@TurtleCat said:
My understanding is he has several world class graders who agree with his basic principles and he acts as the finalizer/tie breaker.
Bill Wetzler, Bill Shamhart, and Steve Blum.
I believe they do the actual grading & JA just inspects them for luster without any magnification.
My guess is about 2 seconds per coin unless it's very expensive/rare.
This would explain why many saints he stickers look like they've spent time in a Taco Bell drive through lane.
I'll take light cleaning over anything that looks like its been run over by a truck.
@pmh1nic said:
I don't buy anything rare or expensive.
Are you sure? Everything is rare in the hobby of "rare coins"
It is all relative. Some people have never heard the term "half eagle" and if you use it they think you've killed an endanger species 😀.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@ReadyFireAim said:
What is it about PCGS that they just can't seem to be able to grade gold properly.
I know I seem to have the same problem.
I recognize the “tongue in cheek”, and appreciate the humor. But to address your point seriously, for those reading this thread that may not know, PCGS has no problem at all accurately grading gold. In my opinion, they do an EXCELLENT job!
1. As you and most readers of this thread know, coins in a PCGS grade are divided into roughly three equal parts - the top third in the grade are “A” coins, followed by “B” and then by “C” coins. CAC will apply their sticker to A and B coins, but not C coins, subject to #2 below:
2. Apparently, CAC uses a different standard than PCGS (and NGC) when it comes to “surface issues” - how a coins surface has been treated in the past. That’s ok, but that’s the main reason why gold coins get a low percentage of CAC’s, not #1 above.
Steve
what do you mean exactly by how a coins surfaces have been treated?
@micotu said:
I'm starting a company that after you send the coin to CAC for the sticker, it grades whether it thinks the coin is of slightly higher or lower quality than what the sticker implies and will draw either a plus or minus sign in gold ink on top of the CAC sticker. Taking investments in increments of $10000 if anyone wants in.
Why do you feel this is a necessary service on top of PCGS and CAC a third service review of a coin
Steve, what do you mean exactly by how a coins surfaces have been treated?
When @ReadyFireAim was talking about the weight that PCGS gives to Surface Preservation in assigning a grade (as does CAC), he is referring to the marks and other distractions. Separately, PCGS also takes cleaning into account (as does CAC) the amount and type of “cleaning” a coin has undergone. If PCGS determines it is too much, they’ll put a coin in a “Details” holder. My next comment is based on my understanding and I may be wrong, but I believe this is where the difference lies. PCGS may feel the level or type of cleaning a coin has undergone is ok to straight grade that coin, where CAC believes, in their opinion, that what was done to a coin previously to “help” it, is too much to merit a CAC sticker.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already but does the ranking in registry sets take into consideration whether a coin has a CAC sticker or not?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already but does the ranking in registry sets take into consideration whether a coin has a CAC sticker or not?
There are PCGS-only and PCGS+CAC Registry Sets. No in the former, yes in the latter.
Would US Coins / CAC angle still be relevant in a market crash where US coins collapsed to 25c on dollar and world coins (cheaper, much lower pops) went up? Or where a new huge TPG backed by large intl stock market investors and intl dealers based in Europe massive capital behemoth takes over grading / pricing on a world wide scale advanced AI analytics making US coins just a segment in their giant exchange not recognizing CAC? Many people think a certain biz angle can go on indefinitely but when bigger guy with more money sees opportunity take your angle replace it with his…..plus taking your ideas for his (“that’s how I roll” said an x boss of mine about himself one time). Will sticker thing go into history like the 50d nickel roll craze? US coins not only coins minted on the planet. Mexican material getting hot can’t keep them in stock, graded WPM booming. Oh and CSA / Obsoletes….
@Cougar1978 said:
Would CAC still be relevant in a market crash where US coins collapsed to 25c on dollar and world coins went up? Or where a new TPG backed by large intl stock market investors and intl dealers based in Europe massive capital behemoth takes over grading / pricing on a world wide scale making US coins just a segment in their giant exchange not recognizing CAC.
