Thanks TDN. I'm glad you really liked my article in the Gobrecht Journal (link in previous posting above).
I agree that your set is the first complete set with circulation strikes of every date and mint mark, and there is no doubt it is the first set completed with all coins in Mint State! I'll add that I really enjoyed seeing your awesome set "in person" when it was recently displayed.
And as you know, many of the Seated Dollar dates are much, much tougher to find in Mint State vs. Proof. Thus the degree of difficulty is higher to complete a set of circulation strikes.
That darn 1858 Dollar sure messes up things though!
never really gave though as to how many complete collections are out there. the guy from ohio who owns the worst 70S (AG) might have a 100% complete collection. his set should not be overlooked.
@specialist Welcome to the forum. I know who Mr. Self-promoting is and his contributions to numismatics. For you to join very recently and post your opinion of him in such a way tells me you must also be a "very important" numismatist (?) in spite of your lowly CU rating. We all started here the same. I'll look forward to more of your comments in the future.
@specialist posted, "never really gave though as to how many complete collections are out there. the guy from ohio who owns the worst 70S (AG) might have a 100% complete collection. his set should not be overlooked."
You are correct in that Stephen Petty has a complete set of business strikes also, likely the second collector (after TDN) to accomplish this feat. SP's set averages MS62 (but all coins are not in Mint State) per a note that he sent me shortly after the Central States Numismatic Society (CSNS) Convention in March 2017. SP and I talked about this very subject at CSNS - how many collectors ever completed a set of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark.
@tradedollarnut said:
Speety was soooo excited to acquire that 70-S and complete the set. I shared his joy. I miss him
I think about Mark often. I miss him as well
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
ANY complete uncirculated Seated Dollar Set must have included your 70S Dollar. I don't believe past owners of that particular coin had the rest of the set by date and mintmark in uncirculated condition. I don't believe this was the case...Analyst??
@WDP: I believe TDN is likely correct in that his Seated Dollar set may be the first complete set of [business] strike Seated Dollars
While I made clear that there is not enough evidence known to me (or perhaps to anyone) to draw a firm conclusion, this remark by WDP entirely ignores my posts to this thread and the circumstantial evidence that at least one of several other collectors might very well have had a set of business strikes.
The completeness of the Granberg, Green and Newcomer Collections overall are mentioned in my article on the finest known CC gold coin, though Liberty Seated Dollars are not covered in this article. With Saul Teichman's assistance, I theorized that Eliasberg was probably not the first collector to complete a set of Carson City coins.
WDP's article is interesting. It does not clearly address the topic of a complete set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars. WDP announces in the title that he is referring to "Little Known" sets of Liberty Seated Dollars.
As I have already made clear in my posts to this thread, it is very plausible (thought not necessarily true) that at least one of the following well known collections contained a set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars: Virgil Brand, H. O. Granberg, Waldo Newcomer, and maybe even Eliasberg (if Eliasberg sold pertinent business strikes in the 1950s). These collections are the best candidates, not because these collectors wanted complete sets of business strikes, as they had no such desire. They thought it best to mix Proofs and business strikes in the same sets. Most collectors in the past thought that Proofs were superior to business strikes, even Proof restrikes! These collections are the best candidates because all the just-mentioned collectors had a large number of duplicates, even multiple examples of rarities.
Brand and Green sometimes even had a dozen of one rarity; Col. Green may have had two complete sets of Liberty Seated dollars. He had at least two 1870-S silver dollars.
W. David Perkins (on p. 20 of the article he cited in this thread): The WGC [Boyd] Seated dollar lots were offered beginning with Lot 126, ... , followed by a complete run of Philadelphia Mint Seated dollars from 1840 to 1873 in MS and PR, with many years represented by a specimen in both MS and PR.
WDP's report might be hinting that Boyd was missing a couple of Philly business strikes, though it is unclear on this point. Moreover, Boyd had far more coins than those included in the WGC sales. If Boyd had Proof and circulated 1851 and 1852 dollars, at least two of each, he may not have consigned the circulated pieces to this auction, where the emphasis was on quality. The concept of business strikes instead of Proofs was not then a factor.
W. David Perkins (on p. 22 of the article he cited in this thread): Bolender's Seated dollar set, as offered in this sale, was virtually complete, missing only specimens of the extremely rare 1870-S dollar and the 1873-CC dollar. Through my research, it turns out Bolender had owned a specimen of both the 1870-S and the 1873-CC dollars. These two specimens were offered and pedigreed to Bolender in Lester Merkin's Public Auction Sale - September 18, 1968 as Lots 372 and 379. They were sold by Bolender privately prior to his 1952 sale.
So, WDP tells us that Bolender's 1870-S and 1873-CC were not included in the auction of Bolender's collection of Liberty Seated Dollars. If other business strikes were missing in that auction, it seems very plausible that Bolender had examples of the missing dates in business strike format, but sold them earlier as well.
