@BigMoose said:
Nic, not so sure about the respect part--I have been called a Rear Admiral by Colonel Jessup and I don't think it was a compliment. If Shamhart ever gets wind of this I will never hear the end of it!
@MrEureka: If you exclude the Clapp coins, the Eliasberg does not look like anything special in terms of overall quality.
@Washingtonia: Interesting, I never paid attention to the distinction between Clapp-Eliasberg and straight Eliasberg coins. This forum is great! Thanks.
@ColonelJessup: @Analyst, Having taken more copious notes than I, I'm curious as to your impressions of/distinctions between Clapp and non-Clapp overall?
Me(on 09/04/17): Eliasberg acquired a significant number of gem coins that were never in the Clapp Family Collection. ... I prefer to postpone a detailed response to the Colonel's question. Indeed, the non-Clapp gems in the Eliasberg Collection would be good topic for an article.
I thank Colonel Jessup for encouraging me to further investigate this topic. As Mr. Eureka implied, the vast majority of pre-1900 gems in the Eliasberg Collection were from the Clapp Collection. Moreover, while many of the Clapp-Eliasberg coins are technically astonishing and scream that they are gems, some of the non-Clapp Eliasberg gems require more of an explanation for gem grades to be understood. In many cases, a non-Clapp Eliasberg gem may have reached a 65 grade by having the 'look of a 66' and a technical rating of 64, with 65 being a laboriously balanced net grade.
Even the wonderful non-Clapp, Eliasberg 1884 and 1885 Trade Dollars have plenty of minor imperfections. With a magnifying glass, they do not look nearly as great as they do with naked eyes. Their respective eye appeal was largely responsible for the gem grades they received ATS. (Yes, MrEureka and Colonel Jessup, I took detailed notes about the 1884 and 1885 Trade Dollars, and about many early U..S. silver coins in the Eliasberg Collection.) Notes are sometimes needed to analyze why a coin merits a gem grade, if it does.
The non-Clapp Eliasberg S-4 Chain Cent, too, probably received a 65 grade largely because of its eye appeal; this coin has imperfections that may have caused the Clapps to reject it if either of them ever saw it?
@Roadrunner: And a lot of those Clapp coins were picked right from the USMint or possibly the local bank
For my most recent article, I narrowed my research to coins dated from before 1900, mostly from before 1860. I focused on coins that the Clapps purchased via auctions or from dealers rather than coins that were obtained around the time of their respective issue. The Clapps had an amazing assemblage of coins dating from 1793 to 1860 that were later graded from 65 to 68 by PCGS, including many that fairly grade 66 or 67!
Hypothetically, suppose that Eliasberg had turned down the Clapp Collection in 1942 and never purchased such a collection intact. Would he then have acquired a large number of gem quality classic U.S. coins, dating from the 1790s to the 1890s? We will never know. While there does not seem to be much evidence that he was focused upon or enthusiastic about gem quality coins, he may deserve the benefit of the doubt, given the unusual circumstances and the fact that his collection was the all-time best. In any event, I cover multiple angles in this article and present a considerable amount of evidence relating to both positive and negative responses to the title-question.
Excellent article Analyst. The topic is interesting and the analysis provides historical perspective on the overall Eliasberg collection as well as critique of individual coins. It also makes me appreciate the Clapp provenance. A couple of years ago, i purchased an important rarity not knowing the provenance which turned out to be Eliasberg/Clapp!
D. L. Hansen. I recently discovered this blog and thought I could add some clarity to the discussion. I am serious collector that enjoys history and The relationship the coins play in our nations history. The Civil War, the opening of the US mint, toned coins and being addicted with the mind dilemma of ADD I need to finish things. Quality matters and building friendships with dealers and collectors teaches me so much. I'm a student of Numnastics
The current Internet era allows for much deeper study then Luis Eliasburg had during his lifetime. I believe we can better compare coins in various grades today which allows for higher grades in most cases. I do not believe you can equal the completeness of Luis Eliasburg And example would be the 1822 five dollar gold piece I recently viewed in the Smithsonian. You cannot complete the five dollar gold collection. However I believe that you can overtime improve the quality because of our superior ability to study coins today but no one myself included will not be the same collection Eliasburg did. His accomplishment amazes me.
I do hope to build the complete collection to 1964 that is in a better grade but will never be as complete. The quest is to make it as complete as possible in the modern era. We all need to focus and that is my goal it will take years if not decades is to fully accomplish this objective
We collect because it is hard and rewarding to find hidden gems that are beautiful and rare. I enjoyed the fraternity a fellow collectors and seek to upgrade our stature as serious and dedicated collectors that admire each other's efforts
Thank you for the appreciation shown for my efforts. I enjoy what I do and I enjoy the people like yourself still enjoy this also. Continue seeking for the best
DLHansen
Welcome Mr. Hansen and what a great first post. That was a nice surprise. Congrats on taking on this project. You've certainly picked up some remarkable dream coins along the way.
If you are single boy do I have a girl for you in NJ
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I woke up this morning to your nice comments thank you. In life it's easier to judge than to support and understand. My goal in life is to understand first and seldom judge. This seems to be a great fourum with supportive people . our goal should be to build remarkable collections that we are individually proud of based on our capacities and taste. I obviously am pursuing something that is very individual yet part of the big fraternity that shares in varying opinions and visions of what coin collecting is. PCGS has changed the way we communicate with each other. Some for the better and some that creates contention over what is real quality.