I don't know about the relative size of the U.S. coin market versus the international market (I've resisted the temptation to find out) but if the market crashed I guessing the relative devaluation is going to be the same across the board and the coins commanding a premium now would still command a premium in the new market.
As for another grading company taking the place of PCGS, I don't think that happens give a large share of the best and rarest coins are already in PCGS holders. What would be the incentive to cross them over to another grading company?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Cougar1978 said:
Would CAC still be relevant in a market crash where US coins collapsed to 25c on dollar and world coins went up? Or where a new TPG backed by large intl stock market investors and intl dealers based in Europe massive capital behemoth takes over grading / pricing on a world wide scale making US coins just a segment in their giant exchange not recognizing CAC.
Collectors recognize CAC and drive CAC prices. Others just react to that.
@GRANDAM said:
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
Yes sorta like what’s going happen to NYC when global warming is a foregone conclusion and it has a 300’ wall keeping the ocean out like that scene from the expanse. The Martian tourists had to take an elevator up the wall to some high rise restaurant to dine at sea level. Then pay some kind of service fee.
Yup don’t like the run over by a truck look either. Hate that low end stuff. You mean there are people that buy those if have sticker rofl. Otherwise So if it was dipped probably needed it. Miss those good ole days shop owner would dip my roll purchase as a courtesy. Bright and shiny 1st magnitude a winner.
@keets said: PCGS was started by dealers to facilitate sight unseen transactions.
this is true, but I would ask how has that worked out?? it hasn't rendered most coins to commodity status. the coin still needs to be seen in almost every case to complete ANY transaction. it is ironic that CAC in a strange way hopes to achieve the same goal: give dealers/collectors confidence so that they buy sight unseen.
A lot of dealer to dealer sales go sight unseen. In almost every Heritage auction, I put in tens of thousands of bids without even looking at the pictures. And, yes, I bid higher on the CAC coins.
Are there even 10,000+ lots in a Heritage auction? I knew they were big but didn't thing they got close to that.
I put in like 5 bids and just got an order of 4 items. I'm feeling like a big time slacker!
@Zoins said:
The PCGS+CAC Registry Set requires CAC to add a coin.
That whole concept seems so ridiculous to me. Not only are you limiting yourself to coins in just one companies plastic, then you have to narrow it down even farther to coins in that one companies holder that also have a sticker on it.
I guess if you found a coin in an NGC, ANACS, PCI, SEGS etc. that you liked you could crack and/or cross then send to CAC and cross your fingers it gets the sticker.
That just seems like too much of a hassle to me.
Brilliant marketing by PCGS.
I prefer to just collect coins. Whatever holder and sticker it may or may not already have doesn’t matter much to me.
@Zoins said:
The PCGS+CAC Registry Set requires CAC to add a coin.
That whole concept seems so ridiculous to me. Not only are you limiting yourself to coins in just one companies plastic, then you have to narrow it down even farther to coins in that one companies holder that also have a sticker on it.
I guess if you found a coin in an NGC, ANACS, PCI, SEGS etc. that you liked you could crack and/or cross then send to CAC and cross your fingers it gets the sticker.
That just seems like too much of a hassle to me.
Brilliant marketing by PCGS.
I prefer to just collect coins. Whatever holder and sticker it may or may not already have doesn’t matter much to me.
Yup, first having all coins in one brand of holder makes for great presentation. All of my US coins (except a few fatties) are in PCGS bc I like the holder as presentation better. Second, CAC means they have done a much more thorough evaluation of the surfaces of the coin and to make the bean it has to hold to their high standards. So call me ridiculous by limiting myself.........
@Zoins said:
The PCGS+CAC Registry Set requires CAC to add a coin.
That whole concept seems so ridiculous to me……..
And that’s what makes the world go around! While most collectors choose not to partake in the PCGS/CAC Composite Registry sets, apparently there’s enough of a demand that PCGS made the decision to offer them.