As a longtime silver dollar specialist, an author and a major dealer for years, was Bolender someone who would have completed a set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars? This is the kind of question we should attempt to answer if we are to focus on the history of complete sets of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars.
Insightful10@gmail.com
"In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
@Analyst said: @WDP: I believe TDN is likely correct in that his Seated Dollar set may be the first complete set of [business] strike Seated Dollars
While I made clear that there is not enough evidence known to me (or perhaps to anyone) to draw a firm conclusion, this remark by WDP entirely ignores my posts to this thread and the circumstantial evidence that at least one of several other collectors might very well have had a set of business strikes.
As I have already made clear in my posts to this thread, it is very plausible (thought not necessarily true) that at least one of the following well known collections contained .
As a longtime silver dollar specialist, an author and a major dealer for years, was Bolender someone who would have completed a set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars? This is the kind of question we should attempt to answer if we are to focus on the history of complete sets of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars.
Insightful10@gmail.com
That's because you've hijacked this mini-thread. Every other authority on the topic has dismissed this as less-than-meaningful inductive speculation.
It's very plausible? Highly improbable based on all available scholarship..
Once again, a hijack. The institutional we in your call-to-arms is ..... never mind.....
As someone once said to Dan Quayle:
"I knew Professor Irwin Corey. You, sir, are no Professor Irwin Corey!"
@Analyst said: @WDP: I believe TDN is likely correct in that his Seated Dollar set may be the first complete set of [business] strike Seated Dollars
While I made clear that there is not enough evidence known to me (or perhaps to anyone) to draw a firm conclusion, this remark by WDP entirely ignores my posts to this thread and the circumstantial evidence that at least one of several other collectors might very well have had a set of business strikes.
As I have already made clear in my posts to this thread, it is very plausible (thought not necessarily true) that at least one of the following well known collections contained .
As a longtime silver dollar specialist, an author and a major dealer for years, was Bolender someone who would have completed a set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars? This is the kind of question we should attempt to answer if we are to focus on the history of complete sets of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars.
Insightful10@gmail.com
That's because you've hijacked this mini-thread. Every other authority on the topic has dismissed this as less-than-meaningful inductive speculation.
It's very plausible? Highly improbable based on all available scholarship..
Once again, a hijack. The institutional "we" in your call-to-arms is ..... never mind.....
As someone once said to Dan Quayle:
"I knew Professor Irwin Corey, sir. You are no Professor Irwin Corey!"
It's what he does in 100 words or more.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Col. Jessup: That's because you've hijacked this mini-thread. No!
Here is a recap for readers who are just joining us. Some additional remarks by TDN and CNN regarding this subtopic are not included here though can be read in earlier pages of this thread. Another point of this recap is to show that this thread evolved normally; it was not hijacked by anyone
Dell: "I just acquired the 1870 S seated liberty dollar in AU 53. I studied carefully the AU 58 which I consider to be darker in tone and less attractive to me personally than the AU 53 which is the third finest however it is the coin that I would like in my collection personally."
TDN: I started with that very 1870-S in my set. ... In case you want the 1997-2007 provenance: Eliasberg- Share - Legend
CNNcoins: Dell Loy, Nice to see you join in! The Eliasberg 70-S is a great coin. I've also owned it and actually sold it to the East Coast collector whom you just purchased it.
Analyst above: So far, this is the statement by Dell that I appreciate the most. A PCGS graded AU-53 1870-S dollar was chosen over a PCGS graded AU-58 1870-S dollar. Rather than chase the highest-certified coins, other factors are being taken into consideration. In this particular case, however, I tend to prefer the PCGS graded AU-58 1870-s, the Norweb coin, over the PCGS graded AU-53 Eliasberg 1870-S.
Analyst above: Although the Norweb 1870-s has a few noticeable scratches, it is relatively much more original than the Eliasberg piece. The rich toning must be more than a century old; perhaps it was never dipped or cleaned. I will dig out my notes when I get a chance.
Dell: "Others may judge it a weaker choice John Albanese and I believe it was the best choice. His analysis helped me make the choice.
Analyst above: The Norweb, PCGS graded AU-58 1870-S has a CAC sticker, despite the scratches. John must have been very impressed by it.
TDN: Having held both in hand, I also prefer the 58
CNNcoins: As I get older my memory is not quite as sharp. I believe John Feigenbaum and I bought it from TDN/Legend right after you bought your MS coin (earlier than 2007). I then sold it to one of my customers and subsequently brought it out at the Milwaukee ANA where I resold it. Don't roast me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the chain of events.
TDN: Congratulations are nearly in order - with the 1870-s added to the set, once he has an 1851 it will be only the third complete circulation strike seated dollar set ever completed
Although I admit never having researched this particular point myself, TDN's conclusion here surprises me a little. ....
... Much less than half of Col. Green's classic U.S. coins were offered in the auctions of Newman's coins over the last half-dozen years. Green's collection was greater in quantity and depth than that of Newman, though Green did not understand numismatics to the extent that Newman did or still does.