I've always believed that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I obviously have purchased some coins that are slot fillers that will be replaced overtime with more appropriate coins thatbalance the set. I have a deep seeded need to finish like the movie the accountant. I just don't have to kill people. Starting a particular set virtually requires that I finish it. At times leads to a less than perfect coin in the set. The beauty of collecting is that it never ends we are always request for improvement. I doubt that this collection will ever be complete during my lifetime at some point it will just stand where it is but I Always expect to be improving it.
I just acquired the 1870 S seated liberty dollar in AU 53. I studied carefully the AU 58 which I consider to be darker in tone and less attractive to me personally than the AU 53 which is the third finest however it is the coin that I would like in my collection personally. Others may judge it a weaker choice John Albanese and I believe it was the best choice. His analysis helped me make the choice. Again I appreciate knowledgeable people in dealers helping me make this analysis. There are a lot of opinions on that 1894 S barber Dime. If any of you have a favorite PCGS number I would appreciate knowing that and why you think it would be the best coin for a set like mine
I wish each and everyone of you a great day enjoy building memorable things that you can be proud of I know I will
@Dell, welcome,
Enjoy the "Eliasberg-Stanford-SmokeRise" 1870-S $1.
Knowing the seller personally, I hope you get as much pleasure and satisfaction from it as he has,
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
You already have a great collection. I am sure you will make it even better over time.
I hope our paths cross at a show in the near future. I would like to meet you.
Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
Welcome to the forum! Even though I'm a collector of primarily Mexico Colonials, I have been following your efforts closely and looking forward to seeing your impressive set evolve.
Congratulations are nearly in order - with the 1870-s added to the set, once he has an 1851 it will be only the third complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed
Very impressive. I always wonder what coins are being added to the complete sets. It usually takes out my computer just trying to load the set. I have found I can figure it out by going to the individual sets.
Keep up the work. I love to watch the set grow as a casual observer.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Nice to see you join in! The Eliasberg 70-S is a great coin. I've also owned it and actually sold it to the East Coast collector whom you just purchased it. Congrats
Dell: I am serious collector [who] enjoys history and the relationship the coins play in our nations history, the Civil War, the opening of the US Mint, toned coins, and being addicted with the mind dilemma of ADD I need to finish things.
I appreciate this statement. It certainly is illuminating and addresses points raised my multiple participants in this thread.
Dell: I believe we can better compare coins in various grades today which allows for higher grades in most cases.
A vast number of pre-1880 Clapp-Eliasberg coins have been PCGS graded from 65 to 69, with many grading 66 or 67! Many post-1880 Clapp Eliasberg coins have received such grades, too, though this is less impressive as the Clapps obtained many coins directly from U.S. Mints after 1880, Even so, they knew to demand gems from the mints and the Clapps properly stored them. If just coins dating from 1793 to 1917 are considered, and very common coins minted during that period are excluded, the Clapp-Eliasberg achievement, in terms of quality, is mind-blowing. I will believe in the existence of a better such group when I see the actual coins.
Also, coin doctoring practices have become more advanced and more prevalent since Eliasberg was very active.
Dell: You cannot complete the five dollar gold collection.
At some point, the Pogues had planed to consign the Eliasberg-Pogue 1854-S without reserve. Minds were changed. In 2016, an aggressive reserve was placed. Even so, I would not assume that this coin will be 'off-the-market' for decades. Also, the Walton-DuPont 1854-S $5 gold is still out there. If it has not yet been recovered, it might be in the future, and sold.
Dell: The quest is to make it as complete as possible in the modern era. We all need to focus and that is my goal it will take years if not decades is to fully accomplish this objective. ... . I have a deep seeded need to finish like the movie The Accountant. I just don't have to kill people. Starting a particular set virtually requires that I finish it. At times leads to a less than perfect coin in the set. The beauty of collecting is that it never ends we are always request for improvement. I doubt that this collection will ever be complete during my lifetime at some point it will just stand where it is but I Always expect to be improving
This statement suggests that completeness is the primary objective, and some of the other aspects that were mentioned in this thread are much lower priorities. If so, these are extremely important remarks in the history of coin collecting. Thanks, Dell, if "Dell" really is Dell Hansen. Do CU-PCGS-forum moderators verify announcements by participants who are identifying themselves as famous collectors?
JustaCommeman: Welcome Mr. Hansen and what a great first post. That was a nice surprise. Congrats on taking on this project. You've certainly picked up some remarkable dream coins along the way.
Yes, assuming Dell really is Dell, I share such thoughts.
Dell: I just acquired the 1870 S seated liberty dollar in AU 53. I studied carefully the AU 58 which I consider to be darker in tone and less attractive to me personally than the AU 53 which is the third finest however it is the coin that I would like in my collection personally.
So far, this is the statement by Dell that I appreciate the most. A PCGS graded AU-53 1870-S dollar was chosen over a PCGS graded AU-58 1870-S dollar. Rather than chase the highest-certified coins, other factors are being taken into consideration. In this particular case, however, I tend to prefer the PCGS graded AU-58 1870-s, the Norweb coin, over the PCGS graded AU-53 Eliasberg 1870-S.
