JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
For the Carter coin, pretty much proves what cannot be proven, but which can be authoritatively surmised by knowledgeable students of the date and its manufacture.
But "pretty much proves" in this coin's instance works tops out at "is perhaps strongly suggestive of". Conjecture about more than proximate strike order seems at best to be a well-informed SWAG.
@Sonorandesertrat, who taught it to me, and many other techno-geeks will recognize the SWAG acronym and concept.
S-W-A-G ... Scientific Wild-Ass Guess
None of which disproves anything. The coin speaks for itself. It's OMFUG!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@tradedollarnut said:
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
Out of curiosity could you elaborate on “not exactly the same die state”. Strike irregularities or deterioration? Fascinating and cool stuff, congratulations on the successes in the pursuit of knowledge
I agree that two of the clearest signs of different emission sequencing is die alignment or different collars. Like when Originaldan and I were trying to prove that there was both Business strike and proof emissions of the 1876 4 finger type 1 Obv trade dollar. We found different looks, strike characteristics but a break through was different Reed counts aligned with the different looks.
@tradedollarnut said:
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
how does this information contend with your SP66 having a big die crack/break and large die chip centered above the ear? which would not indicate a die state A (prime)?) aka (one of the first if not the first struck) - not combative, just for study.
@tradedollarnut said:
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
how does this information contend with your SP66 having a big die crack/break and large die chip centered above the ear? which would not indicate a die state A (prime)?) aka (one of the first if not the first struck) - not combative, just for study.
That “big die crack” is the edge of the silver plug. Don’t see the die chip that you are referencing- do you mean the centering dot?
@tradedollarnut said:
That “big die crack” is the edge of the silver plug. Don’t see the die chip that you are referencing- do you mean the centering dot?
.
ok. ty for taking the time. there is a spot where the top of the ear would be that lines up with the plug (looks like a chip) so that rendered my inquiry moot.
have you tracked any 94 or 95 dollars to the dies from the SP? i linked a dollar that looks about spot-on to the SP in a thread i just started for 94 dollars.
@tradedollarnut said:
Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.
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it looks like it came from the SP66 die(s) as well as the one i posted in my thread. fwiw
maybe it's common knowledge, except me, which is why i mention it.
@tradedollarnut said:
Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.
.
it looks like it came from the SP66 die(s) as well as the one i posted in my thread. fwiw
maybe it's common knowledge, except me, which is why i mention it.
Aren’t all 94 dollars the same dies just with a chronological progression of deterioration / working
@tradedollarnut said:
Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.
.
it looks like it came from the SP66 die(s) as well as the one i posted in my thread. fwiw
maybe it's common knowledge, except me, which is why i mention it.
Aren’t all 94 dollars the same dies just with a chronological progression of deterioration / working
I wish we knew more about the process of plugging underweight planchets. Just spitballing here, but what if the guy responsible for doing the work finished the first one he ever did and felt a burning need to burnish the planchet to try to disguise the alteration? Not saying that that is what happened, but the bottom line is that we do not know what happened.
Love the hair details in that closeup, BTW.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
I wish we knew more about the process of plugging underweight planchets. Just spitballing here, but what if the guy responsible for doing the work finished the first one he ever did and felt a burning need to burnish the planchet to try to disguise the alteration? Not saying that that is what happened, but the bottom line is that we do not know what happened.
Love the hair details in that closeup, BTW.
That would explain the PL but still 1st is 1st and there had to be a reason he wanted to get it as good as possible
@tradedollarnut said:
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
I'm assuming maximal pressure for the first (and only notable) strike.
The notable coin is removed and put aside.
Reduced pressure is guesstimated for the production run for coins of with previously unencountered stressors.
What is the spectrum of die rotation on the issue and where does the 55 coin fall within it.
What degree of die rotation might have been noted on 1794 50c? Any analogs.
Where does this piece fall in the condition census, not of grade, but of die state degradation. How many die state A's are identified as in this tranche.
If every one were previously considered, I'd be happy. I wish I could have followed the journey as closely as @cardinal and @tradedollarnut. It seems Bruce is always RWA to discuss this coin. Likely the Queen visits the Tower of London to visit the Crown Jewels so the great-grandkids can play with them. I think the twins have simpler tastes.
