS populations. That won’t tell you how many coins have been submitted, but it will give you an idea regarding how scarce the CAC populations are relative to the total populations.
You should also be able to find numerous examples of what CAC coins have sold for, compared to non-CAC coins.
If that’s insufficient data for you or others, perhaps CAC isn’t for you and there’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s more than enough for many other market participants.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@pmh1nic said:
I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience.
If nobody will provide you with the data you require to properly analyze CAC, just ignore CAC. Problem solved.
Providing the numbers is one issue. But the reason the numbers aren’t available raises other issues. As mentioned companies may avoid providing numbers for various reasons. If the CAC sticker is a sign of exclusivity do the numbers validate that claim? Some have claimed CAC has carved out a market. How large is that market relative to the whole market? If you can’t tell me that then the craved out a market statement is meaningless.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
My thoughts on CAC: (Remember, "A" and "B" graded coins get the CAC sticker. "C" graded coins do not.)
Learn what appeals to you, and go after it. By that, I mean the coins, not the stickers.
If you buy quality coins you will always find qualified buyers who don't need a "me-too" sticker.
Aesthetically speaking, the sticker hides important label information and distracts from what really matters ... the coin. Think like an artist. You wouldn't put a sticker on the Mona Lisa to prove it is a strong example of renaissance art. The sticker is indeed tacky!
"B" graded coins have the potential to be very average and unappealing.
I own a Flowing Hair half dollar graded FR02. It is the most attractive FR02 coin I have ever seen. An earlier owner did not trust what his eyes were telling him. So yeah, I do own one CAC'ed coin.
Oh, you'll like this: I have re-holdered CAC'ed coins just because that's what I think of this sticker game, lol.
PCGS standards for Plus + graded coins are much more strict than CAC standards. With that in mind, why would a Plus + graded coin ever need a sticker? Every Plus-graded coin is an "A" coin. I see it all the time. smh
About the screenshot below ... the eye appeal sucks on this sticker. Enough said.
@pmh1nic said:
Providing the numbers is one issue. But the reason the numbers aren’t available raises other issues. As mentioned companies may avoid providing numbers for various reasons. If the CAC sticker is a sign of exclusivity do the numbers validate that claim? Some have claimed CAC has carved out a market. How large is that market relative to the whole market? If you can’t tell me that then the craved out a market statement is meaningless.
@pmh1nic said:
And the next question is why?..…You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
As Alfred Lord Tennyson wrote, “Ours is not to reason why. Ours is just to do or die”.
Yes the answers to your questions would indeed be helpful, and you can repeat those same questions for the next 10 pages, but you’re not going to get all of the answers you’d like to get. That’s the reality!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , I’ll repeat: the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like……By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
And the next question is why? Is it that the numbers don’t exist? Would the numbers negatively reflect on the business? Would the numbers show that in reality (rather than your anecdotal experience) the CAC sticker isn’t all that exclusive? You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
Over the years, I’ve seen posts that quoted comments from JA, which provided ballpark overall CAC approval percentages.
You can also check CAC populations for various coins and compare those numbers to the total NGC and PCGS populations. That won’t tell you how many coins have been submitted, but it will give you an idea regarding how scarce the CAC populations are relative to the total populations.
You should also be able to find numerous examples of what CAC coins have sold for, compared to non-CAC coins.
If that’s insufficient data for you or others, perhaps CAC isn’t for you and there’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s more than enough for many other market participants.
Good points. Part of the back and forth is that anecdotal evidence offered by some to demonstrate how much of an asset CAC is is expected to be embraced as if it’s the product of hard statistics regarding the size of the CAC market, the typical value range of coins submitted, the exclusivity of the CAC sticker. Those assertions are nothing more than anecdotes or can be taken as hyperbole to hype the coins some folks buy/sell.
Also just to be clear, my comments one way or the other should NOT be interpreted as having any bias for or against CAC. I don’t own and have never purchased a CAC coin. Some claim the comments in this thread should make the situation clear regarding CAC and the coin market as if their personal experience answers the fundamental questions I’ve asked about market size, reject rates, average value of coins submitted, etc. Unfortunately they don’t.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Some claim the comments in this thread should make the situation clear regarding CAC and the coin market as if their personal experience answers the fundamental questions I’ve asked about market size, reject rates, average value of coins submitted, etc. Unfortunately they don’t.
Then ignore CAC and get on with your life. Seems pretty straightforward.
@pmh1nic said:
And the next question is why?..…You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
As Alfred Lord Tennyson wrote, “Ours is not to reason why. Ours is just to do or die”.
Yes the answers to your questions would indeed be helpful, and you can repeat those same questions for the next 10 pages, but you’re not going to get all of the answers you’d like to get. That’s the reality!
I understand what you are saying and the reality of the situation. Does it bother you that the answer to those questions are not available? I’m sure I’m not the first person to ask these questions.
Everyone is free to spend their money however they want and I’m not owed an answer for how they spend their money. But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic , the reality is you’re not going to get the hard numbers you’d like. As such, in the real world, you’ve been given a ton of things to think about. By now, you should have been able to decide what role, if any, CAC should play in YOUR collection!
Steve
In the real world numbers do exist. In many cases when the folks that have the hard numbers are unwilling to reveal them it’s because those numbers reveal a reality that doesn’t align with the claims made based on anecdotal evidence. It’s been claimed that CAC has created a market. I’d like to know how big that market is relative to the coin market in general.
