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One of the first 1794 dollars struck?

tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 20, 2021 7:36AM in U.S. Coin Forum

So Stacks claims. Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-RZ4F0/1794-flowing-hair-silver-dollar-bb-1-b-1-the-only-known-dies-rarity-4-au-55-ngc-cac

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Comments

  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even with obvious weakness at the stars and reverse legend, this piece is pretty well struck for a 1794.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s an awesome coin.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’d be pleased and proud to own that coin!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • opportunityopportunity Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2021 8:43PM

    Dang, that's going to go for some serious money. 950k, just a guess.

    Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.

  • relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,833 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Almost looks tooled the details are so good.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
  • HoledandCreativeHoledandCreative Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a couple of hundred thousand dollars damage to several stars, jmo. Great strike though.

  • KoveKove Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭

    That hair detail is fantastic.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A beautiful coin and in incredible condition for 227 years of travel in this world. Cheers, RickO

  • AblinkyAblinky Posts: 625 ✭✭✭

    Awesome coin, you never know what still might come out of the wild.

    Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,033 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You seem to like it so I won’t bid against you.

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2021 7:17AM

    What are the little black spots on the coin?

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice, very nice.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    So far as the Proof surfaces are concerned, I think that it has been cleaned, which probably removed whatever there was once there with respect to reflective surfaces.

    If you click on the coins in motion link at the bottom of the auction write up, you will see that there is some remaining satiny luster on the surfaces. Cleaning may very well destroy prooflike surfaces but it doesn’t replace them with satiny luster. So no, the coin was never prooflike

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    first one ive seen, nice pick up :)

  • raysrays Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The strike looks like a 1795.

  • TestoonTestoon Posts: 152 ✭✭✭

    Beautiful!

    Please enter me in the giveaway! :p

    Bill
    witty quote goes here
  • FloridafacelifterFloridafacelifter Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Fully struck from unclashed and uncanted dies. Perhaps the 2nd earliest strike known? No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

    I agree with you- this is a nicely struck coin, but sort of spotted and lifeless, whereas yours is electric!

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @BillJones said:
    So far as the Proof surfaces are concerned, I think that it has been cleaned, which probably removed whatever there was once there with respect to reflective surfaces.

    If you click on the coins in motion link at the bottom of the auction write up, you will see that there is some remaining satiny luster on the surfaces. Cleaning may very well destroy prooflike surfaces but it doesn’t replace them with satiny luster. So no, the coin was never prooflike

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ejs8QEXIZo

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • NicNic Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of the multiple early strike coins for sure. Never PL. Hate to otherwise comment on coins up for auction.

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So did the dies that struck the Specimen-66 have prooflike surfaces or was it only the planchet that was polished?

    If the dies were reflective, what happened to the other PL coins struck? Did they just by chance not survive or circulated enough to hide any PL surfaces leaving no detectable survivors? Is there any process or reason that the dies could have been "de-proofliked" after striking the Specimen?

    How many coins could have been stuck as PL by PL dies before the PL faded away? If only a few, that would raise the odds of not finding others due to circulation and melting.

    Would guess these have been discussed before but do not recall if they were.

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WinLoseWin said:

    So did the dies that struck the Specimen-66 have prooflike surfaces or was it only the planchet that was polished?

    If the dies were reflective, what happened to the other PL coins struck? Did they just by chance not survive or circulated enough to hide any PL surfaces leaving no detectable survivors? Is there any process or reason that the dies could have been "de-proofliked" after striking the Specimen?

    How many coins could have been stuck as PL by PL dies before the PL faded away? If only a few, that would raise the odds of not finding others due to circulation and melting.

    Would guess these have been discussed before but do not recall if they were.

    The planchet was specially burnished. It was known in advance that the Secretary of State was attending the striking ceremony and he was presented a specimen. It makes sense that it was on a specially prepared planchet for such a dignitary. He later forwarded the coin to George Washington.