Don’t take your eye off the ball. The point is that the demand for coins with CAC’s is a growing trend, NOT a shrinking trend, and the PCGS offer of these CAC Composite sets is just one more example of that!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Cougar1978 said:
Would US Coins / CAC angle still be relevant in a market crash where US coins collapsed to 25c on dollar and world coins (cheaper, much lower pops) went up? Or where a new huge TPG backed by large intl stock market investors and intl dealers based in Europe massive capital behemoth takes over grading / pricing on a world wide scale advanced AI analytics making US coins just a segment in their giant exchange not recognizing CAC?…….
I laugh! Here’s a person who regularly is anti-CAC, throwing up remote hypotheticals to try to come up with more rationales for himself to not accept CAC!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Here is why you should consider sending in all eligible coins regardless of value IMO. EDUCATION. When I start a series, in some cases something in VF for example, for one coin in the series might be $40, while another one might be $4000. IMO worth the time and minor cost to send in the $40 VFs so I can understand surface quality for the $4000 VF b4 I buy one.
Even if one has no plans to buy more expensive coins, one will get an education on how CAC evaluates surfaces and quality within the grade. I have sent many <$100 coins in, many more between $100 and $1000, and some even higher. I have learned about about quality for the grade that I don't get by just going with grade on the slab. Now when I evaluate on online image or a coin in hand, I am so much better at identifying quality and problems. Priceless.
Finally, if one wants to participate in the PCGS-CAC registry, then one needs to have CACed examples. For alot of the series, that is very hard, so it opens up a greater challenge. For example, Barber quarters Everyman set. Not too many in CAC, very hard to find, and I don't want just any CAC coin, I have to like it. And go ahead and try to select the right barber quarter to send off to CAC and get the bean, not so easy online bc 90% of the images for vendors are not good enough for a proper evaluation. Once can spend alot of money on many different coins if one goes that way before one has a VF-XF-AU coin that looks great and beans. So harder to build the registry set for these than doing one in the regular, non-CAC registry. I have spent 5 years on the Barber CAC everyman set and still have not found a suitable Barber quarter in any grade for some in the series, so a very great challenge to complete. Makes it more enjoyable that way IMO.
Also, the CAC Rare Coin Market Review sent out quarterly by The Greysheet is having an article series right now on CAC coins under $150. The point is if one strives for quality in even coins under this price, it is better to get ones that have been CACed. Interesting set of articles for sure.
The way I look at it is CAC and grades are variable and the coin is what brings the affirmation unless incorrectly graded. I value older holder personally as it speaks to stability and a lack of hands on target. An MS65 common date could be tomorrow’s MS63 gold cac but in a holder for 20-30 years will always have that.
One is real insurance the others are just opinions
@micotu said:
I'm starting a company that after you send the coin to CAC for the sticker, it grades whether it thinks the coin is of slightly higher or lower quality than what the sticker implies and will draw either a plus or minus sign in gold ink on top of the CAC sticker. Taking investments in increments of $10000 if anyone wants in.
Why do you feel this is a necessary service on top of PCGS and CAC a third service review of a coin
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
@GRANDAM said:
A gruesome point to ponder,,,,,,, CAC is successful basically due to the expertise and opinion of one man. At some point people age,,,,,, eyesight fails,,,,,,, they retire or they pass on,,,,,,,, we all got to go sometime. What happens when the option to get CAC approval is no longer available? Does this make all the previously stickered coins more desirable and valuable? I think so,,,,,,, so no value to waiting until YOU pass and have your heirs no longer be able to get that CAC approval to increase value if that service is no longer around or the same trust and value is not placed in the people that will run the company in the future.
Wishing no-one ill health but we all gotta go sometime.
P.S I am older than John so I will probably go first,,,,,,,,
I believe that he has 2 graders working for him. Would be interesting to know how often he disagrees with them. If the agreement is very good then one or both of them could carry on.
@gumby1234 said:
I dont have any CAC coins mainly due to the fact that they weren't born when I bought 99 percent of my coins. The idea of CAC is basically to make more money when selling your coins. Same thing can be said for slabs. Try selling raw coins and getting the same premium for them. Both slabs and stickers make coins easier to sell, especially sight unseen.
