One of the first 1794 dollars struck?

tradedollarnut · June 24, 2021 7:15PM

So Stacks claims. Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-RZ4F0/1794-flowing-hair-silver-dollar-bb-1-b-1-the-only-known-dies-rarity-4-au-55-ngc-cac

Coinosaurus · June 24, 2021 7:18PM

Even with obvious weakness at the stars and reverse legend, this piece is pretty well struck for a 1794.

asheland · June 24, 2021 7:24PM

That’s an awesome coin.

CaptHenway · June 24, 2021 7:30PM

I’d be pleased and proud to own that coin!

opportunity · June 24, 2021 8:42PM

Dang, that's going to go for some serious money. 950k, just a guess.

relicsncoins · June 24, 2021 9:57PM

Almost looks tooled the details are so good.

HoledandCreative · June 24, 2021 10:32PM

Looks like a couple of hundred thousand dollars damage to several stars, jmo. Great strike though.

Kove · June 24, 2021 11:30PM

That hair detail is fantastic.

ricko · June 25, 2021 5:30AM

A beautiful coin and in incredible condition for 227 years of travel in this world. Cheers, RickO

Ablinky · June 25, 2021 5:37AM

Awesome coin, you never know what still might come out of the wild.

JimTyler · June 25, 2021 5:55AM

You seem to like it so I won’t bid against you.

skier07 · June 25, 2021 7:15AM

What are the little black spots on the coin?

sellitstore · June 25, 2021 7:25AM

The "damage" to the stars are adjustment marks.

WAYNEAS · June 25, 2021 8:25AM

Nice, very nice.
Wayne

BillJones · June 25, 2021 8:35AM

It is an exceptional strike which has given it wonderful detail.

So far as the Proof surfaces are concerned, I think that it has been cleaned, which probably removed whatever there was once there with respect to reflective surfaces. That color is not natural, but given the popularity, rarity and sharpness, that is a minor point.

A coin like this is not going to get a "details" grade.

tradedollarnut · June 25, 2021 10:05AM

@BillJones said:
So far as the Proof surfaces are concerned, I think that it has been cleaned, which probably removed whatever there was once there with respect to reflective surfaces.

If you click on the coins in motion link at the bottom of the auction write up, you will see that there is some remaining satiny luster on the surfaces. Cleaning may very well destroy prooflike surfaces but it doesn’t replace them with satiny luster. So no, the coin was never prooflike

johnny9434 · June 25, 2021 10:06AM

first one ive seen, nice pick up

rays · June 25, 2021 10:07AM

The strike looks like a 1795.

BillJones · June 25, 2021 10:45AM

@rays said:
The strike looks like a 1795.

If you can find the right variety. Some of the more common 1795 varieties didn't have a lot sharpness from the beginning.

I did not record what grade NGC gave to this piece, but I sure it was an AU grade of some sort. As you can see, it's missing the details in the center because of the strike.

Here's the type coin in my collection. Forty years ago this would have graded Ch VF. Today it's in an EF-40 holder. Oddly enough there is luster in the protected areas which suggests EF-45.

Testoon · June 25, 2021 12:49PM

Beautiful!

Please enter me in the giveaway!

Floridafacelifter · June 25, 2021 12:59PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

I agree with you- this is a nicely struck coin, but sort of spotted and lifeless, whereas yours is electric!

DelawareDoons · June 25, 2021 1:44PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
So far as the Proof surfaces are concerned, I think that it has been cleaned, which probably removed whatever there was once there with respect to reflective surfaces.

If you click on the coins in motion link at the bottom of the auction write up, you will see that there is some remaining satiny luster on the surfaces. Cleaning may very well destroy prooflike surfaces but it doesn’t replace them with satiny luster. So no, the coin was never prooflike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ejs8QEXIZo

Nic · June 25, 2021 2:21PM

One of the multiple early strike coins for sure. Never PL. Hate to otherwise comment on coins up for auction.

WinLoseWin · June 25, 2021 5:08PM

So did the dies that struck the Specimen-66 have prooflike surfaces or was it only the planchet that was polished?

If the dies were reflective, what happened to the other PL coins struck? Did they just by chance not survive or circulated enough to hide any PL surfaces leaving no detectable survivors? Is there any process or reason that the dies could have been "de-proofliked" after striking the Specimen?

How many coins could have been stuck as PL by PL dies before the PL faded away? If only a few, that would raise the odds of not finding others due to circulation and melting.

Would guess these have been discussed before but do not recall if they were.

tradedollarnut · June 25, 2021 7:49PM

@WinLoseWin said:

So did the dies that struck the Specimen-66 have prooflike surfaces or was it only the planchet that was polished?

If the dies were reflective, what happened to the other PL coins struck? Did they just by chance not survive or circulated enough to hide any PL surfaces leaving no detectable survivors? Is there any process or reason that the dies could have been "de-proofliked" after striking the Specimen?

How many coins could have been stuck as PL by PL dies before the PL faded away? If only a few, that would raise the odds of not finding others due to circulation and melting.