Surely CAC knows the number of the PCGS and NGC coins that have been submitted that received a sticker. I’m sure PCGS and NGC know the number of coins they’ve graded and slabbed. While some of them are resubmissions the gross number gives you some idea of the total coins slabbed versus the number of stickers to give you a gross estimate (percentage) of stickered to unstickered coins and how big the CAC market really is. Calculating the average value of CAC sticker coins should be that difficult to process.
I could go on but you get the point. You can make claims about what CAC means to the market based on anecdotal evidence but unless you have hard numbers counter claims can be made by others with a different experience.
@pmh1nic said:
And the next question is why?..…You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
As Alfred Lord Tennyson wrote, “Ours is not to reason why. Ours is just to do or die”.
Yes the answers to your questions would indeed be helpful, and you can repeat those same questions for the next 10 pages, but you’re not going to get all of the answers you’d like to get. That’s the reality!
I understand what you are saying and the reality of the situation. Does it bother you that the answer to those questions are not available? I’m sure I’m not the first person to ask these questions.
Everyone is free to spend their money however they want and I’m not owed an answer for how they spend their money. But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
It is disingenuous at best to say that premiums are based on "certain claims made". A price reflects what an owner feels a buyer is likely to be willing to pay. Why any particular buyer will pay any particular price is impossible to ascribe to any quantifiable discrete factor.
"But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
As Mr Feld indicated you can check auction records where significant premiums have been paid for CAC coins.
Have you done that ?
Your in a sandbox you admittedly don't play in .....
Your questions are not basic IMO.
No respect to you personally but I find your questions somewhat rambling ...
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@pmh1nic said:
But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
It would appear the market isn't overly concerned with what you'd like.
@pmh1nic said:
Some claim the comments in this thread should make the situation clear regarding CAC and the coin market as if their personal experience answers the fundamental questions I’ve asked about market size, reject rates, average value of coins submitted, etc. Unfortunately they don’t.
Then ignore CAC and get on with your life. Seems pretty straightforward.
If that’s the best you’ve got maybe you should ignore the tread and get on with your life. I’ve asked some very basic questions. There are those making claims about CAC but can’t answer these basic questions.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Some claim the comments in this thread should make the situation clear regarding CAC and the coin market as if their personal experience answers the fundamental questions I’ve asked about market size, reject rates, average value of coins submitted, etc. Unfortunately they don’t.
Then ignore CAC and get on with your life. Seems pretty straightforward.
If that’s the best you’ve got maybe you should ignore the tread and get on with your life. I’ve asked some very basic questions. There are those making claims about CAC but can’t answer these basic questions.
I certainly am pro CAC but I'm not making "claims" . I have more than enough information to make my own determination whether CAC is appropriate for my collection. When you say "those making claims about cac... cant answer these basic questions" you make it seem like we are trying to sell you something. Do whatever you want---It has no impact on me. Trying to give you my best opinion but if you feel like we cant answer your basic questions then please dont feel compelled to purchase CAC coins.
@bidask said:
"But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
As Mr Feld indicated you can check auction records where significant premiums have been paid for CAC coins.
Have you done that ?
Your in a sandbox you admittedly don't play in .....
Your questions are not basic IMO.
No respect to you personally but I find your questions somewhat rambling ...
Have you done that (researched the answers) or do you (respectfully) just blindly follow the crowd? My “rambling” questions are to make a point. There are some folks that speak definitively about what CAC is or is not. They make claims about the market created by CAC but can provide no idea of the size of that market versus the market in general. They speak definitely about the justification for paying premiums for CAC coins, give reasons why $30 coins should be submitted as well as $3,000 or 30,000 coins, rave about the accuracy of CAC evaluation ALL based on anecdotal evidence. No one has said the questions I’ve asked aren’t valid questions. No one has said the answers to these question would not shed light on the value or lack of value CAC brings to the market. But some attempt to trivialize the question by saying “you’re not going to get an answer”.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
It would appear the market isn't overly concerned with what you'd like.
Just sayin'.
Don’t make it personal. This tread isn’t about what I like. It’s been an opportunity for others to share their opinion about the value or lack of value with respect to CAC. Beyond hearing about personal views and experience there was also an attempt to get some empirical information on CAC relative to the market in general. It seems no one has bothered to do that research and is satisfied with anecdotes possibly because the information to do that and get definitive answers isn’t available.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Some claim the comments in this thread should make the situation clear regarding CAC and the coin market as if their personal experience answers the fundamental questions I’ve asked about market size, reject rates, average value of coins submitted, etc. Unfortunately they don’t.
Then ignore CAC and get on with your life. Seems pretty straightforward.
If that’s the best you’ve got maybe you should ignore the tread and get on with your life. I’ve asked some very basic questions. There are those making claims about CAC but can’t answer these basic questions.
I certainly am pro CAC but I'm not making "claims" . I have more than enough information to make my own determination whether CAC is appropriate for my collection. When you say "those making claims about cac... cant answer these basic questions" you make it seem like we are trying to sell you something. Do whatever you want---It has no impact on me. Trying to give you my best opinion but if you feel like we cant answer your basic questions then please dont feel compelled to purchase CAC coins.
Wrong, I haven’t viewed any of the response as someone trying to sell me something.