Understood! But then the question is raised, why not send in to CAC your coins purchased decades ago, for a cost of only $16 each (and as a Collector Submitter you only get charged that $16 only for the coins that get stickered, NO charge for the coins that don’t)? Since you recognize that coins with CAC’s are easier to sell, and presumably also recognize they sell for higher prices, why not make that end process easier (and more successful) for you or your heirs? It’s a very simple process!
Steve
Maybe I'm missing something but if there is no charge for membership and they only charge for coins that get stickered how do they make money?
Dealers pay a fee for every coin, collectors pay only for stickered coins. Dealers are expected to submit far more than collectors. I don’t think JA intended CAC to be a major money maker. The guy has plenty of money-making ideas and experience.
I'm getting an education. I see that membership is closed so it appears the volume of business being done with current members must be good.
Since membership is closed does this mean an individual would have to bring the coin to a member dealer to access this service?
Is it one person (John Albanese) who makes the call on a coin or are there graders he has authorized to make the call?
They accept a couple of new members per month. JA is the finalizer and has the last word. I believe that he sees EVERY coin.
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
They wouldn't be grading very many coins if original surfaces was all that they would accept.
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
I remember showing David Hall a collector grade 1854-S $20 in an ANACS holder when David would look at coins at the PCGS booth at Long Beach for an hour or two a day as a promotion for PCGS while the show was taking place and offer his opinion. He said lightly cleaned, market acceptable, and should cross. Sure enough he was correct. Prior to me selling the coin at auction it was sent to CAC and it didn’t sticker. Of course this is only one example with a sample size of one but I think this is the point Steven is trying to make.
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
Not only that, JA is hugely critical of dark or thick toning on classics. Which considering the monetary incentive of CAC stickers, almost puts positive market pressure on the treatment of coins. CAC wants attractive not original, it just so happens that choicely original is considered attractive these days.
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
Not only that, JA is hugely critical of dark or thick toning on classics. Which considering the monetary incentive of CAC stickers, almost puts positive market pressure on the treatment of coins. CAC wants attractive not original, it just so happens that choicely original is considered attractive these days.
My impression is very different from that. I think he’s more tolerant of dark, thickly toned, original looking coins. And therefore, discourages dipping, to some extent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@spacehayduke said:
Here is why you should consider sending in all eligible coins regardless of value IMO. EDUCATION. When I start a series, in some cases something in VF for example, for one coin in the series might be $40, while another one might be $4000. IMO worth the time and minor cost to send in the $40 VFs so I can understand surface quality for the $4000 VF b4 I buy one.
Even if one has no plans to buy more expensive coins, one will get an education on how CAC evaluates surfaces and quality within the grade. I have sent many <$100 coins in, many more between $100 and $1000, and some even higher. I have learned about about quality for the grade that I don't get by just going with grade on the slab. Now when I evaluate on online image or a coin in hand, I am so much better at identifying quality and problems. Priceless.
Finally, if one wants to participate in the PCGS-CAC registry, then one needs to have CACed examples. For alot of the series, that is very hard, so it opens up a greater challenge. For example, Barber quarters Everyman set. Not too many in CAC, very hard to find, and I don't want just any CAC coin, I have to like it. And go ahead and try to select the right barber quarter to send off to CAC and get the bean, not so easy online bc 90% of the images for vendors are not good enough for a proper evaluation. Once can spend alot of money on many different coins if one goes that way before one has a VF-XF-AU coin that looks great and beans. So harder to build the registry set for these than doing one in the regular, non-CAC registry. I have spent 5 years on the Barber CAC everyman set and still have not found a suitable Barber quarter in any grade for some in the series, so a very great challenge to complete. Makes it more enjoyable that way IMO.
Also, the CAC Rare Coin Market Review sent out quarterly by The Greysheet is having an article series right now on CAC coins under $150. The point is if one strives for quality in even coins under this price, it is better to get ones that have been CACed. Interesting set of articles for sure.
Best, SH
Great feedback!