Eliasberg's duplicates were offered in a Stack's auction in the late 1940s and in a New Netherlands auction during the 1950s. Although I do not have time to research Eliasberg's history of acquiring Liberty Seated dollars at this moment, there are cases where Eliasberg kept a Proof and sold a business strike of the same type and date.
In the past, collectors considered Proofs to be superior to business strikes for coins of approximately the same quality, and mixed Proofs and business strikes in the same sets. We do not know how many collectors sold business strike Liberty Seated dollars of various Philadelphia Mint dates after acquiring Proofs of those same respective dates. ...
TDN: My conclusion is sound -
Before drawing a conclusion, we should investigate the holdings of Liberty Seated Dollars in the Virgil Brand, Col. Green, H. O. Granberg and Waldo Newcomer collections. As indicated above, it would make sense to focus on the Liberty Seated Dollars that Eliasberg consigned to auctions of his duplicates in the late 1940s by Stack's and in the 1950s by New Netherlands. Could Eliasberg have had a complete set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars before consigning duplicates to auctions?
At this point, WDP brought attention to his article in response to TDN's points regarding sets of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars. I read WDP's article and drew attention to a couple of paragraphs while I explaining connections and non-connections to the subtopic of this thread. I thank WDP for bringing his very interesting and informative article to our attention.
Col. Jessup: It's very plausible? Highly improbable based on all available scholarship.
This remark ignores the arguments put forth above that support the concept that it is very plausible that other collectors completed business strike sets of Liberty Seated Dollars.
Is there any scholarship regarding the Liberty Seated Dollars in the Virgil Brand, H. O. Granberg and Waldo Newcomer Collections? I am here providing a framework for such scholarship, though I admit I will not be doing it myself this year. Without clear pictures, it is very frustrating to theorize as to which specific coins are being referenced in past inventories or other listings of collections, which are notoriously incomplete anyhow.
One more time, consider that Col. Green had at least two 1870-S silver dollars and he liked to have multiples of coins in general, including all five 1913 Liberty Nickels! If he was willing and able to acquire at least two 1870-S silver dollars, the idea of him having three or more of each of the other dates is not a stretch. He had full-time employees to handle his collectibles.
Am I saying for certain that Col. Green had a complete set of business strike LS Dollars? Not necessarily, it is very plausible
Virgil Brand had more than 250,000 numismatic items and often had more than a dozen examples of particular rarities. While it is not certain that he had an 1870-S dollar, there is a good chance that he did, and he could easily have had a half-dozen of each of the other dates.
"In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
Col. Jessup: Next, a review of the significance of the ...
The Colonel has decades of experience in the coin business and has bid on many extremely rare coins at major auctions. Yet, most of his posts to this forum have any numismatic content. It would make more sense for him to share his knowledge.
None of us can remember all of our experiences. Even so, the Colonel could start threads about experiences, which he does remember, that pertain to major auctions in the past, epic collections, or important rarities. He could write about events, bidding competition, pedigrees, dealer shenanigans, and other factors that relate to the history of coin collecting.
TradeDollarNut: In other words, does it matter if Brand or Eliasberg could have once had a complete set if no one knows?
I admit that I failed to make some of the points in this thread that I honestly attempted to communicate. Further, I wish that my posts were shorter and more concise. If I hurt anyone's feelings, I assure everyone that this was accidental. Please permit me to try to make amends now.
Almost all the participants on this forum already know that TradeDollarNut has the best set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars. Indeed, in terms of quality, there is a 99% chance that TDN's set is the all-time best. No one has put as much time and effort into seeking the highest quality Liberty Seated Dollars, while learning about grading and pedigrees. We are fortunate that TDN shares his insights on this forum.
The coin community is not about certifications, crack-outs, and trading on the bourse floor; it is about coin collecting and the implicit rules that relate to collecting. The traditions of coin collecting evolve over time; we cannot understand collecting in the present without having some knowledge of collecting in the past
Therefore, I kept mentioning H. O. Granberg, Waldo Newcomer, Col. Green and Virgil Brand for three reasons, only one of which relates to Liberty Seated Dollars. The second reason is that this thread is about Eliasberg & Hansen and the four collectors I just mentioned are in the same league. They are very relevant
Third, I was indirectly encouraging readers of this thread to learn more about these collections (Eliasberg, Hansen, Granberg, Brand, Newcomer, Green) and maybe find information that is not currently known. There is a limit to the amount of time that I can devote to historical research. Although Saul Teichman's research in this regard is amazing and unprecedented, there are limits on his time as well. I am trying to get others interested. Some books by QDB are pertinent and important. There is a lot of information about past collectors on the Newman Numismatic Portal, which keeps growing.
"In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
@specialist said:
analyst-you did it-a non promotional self absorbed post! congrats!
next quit acting like you know how to grade.
How about a grading contest, Analyst vs. Specialist, head to head? I'll supply 20 coins, cover the grades, and make sure they don't peek. Results would be posted on the forum, of course.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@specialist said:
analyst-you did it-a non promotional self absorbed post! congrats!
next quit acting like you know how to grade.