Question, what information did you use to determine “CAC was appropriate for” your collection? Do you know the total population graded by PCGS and NGC for each of the coins in your collection? Out of those populations do you know the number of coins stickered by CAC? Did you check prices realized over the last few years to determine if a significant premium was realized for the CAC versus non-CAC coins?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Some claim the comments in this thread should make the situation clear regarding CAC and the coin market as if their personal experience answers the fundamental questions I’ve asked about market size, reject rates, average value of coins submitted, etc. Unfortunately they don’t.
Then ignore CAC and get on with your life. Seems pretty straightforward.
If that’s the best you’ve got maybe you should ignore the tread and get on with your life. I’ve asked some very basic questions. There are those making claims about CAC but can’t answer these basic questions.
I certainly am pro CAC but I'm not making "claims" . I have more than enough information to make my own determination whether CAC is appropriate for my collection. When you say "those making claims about cac... cant answer these basic questions" you make it seem like we are trying to sell you something. Do whatever you want---It has no impact on me. Trying to give you my best opinion but if you feel like we cant answer your basic questions then please dont feel compelled to purchase CAC coins.
Wrong, I haven’t viewed any of the response as someone trying to sell me something.
Question, what information did you use to determine “CAC was appropriate for” your collection? Do you know the total population graded by PCGS and NGC for each of the coins in your collection? Out of those populations do you know the number of coins stickered by CAC? Did you check prices realized over the last few years to determine if a significant premium was realized for the CAC versus non-CAC coins?
As @edwardjulio said above, CAC is for me. I dont have the same questions or concerns you have so I'm not going to try and answer all your questions. My questions have been answered so I'm done with this thread. Good luck
I have several CAC coins in my collection and have not regretted buying them. It seems that many, right or wrong, consider a non-CAC coin to be deficient in some way. At what price do people start assuming that a non-CAC coin has been to CAC and failed? Since most of my coins are $500 and under I’m guessing that most have not been submitted. But what about $1000 coins? $10,000 coins? Does the price disparity (in percentage terms) tend to become larger at higher price levels? I know that this depends partly on the series but am curious to hear people’s thoughts.
@KSorbo said:
I have several CAC coins in my collection and have not regretted buying them. It seems that many, right or wrong, consider a non-CAC coin to be deficient in some way. At what price do people start assuming that a non-CAC coin has been to CAC and failed? Since most of my coins are $500 and under I’m guessing that most have not been submitted. But what about $1000 coins? $10,000 coins? Does the price disparity (in percentage terms) tend to become larger at higher price levels? I know that this depends partly on the series but am curious to hear people’s thoughts.
Some have mentioned there is a profitability or educational benefit in sending in less expensive coins (under $100) but I don’t really see that unless you could realize a significant premium (enough to cover the time and expense of submission) or you got some detailed explanation as to why a coin merited or did not merit a sticker.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@JonBrand83 said:
I care as well. Only for CAC, not the others such as PQ.
Not because of the resale value. I care because I believe most stickered coins are indeed nicer examples amongst others of the same grade. It can help weed out some coins from better coins when quickly looking at hundreds of them. I have seen a few examples of stickered coins that were fairly mind boggling, but most seem to be deserved, IMO.
Whether a coin merited a sticker or not is based on the individual coin in question but the sticker is an attention getter. I guess someone could argue that the attention it brings adds value.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@bidask said:
"But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
As Mr Feld indicated you can check auction records where significant premiums have been paid for CAC coins.
Have you done that ?
Your in a sandbox you admittedly don't play in .....
Your questions are not basic IMO.
No respect to you personally but I find your questions somewhat rambling ...
Have you done that (researched the answers) or do you (respectfully) just blindly follow the crowd? My “rambling” questions are to make a point. There are some folks that speak definitively about what CAC is or is not. They make claims about the market created by CAC but can provide no idea of the size of that market versus the market in general. They speak definitely about the justification for paying premiums for CAC coins, give reasons why $30 coins should be submitted as well as $3,000 or 30,000 coins, rave about the accuracy of CAC evaluation ALL based on anecdotal evidence. No one has said the questions I’ve asked aren’t valid questions. No one has said the answers to these question would not shed light on the value or lack of value CAC brings to the market. But some attempt to trivialize the question by saying “you’re not going to get an answer”.
Maybe you'd like to know the answers, but none of your questions really matter in determining the value of CAC.
What matters in determining the value of CAC is whether CAC-stickered coins sell for more money.
You want data? It's all at your own fingertips.
1. Pick a coin.
2. Go to HA.com and look up the real-life auction prices over the past year of non-CAC examples.
3. Look up the real-life auction prices over the past year of CAC examples.
4. Done.
I'll even do one for you. Take a 1924 $20 Saint in PCGS MS 66 as an example. Look up the values on Heritage since August 2020.
-1924 $20 PCGS MS 66 (average since 8/2020): $2,966
-1924 $20 PCGS MS 66 CAC (average since 8/2020): $4,320
@bidask said:
"But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
As Mr Feld indicated you can check auction records where significant premiums have been paid for CAC coins.
Have you done that ?
Your in a sandbox you admittedly don't play in .....
Your questions are not basic IMO.
No respect to you personally but I find your questions somewhat rambling ...
Have you done that (researched the answers) or do you (respectfully) just blindly follow the crowd? My “rambling” questions are to make a point. There are some folks that speak definitively about what CAC is or is not. They make claims about the market created by CAC but can provide no idea of the size of that market versus the market in general. They speak definitely about the justification for paying premiums for CAC coins, give reasons why $30 coins should be submitted as well as $3,000 or 30,000 coins, rave about the accuracy of CAC evaluation ALL based on anecdotal evidence. No one has said the questions I’ve asked aren’t valid questions. No one has said the answers to these question would not shed light on the value or lack of value CAC brings to the market. But some attempt to trivialize the question by saying “you’re not going to get an answer”.
