One of the first 1794 dollars struck?
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
So Stacks claims. Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.
27
Comments
Even with obvious weakness at the stars and reverse legend, this piece is pretty well struck for a 1794.
That’s an awesome coin.
My YouTube Channel
I’d be pleased and proud to own that coin!
Dang, that's going to go for some serious money. 950k, just a guess.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
Almost looks tooled the details are so good.
Looks like a couple of hundred thousand dollars damage to several stars, jmo. Great strike though.
That hair detail is fantastic.
A beautiful coin and in incredible condition for 227 years of travel in this world. Cheers, RickO
Awesome coin, you never know what still might come out of the wild.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
You seem to like it so I won’t bid against you.
What are the little black spots on the coin?
The "damage" to the stars are adjustment marks.
Nice, very nice.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
It is an exceptional strike which has given it wonderful detail.
So far as the Proof surfaces are concerned, I think that it has been cleaned, which probably removed whatever there was once there with respect to reflective surfaces. That color is not natural, but given the popularity, rarity and sharpness, that is a minor point.
A coin like this is not going to get a "details" grade.
If you click on the coins in motion link at the bottom of the auction write up, you will see that there is some remaining satiny luster on the surfaces. Cleaning may very well destroy prooflike surfaces but it doesn’t replace them with satiny luster. So no, the coin was never prooflike
first one ive seen, nice pick up
The strike looks like a 1795.
If you can find the right variety. Some of the more common 1795 varieties didn't have a lot sharpness from the beginning.
I did not record what grade NGC gave to this piece, but I sure it was an AU grade of some sort. As you can see, it's missing the details in the center because of the strike.
Here's the type coin in my collection. Forty years ago this would have graded Ch VF. Today it's in an EF-40 holder. Oddly enough there is luster in the protected areas which suggests EF-45.
Beautiful!
Please enter me in the giveaway!
witty quote goes here
I agree with you- this is a nicely struck coin, but sort of spotted and lifeless, whereas yours is electric!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
One of the multiple early strike coins for sure. Never PL. Hate to otherwise comment on coins up for auction.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
So did the dies that struck the Specimen-66 have prooflike surfaces or was it only the planchet that was polished?
If the dies were reflective, what happened to the other PL coins struck? Did they just by chance not survive or circulated enough to hide any PL surfaces leaving no detectable survivors? Is there any process or reason that the dies could have been "de-proofliked" after striking the Specimen?
How many coins could have been stuck as PL by PL dies before the PL faded away? If only a few, that would raise the odds of not finding others due to circulation and melting.
Would guess these have been discussed before but do not recall if they were.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
The planchet was specially burnished. It was known in advance that the Secretary of State was attending the striking ceremony and he was presented a specimen. It makes sense that it was on a specially prepared planchet for such a dignitary. He later forwarded the coin to George Washington.
Just a great coin to have and show.
That's what it's all about! IMO.
When I saw that little video I thought whizzed but tradedollarnut said burnished. That answers my question.
@tradedollarnut I would want to see the inside of the 9 if had flash back to truly gauge the luster with a strong light while conceding you may fully be right.
That said two observations; I agree with @BillJones about it being cleaned in the past. I would say the the big one’s silver plug is one of the clearest signs of special “figuring it out” early special attention. If it was a process there would be more. Quite possibly they over polished, made it light, plugged and had to adjust and then made the first silver dollar after a couple of copper trials.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I wonder where that speciman came from ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I will happily take any 1794 Dollar, the history alone trumps all
I think you misunderstood my comment
Here's my 1795 B-5 dollar. One of the first coins I bought from Jim McGuigan in the late 90's. I've actually owned it twice, currently since 2005. It is my all time favorite coin. It has a lot of lustre and resides in a PCGS AU55 holder.
Yes, the 1795 B-5 dollar is one of common varieties, and, from my observations, often weakly struck. The piece I posted from my collection is a B-1, which also seems come weakly struck.