Although the Norweb 1870-s has a few nasty scratches, it is relatively much more original than the Eliasberg piece. The rich toning must be more than a century old; perhaps it was never dipped or cleaned. I will dig out my notes when I get a chance.
Dell: Others may judge it a weaker choice John Albanese and I believe it was the best choice. His analysis helped me make the choice.
The Norweb, PCGS graded AU-58 1870-S has a CAC sticker, despite the scratches. John must have been very impressed by it.
"In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
Welcome, I hope you contribute here often and please post picture of some of your newly acquired pieces, as you add them or when you get upgrades, cant wait to see some.
CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION
In a previous post on this thread, I stated I sold the Eliasberg 70S to the East Coast Collector who just sold it to DLH. This is incorrect. I sold the Eliasberg 70S dollar at the Milwaukee Summer ANA show 10 years ago wholesale, where it traded hands and ended up selling to JA who then sold it to his customer. I apologize both to JA and the East Coast Collector.
As I get older my memory is not quite as sharp. I believe John Feigenbaum and I bought it from TDN/Legend right after you bought your MS coin (earlier than 2007). I then sold it to one of my customers and subsequently brought it out at the Milwaukee ANA where I resold it. Don't roast me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the chain of events.
You already have a fantastic collection. I have followed it as you have built it and I think you are doing a fantastic job with it. Continued success with your sets and your other ventures. Oh, and...
Dell - congrats on your accomplishments thus far. It is great to see an Eliasberg-style collector, as coin collecting has become more specialized for most.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@Justacommeman said: "BigMoose is one of my favorite people I've met via coins. He also has exquisite breath. Powerful combination. I had a dinner once with the Colonel, BigMoose and TomB. One of the highlights of my numismatic career. I shut up and took notes. They have forgot more then I knew. I think TDN was at the table across from us."
Just finished catching up with this thread. Since the discussion has not always stayed on track - let's take another quick detour and play a crude, low-class game: "Guess the amount of their total check" for this dinner. I'll go first. $825.
@AllCoinsRule had one of his coins change grades from MS-66 FS to MS-67 FS at the same grading service in a relativity short period of time. I have found that the difference in these two grades can be very small, especially when color is included.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said: "I have watched Mr. Hansen win a 1913 Lincoln cent graded PCGS ms 67+ red and pop 1 in auction for $ 35,000.
I don't wish Mr. Hanson any bad luck. I think what he is doing all by himself can only help the retail coin market. Nevertheless, as a relatively new "serious" collector, I think he will learn a hard lesson about the reactivity of red copper, spotting, and coin populations sometime in the future. I hope I'm wrong.
Egg on face! LOL. Welcome to the forum Mr. Hanson. As you can see, I didn't get to the end of the thread before posting. Nevertheless, I do not take back anything I said. I stopped collecting Red copper in 1968 due to deterioration to the coins. With your means, I'm sure you have a temperature and humidity controlled environment for the collection you are building. Unfortunately, coins in slabs will turn. As I posted, I wish you well.
Next, some advice you don't probably need. If you slow down just a little, you will not be purchasing common coins graded M-65 or 66 and then later buying an MS-68 top pop to replace them. It just "eats" money. However, I know I could not follow my own advice if I had your money. Additionally, if you are like most of us, your tastes may change the more you learn. I sounds like you have many of the top people in the business helping you.
Finally, I have enjoyed reading your well expressed comments and what numismatics means to you. I have no idea where you'll get the time to continue posting such as you have already but I hope you do. This forum is populated with some of the foremost numismatic dealers, teachers, and collectors. I know you'll enjoy learning from them as much as I do.
I guess my "finally" came too soon. You have probably already planed to do this as Bob is an instructor at the ANA Summer Seminar but if you have not, you owe it to yourself to attend at least one session. I'll bet you'll return over-and-over.
Dell you are an inspiration to me. I'll never spend even 98% of what have but I love collecting coins. It is great to hear you have such confidence in coins.
@tradedollarnut said:
Congratulations are nearly in order - with the 1870-s added to the set, once he has an 1851 it will be only the third complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed
Congratulations Dell. I'm a big fan of both TDN and your seated dollar set! I am a relatively new seated dollar collector myself but striving to to be the fourth complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed. They are such great coins!
Insider ... stop. And please leave Sarasota if still there.
We have a thread running called "Post something funny to get your LOL count up." You may wish to move your post over to that thread as you should collect a few! I'll give you one for sure.
TDN: Congratulations are nearly in order - with the 1870-s added to the set, once he has an 1851 it will be only the third complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed
Although I admit never having researched this particular point myself, TDN's conclusion here surprises me a little. There is a high probability that Virgil Branch had a complete set. Waldo Newcomer and Col. E. H. R. Green may very well have had such sets, too. It was typical for Brand to collect five or more representatives of individual dates. He could have had both business strike and Proof 1851 and 1852 dollars.
Col. Green liked having duplicates as well. He had all five 1913 Liberty Nickels. Much less than half of Col. Green's classic U.S. coins were offered in the auctions of Newman's coins over the last half-dozen years. Green's collection was greater in quantity and depth than that of Newman, though Green did not understand numismatics to the extent that Newman did or still does.