Maybe you'd like to know the answers, but none of your questions really matter in determining the value of CAC.
What matters in determining the value of CAC is whether CAC-stickered coins sell for more money.
You want data? It's all at your own fingertips.
1. Pick a coin.
2. Go to HA.com and look up the real-life auction prices over the past year of non-CAC examples.
3. Look up the real-life auction prices over the past year of CAC examples.
4. Done.
I'll even do one for you. Take a 1924 $20 Saint in PCGS MS 66 as an example. Look up the values on Heritage since August 2020.
-1924 $20 PCGS MS 66 (average since 8/2020): $2,966
-1924 $20 PCGS MS 66 CAC (average since 8/2020): $4,320
Then decide for yourself the value of CAC.
How many coins has CAC reviewed? How many coins have they sticker? You’ve given one example and consider it evidence that in general there is a benefit to CAC across the broad spectrum of coins that have every been submitted, stickered and sold.
Again, this tread isn’t about me, it’s about hearing from others what underlies their confidence or lack of confidence in the value of CAC. I’ve asked some questions related to how that value might be determined. You replied with an isolated example. O.k., example acknowledged.
I don’t know the answer to the questions asked. Apparently no one else does. I don’t have an opinion about CAC one way or another given a lack of information and the lack of experience in my part.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
For me, for expensive coins I always assume that most every coin has been sent to CAC. So if the PCGS pop report is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade. Like others said, this information is not that useful to me to determine if CAC gives a coin a premium. I just look at auction data and it's plain as day that CAC coins sell for a premium. And that is also exactly why I can assume most of the coins have been submitted to CAC. If you have a coin that you are selling, it would be stupid to not send it to CAC unless you know for sure it won't be stickered for some reason.
@ChocoboLee said:
For me, for expensive coins I always assume that most every coin has been sent to CAC. So if the PCGS pop report is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade. Like others said, this information is not that useful to me to determine if CAC gives a coin a premium. I just look at auction data and it's plain as day that CAC coins sell for a premium. And that is also exactly why I can assume most of the coins have been submitted to CAC. If you have a coin that you are selling, it would be stupid to not send it to CAC unless you know for sure it won't be stickered for some reason.
I don’t know why I’m still posting on this thread, silly me! But a tiny correction to your first point. CAC pops include NGC coins too, with no differentiation between how many of those CAC stickers are on PCGS coins and how many are on NGC coins. As such, in your fictitious example, you can say, “So if the PCGS and NGC combined pop reports is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade.
For @pmh1nic , here’s some info you might find of interest:
Take a look at lots offered in Heritage Auctions, either current or past. For each lot, Heritage shows a table for all coins in that date - how many are in that grade of the lot being offered (PCGS Pop, NGC Pop, and of those, how many have CAC’s). This allows you to easily calculate the % of total PCGS and NGC in that grade that have CAC’s, but NOT broken down of PCGS vs. NGC with CAC’s. Keep in mind that not every coin has automatically been submitted to CAC. That same table also has this same data for coins in this date graded higher (as a group), and also shows the data for ALL coins of this date for ALL grades (but chances are very high that since this latter data includes all lower grades too, the odds increase that more of those lower grade coins have not been submitted to CAC). My verbiage sounds confusing, but look at the table of a coin that might sell for about $1,000 or so, and then all of a sudden what I’m trying to say will be much clearer. While not perfect, I find these tables provide useful data.
From having looked at thousands of the above tables, my sense is that for silver and copper coins valued from about $500 - $3,000, as a generalization, about 15% - 25% of the coins have CAC’s. For gold coins valued from about $1,000 - $5,000, as a generalization, about 5% - 8% or so of the coins have a CAC.
As I search auctions for coins I need, I use their filters. Since I’m looking for coins with CAC’s that are also graded just by PCGS, I see virtually all of the time that of all of the coins in an entire auction with a CAC, remarkably around 85% or so of those are graded by PCGS. Sometimes as low as 80%, sometimes as high as 90%, but mostly around the middle. For example, using their filters, in the upcoming Heritage Long Beach auction, there are 212 coins with CAC’s. Of those, 171 are graded by PCGS (80.66%).
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@pmh1nic you are asking the wrong people for the “hard data” you want. None of us, that I know of, are executives at any of the involved companies. So your best bet is to make inquiries at each of the companies directly or perhaps poll a random sample of dealers, etc.
That way we end this never ending circle of posts and you can inform us of the results of your analysis plus raw data and methods.
@TurtleCat said: @pmh1nic you are asking the wrong people for the “hard data” you want. None of us, that I know of, are executives at any of the involved companies. So your best bet is to make inquiries at each of the companies directly or perhaps poll a random sample of dealers, etc.
That way we end this never ending circle of posts and you can inform us of the results of your analysis plus raw data and methods.
While I haven’t seen it myself, I was told that CAC publishes their sticker/pass rate in Coin World ads and that the figure is approximately 41%.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TurtleCat said: @pmh1nic you are asking the wrong people for the “hard data” you want. None of us, that I know of, are executives at any of the involved companies. So your best bet is to make inquiries at each of the companies directly or perhaps poll a random sample of dealers, etc.
That way we end this never ending circle of posts and you can inform us of the results of your analysis plus raw data and methods.