  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just a great coin to have and show.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,767 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's what it's all about! IMO.

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,033 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 7:48AM

    When I saw that little video I thought whizzed but tradedollarnut said burnished. That answers my question.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 12:23PM

    @tradedollarnut I would want to see the inside of the 9 if had flash back to truly gauge the luster with a strong light while conceding you may fully be right.

    That said two observations; I agree with @BillJones about it being cleaned in the past. I would say the the big one’s silver plug is one of the clearest signs of special “figuring it out” early special attention. If it was a process there would be more. Quite possibly they over polished, made it light, plugged and had to adjust and then made the first silver dollar after a couple of copper trials.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder where that speciman came from ?

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    When I saw that little video I thought whizzed but tradedollarnut said burnished. That answers my question.

    I think you misunderstood my comment

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 3:06PM

    Yes, the 1795 B-5 dollar is one of common varieties, and, from my observations, often weakly struck. The piece I posted from my collection is a B-1, which also seems come weakly struck.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

    Your coin is truly special, but I'm not sure why this coin would in any way suggest anything about designation of your coin. A die will lose its ability to impart proof like surfaces very quickly before the die has any appreciable wear. This coin is probably among the first 2-3 dozen struck. Yours is probably in the first handful struck.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 3:33PM

    I will enter my thoughts on this. I agree with @tradedollarnut that the planchet for his coin was burnished or what ever before striking. Does anyone here think an early screw press imparts enough pressure to create a PL coin? I don't unless Hercules and his brother were operating the press!

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @tradedollarnut said:
    No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

    Your coin is truly special, but I'm not sure why this coin would in any way suggest anything about designation of your coin. A die will lose its ability to impart proof like surfaces very quickly before the die has any appreciable wear. This coin is probably among the first 2-3 dozen struck. Yours is probably in the first handful struck.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 4:41PM

    @amwldcoin said:
    I will enter my thoughts on this. I agree with @tradedollarnut that the planchet for his coin was burnished or what ever before striking. Does anyone here think an early screw press imparts enough pressure to create a PL coin? I don't unless Hercules and his brother were operating the press!

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @tradedollarnut said:
    No trace whatsoever of prooflike surfaces…which in my mind enhances my coin’s specimen status.

    Your coin is truly special, but I'm not sure why this coin would in any way suggest anything about designation of your coin. A die will lose its ability to impart proof like surfaces very quickly before the die has any appreciable wear. This coin is probably among the first 2-3 dozen struck. Yours is probably in the first handful struck.

    Yes. PL refers only to the reflectivity of the fields and not the strike per se. And there were only 1 set of dies for 1794. This coin was struck by the same set of dies as TDN's coin as was every other 1794 silver dollar. I don't think anyone here questions that TDN's coin is a very early strike.

    Also there is nothing in the auction description or reference materials that I see that suggests the planchet was burnished. Very early strikes will often have reflective PL surfaces. There are other early federal PL coins including a half dozen proof like 1795 dollars known (based on NGC census) as well as coins of other denominations. There are fewer 1794 dollars minted and only 1 die set (unlike 1795), so it is unsurprising that there would be fewer. The strike is still unusually impressive on TDN's coins, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a special strike. The first strike by the dies that struck TDN's coin was the copper Judd-19 pattern in the Smithsonian. As Mint officials transitioned to a new harder metal, it would make since they would experiment with pressure. This would absolutely be consistent with his coin being one of the very first few struck, but it doesn't follow that it is a specimen strike or that this specific piece was struck for a dignitary. It may very well be the case, but it is speculative at best. It could just as easily be a phenomenal early strike/PL coin. The specimen designation is debatable, but I don't think the designation really matters. The quality of the coin speaks for itself.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Actually, there’s a way to prove it since JD observed the slight rotation of the dies on the copper pattern and my coin. If the very early strike shown above doesn’t have the same rotation then in my mind that’s definitive proof that my coin was struck prior to the dies being placed for the days run of striking.