Eliasberg's duplicates were offered in a Stack's auction in the late 1940s and in a New Netherlands auction during the 1950s. Although I do not have time to research Eliasberg's history of acquiring Liberty Seated dollars at this moment, there are cases where Eliasberg kept a Proof and sold a business strike of the same type and date.
In the past, collectors considered Proofs to be superior to business strikes for coins of approximately the same quality, and mixed Proofs and business strikes in the same sets. We do not know how many collectors sold business strike Liberty Seated dollars of various Philadelphia Mint dates after acquiring Proofs of those same respective dates. There must have been more than two collectors who completed business strike sets of Liberty Seated Dollars. Did H. O. Granberg collect these?
Nysoto: It is great to see an Eliasberg-style collector, as coin collecting has become more specialized for most.
As there are mysteries regarding Eliasberg's level of knowledge nd the nature of his objectives other than completeness, the term "an Eliasberg-style collector" is very ambiguous. If Nysoto means someone who is collecting all Classic U.S. coins rather than particular series, time periods, denominations or metals, then Nysoto is making an excellent point. Other than Hansen and "High Desert," is anyone else now collecting high quality coins by date of many series of Classic U.S. coins, spanning all time periods, and including copper, nickel, silver and gold?
TDN: ... most well to do collectors of the late 19th and early 20th century sought out proofs of the Philly coins.
I said this in my post just above, and I indicated a primary reason why. I also said that Virgil Brand often had more than five representatives of a particular date, sometimes even more than ten! It is very plausible that Brand had both business strikes and Proofs of 1851 and 1852 dollars. I just mentioned the names of other collectors who very plausibly could have had complete sets of business strike Liberty Seated dollars.
TDN: My conclusion is sound -
Before drawing a conclusion, we should investigate the holdings of Liberty Seated Dollars in the Virgil Brand, Col. Green, H. O. Granberg and Waldo Newcomer collections. As indicated above, it would make sense to focus on the Liberty Seated Dollars that Eliasberg consigned to auctions of his duplicates in the late 1940s by Stack's and in the 1950s by New Netherlands. Could Eliasberg have had a complete set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars before consigning duplicates to auctions?
@Dell said:
I just acquired the 1870 S seated liberty dollar in AU 53. I studied carefully the AU 58 which I consider to be darker in tone and less attractive to me personally than the AU 53 which is the third finest however it is the coin that I would like in my collection personally. Others may judge it a weaker choice John Albanese and I believe it was the best choice. His analysis helped me make the choice. Again I appreciate knowledgeable people in dealers helping me make this analysis.
Welcome! I am glad to hear that you are pursuing the best coins that meet your personal taste regardless of the grading service insert. Too many unfortunately become fixated only on the latter. I cannot wait to see your set once it is finished, and I wish you the best in assembling a historic set.
@tradedollarnut posted,"Congratulations are nearly in order - with the 1870-s added to the set, once he has an 1851 it will be only the third complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed."
I've collected and researched both the early U.S. Silver Dollars 1794 to 1803 and Seated Dollars 1840-1873 for for over 25 years now. My primary focus has been the "famous collectors and collections of the early dollars by type and die marriage."
A long the way I discovered many of the serious early dollar collectors collected all silver dollars, meaning early dollars by die marriage, Gobrecht Dollars, Seated Dollars in both circulation and Proof, Trade Dollars, Morgan and Peace Dollars, Pattern Dollars, and Lesher Dollars!
I published an article on some of these collectors and collections in the Gobrecht Journal Volume 39 / No. 117, July 2013, pages 17-26. The article is titled, "Little Known but Important Seated Dollar Collectors and Collections." Here is a link to this Journal and article courtesy of the Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) and the Newman Numismatic Portal:
Although my research is on-going, I have so far found four complete collections of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark completed in the 20th Century. The key words in the above statement by @tradedollarnut is "circulation strike seated dollar set." The four complete sets I have found all are a combination of Proof and Business Strikes. These four sets included an example of the 1858 Philadelphia Seated Dollar (Proof only) which technically is necessary to have a complete set by date and mint mark. Circulation strikes are not known for 1858 Dollars.
I believe TDN is likely correct in that his Seated Dollar set may be the first complete set of circulation strike Seated Dollars.
As you will see in the article, F.C.C. Boyd was the first collector I found that completed a set of all dates and mint marks for the Seated Dollars. Boyd's set was sold at public auction by the Numismatic Gallery in Part I of the World's Greatest Collection of United States Silver Coins His set was a combination of circulation strikes and Proofs - for many of the Philadelphia Seated Dollars he had both circulation and Proofs for each date!
Milferd H. Bolender, W. G. Baldenhofer, and the Ostheimers all completed sets of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark as you will see in the article. Like with Boyd's collection, these four complete sets were combinations of business strikes and Proofs, and all included the 1858 Proof only Dollar. There may be others who had complete sets, as some have suggested. These sets, if they exist, likely would likely be a combination of circulation strikes and Proofs.
One key to learning if anyone else competed a set of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark will be to take the names of every collector listed in the pedigrees of the 1870-S Dollars and see if they had a collection with all of the other Seated Dollar dates and mint marks. I someday hope to pursue this project.
Great article! I'm not trying to be tricky with my assertion- I just realize that collecting methods have changed - now proofs are collected separately from business strikes. I anticipate that the 1858 and 1895 proof dollars will lose stature because of this trend.