If some of the metrics that might be useful haven't be made, and in aggregate 20% would be astounding, they're only useful for refining informed speculation.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
According to JD, the copper pattern with stars and my coin are the only examples that exhibit the 5% rotation. No other example known to him has any rotation whatsoever. He believes it is definitive that the silver plug was struck right after the copper pattern - and before the dies were set (with no rotation) for the production run.
@tradedollarnut said:
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
I visited Stacks-Bowers last Wednesday, and examined that 1794 Dollar, and I concur with JD's assessment! (Actually, while I was in the lot viewing room, I distinctly heard JD speaking to another person about the coin.)
Let me say once again that a planchet does not have to be polished for the struck coin to be “proof-like,” however you define that term.
At ANACS we saw a complete clock of off-center dollars and there was an 1880 or 81-S about 25% off where the unstuck area of the planchet was frosty and the struck fields had that great shiny luster SF dollars of those years get.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@tradedollarnut said:
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
I visited Stacks-Bowers last Wednesday, and examined that 1794 Dollar, and I concur with JD's assessment! (Actually, while I was in the lot viewing room, I distinctly heard JD speaking to another person about the coin.)
@CaptHenway said:
Let me say once again that a planchet does not have to be polished for the struck coin to be “proof-like,” however you define that term.
At ANACS we saw a complete clock of off-center dollars and there was an 1880 or 81-S about 25% off where the unstuck area of the planchet was frosty and the struck fields had that great shiny luster SF dollars of those years get.
.
it is amazing where confirmations can come from!
granted looking at a LOT of diverse coins can tell one amazing story as well.
i almost posted a couple images that i was considering for my mind-blowing weekend thread where the ms67-level business strikes had SO many polishing lines, if a survey were done here i bet 90% of the people would say it was cleaned. (the TV made those lines POP) was going to start a thread and i really wanted to but i was doing too many things at once as it was and i've made a couple egregious errors recently postings things when i shouldn't. live n learn.
...Aren’t there two copper patterns at the Smithsonian? That might be a false memory
There are two copper patterns of the 1794 Dollar, but only one is in the Smithsonian. That is the one similar to the silver Specimen coin.
The other is the lower grade No Stars pattern that was struck from a different obverse die. It was just auctioned in April 2021 from the Simpson collection at $840,000, an impressive gain from its prior 2001 auction at $92,000. Wonder what the Smithsonian coin could bring if it were put up for auction.
.
.
Smithsonian pattern - (slide right to the third and fourth of the five photos to see a good depiction) :
@tradedollarnut said:
Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.
If the specimen coin was struck for presentation purposes, can this coin be considered the first business / circulation strike?
I don’t get all this back and forth. PCGS should put it In a first strike American flag holder
Seriously this Is a great discussion, lots of ideas and thoughts bouncing around. What ever it is or isn’t, it is a great America treasure and that is a fact
The Industry Leading Program that Adds Value to Modern Coins.
The PCGS First Strike program designates coins issued in the first 30* days of the Mint's release. This designation not only adds value to modern coins, but takes modern coin collecting to another level with multiple Mint releases each year.
*In rare cases, coins issued more than 30 days before submission can receive First Strike designation.
These threads are enjoyable as well as educational. I did not know about the slight rotation, which is another data point for showing the SP66 is the first "silver" dollar struck.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
...Aren’t there two copper patterns at the Smithsonian? That might be a false memory
There are two copper patterns of the 1794 Dollar, but only one is in the Smithsonian. That is the one similar to the silver Specimen coin.
The other is the lower grade No Stars pattern that was struck from a different obverse die. It was just auctioned in April 2021 from the Simpson collection at $840,000, an impressive gain from its prior 2001 auction at $92,000. Wonder what the Smithsonian coin could bring if it were put up for auction.
.
.
Smithsonian pattern - (slide right to the third and fourth of the five photos to see a good depiction) :
thanks that is it, great post and I appreciate it. While obviously different dies which means different emission, there is no rotation on the no stars coin.
Very nice detail and surfaces. I try to think of the historical background in the 1790s, as historian Gordon Wood emphasizes the country was bursting at the seams post Revolutionary War and the coins like the FH dollar reflected that youthful vigor.
@Zoins well it was minted in the first 30 days at that time is was a modern and it was just bullion at the time. I’m not sure they had the plastic holders at the time though. Thanks for the information on first strike. I should have put a smiley face in that post.