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins. I don’t have any $4K coins or any coin where 50% of its value is tied to its condition, give or take a point in the grade. The coins I buy are going to be worth within +/- 10% of what I paid for them whether the grade is 1 point higher or lower. I purposely don’t buy condition rarities or anything where a one difference in grade bumps the price 50%. Why? Because after years of being a collector and studying the grading landscape I’ve come to understand the fickleness of grading. That includes how the “standards” have changed over the years. Is there value added by CAC? Based on what others have said the answer is yes. But in the realm of collecting I play in not enough to get involved. For me PCGS, NGC and ANACS authenticate and get within a point of an accurate grade. If they’re a point off on the grade I’ve not suffered a tremendous loss. On the other hand if a point means a 50% reduction in the value of a $4000 coin the accuracy of the grade becomes a much more critical factor.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I partially agree with Mark Feld in that JA is somewhat to moderately tough but not severely so oon darkly toned classic coins as JA even told me himself that when the toning obscures the luster of the coin or potentially hides a problem underneath the toning it can get rejected. Also, JA stated to me that sometimes toning can be a negative.
I submitted a bust 1/2 dime in PCGS MS-67 two times to CAC in which he rejected it each time because it was too dark and the third time his graders overruled him and got accepted. Sometimes even JA has different opinions from that of his own graders. It does happen sometimes.
@Zoins said:
The PCGS+CAC Registry Set requires CAC to add a coin.
That whole concept seems so ridiculous to me. Not only are you limiting yourself to coins in just one companies plastic, then you have to narrow it down even farther to coins in that one companies holder that also have a sticker on it.
I guess if you found a coin in an NGC, ANACS, PCI, SEGS etc. that you liked you could crack and/or cross then send to CAC and cross your fingers it gets the sticker.
That just seems like too much of a hassle to me.
Brilliant marketing by PCGS.
I prefer to just collect coins. Whatever holder and sticker it may or may not already have doesn’t matter much to me.
You can collect what you want. Just use the Collectors Showcase Registry
@oreville said:
I partially agree with Mark Feld in that JA is somewhat to moderately tough but not severely so oon darkly toned classic coins as JA even told me himself that when the toning obscures the luster of the coin or potentially hides a problem underneath the toning it can get rejected. Also, JA stated to me that sometimes toning can be a negative.
I submitted a bust 1/2 dime in PCGS MS-67 two times to CAC in which he rejected it each time because it was too dark and the third time his graders overruled him and got accepted. Sometimes even JA has different opinions from that of his own graders. It does happen sometimes.
Wow! JA gets over-ruled for CAC!
I want a CAC sticker with JA's signature on it to prove he approved it!
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
I'm not sure what point I missed. I stated that green beans are not a guarantee of original surfaces. Nothing you stated above contradicts that.
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
I'm not sure what point I missed. I stated that green beans are not a guarantee of original surfaces. Nothing you stated above contradicts that.
My understanding is that coins with non-original surfaces can be CACed. If not, there would be very few CAC approved coins!
@oreville said:
I partially agree with Mark Feld in that JA is somewhat to moderately tough but not severely so oon darkly toned classic coins as JA even told me himself that when the toning obscures the luster of the coin or potentially hides a problem underneath the toning it can get rejected. Also, JA stated to me that sometimes toning can be a negative.
I submitted a bust 1/2 dime in PCGS MS-67 two times to CAC in which he rejected it each time because it was too dark and the third time his graders overruled him and got accepted. Sometimes even JA has different opinions from that of his own graders. It does happen sometimes.
I agree with Mr. Albanese, when toning obscures the luster you can't say regarding the surface preservation that it has fully original mint luster. Hmmm, there was a tread not too long ago where a forum member made that claim and was wildly ridiculed for it.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
There are a lot of people who don't like"original" when original means "crusty".
@oreville said:
I partially agree with Mark Feld in that JA is somewhat to moderately tough but not severely so oon darkly toned classic coins as JA even told me himself that when the toning obscures the luster of the coin or potentially hides a problem underneath the toning it can get rejected. Also, JA stated to me that sometimes toning can be a negative.
I submitted a bust 1/2 dime in PCGS MS-67 two times to CAC in which he rejected it each time because it was too dark and the third time his graders overruled him and got accepted. Sometimes even JA has different opinions from that of his own graders. It does happen sometimes.