While I haven’t seen it myself, I was told that CAC publishes their sticker/pass rate in Coin World ads and that the figure is approximately 41%.
Somehow I would suspect he would not consider that hard data or reliable data.
@amwldcoin said:
Hmmmm...show me where CAC backs their stickers with cold, hard, cash? The best I can see is if he needs something at the time. There is no stated guarantee. For what I deal in you had better offer the coins to me because I will blow his offer prices away!
They have bids on CDN for things as I am aware. That's how they make their money, as a CAC wholesaler, beans are only a fraction of their revenues at this point. The beans are a means to the greater means, not a means to an end.
You can also email them and get an offer on generics, or you can mail better stuff in for an offer after talking to them in advance. I've personally never sold a coin to them, but thats because the market for CAC stickers in the material I deal with is so strong. The offers I've received on coins from them were above generic wholesale but well below what I could get from the general public, so I haven't accepted one at this time. Then again, I don't think they're super interested in the stuff I've got to move, and focus more on the higher end of the spectrum.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@jackpine20 said:
My thoughts on CAC: (Remember, "A" and "B" graded coins get the CAC sticker. "C" graded coins do not.)
PCGS standards for Plus + graded coins are much more strict than CAC standards. With that in mind, why would a Plus + graded coin ever need a sticker? Every Plus-graded coin is an "A" coin. I see it all the time. smh
Yet, there are Plus+graded coins that did not sticker! I know, I tried with one. Because they have been "messed"?
@ChocoboLee said:
For me, for expensive coins I always assume that most every coin has been sent to CAC. So if the PCGS pop report is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade. Like others said, this information is not that useful to me to determine if CAC gives a coin a premium. I just look at auction data and it's plain as day that CAC coins sell for a premium. And that is also exactly why I can assume most of the coins have been submitted to CAC. If you have a coin that you are selling, it would be stupid to not send it to CAC unless you know for sure it won't be stickered for some reason.
Thanks for the info. Do you think the CAC premium you seen in the particular coins you’ve reviewed holds true for all coins regardless of value? What were the special coins you reviewed? Can you give a ballpark of the premiums realized with the CAC coins versus the value of the coins (a 20% premium on a $1000 coin, etc.)?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@ChocoboLee said:
For me, for expensive coins I always assume that most every coin has been sent to CAC. So if the PCGS pop report is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade. Like others said, this information is not that useful to me to determine if CAC gives a coin a premium. I just look at auction data and it's plain as day that CAC coins sell for a premium. And that is also exactly why I can assume most of the coins have been submitted to CAC. If you have a coin that you are selling, it would be stupid to not send it to CAC unless you know for sure it won't be stickered for some reason.
I don’t know why I’m still posting on this thread, silly me! But a tiny correction to your first point. CAC pops include NGC coins too, with no differentiation between how many of those CAC stickers are on PCGS coins and how many are on NGC coins. As such, in your fictitious example, you can say, “So if the PCGS and NGC combined pop reports is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade.
For @pmh1nic , here’s some info you might find of interest:
Take a look at lots offered in Heritage Auctions, either current or past. For each lot, Heritage shows a table for all coins in that date - how many are in that grade of the lot being offered (PCGS Pop, NGC Pop, and of those, how many have CAC’s). This allows you to easily calculate the % of total PCGS and NGC in that grade that have CAC’s, but NOT broken down of PCGS vs. NGC with CAC’s. Keep in mind that not every coin has automatically been submitted to CAC. That same table also has this same data for coins in this date graded higher (as a group), and also shows the data for ALL coins of this date for ALL grades (but chances are very high that since this latter data includes all lower grades too, the odds increase that more of those lower grade coins have not been submitted to CAC). My verbiage sounds confusing, but look at the table of a coin that might sell for about $1,000 or so, and then all of a sudden what I’m trying to say will be much clearer. While not perfect, I find these tables provide useful data.
From having looked at thousands of the above tables, my sense is that for silver and copper coins valued from about $500 - $3,000, as a generalization, about 15% - 25% of the coins have CAC’s. For gold coins valued from about $1,000 - $5,000, as a generalization, about 5% - 8% or so of the coins have a CAC.
As I search auctions for coins I need, I use their filters. Since I’m looking for coins with CAC’s that are also graded just by PCGS, I see virtually all of the time that of all of the coins in an entire auction with a CAC, remarkably around 85% or so of those are graded by PCGS. Sometimes as low as 80%, sometimes as high as 90%, but mostly around the middle. For example, using their filters, in the upcoming Heritage Long Beach auction, there are 212 coins with CAC’s. Of those, 171 are graded by PCGS (80.66%).
Steve
You’re a man after my own heart. Before I begin this research (which I will do) let me ask you.
Do both PCGS and NGC have pretty comprehensive population reports? I believe the reports include year, variety, number in grade and maybe other useful information that would be helpful. It’s been a while since I really studied the reports.
Does CAC have a publicly available report on the number of coins they sticker broken down by denomination, year and TPG grade?
Does CAC publish total number of coins submitted and not stickered?
If this information is available I think it would make for a great article in Coinworld or some other numismatic publication. It seems to be a subject many are interested in and if the information is readily available and can be use to arrive at some conclusions I think they would consider it for publication. I’ve written two articles for them in the past (expectations of prices realized in the first S.S. Central America auction and one on a rare 1845-D $5 die variety) and I think this type of article would be something they’d run with baring pushback from one of the companies mentioned in the article.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@TurtleCat said: @pmh1nic you are asking the wrong people for the “hard data” you want. None of us, that I know of, are executives at any of the involved companies. So your best bet is to make inquiries at each of the companies directly or perhaps poll a random sample of dealers, etc.