Would guess these have been discussed before but do not recall if they were.

The planchet was specially burnished. It was known in advance that the Secretary of State was attending the striking ceremony and he was presented a specimen. It makes sense that it was on a specially prepared planchet for such a dignitary. He later forwarded the coin to George Washington.

DollarAfterDollar · June 26, 2021 7:16AM

Just a great coin to have and show.

Jimnight · June 26, 2021 7:26AM

That's what it's all about! IMO.

JimTyler · June 26, 2021 7:47AM

When I saw that little video I thought whizzed but tradedollarnut said burnished. That answers my question.

Crypto · June 26, 2021 7:56AM

@tradedollarnut I would want to see the inside of the 9 if had flash back to truly gauge the luster with a strong light while conceding you may fully be right.

That said two observations; I agree with @BillJones about it being cleaned in the past. I would say the the big one’s silver plug is one of the clearest signs of special “figuring it out” early special attention. If it was a process there would be more. Quite possibly they over polished, made it light, plugged and had to adjust and then made the first silver dollar after a couple of copper trials.

bidask · June 26, 2021 9:13AM

I wonder where that speciman came from ?

trueblood · June 26, 2021 9:24AM

I will happily take any 1794 Dollar, the history alone trumps all

tradedollarnut · June 26, 2021 10:06AM

@JimTyler said:
When I saw that little video I thought whizzed but tradedollarnut said burnished. That answers my question.

I think you misunderstood my comment

rays · June 26, 2021 2:43PM

@BillJones said:

@rays said:
The strike looks like a 1795.

If you can find the right variety. Some of the more common 1795 varieties didn't have a lot sharpness from the beginning.

I did not record what grade NGC gave to this piece, but I sure it was an AU grade of some sort. As you can see, it's missing the details in the center because of the strike.

Here's the type coin in my collection. Forty years ago this would have graded Ch VF. Today it's in an EF-40 holder. Oddly enough there is luster in the protected areas which suggests EF-45.

Here's my 1795 B-5 dollar. One of the first coins I bought from Jim McGuigan in the late 90's. I've actually owned it twice, currently since 2005. It is my all time favorite coin. It has a lot of lustre and resides in a PCGS AU55 holder.

BillJones · June 26, 2021 3:05PM

Yes, the 1795 B-5 dollar is one of common varieties, and, from my observations, often weakly struck. The piece I posted from my collection is a B-1, which also seems come weakly struck.

cameonut2011 · June 26, 2021 3:08PM

@tradedollarnut said:
No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

Your coin is truly special, but I'm not sure why this coin would in any way suggest anything about designation of your coin. A die will lose its ability to impart proof like surfaces very quickly before the die has any appreciable wear. This coin is probably among the first 2-3 dozen struck. Yours is probably in the first handful struck.

amwldcoin · June 26, 2021 3:32PM

I will enter my thoughts on this. I agree with @tradedollarnut that the planchet for his coin was burnished or what ever before striking. Does anyone here think an early screw press imparts enough pressure to create a PL coin? I don't unless Hercules and his brother were operating the press!

@cameonut2011 said:

@tradedollarnut said:
No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

Your coin is truly special, but I'm not sure why this coin would in any way suggest anything about designation of your coin. A die will lose its ability to impart proof like surfaces very quickly before the die has any appreciable wear. This coin is probably among the first 2-3 dozen struck. Yours is probably in the first handful struck.

cameonut2011 · June 26, 2021 4:16PM

@amwldcoin said:
I will enter my thoughts on this. I agree with @tradedollarnut that the planchet for his coin was burnished or what ever before striking. Does anyone here think an early screw press imparts enough pressure to create a PL coin? I don't unless Hercules and his brother were operating the press!

@cameonut2011 said:

@tradedollarnut said:
No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

Your coin is truly special, but I'm not sure why this coin would in any way suggest anything about designation of your coin. A die will lose its ability to impart proof like surfaces very quickly before the die has any appreciable wear. This coin is probably among the first 2-3 dozen struck. Yours is probably in the first handful struck.

Yes. PL refers only to the reflectivity of the fields and not the strike per se. And there were only 1 set of dies for 1794. This coin was struck by the same set of dies as TDN's coin as was every other 1794 silver dollar. I don't think anyone here questions that TDN's coin is a very early strike.