How about a grading contest, Analyst vs. Specialist, head to head? I'll supply 20 coins, cover the grades, and make sure they don't peek. Results would be posted on the forum, of course.
watch, stupid me will have a a headache and lose that day.......
I would only accept a challenge on raw coins. any one can come close with a slab. I can tell you, its different when you are sitting in a grading room and are handed 20 raw saints of which one is fake, several are AU but look MS63 and you freak over the one MS64 because it looks too good. The real graders have a hard job of hitting the exact grade.
@specialist said:
watch, stupid me will have a a headache and lose that day.......
I would only accept a challenge on raw coins. any one can come close with a slab. I can tell you, its different when you are sitting in a grading room and are handed 20 raw saints of which one is fake, several are AU but look MS63 and you freak over the one MS64 because it looks too good. The real graders have a hard job of hitting the exact grade.
No problem. I can provide the raw coins and you can bring some Tylenol.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@specialist said:
analyst-you did it-a non promotional self absorbed post! congrats!
next quit acting like you know how to grade.
How about a grading contest, Analyst vs. Specialist, head to head? I'll supply 20 coins, cover the grades, and make sure they don't peek. Results would be posted on the forum, of course.
How could you determine who won? You are assuming that the grades on the plastic are correct.
@specialist said:
Dell you are an inspiration to me. I'll never spend even 98% of what have but I love collecting coins. It is great to hear you have such confidence in coins.
@specialist said:
watch, stupid me will have a a headache and lose that day.......
I would only accept a challenge on raw coins. any one can come close with a slab. I can tell you its different when you are sitting in a grading room and are handed 20 raw saints of which one is fake, several are AU but look MS63 and you freak over the one MS64 because it looks too good. The real graders have a hard job of hitting the exact grade.
Rick Sear,
"Partially-blind former world-class grader with friends in low places"
"Gaze upon my works, O ye mighty, and despair.."
As the erstwhile first Director of Grading when NGC opened its doors, I worked closely with many world-class graders. You'd have a hard time naming someone who graded at either service whom I didn't know and trade with both before and afterwards.
I have no influence in getting my coins graded currently (never did), just the advantage of my knowledge and skills. Somehow, I don't remember your "real world name" coming up coming up among the 250-500 people who are currently "in the loop". But I have cell #'s for Willis, Salzberg and Albanese.
Step up to the plate.....
Name and overall numismatic "chops" as well as specific grading room experience are your path to credibility.
If you haven't walked your talk, you have a moral obligation to stop trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass.
BTW: Experience graders spot 99.99% of fake Saints instantaneously. The only line that counts on 95+++% of all Saints - all the common ones - is the CAC 65+ line, which no one in the grading rooms cares about or likely knows. The rest are of those are schlocky fancy bullion.
"Please allow me to introduce myself..."
Your turn.....
I await your turning my emoji of smug self-satisfaction into multiple emojis of embarrassed chagrin
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Sancho, 400 years later they're still reading the book!
But note my "agree" above
I was not addressing the windmill, just embellishing a public service announcement with snark.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@MrEureka said: "How about a grading contest, Analyst vs. Specialist, head to head? I'll supply 20 coins, cover the grades, and make sure they don't peek. Results would be posted on the forum, of course."
"YES! YES! But only if we all can play. Sooner or later I'm hoping to get at least 30% of my guesses correct.
Additionally we can all post an opinion of which of the two experts will win + how many forum members will get more correct answers than the two experts.
@Coinstartled said: "How could you determine who won? You are assuming that the grades on the plastic are correct."
Only use slabs with gold beans silly .
@specialist said:
Dell you are an inspiration to me. I'll never spend even 98% of what have but I love collecting coins. It is great to hear you have such confidence in coins.
Perhaps you could send a little $$ or coins to me for my numismatic educational pursuits.
PS Thanks, I wondered what this face was: embarrassed chagrin
@Insider2 said: @Coinstartled said: "How could you determine who won? You are assuming that the grades on the plastic are correct."
Only use slabs with gold beans silly .
No no no. Gold beans confirm only that the coin is under graded. Green means correctly graded. With Yom Kippur on the horizon, we could ask an even higher authority.
@tradedollarnut said:
Rolleyes would come in very handy around here lately
How about "headslap"?
"Dancing smiley"?
My post quality has gone way down since a full range of emoticons was lost.