I agree with Mr. Albanese, when toning obscures the luster you can't say regarding the surface preservation that it has fully original mint luster. Hmmm, there was a tread not too long ago where a form member made that claim and was wildly ridiculed for it.
I think that poster maintained something to the effect, that if a coin was toned at all, it couldn’t exhibit full/original mint luster. And therefore, couldn’t grade such and such. But whatever his precise point, it wasn’t the same one that CAC makes in declining to sticker certain dark (as opposed to merely toned) coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
There are a lot of people who don't like"original" when original means "crusty".
Or when “original” is otherwise unattractive.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
I'm not sure what point I missed. I stated that green beans are not a guarantee of original surfaces. Nothing you stated above contradicts that.
Apparently you’ve edited your original comment. I’m under the impression your original comment implied something like that CAC implies they won’t sticker coins without original surfaces, or something like that.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
I'm not sure what point I missed. I stated that green beans are not a guarantee of original surfaces. Nothing you stated above contradicts that.
Apparently you’ve edited your original comment. I’m under the impression your original comment implied something like that CAC implies they won’t sticker coins without original surfaces, or something like that.
Steve
The edit to my original comment was purely additive. Nothing was modified.
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
I'm not sure what point I missed. I stated that green beans are not a guarantee of original surfaces. Nothing you stated above contradicts that.
Apparently you’ve edited your original comment. I’m under the impression your original comment implied something like that CAC implies they won’t sticker coins without original surfaces, or something like that.
Steve
I responded to the comment: JA likes original surfaces to point out that while he may like them, they're hardly a prerequisite for earning a bean.
Comments
Bill Wetzler, Bill Shamhart, and Steve Blum.
I believe they do the actual grading & JA just inspects them for luster without any magnification.
My guess is about 2 seconds per coin unless it's very expensive/rare.
This would explain why many saints he stickers look like they've spent time in a Taco Bell drive through lane.
I'll take light cleaning over anything that looks like its been run over by a truck.
My Saint Set
It is all relative. Some people have never heard the term "half eagle" and if you use it they think you've killed an endanger species 😀.
Reminds me of “half chicken”
Maybe even a half dollar. Ever try paying a youngster working the cash register with one?
Maybe ordering a half chicken for dinner?
Why do you feel this is a necessary service on top of PCGS and CAC a third service review of a coin
When @ReadyFireAim was talking about the weight that PCGS gives to Surface Preservation in assigning a grade (as does CAC), he is referring to the marks and other distractions. Separately, PCGS also takes cleaning into account (as does CAC) the amount and type of “cleaning” a coin has undergone. If PCGS determines it is too much, they’ll put a coin in a “Details” holder. My next comment is based on my understanding and I may be wrong, but I believe this is where the difference lies. PCGS may feel the level or type of cleaning a coin has undergone is ok to straight grade that coin, where CAC believes, in their opinion, that what was done to a coin previously to “help” it, is too much to merit a CAC sticker.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already but does the ranking in registry sets take into consideration whether a coin has a CAC sticker or not?
There are PCGS-only and PCGS+CAC Registry Sets. No in the former, yes in the latter.
Would US Coins / CAC angle still be relevant in a market crash where US coins collapsed to 25c on dollar and world coins (cheaper, much lower pops) went up? Or where a new huge TPG backed by large intl stock market investors and intl dealers based in Europe massive capital behemoth takes over grading / pricing on a world wide scale advanced AI analytics making US coins just a segment in their giant exchange not recognizing CAC? Many people think a certain biz angle can go on indefinitely but when bigger guy with more money sees opportunity take your angle replace it with his…..plus taking your ideas for his (“that’s how I roll” said an x boss of mine about himself one time). Will sticker thing go into history like the 50d nickel roll craze? US coins not only coins minted on the planet. Mexican material getting hot can’t keep them in stock, graded WPM booming. Oh and CSA / Obsoletes….
I don't know about the relative size of the U.S. coin market versus the international market (I've resisted the temptation to find out) but if the market crashed I guessing the relative devaluation is going to be the same across the board and the coins commanding a premium now would still command a premium in the new market.