What I can state with nearly 100% certainty is that my set was the first ever completed in 100% uncirculated condition
Comments
I'll text him!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
@MrEureka:
@Washingtonia:
@ColonelJessup:
Me(on 09/04/17): Eliasberg acquired a significant number of gem coins that were never in the Clapp Family Collection. ... I prefer to postpone a detailed response to the Colonel's question. Indeed, the non-Clapp gems in the Eliasberg Collection would be good topic for an article.
I thank Colonel Jessup for encouraging me to further investigate this topic. As Mr. Eureka implied, the vast majority of pre-1900 gems in the Eliasberg Collection were from the Clapp Collection. Moreover, while many of the Clapp-Eliasberg coins are technically astonishing and scream that they are gems, some of the non-Clapp Eliasberg gems require more of an explanation for gem grades to be understood. In many cases, a non-Clapp Eliasberg gem may have reached a 65 grade by having the 'look of a 66' and a technical rating of 64, with 65 being a laboriously balanced net grade.
Even the wonderful non-Clapp, Eliasberg 1884 and 1885 Trade Dollars have plenty of minor imperfections. With a magnifying glass, they do not look nearly as great as they do with naked eyes. Their respective eye appeal was largely responsible for the gem grades they received ATS. (Yes, MrEureka and Colonel Jessup, I took detailed notes about the 1884 and 1885 Trade Dollars, and about many early U..S. silver coins in the Eliasberg Collection.) Notes are sometimes needed to analyze why a coin merits a gem grade, if it does.
The non-Clapp Eliasberg S-4 Chain Cent, too, probably received a 65 grade largely because of its eye appeal; this coin has imperfections that may have caused the Clapps to reject it if either of them ever saw it?
A Non-Clapp Eliasberg Large Cent Brought $1.38 million in January 2012
@Roadrunner:
For my most recent article, I narrowed my research to coins dated from before 1900, mostly from before 1860. I focused on coins that the Clapps purchased via auctions or from dealers rather than coins that were obtained around the time of their respective issue. The Clapps had an amazing assemblage of coins dating from 1793 to 1860 that were later graded from 65 to 68 by PCGS, including many that fairly grade 66 or 67!
Hypothetically, suppose that Eliasberg had turned down the Clapp Collection in 1942 and never purchased such a collection intact. Would he then have acquired a large number of gem quality classic U.S. coins, dating from the 1790s to the 1890s? We will never know. While there does not seem to be much evidence that he was focused upon or enthusiastic about gem quality coins, he may deserve the benefit of the doubt, given the unusual circumstances and the fact that his collection was the all-time best. In any event, I cover multiple angles in this article and present a considerable amount of evidence relating to both positive and negative responses to the title-question.
Did Louis Eliasberg Understand and Pursue Gem Quality Coins?
Excellent article Analyst. The topic is interesting and the analysis provides historical perspective on the overall Eliasberg collection as well as critique of individual coins. It also makes me appreciate the Clapp provenance. A couple of years ago, i purchased an important rarity not knowing the provenance which turned out to be Eliasberg/Clapp!
D. L. Hansen. I recently discovered this blog and thought I could add some clarity to the discussion. I am serious collector that enjoys history and The relationship the coins play in our nations history. The Civil War, the opening of the US mint, toned coins and being addicted with the mind dilemma of ADD I need to finish things. Quality matters and building friendships with dealers and collectors teaches me so much. I'm a student of Numnastics
The current Internet era allows for much deeper study then Luis Eliasburg had during his lifetime. I believe we can better compare coins in various grades today which allows for higher grades in most cases. I do not believe you can equal the completeness of Luis Eliasburg And example would be the 1822 five dollar gold piece I recently viewed in the Smithsonian. You cannot complete the five dollar gold collection. However I believe that you can overtime improve the quality because of our superior ability to study coins today but no one myself included will not be the same collection Eliasburg did. His accomplishment amazes me.
I do hope to build the complete collection to 1964 that is in a better grade but will never be as complete. The quest is to make it as complete as possible in the modern era. We all need to focus and that is my goal it will take years if not decades is to fully accomplish this objective
We collect because it is hard and rewarding to find hidden gems that are beautiful and rare. I enjoyed the fraternity a fellow collectors and seek to upgrade our stature as serious and dedicated collectors that admire each other's efforts
Thank you for the appreciation shown for my efforts. I enjoy what I do and I enjoy the people like yourself still enjoy this also. Continue seeking for the best
DLHansen
Welcome Mr. Hansen and what a great first post. That was a nice surprise. Congrats on taking on this project. You've certainly picked up some remarkable dream coins along the way.
If you are single boy do I have a girl for you in NJ
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Welcome!
Welcome !
DLH, thank you for joining the forum. Your viewpoint and opinions are most welcome here.
OINK
Welcome Dell and thanks for joining!
Welcome. This is quite a challenge you have undertaken.
I woke up this morning to your nice comments thank you. In life it's easier to judge than to support and understand. My goal in life is to understand first and seldom judge. This seems to be a great fourum with supportive people . our goal should be to build remarkable collections that we are individually proud of based on our capacities and taste. I obviously am pursuing something that is very individual yet part of the big fraternity that shares in varying opinions and visions of what coin collecting is. PCGS has changed the way we communicate with each other. Some for the better and some that creates contention over what is real quality.