Or at least that's when I began to notice @MrEureka has noted that I appear to have forgotten more than I ever knew
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Truly appreciate the insight and history from the big time collectors that posted here...not as big of a fan of the sideshows... Hope dell and others will post there thoughts and insights again in future threads....it is very interesting and appreciated...thanks
Wonder when he is going to update his other "complete" sets. They include these same coins, but the 1792-date has not been updated since August. It is clear he has updates for it.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Dell Loy here again. Finally on aPCGS rating system that maybe inaccurate due to"coinflation" in the present era I have equaled Eliasburg in the Complete Set and Complete with Major Varieties category strictly on points. That is obviously not worthy of a claim of completing a set equal to Eliasburg. That requires collecting each Mint mark and Date . I am still 87 coins shy of that goal I have five or six coins in my radar over the next month to move further on the completion goal. I expect to be about 60 shy by years end. This is now a lot of work to find quality coin and not slot fillers. I appreciate any leads on the remaining coins as most are I believe buried in sets and not generally available. The quest keeps me focused and in numerous discussions about coin populations and possible aquistions. The easy collecting is over. The tough coins will not be easily found
I purchased the 1873-CC arrows Dime today after Will Wilkes of Creasant Coins and John Brush helped me evaluate it. Thank to both
Time for bed. My USL SOCCER TEAM is playing for the league Championship on Saturday
GO MONARCHS That should keep my addicted mind off coins until next week
Life is great and I enjoy being a contributing member of the numismatics community!!
Dell Loy
@boiler78 Is my guess.....
That's weird - When I type @boiler78, I can here tiny voices from my coin room collectively shouting,
"We're not worthy! We're not worthy!
I woke up this morning to your nice comments thank you. In life it's easier to judge than to support and understand. My goal in life is to understand first and seldom judge. This seems to be a great fourum with supportive people . our goal should be to build remarkable collections that we are individually proud of based on our capacities and taste. .....> I wish each and everyone of you a great day enjoy building memorable things that you can be proud of I know I will
Dell Loy Hansen
I just spent quite some time getting caught up on this thread. I find these discussions to be so very interesting and am always amazed at the knowledge and information that so many of the participants contribute.
What I take away from the time spent here today is something that Mr. Hansen stated so eloquently.
Comments
Thanks TDN. I'm glad you really liked my article in the Gobrecht Journal (link in previous posting above).
I agree that your set is the first complete set with circulation strikes of every date and mint mark, and there is no doubt it is the first set completed with all coins in Mint State! I'll add that I really enjoyed seeing your awesome set "in person" when it was recently displayed.
And as you know, many of the Seated Dollar dates are much, much tougher to find in Mint State vs. Proof. Thus the degree of difficulty is higher to complete a set of circulation strikes.
That darn 1858 Dollar sure messes up things though!
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
TDN, why argue with Mr Self promoting know it all? May he does knows more then you! LOL!
Curious as to how many MS or PR Seated Dollars has Analyst has ever owned or sold to collectors? Now WDP has a clue....
never really gave though as to how many complete collections are out there. the guy from ohio who owns the worst 70S (AG) might have a 100% complete collection. his set should not be overlooked.
@specialist Welcome to the forum. I know who Mr. Self-promoting is and his contributions to numismatics. For you to join very recently and post your opinion of him in such a way tells me you must also be a "very important" numismatist (?) in spite of your lowly CU rating. We all started here the same. I'll look forward to more of your comments in the future.
@specialist posted, "never really gave though as to how many complete collections are out there. the guy from ohio who owns the worst 70S (AG) might have a 100% complete collection. his set should not be overlooked."
@specialist, thanks for the "has a clue."
You are correct in that Stephen Petty has a complete set of business strikes also, likely the second collector (after TDN) to accomplish this feat. SP's set averages MS62 (but all coins are not in Mint State) per a note that he sent me shortly after the Central States Numismatic Society (CSNS) Convention in March 2017. SP and I talked about this very subject at CSNS - how many collectors ever completed a set of Seated Dollars by date and mint mark.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
Yes, he is the second set that I referenced. Tho he's not in Ohio any more...
TDN, you're right. SP moved to Florida. My mistake (I edited Ohio out above....). Thanks for the catch.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
Speety was soooo excited to acquire that 70-S and complete the set. I shared his joy. I miss him
I think about Mark often. I miss him as well
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
ANY complete uncirculated Seated Dollar Set must have included your 70S Dollar. I don't believe past owners of that particular coin had the rest of the set by date and mintmark in uncirculated condition. I don't believe this was the case...Analyst??
@WDP:
While I made clear that there is not enough evidence known to me (or perhaps to anyone) to draw a firm conclusion, this remark by WDP entirely ignores my posts to this thread and the circumstantial evidence that at least one of several other collectors might very well have had a set of business strikes.
The completeness of the Granberg, Green and Newcomer Collections overall are mentioned in my article on the finest known CC gold coin, though Liberty Seated Dollars are not covered in this article. With Saul Teichman's assistance, I theorized that Eliasberg was probably not the first collector to complete a set of Carson City coins.
Finest Known Carson City Gold Coin
WDP's article is interesting. It does not clearly address the topic of a complete set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars. WDP announces in the title that he is referring to "Little Known" sets of Liberty Seated Dollars.
