Isn’t it sad...
...when a coin from a great collection loses its provenance?
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I dunno, I don’t mind when it happens since there’s few things more fun than reconnecting them.
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Please expand your comment. Where was this beautiful piece from?
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Ebay images are s'posed to show the whole slab.
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This coin looks super familiar to me but I can't put my finger on it.
Edit.. This is the Eliasberg coin. Yes it's sad. That's the best pedigree out there!
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Unattributed DDR (FS-802) to boot?
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For better or worse, coins lose their provenance all the time.
Remember this thread?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/988150/appreciating-james-a-stack
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Was it a TDN coin? Seems to have a few too many hits for a 66. Did it used to be a MS 65 coin in your holdings?
Dead people tell interesting tales.0 -
Not really, the coin hasn't changed. This is only an exercise for a few rich collectors, the rest of us aren't bothered with things like this........
My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/10 -
Certainly a beautiful Trade Dollar....one would believe it was in a great collection (as it was)....such coins rarely appear 'out of nowhere'....Cheers, RickO
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@spacehayduke said:
Not really, the coin hasn't changed. This is only an exercise for a few rich collectors, the rest of us aren't bothered with things like this........While the coin hasn't "changed," the provenance is a part of its history. And that is important to many of us, rich and poor alike.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."5 -
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It's sad but also a little strange to me. In the art world, provenance is super important. Without it, even a painting that has all the hallmarks of, say Picasso, and proper dating and analysis of materials, etc., may not be 'certified' as one. Here, we tend to accept coins at face value if they have the 'look', regardless of history or lack thereof.
PS: if you get upset about how much influence cac or the tpgs have in the coin market, please don't read about the rare art market!
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
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@tradedollarnut said:
...when a coin from a great collection loses its provenance?I am glad you are using the term Provenance as opposed to Pedigree. Provenance fits coins better.
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But the big difference with coins is that even though Eliasberg is one of the many temporary guardians in this coins history, I don't think that Eliasberg was the creator of this fine art.
@Aercus said:
It's sad but also a little strange to me. In the art world, provenance is super important. Without it, even a painting that has all the hallmarks of, say Picasso, and proper dating and analysis of materials, etc., may not be 'certified' as one. Here, we tend to accept coins at face value if they have the 'look', regardless of history or lack thereof.PS: if you get upset about how much influence cac or the tpgs have in the coin market, please don't read about the rare art market!
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A coin with a documented Provenance detailing the ownership history of same from when it was minted to the present day is very interesting and appealing.
Much more than an identical coin without a Provenance.
However, why is it that Provenance of a coin whose ownership chain consists of mint/government officials, coin dealers and collectors with high public profiles and notoriety is deemed "better" and "more desirable" than a Provenance of an identical coin whose ownership chain consists of persons who would be described as "average Joes"?
Human nature is funny. People desire to be connected with others who are famous, even if the connection is limited to purchasing and owning a hair brush that was owned by Marilyn Monroe or a beat up 1964 Kennedy half dollar that was found at the bottom of a dresser owned by Jackie Kennedy.
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Removing the Provenance may make it easier to slip it into a higher grade in the future.
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@SanctionII said:
A coin with a documented Provenance detailing the ownership history of same from when it was minted to the present day is very interesting and appealing.Much more than an identical coin without a Provenance.
However, why is it that Provenance of a coin whose ownership chain consists of mint/government officials, coin dealers and collectors with high public profiles and notoriety is deemed "better" and "more desirable" than a Provenance of an identical coin whose ownership chain consists of persons who would be described as "average Joes"?
Human nature is funny. People desire to be connected with others who are famous, even if the connection is limited to purchasing and owning a hair brush that was owned by Marilyn Monroe or a beat up 1964 Kennedy half dollar that was found at the bottom of a dresser owned by Jackie Kennedy.
It's all about how interesting of a story it is to tell. If I told you this beat up half half dollar was in my Dad's drawer how interesting would you find that? You have never meet or heard of my Dad. But what if it was a famous person? How about someone with a connection to the person depicted on the coin? Now that is a story, that is more interesting.
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I thought if you could prove the Provenance you could have it added back. Certainly this could should be easy to prove.
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“My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away”Seated Half Society member #38
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."6 -
Yes it is sad when a coin loses its provenance. The provenance is part of the history of the coin. I wonder how many Pogue coins have already been broken out of their holders?
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@Insider2 said:
Removing the Provenance may make it easier to slip it into a higher grade in the future.Never looked at it like that, Skip.
A stealth coin. HMMM
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon1 -
I hate it when ANY OGH or Fatty is cracked, so yes, this is especially disturbing.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
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@tradedollarnut said:
Fwiw - that coin graded 66 in 1997That makes it WORSE. :'(
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
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@tradedollarnut said:
Fwiw - that coin graded 66 in 1997It has an old school TrueView too. These days, it's a pop 13/10.
The provenance isn't listed by PCGS, but perhaps they can add it back like they've done for others?
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One of my favorite activities has been tracing and reestablishing the provenances of coin in my collection.
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I just noticed that the coin is now in a Gold Shield holder which was only available after Jan 1, 2018.