@Martin said: @Zoins well it was minted in the first 30 days at that time is was a modern and it was just bullion at the time. I’m not sure they had the plastic holders at the time though. Thanks for the information on first strike. I should have put a smiley face in that post.
Thanks
Martin
Although I posted the definition, I think it would be fun if PCGS did use First Strike for classics.
@CopperWire said:
Why did this coin not receive a details grade due to the extensive graffiti on the obverse?
if you are talking about the close-up above, you obviously didn't read the thread. that is from a silver plug that the mint used to save 1-2 grains of 90% silver which apparently would feed a family for a week back then.
OR are you talking about the die file lines the mint did for the same reason as the plug? in which case, read the thread.
Comments
JD just examined this dollar and stated that it does not have the same die rotation and is not exactly the same die state A. I am pretty excited about this news - an unclashed and uncanted early strike without proof like surfaces but with different rotation from mine (the same as all the others) pretty much proves that my coin was struck ahead of time for presentation purposes.
.> @tradedollarnut said:
For the Carter coin, pretty much proves what cannot be proven, but which can be authoritatively surmised by knowledgeable students of the date and its manufacture.
But "pretty much proves" in this coin's instance works tops out at "is perhaps strongly suggestive of". Conjecture about more than proximate strike order seems at best to be a well-informed SWAG.
@Sonorandesertrat, who taught it to me, and many other techno-geeks will recognize the SWAG acronym and concept.
S-W-A-G ... Scientific Wild-Ass Guess
None of which disproves anything. The coin speaks for itself. It's OMFUG!
Out of curiosity could you elaborate on “not exactly the same die state”. Strike irregularities or deterioration? Fascinating and cool stuff, congratulations on the successes in the pursuit of knowledge
I agree that two of the clearest signs of different emission sequencing is die alignment or different collars. Like when Originaldan and I were trying to prove that there was both Business strike and proof emissions of the 1876 4 finger type 1 Obv trade dollar. We found different looks, strike characteristics but a break through was different Reed counts aligned with the different looks.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
how does this information contend with your SP66 having a big die crack/break and large die chip centered above the ear? which would not indicate a die state A (prime)?) aka (one of the first if not the first struck) - not combative, just for study.
That “big die crack” is the edge of the silver plug. Don’t see the die chip that you are referencing- do you mean the centering dot?
.
ok. ty for taking the time. there is a spot where the top of the ear would be that lines up with the plug (looks like a chip) so that rendered my inquiry moot.
have you tracked any 94 or 95 dollars to the dies from the SP? i linked a dollar that looks about spot-on to the SP in a thread i just started for 94 dollars.
.
it looks like it came from the SP66 die(s) as well as the one i posted in my thread. fwiw
maybe it's common knowledge, except me, which is why i mention it.
Aren’t all 94 dollars the same dies just with a chronological progression of deterioration / working
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Correct
.
ok ty. that rings a bell now. i'll have to work it in the opposite direction now.
I wish we knew more about the process of plugging underweight planchets. Just spitballing here, but what if the guy responsible for doing the work finished the first one he ever did and felt a burning need to burnish the planchet to try to disguise the alteration? Not saying that that is what happened, but the bottom line is that we do not know what happened.
Love the hair details in that closeup, BTW.
That would explain the PL but still 1st is 1st and there had to be a reason he wanted to get it as good as possible
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Wow, that's some coin!!!
I'm assuming maximal pressure for the first (and only notable) strike.
The notable coin is removed and put aside.
Reduced pressure is guesstimated for the production run for coins of with previously unencountered stressors.
What is the spectrum of die rotation on the issue and where does the 55 coin fall within it.
What degree of die rotation might have been noted on 1794 50c? Any analogs.
Where does this piece fall in the condition census, not of grade, but of die state degradation. How many die state A's are identified as in this tranche.
If every one were previously considered, I'd be happy. I wish I could have followed the journey as closely as @cardinal and @tradedollarnut. It seems Bruce is always RWA to discuss this coin. Likely the Queen visits the Tower of London to visit the Crown Jewels so the great-grandkids can play with them. I think the twins have simpler tastes.
If some of the metrics that might be useful haven't be made, and in aggregate 20% would be astounding, they're only useful for refining informed speculation.