I've always believed that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I obviously have purchased some coins that are slot fillers that will be replaced overtime with more appropriate coins thatbalance the set. I have a deep seeded need to finish like the movie the accountant. I just don't have to kill people. Starting a particular set virtually requires that I finish it. At times leads to a less than perfect coin in the set. The beauty of collecting is that it never ends we are always request for improvement. I doubt that this collection will ever be complete during my lifetime at some point it will just stand where it is but I Always expect to be improving it.
I just acquired the 1870 S seated liberty dollar in AU 53. I studied carefully the AU 58 which I consider to be darker in tone and less attractive to me personally than the AU 53 which is the third finest however it is the coin that I would like in my collection personally. Others may judge it a weaker choice John Albanese and I believe it was the best choice. His analysis helped me make the choice. Again I appreciate knowledgeable people in dealers helping me make this analysis. There are a lot of opinions on that 1894 S barber Dime. If any of you have a favorite PCGS number I would appreciate knowing that and why you think it would be the best coin for a set like mine
I wish each and everyone of you a great day enjoy building memorable things that you can be proud of I know I will
Dell Loy Hansen
Welcome Mr DH! Be careful. Participating here in this forum can become a bit addictive itself.
Fun to hear your insights.
Welcome here Mr. Hansen, we all look forward eagerly to admiring your coins, seeing your new acquisitions, and hearing your comments regarding them.
Kind regards,
George
@Dell, welcome,
Enjoy the "Eliasberg-Stanford-SmokeRise" 1870-S $1.
Knowing the seller personally, I hope you get as much pleasure and satisfaction from it as he has,
Great to have you on the forum. Welcome.
I started with that very 1870-S in my set.
In case you want the 1997-2007 provenance:
Eliasberg- Share - Legend
You already have a great collection. I am sure you will make it even better over time.
I hope our paths cross at a show in the near future. I would like to meet you.
Welcome to the forum! Even though I'm a collector of primarily Mexico Colonials, I have been following your efforts closely and looking forward to seeing your impressive set evolve.
8 Reales Madness Collection
@Dell Welcome to the boards. Your sets are amazing.
Later, Paul.
Congratulations are nearly in order - with the 1870-s added to the set, once he has an 1851 it will be only the third complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed
Welcome to the boards! I hope that you contribute to the boards often. If you are not a member of the ANA please join.
Very impressive. I always wonder what coins are being added to the complete sets. It usually takes out my computer just trying to load the set. I have found I can figure it out by going to the individual sets.
Keep up the work. I love to watch the set grow as a casual observer.
Dell Loy,
Nice to see you join in! The Eliasberg 70-S is a great coin. I've also owned it and actually sold it to the East Coast collector whom you just purchased it. Congrats
Dell:
I appreciate this statement. It certainly is illuminating and addresses points raised my multiple participants in this thread.
Dell:
A vast number of pre-1880 Clapp-Eliasberg coins have been PCGS graded from 65 to 69, with many grading 66 or 67! Many post-1880 Clapp Eliasberg coins have received such grades, too, though this is less impressive as the Clapps obtained many coins directly from U.S. Mints after 1880, Even so, they knew to demand gems from the mints and the Clapps properly stored them. If just coins dating from 1793 to 1917 are considered, and very common coins minted during that period are excluded, the Clapp-Eliasberg achievement, in terms of quality, is mind-blowing. I will believe in the existence of a better such group when I see the actual coins.
Did Louis Eliasberg Understand and Pursue Gem Quality Coins?
Also, coin doctoring practices have become more advanced and more prevalent since Eliasberg was very active.
Dell:
At some point, the Pogues had planed to consign the Eliasberg-Pogue 1854-S without reserve. Minds were changed. In 2016, an aggressive reserve was placed. Even so, I would not assume that this coin will be 'off-the-market' for decades. Also, the Walton-DuPont 1854-S $5 gold is still out there. If it has not yet been recovered, it might be in the future, and sold.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 17: Importance of the 4th Sale to Collectors who Cannot Afford the Coins
Dell:
This statement suggests that completeness is the primary objective, and some of the other aspects that were mentioned in this thread are much lower priorities. If so, these are extremely important remarks in the history of coin collecting. Thanks, Dell, if "Dell" really is Dell Hansen. Do CU-PCGS-forum moderators verify announcements by participants who are identifying themselves as famous collectors?
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 22: Epic Sales in the Same League
JustaCommeman:
Yes, assuming Dell really is Dell, I share such thoughts.
Dell:
So far, this is the statement by Dell that I appreciate the most. A PCGS graded AU-53 1870-S dollar was chosen over a PCGS graded AU-58 1870-S dollar. Rather than chase the highest-certified coins, other factors are being taken into consideration. In this particular case, however, I tend to prefer the PCGS graded AU-58 1870-s, the Norweb coin, over the PCGS graded AU-53 Eliasberg 1870-S.
Although the Norweb 1870-s has a few nasty scratches, it is relatively much more original than the Eliasberg piece. The rich toning must be more than a century old; perhaps it was never dipped or cleaned. I will dig out my notes when I get a chance.
Dell:
The Norweb, PCGS graded AU-58 1870-S has a CAC sticker, despite the scratches. John must have been very impressed by it.