  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 …let’s see your 1794, and also, I would love to see your lazy-river that surrounds the half an acre backyard of your Hawaiian Island pad? Show me the money baby ;)

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 7:22PM

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

    Theoretically what would distinguish the piece from an early PL business strike? This is not the first time I have posted a question about other early federal specimen designations. Where does one draw the line between "specimen" and a PL piece from fresh dies? I don't think my previous thread(s) on the topic (unrelated to your coin) ever produced a fruitful response other than it was subjective.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 7:25PM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

    Theoretically what would distinguish the piece from an early PL business strike? This is not the first time I have posted a question about other early federal specimen designations. Where does one draw the line between "specimen" and a PL piece from fresh dies? I don't think my previous thread(s) on the topic ever produced a fruitful response other than it was subjective.

    The extent of the obvious polishing of the planchet pre strike

    The unique silver plug

    The extraordinary strike - not just a fresh die strike

    The lint marks

  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good write-up.

    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice, very nice.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HoledandCreative said:
    Looks like a couple of hundred thousand dollars damage to several stars, jmo. Great strike though.

    One could also say there's a million dollars worth of wear on the coin.

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Yah, they just threw the only burnished planchet with a silver plug into the hopper with all the other planchets…

    Theoretically what would distinguish the piece from an early PL business strike? This is not the first time I have posted a question about other early federal specimen designations. Where does one draw the line between "specimen" and a PL piece from fresh dies? I don't think my previous thread(s) on the topic ever produced a fruitful response other than it was subjective.

    The extent of the obvious polishing of the planchet pre strike

    The unique silver plug

    The extraordinary strike - not just a fresh die strike

    The lint marks

    Yours is the most FASCINATING SPECIMEN by far

  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2021 11:47AM

    @tradedollarnut said:

    The planchet was specially burnished. It was known in advance that the Secretary of State was attending the striking ceremony and he was presented a specimen. It makes sense that it was on a specially prepared planchet for such a dignitary. He later forwarded the coin to George Washington.

    That Randolph transmitted a coin to Washington is clear:

    https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Randolph%2C%20Edmund%22%20AND%20Correspondent%3A%22Washington%2C%20George%22%20AND%20dollar&s=1111311111&sa=&r=20&sr=

    I am not sure there are contemporary documents which confirm that Randolph actually visited the Mint, or that a striking ceremony occurred.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinosaurus said:

    @tradedollarnut said:

    The planchet was specially burnished. It was known in advance that the Secretary of State was attending the striking ceremony and he was presented a specimen. It makes sense that it was on a specially prepared planchet for such a dignitary. He later forwarded the coin to George Washington.

    That Randolph transmitted a coin to Washington is clear:

    https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Randolph%2C%20Edmund%22%20AND%20Correspondent%3A%22Washington%2C%20George%22%20AND%20dollar&s=1111311111&sa=&r=20&sr=

    I am not sure there are contemporary documents which confirm that Randolph actually visited the Mint, or that a striking ceremony occurred.

    Thank you Len, as always your insights are numismatics at their finest. Cool site, going to get lost in it tonight.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2021 12:35PM

    _On Oct. 15, 1794, there was a special ceremony honoring the first regular coinage of silver under the new government. In the hurry to begin coinage, however, it was found that the largest press available was not really powerful enough to strike silver dollars all that well. Moreover, the dies were slightly out of parallel, meaning that struck dollars would have areas, especially on the lower left of the obverse and the corresponding part of the reverse, where the design did not come up properly.

    The President was unable to attend this special event, being absent from Philadelphia, but Secretary of State Edmund Randolph did_

    https://www.numismaticnews.net/world-coins/silver-dollars-of-1794-1795-were-illegal

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2021 1:13PM

    So much for italics. Pffft

    I’m uncertain where RW Julien got this information. I thought I read before that it was from contemporary news accounts but I cannot find the link again.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Markdown does not like white space

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