Given this, I wonder if the MS66 grade was reviewed and reconfirmed in 2018 or 2019. There is a noticeable gouge between the 3rd and 4th stars.
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@Aercus said:
It's sad but also a little strange to me. In the art world, provenance is super important. Without it, even a painting that has all the hallmarks of, say Picasso, and proper dating and analysis of materials, etc., may not be 'certified' as one. Here, we tend to accept coins at face value if they have the 'look', regardless of history or lack thereof.PS: if you get upset about how much influence cac or the tpgs have in the coin market, please don't read about the rare art market!
It isn't strange, as there is no equivalence between coins or most other collectible fields. I haven't read much on art but I presume that what you describe is partly to confirm authenticity. This mostly doesn't apply to coins, since most of the time it can be compared to another one.
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@Insider2 said:
Removing the Provenance may make it easier to slip it into a higher grade in the future.Yes. This is the only reason for doing so. Removing the provenance (assuming the collection to which it was tied was really important) would decrease the value of the coin in the eyes of some (possibly all) potential buyers.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
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CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]0 -
It's about as sad as a slab losing a CAC sticker.
Collect the coin, not the previous owner.
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@ms70 said:
It's about as sad as a slab losing a CAC sticker.MUCH worse in my opinion.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]0 -
Still MS 66 all day and all night long.
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@Boosibri said:
One of my favorite activities has been tracing and reestablishing the provenances of coin in my collection.So, when I purchased this coin from a Heritage auction, there was no provenance listed whatsoever and it had not been seen by CAC.
After researching the coin (as it does have some unique markers), I discovered its true provenance, which was listed when I sold it in 2013:
Pedigree: George F. Seavey, 1873; Lorin G. Parmelee; New York Stamp & Coin Co.'s sale of June 1890, lot 775; Harlan P. Smith; Dr. Henry W. Beckwith; S.H. Chapman's sale of April 1923, lot 19; S.H. Chapman; George W. Bowers; J. C. Morgenthau and Co.'s Sale #404, July 1939, lot 648; Judge Thomas L. Gaskill; New Netherlands Coin Co., November 1956; Dorothy I. Paschal; New Netherlands Coin Co.'s Sale #50, December 1957, lot 1123; F. Dabney Caldwell, Jr.; our (Stack's) sale of April 1988, lot 2016; Tony Terranova; Gilbert Steinberg Collection; Superior's sale of September 1996, lot 1567; Don Anderson Collection; Heritage's Forth Worth, TX ANA Sale, March 2010, lot 112; Cardinal Collection.
It's just a shame when the provenance is lost!
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@cardinal said:
@Boosibri said:
One of my favorite activities has been tracing and reestablishing the provenances of coin in my collection.So, when I purchased this coin from a Heritage auction, there was no provenance listed whatsoever and it had not been seen by CAC.
After researching the coin (as it does have some unique markers), I discovered its true provenance, which was listed when I sold it in 2013:
Pedigree: George F. Seavey, 1873; Lorin G. Parmelee; New York Stamp & Coin Co.'s sale of June 1890, lot 775; Harlan P. Smith; Dr. Henry W. Beckwith; S.H. Chapman's sale of April 1923, lot 19; S.H. Chapman; George W. Bowers; J. C. Morgenthau and Co.'s Sale #404, July 1939, lot 648; Judge Thomas L. Gaskill; New Netherlands Coin Co., November 1956; Dorothy I. Paschal; New Netherlands Coin Co.'s Sale #50, December 1957, lot 1123; F. Dabney Caldwell, Jr.; our (Stack's) sale of April 1988, lot 2016; Tony Terranova; Gilbert Steinberg Collection; Superior's sale of September 1996, lot 1567; Don Anderson Collection; Heritage's Forth Worth, TX ANA Sale, March 2010, lot 112; Cardinal Collection.
It's just a shame when the provenance is lost!
Awesome accomplishment for adding it back.
Are auction descriptions the only major way to keep track of detailed provenance lists like this?
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@cardinal said:
@Boosibri said:
One of my favorite activities has been tracing and reestablishing the provenances of coin in my collection.So, when I purchased this coin from a Heritage auction, there was no provenance listed whatsoever and it had not been seen by CAC.
After researching the coin (as it does have some unique markers), I discovered its true provenance, which was listed when I sold it in 2013:
Pedigree: George F. Seavey, 1873; Lorin G. Parmelee; New York Stamp & Coin Co.'s sale of June 1890, lot 775; Harlan P. Smith; Dr. Henry W. Beckwith; S.H. Chapman's sale of April 1923, lot 19; S.H. Chapman; George W. Bowers; J. C. Morgenthau and Co.'s Sale #404, July 1939, lot 648; Judge Thomas L. Gaskill; New Netherlands Coin Co., November 1956; Dorothy I. Paschal; New Netherlands Coin Co.'s Sale #50, December 1957, lot 1123; F. Dabney Caldwell, Jr.; our (Stack's) sale of April 1988, lot 2016; Tony Terranova; Gilbert Steinberg Collection; Superior's sale of September 1996, lot 1567; Don Anderson Collection; Heritage's Forth Worth, TX ANA Sale, March 2010, lot 112; Cardinal Collection.