As I have already made clear in my posts to this thread, it is very plausible (thought not necessarily true) that at least one of the following well known collections contained a set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars: Virgil Brand, H. O. Granberg, Waldo Newcomer, and maybe even Eliasberg (if Eliasberg sold pertinent business strikes in the 1950s). These collections are the best candidates, not because these collectors wanted complete sets of business strikes, as they had no such desire. They thought it best to mix Proofs and business strikes in the same sets. Most collectors in the past thought that Proofs were superior to business strikes, even Proof restrikes! These collections are the best candidates because all the just-mentioned collectors had a large number of duplicates, even multiple examples of rarities.
Brand and Green sometimes even had a dozen of one rarity; Col. Green may have had two complete sets of Liberty Seated dollars. He had at least two 1870-S silver dollars.
W. David Perkins (on p. 20 of the article he cited in this thread):
WDP's report might be hinting that Boyd was missing a couple of Philly business strikes, though it is unclear on this point. Moreover, Boyd had far more coins than those included in the WGC sales. If Boyd had Proof and circulated 1851 and 1852 dollars, at least two of each, he may not have consigned the circulated pieces to this auction, where the emphasis was on quality. The concept of business strikes instead of Proofs was not then a factor.
W. David Perkins (on p. 22 of the article he cited in this thread):
So, WDP tells us that Bolender's 1870-S and 1873-CC were not included in the auction of Bolender's collection of Liberty Seated Dollars. If other business strikes were missing in that auction, it seems very plausible that Bolender had examples of the missing dates in business strike format, but sold them earlier as well.
As a longtime silver dollar specialist, an author and a major dealer for years, was Bolender someone who would have completed a set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars? This is the kind of question we should attempt to answer if we are to focus on the history of complete sets of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars.
Insightful10@gmail.com
That's because you've hijacked this mini-thread. Every other authority on the topic has dismissed this as less-than-meaningful inductive speculation.
It's very plausible? Highly improbable based on all available scholarship..
Once again, a hijack. The institutional we in your call-to-arms is ..... never mind.....
As someone once said to Dan Quayle:
"I knew Professor Irwin Corey. You, sir, are no Professor Irwin Corey!"
I miss @RealAllAlone
It's what he does in 100 words or more.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Col. Jessup: No!
Here is a recap for readers who are just joining us. Some additional remarks by TDN and CNN regarding this subtopic are not included here though can be read in earlier pages of this thread. Another point of this recap is to show that this thread evolved normally; it was not hijacked by anyone
Dell: "I just acquired the 1870 S seated liberty dollar in AU 53. I studied carefully the AU 58 which I consider to be darker in tone and less attractive to me personally than the AU 53 which is the third finest however it is the coin that I would like in my collection personally."
TDN:
CNNcoins:
Analyst above:
Analyst above:
Dell: "Others may judge it a weaker choice John Albanese and I believe it was the best choice. His analysis helped me make the choice.
Analyst above:
TDN:
CNNcoins:
TDN:
Although I admit never having researched this particular point myself, TDN's conclusion here surprises me a little. ....
... Much less than half of Col. Green's classic U.S. coins were offered in the auctions of Newman's coins over the last half-dozen years. Green's collection was greater in quantity and depth than that of Newman, though Green did not understand numismatics to the extent that Newman did or still does.
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 1
Eliasberg's duplicates were offered in a Stack's auction in the late 1940s and in a New Netherlands auction during the 1950s. Although I do not have time to research Eliasberg's history of acquiring Liberty Seated dollars at this moment, there are cases where Eliasberg kept a Proof and sold a business strike of the same type and date.
In the past, collectors considered Proofs to be superior to business strikes for coins of approximately the same quality, and mixed Proofs and business strikes in the same sets. We do not know how many collectors sold business strike Liberty Seated dollars of various Philadelphia Mint dates after acquiring Proofs of those same respective dates. ...
TDN:
Before drawing a conclusion, we should investigate the holdings of Liberty Seated Dollars in the Virgil Brand, Col. Green, H. O. Granberg and Waldo Newcomer collections. As indicated above, it would make sense to focus on the Liberty Seated Dollars that Eliasberg consigned to auctions of his duplicates in the late 1940s by Stack's and in the 1950s by New Netherlands. Could Eliasberg have had a complete set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars before consigning duplicates to auctions?
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 22: Epic Sales in the Same League
At this point, WDP brought attention to his article in response to TDN's points regarding sets of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars. I read WDP's article and drew attention to a couple of paragraphs while I explaining connections and non-connections to the subtopic of this thread. I thank WDP for bringing his very interesting and informative article to our attention.
Col. Jessup:
This remark ignores the arguments put forth above that support the concept that it is very plausible that other collectors completed business strike sets of Liberty Seated Dollars.
Is there any scholarship regarding the Liberty Seated Dollars in the Virgil Brand, H. O. Granberg and Waldo Newcomer Collections? I am here providing a framework for such scholarship, though I admit I will not be doing it myself this year. Without clear pictures, it is very frustrating to theorize as to which specific coins are being referenced in past inventories or other listings of collections, which are notoriously incomplete anyhow.
One more time, consider that Col. Green had at least two 1870-S silver dollars and he liked to have multiples of coins in general, including all five 1913 Liberty Nickels! If he was willing and able to acquire at least two 1870-S silver dollars, the idea of him having three or more of each of the other dates is not a stretch. He had full-time employees to handle his collectibles.