That way we end this never ending circle of posts and you can inform us of the results of your analysis plus raw data and methods.
While I haven’t seen it myself, I was told that CAC publishes their sticker/pass rate in Coin World ads and that the figure is approximately 41%.
Somehow I would suspect he would not consider that hard data or reliable data.
Actually I think that would be helpful hard data.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@TurtleCat said: @pmh1nic you are asking the wrong people for the “hard data” you want. None of us, that I know of, are executives at any of the involved companies. So your best bet is to make inquiries at each of the companies directly or perhaps poll a random sample of dealers, etc.
That way we end this never ending circle of posts and you can inform us of the results of your analysis plus raw data and methods.
While I haven’t seen it myself, I was told that CAC publishes their sticker/pass rate in Coin World ads and that the figure is approximately 41%.
Somehow I would suspect he would not consider that hard data or reliable data.
Actually I think that would be helpful hard data.
Since it’s data you would be interested in, perhaps your inquiring of the vendors will get you more up to date information?
1) have you reached out to CAC for information?
2) what coins do you collect ?
3) what price range do you collect?
4) what research have you done ? Be specific.
5) how long have you collected?
6) how often do you buy and sell?
7) can you give us a chart showing your performance when you have bought and sold ?
8) where do you buy your coins?
9) what is your grading experience? Please list your favorite numismatic grading books?
Comments
I dont know the coin but I do know that no one is perfect. It would seem to be a bad strategy to focus on the tiny percentage of mistakes by CAC and ignore the overwhelming quality of their service that has created a sizable premium on many of their approved coins.
I also don’t understand the “us” versus “them” mentality. One can be supportive of what CAC attempted, yet acknowledge that the widespread use of CAC as something it was never intended to be (I.e. a grading service) has produced unintended effects that aren’t all positive too.
If nobody will provide you with the data you require to properly analyze CAC, just ignore CAC. Problem solved.
I respectfully disagree. While some people may look at CAC as something it is not, I believe most in our hobby that include CAC’d coins in their collections understand that all that CAC is saying is that the coin is solid for the grade! Many also recognize that the CAC sticker represents that in the opinion of CAC, the surfaces have not been messed with.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Why is the number of coins stickered versus the number of coins submitted confidential? Usually private companies will hide numbers that don’t reflect well on their business. I’m not saying that’s what CAC is doing but you asked the question so I gave one of the possibilities.
"One can be supportive of what CAC attempted, yet acknowledge that the widespread use of CAC as something it was never intended to be (I.e. a grading service) has produced unintended effects that aren’t all positive to"
What unintended effects have been produced that are not positive are you talking about ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
And the next question is why? Is it that the numbers don’t exist? Would the numbers negatively reflect on the business? Would the numbers show that in reality (rather than your anecdotal experience) the CAC sticker isn’t all that exclusive? You don’t negate the validity of those questions with “you’re not going to get the numbers”.
Clearly, the market doesn't share your concerns. Make of that what you will.
Over the years, I’ve seen posts that quoted comments from JA, which provided ballpark overall CAC approval percentages.
You can also check CAC populations for various coins and compare those numbers to the total NGC and PCGS populations. That won’t tell you how many coins have been submitted, but it will give you an idea regarding how scarce the CAC populations are relative to the total populations.
You should also be able to find numerous examples of what CAC coins have sold for, compared to non-CAC coins.
If that’s insufficient data for you or others, perhaps CAC isn’t for you and there’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s more than enough for many other market participants.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Providing the numbers is one issue. But the reason the numbers aren’t available raises other issues. As mentioned companies may avoid providing numbers for various reasons. If the CAC sticker is a sign of exclusivity do the numbers validate that claim? Some have claimed CAC has carved out a market. How large is that market relative to the whole market? If you can’t tell me that then the craved out a market statement is meaningless.
My thoughts on CAC: (Remember, "A" and "B" graded coins get the CAC sticker. "C" graded coins do not.)
About the screenshot below ... the eye appeal sucks on this sticker. Enough said.
Matt Snebold
Them ignore CAC. Problem solved.
As Alfred Lord Tennyson wrote, “Ours is not to reason why. Ours is just to do or die”.
Yes the answers to your questions would indeed be helpful, and you can repeat those same questions for the next 10 pages, but you’re not going to get all of the answers you’d like to get. That’s the reality!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Good points. Part of the back and forth is that anecdotal evidence offered by some to demonstrate how much of an asset CAC is is expected to be embraced as if it’s the product of hard statistics regarding the size of the CAC market, the typical value range of coins submitted, the exclusivity of the CAC sticker. Those assertions are nothing more than anecdotes or can be taken as hyperbole to hype the coins some folks buy/sell.
Also just to be clear, my comments one way or the other should NOT be interpreted as having any bias for or against CAC. I don’t own and have never purchased a CAC coin. Some claim the comments in this thread should make the situation clear regarding CAC and the coin market as if their personal experience answers the fundamental questions I’ve asked about market size, reject rates, average value of coins submitted, etc. Unfortunately they don’t.
Then ignore CAC and get on with your life. Seems pretty straightforward.
I understand what you are saying and the reality of the situation. Does it bother you that the answer to those questions are not available? I’m sure I’m not the first person to ask these questions.