Your coin is truly special, but I'm not sure why this coin would in any way suggest anything about designation of your coin. A die will lose its ability to impart proof like surfaces very quickly before the die has any appreciable wear. This coin is probably among the first 2-3 dozen struck. Yours is probably in the first handful struck.
I will enter my thoughts on this. I agree with @tradedollarnut that the planchet for his coin was burnished or what ever before striking. Does anyone here think an early screw press imparts enough pressure to create a PL coin? I don't unless Hercules and his brother were operating the press!
Yes. PL refers only to the reflectivity of the fields and not the strike per se. And there were only 1 set of dies for 1794. This coin was struck by the same set of dies as TDN's coin as was every other 1794 silver dollar. I don't think anyone here questions that TDN's coin is a very early strike.
Also there is nothing in the auction description or reference materials that I see that suggests the planchet was burnished. Very early strikes will often have reflective PL surfaces. There are other early federal PL coins including a half dozen proof like 1795 dollars known (based on NGC census) as well as coins of other denominations. There are fewer 1794 dollars minted and only 1 die set (unlike 1795), so it is unsurprising that there would be fewer. The strike is still unusually impressive on TDN's coins, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a special strike. The first strike by the dies that struck TDN's coin was the copper Judd-19 pattern in the Smithsonian. As Mint officials transitioned to a new harder metal, it would make since they would experiment with pressure. This would absolutely be consistent with his coin being one of the very first few struck, but it doesn't follow that it is a specimen strike or that this specific piece was struck for a dignitary. It may very well be the case, but it is speculative at best. It could just as easily be a phenomenal early strike/PL coin. The specimen designation is debatable, but I don't think the designation really matters. The quality of the coin speaks for itself.
Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…
Actually, there’s a way to prove it since JD observed the slight rotation of the dies on the copper pattern and my coin. If the very early strike shown above doesn’t have the same rotation then in my mind that’s definitive proof that my coin was struck prior to the dies being placed for the days run of striking.
@cameonut2011 …let’s see your 1794, and also, I would love to see your lazy-river that surrounds the half an acre backyard of your Hawaiian Island pad? Show me the money baby
Theoretically what would distinguish the piece from an early PL business strike? This is not the first time I have posted a question about other early federal specimen designations. Where does one draw the line between "specimen" and a PL piece from fresh dies? I don't think my previous thread(s) on the topic (unrelated to your coin) ever produced a fruitful response other than it was subjective.
The extent of the obvious polishing of the planchet pre strike
The unique silver plug
The extraordinary strike - not just a fresh die strike
The lint marks
Good write-up.
Nice, very nice.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
One could also say there's a million dollars worth of wear on the coin.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Yours is the most FASCINATING SPECIMEN by far
That Randolph transmitted a coin to Washington is clear:
https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Randolph%2C%20Edmund%22%20AND%20Correspondent%3A%22Washington%2C%20George%22%20AND%20dollar&s=1111311111&sa=&r=20&sr=
I am not sure there are contemporary documents which confirm that Randolph actually visited the Mint, or that a striking ceremony occurred.
Thank you Len, as always your insights are numismatics at their finest. Cool site, going to get lost in it tonight.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
_On Oct. 15, 1794, there was a special ceremony honoring the first regular coinage of silver under the new government. In the hurry to begin coinage, however, it was found that the largest press available was not really powerful enough to strike silver dollars all that well. Moreover, the dies were slightly out of parallel, meaning that struck dollars would have areas, especially on the lower left of the obverse and the corresponding part of the reverse, where the design did not come up properly.
The President was unable to attend this special event, being absent from Philadelphia, but Secretary of State Edmund Randolph did_
https://www.numismaticnews.net/world-coins/silver-dollars-of-1794-1795-were-illegal
So much for italics. Pffft
I’m uncertain where RW Julien got this information. I thought I read before that it was from contemporary news accounts but I cannot find the link again.
Markdown does not like white space