As for another grading company taking the place of PCGS, I don't think that happens give a large share of the best and rarest coins are already in PCGS holders. What would be the incentive to cross them over to another grading company?
Collectors recognize CAC and drive CAC prices. Others just react to that.
Ha ha many did not think Exxon would merge w Mobil. This thread reminds me of A&M vs Texas lol.
Yes sorta like what’s going happen to NYC when global warming is a foregone conclusion and it has a 300’ wall keeping the ocean out like that scene from the expanse. The Martian tourists had to take an elevator up the wall to some high rise restaurant to dine at sea level. Then pay some kind of service fee.
Yup don’t like the run over by a truck look either. Hate that low end stuff. You mean there are people that buy those if have sticker rofl. Otherwise So if it was dipped probably needed it. Miss those good ole days shop owner would dip my roll purchase as a courtesy. Bright and shiny 1st magnitude a winner.
That was dollars not items
That whole concept seems so ridiculous to me. Not only are you limiting yourself to coins in just one companies plastic, then you have to narrow it down even farther to coins in that one companies holder that also have a sticker on it.
I guess if you found a coin in an NGC, ANACS, PCI, SEGS etc. that you liked you could crack and/or cross then send to CAC and cross your fingers it gets the sticker.
That just seems like too much of a hassle to me.
Brilliant marketing by PCGS.
I prefer to just collect coins. Whatever holder and sticker it may or may not already have doesn’t matter much to me.
Yup, first having all coins in one brand of holder makes for great presentation. All of my US coins (except a few fatties) are in PCGS bc I like the holder as presentation better. Second, CAC means they have done a much more thorough evaluation of the surfaces of the coin and to make the bean it has to hold to their high standards. So call me ridiculous by limiting myself.........
Best, SH
And that’s what makes the world go around! While most collectors choose not to partake in the PCGS/CAC Composite Registry sets, apparently there’s enough of a demand that PCGS made the decision to offer them.
Don’t take your eye off the ball. The point is that the demand for coins with CAC’s is a growing trend, NOT a shrinking trend, and the PCGS offer of these CAC Composite sets is just one more example of that!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I laugh! Here’s a person who regularly is anti-CAC, throwing up remote hypotheticals to try to come up with more rationales for himself to not accept CAC!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Here is why you should consider sending in all eligible coins regardless of value IMO. EDUCATION. When I start a series, in some cases something in VF for example, for one coin in the series might be $40, while another one might be $4000. IMO worth the time and minor cost to send in the $40 VFs so I can understand surface quality for the $4000 VF b4 I buy one.
Even if one has no plans to buy more expensive coins, one will get an education on how CAC evaluates surfaces and quality within the grade. I have sent many <$100 coins in, many more between $100 and $1000, and some even higher. I have learned about about quality for the grade that I don't get by just going with grade on the slab. Now when I evaluate on online image or a coin in hand, I am so much better at identifying quality and problems. Priceless.
Finally, if one wants to participate in the PCGS-CAC registry, then one needs to have CACed examples. For alot of the series, that is very hard, so it opens up a greater challenge. For example, Barber quarters Everyman set. Not too many in CAC, very hard to find, and I don't want just any CAC coin, I have to like it. And go ahead and try to select the right barber quarter to send off to CAC and get the bean, not so easy online bc 90% of the images for vendors are not good enough for a proper evaluation. Once can spend alot of money on many different coins if one goes that way before one has a VF-XF-AU coin that looks great and beans. So harder to build the registry set for these than doing one in the regular, non-CAC registry. I have spent 5 years on the Barber CAC everyman set and still have not found a suitable Barber quarter in any grade for some in the series, so a very great challenge to complete. Makes it more enjoyable that way IMO.
Also, the CAC Rare Coin Market Review sent out quarterly by The Greysheet is having an article series right now on CAC coins under $150. The point is if one strives for quality in even coins under this price, it is better to get ones that have been CACed. Interesting set of articles for sure.
Best, SH
The way I look at it is CAC and grades are variable and the coin is what brings the affirmation unless incorrectly graded. I value older holder personally as it speaks to stability and a lack of hands on target. An MS65 common date could be tomorrow’s MS63 gold cac but in a holder for 20-30 years will always have that.