Everyone is free to spend their money however they want and I’m not owed an answer for how they spend their money. But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
It is disingenuous at best to say that premiums are based on "certain claims made". A price reflects what an owner feels a buyer is likely to be willing to pay. Why any particular buyer will pay any particular price is impossible to ascribe to any quantifiable discrete factor.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
"But when I ask what I think are basic questions about something where significant premiums are based on certain claims made I’d like to get more than just “you’re never going to get the answers” or in essence “go find somewhere else to play” (putting it mildly).
As Mr Feld indicated you can check auction records where significant premiums have been paid for CAC coins.
Have you done that ?
Your in a sandbox you admittedly don't play in .....
Your questions are not basic IMO.
No respect to you personally but I find your questions somewhat rambling ...
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It would appear the market isn't overly concerned with what you'd like.
Just sayin'.
Wazzit-worth? Wazzit-worth?
My Saint Set
If that’s the best you’ve got maybe you should ignore the tread and get on with your life. I’ve asked some very basic questions. There are those making claims about CAC but can’t answer these basic questions.
You've got to lift a glass first to see what you're buying, most don't but buy anyway. Perhaps the sweet justice or failure to it all.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I certainly am pro CAC but I'm not making "claims" . I have more than enough information to make my own determination whether CAC is appropriate for my collection. When you say "those making claims about cac... cant answer these basic questions" you make it seem like we are trying to sell you something. Do whatever you want---It has no impact on me. Trying to give you my best opinion but if you feel like we cant answer your basic questions then please dont feel compelled to purchase CAC coins.
Have you done that (researched the answers) or do you (respectfully) just blindly follow the crowd? My “rambling” questions are to make a point. There are some folks that speak definitively about what CAC is or is not. They make claims about the market created by CAC but can provide no idea of the size of that market versus the market in general. They speak definitely about the justification for paying premiums for CAC coins, give reasons why $30 coins should be submitted as well as $3,000 or 30,000 coins, rave about the accuracy of CAC evaluation ALL based on anecdotal evidence. No one has said the questions I’ve asked aren’t valid questions. No one has said the answers to these question would not shed light on the value or lack of value CAC brings to the market. But some attempt to trivialize the question by saying “you’re not going to get an answer”.
.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All of Us
ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
Have you researched what CAC stickered coins bring in auctions?
If so what did you learn?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Don’t make it personal. This tread isn’t about what I like. It’s been an opportunity for others to share their opinion about the value or lack of value with respect to CAC. Beyond hearing about personal views and experience there was also an attempt to get some empirical information on CAC relative to the market in general. It seems no one has bothered to do that research and is satisfied with anecdotes possibly because the information to do that and get definitive answers isn’t available.
Wrong, I haven’t viewed any of the response as someone trying to sell me something.
Question, what information did you use to determine “CAC was appropriate for” your collection? Do you know the total population graded by PCGS and NGC for each of the coins in your collection? Out of those populations do you know the number of coins stickered by CAC? Did you check prices realized over the last few years to determine if a significant premium was realized for the CAC versus non-CAC coins?
As @edwardjulio said above, CAC is for me. I dont have the same questions or concerns you have so I'm not going to try and answer all your questions. My questions have been answered so I'm done with this thread. Good luck
Yeah, I know. Your point: "Other people don't agree with my point of view, and they're wrong."
I have several CAC coins in my collection and have not regretted buying them. It seems that many, right or wrong, consider a non-CAC coin to be deficient in some way. At what price do people start assuming that a non-CAC coin has been to CAC and failed? Since most of my coins are $500 and under I’m guessing that most have not been submitted. But what about $1000 coins? $10,000 coins? Does the price disparity (in percentage terms) tend to become larger at higher price levels? I know that this depends partly on the series but am curious to hear people’s thoughts.
Some have mentioned there is a profitability or educational benefit in sending in less expensive coins (under $100) but I don’t really see that unless you could realize a significant premium (enough to cover the time and expense of submission) or you got some detailed explanation as to why a coin merited or did not merit a sticker.
Whether a coin merited a sticker or not is based on the individual coin in question but the sticker is an attention getter. I guess someone could argue that the attention it brings adds value.
Maybe you'd like to know the answers, but none of your questions really matter in determining the value of CAC.
What matters in determining the value of CAC is whether CAC-stickered coins sell for more money.
You want data? It's all at your own fingertips.
1. Pick a coin.
2. Go to HA.com and look up the real-life auction prices over the past year of non-CAC examples.
3. Look up the real-life auction prices over the past year of CAC examples.
4. Done.
I'll even do one for you. Take a 1924 $20 Saint in PCGS MS 66 as an example. Look up the values on Heritage since August 2020.
-1924 $20 PCGS MS 66 (average since 8/2020): $2,966
-1924 $20 PCGS MS 66 CAC (average since 8/2020): $4,320
Then decide for yourself the value of CAC.
Trolin', trollin' trollin', keeps the thread a-rollin'...
How many coins has CAC reviewed? How many coins have they sticker? You’ve given one example and consider it evidence that in general there is a benefit to CAC across the broad spectrum of coins that have every been submitted, stickered and sold.
Again, this tread isn’t about me, it’s about hearing from others what underlies their confidence or lack of confidence in the value of CAC. I’ve asked some questions related to how that value might be determined. You replied with an isolated example. O.k., example acknowledged.