Am I saying for certain that Col. Green had a complete set of business strike LS Dollars? Not necessarily, it is very plausible
Virgil Brand had more than 250,000 numismatic items and often had more than a dozen examples of particular rarities. While it is not certain that he had an 1870-S dollar, there is a good chance that he did, and he could easily have had a half-dozen of each of the other dates.
Prof. Irwin Corey's gone, but the current WGA title is open.
Next, a review of the significance of the Higgs boson and its impact upon the toning of "CC" gold.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
In other words, does it matter if Brand or Eliasberg could have once had a complete set if no one knows?
Col. Jessup:
The Colonel has decades of experience in the coin business and has bid on many extremely rare coins at major auctions. Yet, most of his posts to this forum have any numismatic content. It would make more sense for him to share his knowledge.
None of us can remember all of our experiences. Even so, the Colonel could start threads about experiences, which he does remember, that pertain to major auctions in the past, epic collections, or important rarities. He could write about events, bidding competition, pedigrees, dealer shenanigans, and other factors that relate to the history of coin collecting.
TradeDollarNut:
I admit that I failed to make some of the points in this thread that I honestly attempted to communicate. Further, I wish that my posts were shorter and more concise. If I hurt anyone's feelings, I assure everyone that this was accidental. Please permit me to try to make amends now.
Almost all the participants on this forum already know that TradeDollarNut has the best set of business strike Liberty Seated Dollars. Indeed, in terms of quality, there is a 99% chance that TDN's set is the all-time best. No one has put as much time and effort into seeking the highest quality Liberty Seated Dollars, while learning about grading and pedigrees. We are fortunate that TDN shares his insights on this forum.
The coin community is not about certifications, crack-outs, and trading on the bourse floor; it is about coin collecting and the implicit rules that relate to collecting. The traditions of coin collecting evolve over time; we cannot understand collecting in the present without having some knowledge of collecting in the past
Therefore, I kept mentioning H. O. Granberg, Waldo Newcomer, Col. Green and Virgil Brand for three reasons, only one of which relates to Liberty Seated Dollars. The second reason is that this thread is about Eliasberg & Hansen and the four collectors I just mentioned are in the same league. They are very relevant
Third, I was indirectly encouraging readers of this thread to learn more about these collections (Eliasberg, Hansen, Granberg, Brand, Newcomer, Green) and maybe find information that is not currently known. There is a limit to the amount of time that I can devote to historical research. Although Saul Teichman's research in this regard is amazing and unprecedented, there are limits on his time as well. I am trying to get others interested. Some books by QDB are pertinent and important. There is a lot of information about past collectors on the Newman Numismatic Portal, which keeps growing.
analyst-you did it-a non promotional self absorbed post! congrats!
next quit acting like you know how to grade.
I have good intentions
I also have a day job
Just incidentally, has anyone checked @Dell's registry sets lately for new purchases?
How about a grading contest, Analyst vs. Specialist, head to head? I'll supply 20 coins, cover the grades, and make sure they don't peek. Results would be posted on the forum, of course.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'll get some side-bets going.
8 Reales Madness Collection
watch, stupid me will have a a headache and lose that day.......
I would only accept a challenge on raw coins. any one can come close with a slab. I can tell you, its different when you are sitting in a grading room and are handed 20 raw saints of which one is fake, several are AU but look MS63 and you freak over the one MS64 because it looks too good. The real graders have a hard job of hitting the exact grade.
No problem. I can provide the raw coins and you can bring some Tylenol.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
How could you determine who won? You are assuming that the grades on the plastic are correct.
Don't you mean 2%?
Rick Sear,
"Partially-blind former world-class grader with friends in low places"
"Gaze upon my works, O ye mighty, and despair.."
As the erstwhile first Director of Grading when NGC opened its doors, I worked closely with many world-class graders. You'd have a hard time naming someone who graded at either service whom I didn't know and trade with both before and afterwards.
I have no influence in getting my coins graded currently (never did), just the advantage of my knowledge and skills. Somehow, I don't remember your "real world name" coming up coming up among the 250-500 people who are currently "in the loop". But I have cell #'s for Willis, Salzberg and Albanese.
Step up to the plate.....
Name and overall numismatic "chops" as well as specific grading room experience are your path to credibility.
If you haven't walked your talk, you have a moral obligation to stop trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass.
BTW: Experience graders spot 99.99% of fake Saints instantaneously. The only line that counts on 95+++% of all Saints - all the common ones - is the CAC 65+ line, which no one in the grading rooms cares about or likely knows. The rest are of those are schlocky fancy bullion.
"Please allow me to introduce myself..."
Your turn.....
I await your turning my emoji of smug self-satisfaction into multiple emojis of embarrassed chagrin
Colonel, you're tilting at windmills
colonel, my gosh, I hope you are not talking to me.....