It's just a shame when the provenance is lost!
I can't believe that this coin is only a VF35! Really nice!
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I thought the same...mustta been an EAC grader that wanted to buy it cheap!
@DIMEMAN said:
@cardinal said:
@Boosibri said:
One of my favorite activities has been tracing and reestablishing the provenances of coin in my collection.So, when I purchased this coin from a Heritage auction, there was no provenance listed whatsoever and it had not been seen by CAC.
After researching the coin (as it does have some unique markers), I discovered its true provenance, which was listed when I sold it in 2013:
Pedigree: George F. Seavey, 1873; Lorin G. Parmelee; New York Stamp & Coin Co.'s sale of June 1890, lot 775; Harlan P. Smith; Dr. Henry W. Beckwith; S.H. Chapman's sale of April 1923, lot 19; S.H. Chapman; George W. Bowers; J. C. Morgenthau and Co.'s Sale #404, July 1939, lot 648; Judge Thomas L. Gaskill; New Netherlands Coin Co., November 1956; Dorothy I. Paschal; New Netherlands Coin Co.'s Sale #50, December 1957, lot 1123; F. Dabney Caldwell, Jr.; our (Stack's) sale of April 1988, lot 2016; Tony Terranova; Gilbert Steinberg Collection; Superior's sale of September 1996, lot 1567; Don Anderson Collection; Heritage's Forth Worth, TX ANA Sale, March 2010, lot 112; Cardinal Collection.
It's just a shame when the provenance is lost!
I can't believe that this coin is only a VF35! Really nice!
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@ms70 said:
It's about as sad as a slab losing a CAC sticker.Collect the coin, not the previous owner.
To each his own. But the way I look at it, a coin is just a lump of metal without the information it conveys, so it makes perfect sense that more information can make for a better coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.5 -
Not really. I value coins and not the temporary guardians that store them.
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@tradedollarnut said:
Fwiw - that coin graded 66 in 1997.
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Was it in a slab holder with Eliasberg noted or was it before dipping and you recognized it?As it appears now, I would have had a hard time matching it to the Eliasberg catalog. It would take someone who had previous knowledge of it to tie it back easily.
Here are some captures from the 1996 Eliasberg catalog as it appears on the Newman Numismatic Portal which then leads to the enlargeable catalogs on archive.org. Sold for $13.200 in 1996.
Looks like there are some remaining toning areas just enough to match it up if you already know it is the same coin. Like the toning below the left armpit area and around the 3rd star, plus a few others, unless in-person shows more obvious markers. Otherwise, seems like this one could easily become permanently disconnected from Eliasberg.
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=4&AuctionId=525063
https://archive.org/details/louiseeliasbergs1997bowe/page/360/mode/2up
Color photo is partially cut off online:
And from the Ebay listing:
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This is why I always ask sellers if they can tell me any information about a coin's origin or how it came into their possession, story can make a coin much more interesting than it would be otherwise. I recently picked up a sub-100 world crown, which was listed without any description of where it came from; when asked, the seller identified the coin as a souvenir from the Second World War brought back by his father, and provided his name, rank, and Navy vessel. Part of the story that would have been lost otherwise.
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@ms70 said:
It's about as sad as a slab losing a CAC sticker.Collect the coin, not the previous owner.
Yes and no. I just bought something pedigreed to John J Ford. I didn't buy it BECAUSE of the pedigree (and if I didn't like it, the pedigree wouldn't have changed my mind), but I do appreciate that I now hold something that someone of Ford's stature considered worthy of his collection.
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Yea, sad. I'm all broken up.
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how many of these high cost coins are really sold on the bay of E?
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@MrEureka said:
@ms70 said:
It's about as sad as a slab losing a CAC sticker.Collect the coin, not the previous owner.
To each his own. But the way I look at it, a coin is just a lump of metal without the information it conveys, so it makes perfect sense that more information can make for a better coin.
You make a good point MrEureka. I respect it........and.......I suspect ms70 is being somewhat facetious. Either way, I think you're BOTH right.
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It seems from most of the responses here a coin's provenance is only important if the previous custodian was a millionaire. Sort of like people being star-struck by a Hollywood celebrity.
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@ms70 said:
It seems from most of the responses here a coin's provenance is only important if the previous custodian was a millionaire. Sort of like people being star-struck by a Hollywood celebrity.I'm not sure I agree in general, although there are relatively few provenances I personally would care much about. And I imagine all of those folks were pretty well off.
As an aside, there are over 5 million millionaires in the US nowadays. A million bucks ain't what it used to be.
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@CoinJunkie said:
@ms70 said:
It seems from most of the responses here a coin's provenance is only important if the previous custodian was a millionaire. Sort of like people being star-struck by a Hollywood celebrity.I'm not sure I agree in general, although there are relatively few provenances I personally would care much about. And I imagine all of those folks were pretty well off.
As an aside, there are over 5 million millionaires in the US nowadays. A million bucks ain't what it used to be.
Maybe I should've more accurately stated multi-kajillionaire.
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