Also there is nothing in the auction description or reference materials that I see that suggests the planchet was burnished. Very early strikes will often have reflective PL surfaces. There are other early federal PL coins including a half dozen proof like 1795 dollars known (based on NGC census) as well as coins of other denominations. There are fewer 1794 dollars minted and only 1 die set (unlike 1795), so it is unsurprising that there would be fewer. The strike is still unusually impressive on TDN's coins, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a special strike. The first strike by the dies that struck TDN's coin was the copper Judd-19 pattern in the Smithsonian. As Mint officials transitioned to a new harder metal, it would make since they would experiment with pressure. This would absolutely be consistent with his coin being one of the very first few struck, but it doesn't follow that it is a specimen strike or that this specific piece was struck for a dignitary. It may very well be the case, but it is speculative at best. It could just as easily be a phenomenal early strike/PL coin. The specimen designation is debatable, but I don't think the designation really matters. The quality of the coin speaks for itself.

tradedollarnut · June 26, 2021 6:20PM

Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

tradedollarnut · June 26, 2021 6:47PM

Actually, there’s a way to prove it since JD observed the slight rotation of the dies on the copper pattern and my coin. If the very early strike shown above doesn’t have the same rotation then in my mind that’s definitive proof that my coin was struck prior to the dies being placed for the days run of striking.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · June 26, 2021 7:02PM

@cameonut2011 …let’s see your 1794, and also, I would love to see your lazy-river that surrounds the half an acre backyard of your Hawaiian Island pad? Show me the money baby

cameonut2011 · June 26, 2021 7:16PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

Theoretically what would distinguish the piece from an early PL business strike? This is not the first time I have posted a question about other early federal specimen designations. Where does one draw the line between "specimen" and a PL piece from fresh dies? I don't think my previous thread(s) on the topic (unrelated to your coin) ever produced a fruitful response other than it was subjective.

tradedollarnut · June 26, 2021 7:24PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

Theoretically what would distinguish the piece from an early PL business strike? This is not the first time I have posted a question about other early federal specimen designations. Where does one draw the line between "specimen" and a PL piece from fresh dies? I don't think my previous thread(s) on the topic ever produced a fruitful response other than it was subjective.

The extent of the obvious polishing of the planchet pre strike

The unique silver plug

The extraordinary strike - not just a fresh die strike

The lint marks

stman · June 26, 2021 7:30PM

Good write-up.

WAYNEAS · July 1, 2021 7:11AM

Nice, very nice.
Wayne

messydesk · July 1, 2021 8:05AM

@HoledandCreative said:
Looks like a couple of hundred thousand dollars damage to several stars, jmo. Great strike though.

One could also say there's a million dollars worth of wear on the coin.

trueblood · July 1, 2021 11:06AM

@tradedollarnut said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

Theoretically what would distinguish the piece from an early PL business strike? This is not the first time I have posted a question about other early federal specimen designations. Where does one draw the line between "specimen" and a PL piece from fresh dies? I don't think my previous thread(s) on the topic ever produced a fruitful response other than it was subjective.

The extent of the obvious polishing of the planchet pre strike

The unique silver plug

The extraordinary strike - not just a fresh die strike

The lint marks

Yours is the most FASCINATING SPECIMEN by far

Coinosaurus · July 1, 2021 11:46AM

@tradedollarnut said:

The planchet was specially burnished. It was known in advance that the Secretary of State was attending the striking ceremony and he was presented a specimen. It makes sense that it was on a specially prepared planchet for such a dignitary. He later forwarded the coin to George Washington.

That Randolph transmitted a coin to Washington is clear:

https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Randolph%2C%20Edmund%22%20AND%20Correspondent%3A%22Washington%2C%20George%22%20AND%20dollar&s=1111311111&sa=&r=20&sr=

I am not sure there are contemporary documents which confirm that Randolph actually visited the Mint, or that a striking ceremony occurred.

Crypto · July 1, 2021 11:50AM

@Coinosaurus said:

@tradedollarnut said:

The planchet was specially burnished. It was known in advance that the Secretary of State was attending the striking ceremony and he was presented a specimen. It makes sense that it was on a specially prepared planchet for such a dignitary. He later forwarded the coin to George Washington.

That Randolph transmitted a coin to Washington is clear:

https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Randolph%2C%20Edmund%22%20AND%20Correspondent%3A%22Washington%2C%20George%22%20AND%20dollar&s=1111311111&sa=&r=20&sr=

I am not sure there are contemporary documents which confirm that Randolph actually visited the Mint, or that a striking ceremony occurred.

Thank you Len, as always your insights are numismatics at their finest. Cool site, going to get lost in it tonight.

tradedollarnut · July 1, 2021 12:34PM

_On Oct. 15, 1794, there was a special ceremony honoring the first regular coinage of silver under the new government. In the hurry to begin coinage, however, it was found that the largest press available was not really powerful enough to strike silver dollars all that well. Moreover, the dies were slightly out of parallel, meaning that struck dollars would have areas, especially on the lower left of the obverse and the corresponding part of the reverse, where the design did not come up properly.

The President was unable to attend this special event, being absent from Philadelphia, but Secretary of State Edmund Randolph did_

https://www.numismaticnews.net/world-coins/silver-dollars-of-1794-1795-were-illegal

tradedollarnut · July 1, 2021 12:35PM

So much for italics. Pffft

I’m uncertain where RW Julien got this information. I thought I read before that it was from contemporary news accounts but I cannot find the link again.

MsMorrisine · July 1, 2021 12:38PM

Markdown does not like white space

One of the first 1794 dollars struck?

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