I don’t know the answer to the questions asked. Apparently no one else does. I don’t have an opinion about CAC one way or another given a lack of information and the lack of experience in my part.
For me, for expensive coins I always assume that most every coin has been sent to CAC. So if the PCGS pop report is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade. Like others said, this information is not that useful to me to determine if CAC gives a coin a premium. I just look at auction data and it's plain as day that CAC coins sell for a premium. And that is also exactly why I can assume most of the coins have been submitted to CAC. If you have a coin that you are selling, it would be stupid to not send it to CAC unless you know for sure it won't be stickered for some reason.
Follow me on MyCollect!
I don’t know why I’m still posting on this thread, silly me! But a tiny correction to your first point. CAC pops include NGC coins too, with no differentiation between how many of those CAC stickers are on PCGS coins and how many are on NGC coins. As such, in your fictitious example, you can say, “So if the PCGS and NGC combined pop reports is 10 and CAC is 3, then it's 30% stickered for that grade.
For @pmh1nic , here’s some info you might find of interest:
Take a look at lots offered in Heritage Auctions, either current or past. For each lot, Heritage shows a table for all coins in that date - how many are in that grade of the lot being offered (PCGS Pop, NGC Pop, and of those, how many have CAC’s). This allows you to easily calculate the % of total PCGS and NGC in that grade that have CAC’s, but NOT broken down of PCGS vs. NGC with CAC’s. Keep in mind that not every coin has automatically been submitted to CAC. That same table also has this same data for coins in this date graded higher (as a group), and also shows the data for ALL coins of this date for ALL grades (but chances are very high that since this latter data includes all lower grades too, the odds increase that more of those lower grade coins have not been submitted to CAC). My verbiage sounds confusing, but look at the table of a coin that might sell for about $1,000 or so, and then all of a sudden what I’m trying to say will be much clearer. While not perfect, I find these tables provide useful data.
From having looked at thousands of the above tables, my sense is that for silver and copper coins valued from about $500 - $3,000, as a generalization, about 15% - 25% of the coins have CAC’s. For gold coins valued from about $1,000 - $5,000, as a generalization, about 5% - 8% or so of the coins have a CAC.
As I search auctions for coins I need, I use their filters. Since I’m looking for coins with CAC’s that are also graded just by PCGS, I see virtually all of the time that of all of the coins in an entire auction with a CAC, remarkably around 85% or so of those are graded by PCGS. Sometimes as low as 80%, sometimes as high as 90%, but mostly around the middle. For example, using their filters, in the upcoming Heritage Long Beach auction, there are 212 coins with CAC’s. Of those, 171 are graded by PCGS (80.66%).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@pmh1nic you are asking the wrong people for the “hard data” you want. None of us, that I know of, are executives at any of the involved companies. So your best bet is to make inquiries at each of the companies directly or perhaps poll a random sample of dealers, etc.
That way we end this never ending circle of posts and you can inform us of the results of your analysis plus raw data and methods.
CAC - PQ - W - etc. I still don't care.
While I haven’t seen it myself, I was told that CAC publishes their sticker/pass rate in Coin World ads and that the figure is approximately 41%.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
RAWHIDE!
Somehow I would suspect he would not consider that hard data or reliable data.
They have bids on CDN for things as I am aware. That's how they make their money, as a CAC wholesaler, beans are only a fraction of their revenues at this point. The beans are a means to the greater means, not a means to an end.
You can also email them and get an offer on generics, or you can mail better stuff in for an offer after talking to them in advance. I've personally never sold a coin to them, but thats because the market for CAC stickers in the material I deal with is so strong. The offers I've received on coins from them were above generic wholesale but well below what I could get from the general public, so I haven't accepted one at this time. Then again, I don't think they're super interested in the stuff I've got to move, and focus more on the higher end of the spectrum.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Yet, there are Plus+graded coins that did not sticker! I know, I tried with one. Because they have been "messed"?
Thanks for the info. Do you think the CAC premium you seen in the particular coins you’ve reviewed holds true for all coins regardless of value? What were the special coins you reviewed? Can you give a ballpark of the premiums realized with the CAC coins versus the value of the coins (a 20% premium on a $1000 coin, etc.)?
You’re a man after my own heart. Before I begin this research (which I will do) let me ask you.
Do both PCGS and NGC have pretty comprehensive population reports? I believe the reports include year, variety, number in grade and maybe other useful information that would be helpful. It’s been a while since I really studied the reports.
Does CAC have a publicly available report on the number of coins they sticker broken down by denomination, year and TPG grade?
Does CAC publish total number of coins submitted and not stickered?
If this information is available I think it would make for a great article in Coinworld or some other numismatic publication. It seems to be a subject many are interested in and if the information is readily available and can be use to arrive at some conclusions I think they would consider it for publication. I’ve written two articles for them in the past (expectations of prices realized in the first S.S. Central America auction and one on a rare 1845-D $5 die variety) and I think this type of article would be something they’d run with baring pushback from one of the companies mentioned in the article.
Actually I think that would be helpful hard data.
Since it’s data you would be interested in, perhaps your inquiring of the vendors will get you more up to date information?
I do have one more post @pmh1nic
1) have you reached out to CAC for information?
2) what coins do you collect ?
3) what price range do you collect?
4) what research have you done ? Be specific.
5) how long have you collected?
6) how often do you buy and sell?
7) can you give us a chart showing your performance when you have bought and sold ?
8) where do you buy your coins?
9) what is your grading experience? Please list your favorite numismatic grading books?
Thank you