Having held both in hand, I also prefer the 58
Welcome to the forum, Glad to see you joined in.
Welcome, I hope you contribute here often and please post picture of some of your newly acquired pieces, as you add them or when you get upgrades, cant wait to see some.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
Welcome to the forum! Now please don't start collecting ancients :-) I can only handle so many deep-pocketed competitors!
CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION
In a previous post on this thread, I stated I sold the Eliasberg 70S to the East Coast Collector who just sold it to DLH. This is incorrect. I sold the Eliasberg 70S dollar at the Milwaukee Summer ANA show 10 years ago wholesale, where it traded hands and ended up selling to JA who then sold it to his customer. I apologize both to JA and the East Coast Collector.
I was pretty sure it was you who I sold it to in 2007
As I get older my memory is not quite as sharp. I believe John Feigenbaum and I bought it from TDN/Legend right after you bought your MS coin (earlier than 2007). I then sold it to one of my customers and subsequently brought it out at the Milwaukee ANA where I resold it. Don't roast me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the chain of events.
You already have a fantastic collection. I have followed it as you have built it and I think you are doing a fantastic job with it. Continued success with your sets and your other ventures. Oh, and...
@dell, I think some will be less critical with the observence of your few remarks so far.
This was a thread that Ive been keeping a very close eye on. It's very exciting! It can only get more interesting and educational from here.
Dell - congrats on your accomplishments thus far. It is great to see an Eliasberg-style collector, as coin collecting has become more specialized for most.
@Justacommeman said: "BigMoose is one of my favorite people I've met via coins. He also has exquisite breath. Powerful combination. I had a dinner once with the Colonel, BigMoose and TomB. One of the highlights of my numismatic career. I shut up and took notes. They have forgot more then I knew. I think TDN was at the table across from us."
Just finished catching up with this thread. Since the discussion has not always stayed on track - let's take another quick detour and play a crude, low-class game: "Guess the amount of their total check" for this dinner. I'll go first. $825.
@AllCoinsRule had one of his coins change grades from MS-66 FS to MS-67 FS at the same grading service in a relativity short period of time. I have found that the difference in these two grades can be very small, especially when color is included.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said: "I have watched Mr. Hansen win a 1913 Lincoln cent graded PCGS ms 67+ red and pop 1 in auction for $ 35,000.
I don't wish Mr. Hanson any bad luck. I think what he is doing all by himself can only help the retail coin market. Nevertheless, as a relatively new "serious" collector, I think he will learn a hard lesson about the reactivity of red copper, spotting, and coin populations sometime in the future. I hope I'm wrong.
Egg on face! LOL. Welcome to the forum Mr. Hanson. As you can see, I didn't get to the end of the thread before posting. Nevertheless, I do not take back anything I said. I stopped collecting Red copper in 1968 due to deterioration to the coins. With your means, I'm sure you have a temperature and humidity controlled environment for the collection you are building. Unfortunately, coins in slabs will turn. As I posted, I wish you well.
Next, some advice you don't probably need. If you slow down just a little, you will not be purchasing common coins graded M-65 or 66 and then later buying an MS-68 top pop to replace them. It just "eats" money. However, I know I could not follow my own advice if I had your money. Additionally, if you are like most of us, your tastes may change the more you learn. I sounds like you have many of the top people in the business helping you.
Finally, I have enjoyed reading your well expressed comments and what numismatics means to you. I have no idea where you'll get the time to continue posting such as you have already but I hope you do. This forum is populated with some of the foremost numismatic dealers, teachers, and collectors. I know you'll enjoy learning from them as much as I do.
I guess my "finally" came too soon. You have probably already planed to do this as Bob is an instructor at the ANA Summer Seminar but if you have not, you owe it to yourself to attend at least one session. I'll bet you'll return over-and-over.
Regards
Dell you are an inspiration to me. I'll never spend even 98% of what have but I love collecting coins. It is great to hear you have such confidence in coins.
Congratulations Dell. I'm a big fan of both TDN and your seated dollar set! I am a relatively new seated dollar collector myself but striving to to be the fourth complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed. They are such great coins!
Welcome Dell. I saw that you purchased some of my coins from my Kentucky Collection of quarter eagles. Glad they found a great new home!
Welcome Mr. Hanson.
Insider ... stop. And please leave Sarasota if still there.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
We have a thread running called "Post something funny to get your LOL count up." You may wish to move your post over to that thread as you should collect a few! I'll give you one for sure.
TDN:
Although I admit never having researched this particular point myself, TDN's conclusion here surprises me a little. There is a high probability that Virgil Branch had a complete set. Waldo Newcomer and Col. E. H. R. Green may very well have had such sets, too. It was typical for Brand to collect five or more representatives of individual dates. He could have had both business strike and Proof 1851 and 1852 dollars.
Col. Green liked having duplicates as well. He had all five 1913 Liberty Nickels. Much less than half of Col. Green's classic U.S. coins were offered in the auctions of Newman's coins over the last half-dozen years. Green's collection was greater in quantity and depth than that of Newman, though Green did not understand numismatics to the extent that Newman did or still does.
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 1
Eliasberg's duplicates were offered in a Stack's auction in the late 1940s and in a New Netherlands auction during the 1950s. Although I do not have time to research Eliasberg's history of acquiring Liberty Seated dollars at this moment, there are cases where Eliasberg kept a Proof and sold a business strike of the same type and date.