Sancho, 400 years later they're still reading the book!
But note my "agree" above
I was not addressing the windmill, just embellishing a public service announcement with snark.
@MrEureka said: "How about a grading contest, Analyst vs. Specialist, head to head? I'll supply 20 coins, cover the grades, and make sure they don't peek. Results would be posted on the forum, of course."
"YES! YES! But only if we all can play. Sooner or later I'm hoping to get at least 30% of my guesses correct.
Additionally we can all post an opinion of which of the two experts will win + how many forum members will get more correct answers than the two experts.
@Coinstartled said: "How could you determine who won? You are assuming that the grades on the plastic are correct."
Only use slabs with gold beans silly
.
@specialist said:
Dell you are an inspiration to me. I'll never spend even 98% of what have but I love collecting coins. It is great to hear you have such confidence in coins.
Perhaps you could send a little $$ or coins to me for my numismatic educational pursuits.
PS Thanks, I wondered what this face was: embarrassed chagrin
And as the Indigo Girls used to sing it, every
is an 
in disguise 
I feel very limited on this web sight. I cannot post in color or have these other options:
:angelic:
:arghh:
:bag:
:banhappy:
:banghead:
:bigtears:
:blackeye:
:bookworm:
:bored:
:bucktooth:
:chicken:
:cigar:
:clown:
:cold:
:coldfeet:
:couchpotato:
:dead:
:depressed:
:eggface:
:facepalm:
:greedy:
:grumpy:
:happy:
:hilarious:
:hungover:
:hungry:
:hurting:
:inpain:
:jawdrop:
:joyful:
:lurking:
:meh:
:muted:
:nailbiting:
:pigeon:
:playful:
:pompous:
:punch:
:shame:
:shifty:
:shy:
:smug:
:smuggrin:
:sorry:
:sour:
:spam:
:spitoutdummy:
:stinkyfeet:
:stop:
:troll:
:vomit:
:wacky:
:watching:
:wideyed:
:woot:
:yack:
:yawn:
:yuck:
:mad:
:cool:
:eek:
:oops:
:rolleyes:
Rolleyes would come in very handy around here lately
No no no. Gold beans confirm only that the coin is under graded. Green means correctly graded. With Yom Kippur on the horizon, we could ask an even higher authority.
That's why to use them! The grade on the "gold beaned" slab eliminates that grade and anything below it!
How about "headslap"?
"Dancing smiley"?
My post quality has gone way down since a full range of emoticons was lost.
Or at least that's when I began to notice
@MrEureka has noted that I appear to have forgotten more than I ever knew
Hope he moved away from me!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
You can find emojis on the web and save them to a folder.
Then use the "attach image" button and can put them in your post.
Here are some if you want to save them.
The original files names get lost, but you can name them as you see fit when you save them.
Wow. Given the way the last several threads have ended and now this, there must be something in the water.
I could use a "stink-eye" to intensify "snark" if I could get either.
I think it's settled. No next Eliasberg for you.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Truly appreciate the insight and history from the big time collectors that posted here...not as big of a fan of the sideshows... Hope dell and others will post there thoughts and insights again in future threads....it is very interesting and appreciated...thanks
@Dell Congrats on your #1 ranking set and best wishes on your continuing journey building this set
Link to set (takes a while to load)
https://pcgs.com/SetRegistry/complete-sets/master-sets/u-s-coins-complete-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1792-1964/alltimeset/149665
Wonder when he is going to update his other "complete" sets. They include these same coins, but the 1792-date has not been updated since August. It is clear he has updates for it.
Dell Loy here again. Finally on aPCGS rating system that maybe inaccurate due to"coinflation" in the present era I have equaled Eliasburg in the Complete Set and Complete with Major Varieties category strictly on points. That is obviously not worthy of a claim of completing a set equal to Eliasburg. That requires collecting each Mint mark and Date . I am still 87 coins shy of that goal I have five or six coins in my radar over the next month to move further on the completion goal. I expect to be about 60 shy by years end. This is now a lot of work to find quality coin and not slot fillers. I appreciate any leads on the remaining coins as most are I believe buried in sets and not generally available. The quest keeps me focused and in numerous discussions about coin populations and possible aquistions. The easy collecting is over. The tough coins will not be easily found
I purchased the 1873-CC arrows Dime today after Will Wilkes of Creasant Coins and John Brush helped me evaluate it. Thank to both
Time for bed. My USL SOCCER TEAM is playing for the league Championship on Saturday
GO MONARCHS That should keep my addicted mind off coins until next week
Life is great and I enjoy being a contributing member of the numismatics community!!
Dell Loy
@boiler78 Is my guess.....
That's weird - When I type @boiler78, I can here tiny voices from my coin room collectively shouting,
"We're not worthy! We're not worthy!
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
(joking people, joking!)
I just spent quite some time getting caught up on this thread. I find these discussions to be so very interesting and am always amazed at the knowledge and information that so many of the participants contribute.
What I take away from the time spent here today is something that Mr. Hansen stated so eloquently.