One is real insurance the others are just opinions
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I was joking...
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
I believe that he has 2 graders working for him. Would be interesting to know how often he disagrees with them. If the agreement is very good then one or both of them could carry on.
They accept a couple of new members per month. JA is the finalizer and has the last word. I believe that he sees EVERY coin.
They wouldn't be grading very many coins if original surfaces was all that they would accept.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I remember showing David Hall a collector grade 1854-S $20 in an ANACS holder when David would look at coins at the PCGS booth at Long Beach for an hour or two a day as a promotion for PCGS while the show was taking place and offer his opinion. He said lightly cleaned, market acceptable, and should cross. Sure enough he was correct. Prior to me selling the coin at auction it was sent to CAC and it didn’t sticker. Of course this is only one example with a sample size of one but I think this is the point Steven is trying to make.
Not only that, JA is hugely critical of dark or thick toning on classics. Which considering the monetary incentive of CAC stickers, almost puts positive market pressure on the treatment of coins. CAC wants attractive not original, it just so happens that choicely original is considered attractive these days.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
My impression is very different from that. I think he’s more tolerant of dark, thickly toned, original looking coins. And therefore, discourages dipping, to some extent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Great feedback!
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins. I don’t have any $4K coins or any coin where 50% of its value is tied to its condition, give or take a point in the grade. The coins I buy are going to be worth within +/- 10% of what I paid for them whether the grade is 1 point higher or lower. I purposely don’t buy condition rarities or anything where a one difference in grade bumps the price 50%. Why? Because after years of being a collector and studying the grading landscape I’ve come to understand the fickleness of grading. That includes how the “standards” have changed over the years. Is there value added by CAC? Based on what others have said the answer is yes. But in the realm of collecting I play in not enough to get involved. For me PCGS, NGC and ANACS authenticate and get within a point of an accurate grade. If they’re a point off on the grade I’ve not suffered a tremendous loss. On the other hand if a point means a 50% reduction in the value of a $4000 coin the accuracy of the grade becomes a much more critical factor.
This is going to end well.
I partially agree with Mark Feld in that JA is somewhat to moderately tough but not severely so oon darkly toned classic coins as JA even told me himself that when the toning obscures the luster of the coin or potentially hides a problem underneath the toning it can get rejected. Also, JA stated to me that sometimes toning can be a negative.
I submitted a bust 1/2 dime in PCGS MS-67 two times to CAC in which he rejected it each time because it was too dark and the third time his graders overruled him and got accepted. Sometimes even JA has different opinions from that of his own graders. It does happen sometimes.
You can collect what you want. Just use the Collectors Showcase Registry
Wow! JA gets over-ruled for CAC!
I want a CAC sticker with JA's signature on it to prove he approved it!
As an addendum.....JA also has stated that when deep tonng renders a coin less attractive in his view he will often reject such coin.
But from what you wrote, JA can be overruled so the coin can still be CAC approved.
I'm not sure what point I missed. I stated that green beans are not a guarantee of original surfaces. Nothing you stated above contradicts that.
My understanding is that coins with non-original surfaces can be CACed. If not, there would be very few CAC approved coins!
I agree with Mr. Albanese, when toning obscures the luster you can't say regarding the surface preservation that it has fully original mint luster. Hmmm, there was a tread not too long ago where a forum member made that claim and was wildly ridiculed for it.
There are a lot of people who don't like"original" when original means "crusty".
I think that poster maintained something to the effect, that if a coin was toned at all, it couldn’t exhibit full/original mint luster. And therefore, couldn’t grade such and such. But whatever his precise point, it wasn’t the same one that CAC makes in declining to sticker certain dark (as opposed to merely toned) coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Or when “original” is otherwise unattractive.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Apparently you’ve edited your original comment. I’m under the impression your original comment implied something like that CAC implies they won’t sticker coins without original surfaces, or something like that.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The edit to my original comment was purely additive. Nothing was modified.
I responded to the comment: JA likes original surfaces to point out that while he may like them, they're hardly a prerequisite for earning a bean.