In the past, collectors considered Proofs to be superior to business strikes for coins of approximately the same quality, and mixed Proofs and business strikes in the same sets. We do not know how many collectors sold business strike Liberty Seated dollars of various Philadelphia Mint dates after acquiring Proofs of those same respective dates. There must have been more than two collectors who completed business strike sets of Liberty Seated Dollars. Did H. O. Granberg collect these?
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 22: Epic Sales in the Same League
Nysoto:
As there are mysteries regarding Eliasberg's level of knowledge nd the nature of his objectives other than completeness, the term "an Eliasberg-style collector" is very ambiguous. If Nysoto means someone who is collecting all Classic U.S. coins rather than particular series, time periods, denominations or metals, then Nysoto is making an excellent point. Other than Hansen and "High Desert," is anyone else now collecting high quality coins by date of many series of Classic U.S. coins, spanning all time periods, and including copper, nickel, silver and gold?
Did Louis Eliasberg Understand and Pursue Gem Quality Coins?
Insightful10@gmail.com
My conclusion is sound - most well to do collectors of the late 19th and early 20th century sought out proofs of the Philly coins.
TDN:
I said this in my post just above, and I indicated a primary reason why. I also said that Virgil Brand often had more than five representatives of a particular date, sometimes even more than ten! It is very plausible that Brand had both business strikes and Proofs of 1851 and 1852 dollars. I just mentioned the names of other collectors who very plausibly could have had complete sets of business strike Liberty Seated dollars.
TDN:
Before drawing a conclusion, we should investigate the holdings of Liberty Seated Dollars in the Virgil Brand, Col. Green, H. O. Granberg and Waldo Newcomer collections. As indicated above, it would make sense to focus on the Liberty Seated Dollars that Eliasberg consigned to auctions of his duplicates in the late 1940s by Stack's and in the 1950s by New Netherlands. Could Eliasberg have had a complete set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars before consigning duplicates to auctions?
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 22: Epic Sales in the Same League
Insightful10@gmail.com
analyst: your challenging the opinion of someone who forgot more then you will ever know about Seated Dollars? really?
I guess your just trying to impress the newbie poster.
His point is valid but I think he should do an article on it and try to disprove my assertion.
Welcome! I am glad to hear that you are pursuing the best coins that meet your personal taste regardless of the grading service insert. Too many unfortunately become fixated only on the latter. I cannot wait to see your set once it is finished, and I wish you the best in assembling a historic set.
@tradedollarnut posted,"Congratulations are nearly in order - with the 1870-s added to the set, once he has an 1851 it will be only the third complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed."
I've collected and researched both the early U.S. Silver Dollars 1794 to 1803 and Seated Dollars 1840-1873 for for over 25 years now. My primary focus has been the "famous collectors and collections of the early dollars by type and die marriage."
A long the way I discovered many of the serious early dollar collectors collected all silver dollars, meaning early dollars by die marriage, Gobrecht Dollars, Seated Dollars in both circulation and Proof, Trade Dollars, Morgan and Peace Dollars, Pattern Dollars, and Lesher Dollars!
I published an article on some of these collectors and collections in the Gobrecht Journal Volume 39 / No. 117, July 2013, pages 17-26. The article is titled, "Little Known but Important Seated Dollar Collectors and Collections." Here is a link to this Journal and article courtesy of the Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) and the Newman Numismatic Portal:
https://archive.org/stream/gobrechtjournalfn117libe#page/16/mode/2up
Although my research is on-going, I have so far found four complete collections of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark completed in the 20th Century. The key words in the above statement by @tradedollarnut is "circulation strike seated dollar set." The four complete sets I have found all are a combination of Proof and Business Strikes. These four sets included an example of the 1858 Philadelphia Seated Dollar (Proof only) which technically is necessary to have a complete set by date and mint mark. Circulation strikes are not known for 1858 Dollars.
I believe TDN is likely correct in that his Seated Dollar set may be the first complete set of circulation strike Seated Dollars.
As you will see in the article, F.C.C. Boyd was the first collector I found that completed a set of all dates and mint marks for the Seated Dollars. Boyd's set was sold at public auction by the Numismatic Gallery in Part I of the World's Greatest Collection of United States Silver Coins His set was a combination of circulation strikes and Proofs - for many of the Philadelphia Seated Dollars he had both circulation and Proofs for each date!
Milferd H. Bolender, W. G. Baldenhofer, and the Ostheimers all completed sets of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark as you will see in the article. Like with Boyd's collection, these four complete sets were combinations of business strikes and Proofs, and all included the 1858 Proof only Dollar. There may be others who had complete sets, as some have suggested. These sets, if they exist, likely would likely be a combination of circulation strikes and Proofs.
One key to learning if anyone else competed a set of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark will be to take the names of every collector listed in the pedigrees of the 1870-S Dollars and see if they had a collection with all of the other Seated Dollar dates and mint marks. I someday hope to pursue this project.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
Great article! I'm not trying to be tricky with my assertion- I just realize that collecting methods have changed - now proofs are collected separately from business strikes. I anticipate that the 1858 and 1895 proof dollars will lose stature because of this trend.
What I can state with nearly 100% certainty is that my set was the first ever completed in 100% uncirculated condition