According to JD, the copper pattern with stars and my coin are the only examples that exhibit the 5% rotation. No other example known to him has any rotation whatsoever. He believes it is definitive that the silver plug was struck right after the copper pattern - and before the dies were set (with no rotation) for the production run.
Copper pattern (5 degree rotation)
Presentation piece (5 degree rotation)
Dies reset for production
Unclashed early strikes (no rotation)
Clashed middle strikes (no rotation)
Dies removed and lapped, then reset
Unclashed lapped strikes
Better than “some pig”
Aren’t there two copper patterns at the Smithsonian? That might be a false memory
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I visited Stacks-Bowers last Wednesday, and examined that 1794 Dollar, and I concur with JD's assessment! (Actually, while I was in the lot viewing room, I distinctly heard JD speaking to another person about the coin.)
Let me say once again that a planchet does not have to be polished for the struck coin to be “proof-like,” however you define that term.
At ANACS we saw a complete clock of off-center dollars and there was an 1880 or 81-S about 25% off where the unstuck area of the planchet was frosty and the struck fields had that great shiny luster SF dollars of those years get.
Was the other person TDN?
.
it is amazing where confirmations can come from!
granted looking at a LOT of diverse coins can tell one amazing story as well.
i almost posted a couple images that i was considering for my mind-blowing weekend thread where the ms67-level business strikes had SO many polishing lines, if a survey were done here i bet 90% of the people would say it was cleaned. (the TV made those lines POP) was going to start a thread and i really wanted to but i was doing too many things at once as it was and i've made a couple egregious errors recently postings things when i shouldn't. live n learn.
That's really cool. Hadn't seen this before. Once again, the coin speaks for itself.
Agree this is cool.
The coin speaks for itself, but seeing it in context with its peers like this makes it really notable.
There are two copper patterns of the 1794 Dollar, but only one is in the Smithsonian. That is the one similar to the silver Specimen coin.
The other is the lower grade No Stars pattern that was struck from a different obverse die. It was just auctioned in April 2021 from the Simpson collection at $840,000, an impressive gain from its prior 2001 auction at $92,000. Wonder what the Smithsonian coin could bring if it were put up for auction.
.
.
Smithsonian pattern - (slide right to the third and fourth of the five photos to see a good depiction) :
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_835239
No Stars example auctioned by Heritage from the Simpson collection:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1794-dt-1-dollar-judd-18-pollock-27-unique-vf25-pcgs-pcgs-11049-/a/1329-4190.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
If the specimen coin was struck for presentation purposes, can this coin be considered the first business / circulation strike?
I don’t get all this back and forth. PCGS should put it In a first strike American flag holder
Seriously this Is a great discussion, lots of ideas and thoughts bouncing around. What ever it is or isn’t, it is a great America treasure and that is a fact
Martin
The way PCGS First Strike is defined, shipped within first 30 days of shipping, makes it hard to tell for older coins.
The program is also only for moderns.
Perhaps they can make an exception, like they do for APMEX coins?
https://www.pcgs.com/firststrike
These threads are enjoyable as well as educational. I did not know about the slight rotation, which is another data point for showing the SP66 is the first "silver" dollar struck.
thanks that is it, great post and I appreciate it. While obviously different dies which means different emission, there is no rotation on the no stars coin.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Very nice detail and surfaces. I try to think of the historical background in the 1790s, as historian Gordon Wood emphasizes the country was bursting at the seams post Revolutionary War and the coins like the FH dollar reflected that youthful vigor.
Great Info!
@Zoins well it was minted in the first 30 days at that time is was a modern and it was just bullion at the time. I’m not sure they had the plastic holders at the time though. Thanks for the information on first strike. I should have put a smiley face in that post.
Thanks
Martin
Although I posted the definition, I think it would be fun if PCGS did use First Strike for classics.
classics? it would require knowing release date and receipt date with the ability to have it in a sealed and dated container.
Why did this coin not receive a details grade due to the extensive graffiti on the obverse?
Which coin are your referring to? Is it the newly discovered 1794 Dollar, or the SP66 1794 Dollar?
if you are talking about the close-up above, you obviously didn't read the thread. that is from a silver plug that the mint used to save 1-2 grains of 90% silver which apparently would feed a family for a week back then.
OR are you talking about the die file lines the mint did for the same reason as the plug? in which case, read the thread.
Are the adjustment marks on both?
This one appears to be the best struck of any 1794 .