Why did this grade as "environmental damage"? $5 Gold Liberty

jwitten · July 7, 2017 9:18AM

This is PART of my ebay bucks this quarter. I took a chance on it, because the seller only had one feedback. Boy am I glad I did! First pictures are how the coin looks when the light doesn't hit it just right. Dark, but lots of luster. The next pictures are when the light catches it right, and it's stunning! Last pictures are the seller pictures, which are pretty darn good for someone with one feedback! Post your ebay buck purchase if you got any!

divecchia · July 7, 2017 9:39AM

Very nice pickup.

Donato

jtlee321 · July 7, 2017 11:54AM

Nice pickup!! Very stunning.

Pandavab · July 7, 2017 12:02PM

Great pickup! I love toned gold.

Treashunt · July 7, 2017 12:05PM

still nice, but still questionable toning

jwitten · July 7, 2017 12:11PM

The seller stated they got from a client of theirs many years ago, and that client received it from her grandfather, who kept it in a paper envelope. She said she has had it for the last 20 years or so. She is not a coin seller, so I have no reason not to believe her story of the coin. I doubt it is AT.

steveben · July 7, 2017 12:25PM

@Treashunt said:
still nice, but still questionable toning

all toning is questionable...think about it. here are common toning questions:

what caused it? an envelope? a holder? an album?
how was it stored? hot? cold?
did it get something on it?

etc...

if you can describe how it was deliberately toned, then you have an interesting comment.

Treashunt · July 7, 2017 12:54PM

@steveben said:

@Treashunt said:
still nice, but still questionable toning

all toning is questionable...think about it. here are common toning questions:

what caused it? an envelope? a holder? an album?
how was it stored? hot? cold?
did it get something on it?

etc...

if you can describe how it was deliberately toned, then you have an interesting comment.

okay, then I make no comment

Twobitcollector · July 7, 2017 1:39PM

I only had $26 plus some change, so I bought a lot of ASE.

Coinlearner · July 7, 2017 1:50PM

+1 Edited

grip · July 7, 2017 1:53PM

I wouldn't have touched that one.

jwitten · July 7, 2017 5:48PM

@grip said:
I wouldn't have touched that one.

Good, less competition for me when ones like this come available, lol.

ChrisH821 · July 7, 2017 6:24PM

I just bought widgets, might post pics when they arrive.

AUandAG · July 7, 2017 9:00PM

Nothing fun here. Envelopes for shipping....yuk.

bob:(

Boosibri · July 8, 2017 5:00AM

Color on gold should layer and show depth and age.

It is incredibly uncommon to see a magenta / purple on naturally toned gold.

jwitten · July 8, 2017 7:14AM

Here is a video of it

https://instagram.com/p/BWRXMMfBVXF/embed/

Relaxn · July 8, 2017 7:41AM

Glad you are happy with your purchase. Probably would have been one I passed... everytime.

mbogoman · July 8, 2017 9:57AM

A 5 oz silver Swiss of America "Rolo" and...drum roll please...a new Squirrelinator squirrel trap!!! I need a second trap as with all the rain we had this winter, the ground squirrel population exploded around here. Have captured and "disposed" of over 70 of the flea-infested vermin over the past 3 months. BTW - avocados are the best bait - they can't stay away from them!

JJM · July 8, 2017 12:29PM

Looks like toning from a old cleaning
JMO

grip · July 8, 2017 12:45PM

Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
cleaned with Clorox.??

jwitten · July 8, 2017 1:43PM

@JJM said:
Looks like toning from a old cleaning
JMO

I don't think cleaning will cause gold to tone.

@grip said:
Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
cleaned with Clorox.??

That's a new one to me, lol. If you can make your gold look like this with clorox, let me know, I will be a buyer

Unknown · July 11, 2017 3:20PM

This content has been removed.

jwitten · July 12, 2017 2:46PM

Getting mine ready to send to PCGS. Any thoughts on the grade? There is a little ding on the reverse... hopefully that would not be enough to keep it from grading.

grip · July 12, 2017 3:02PM

@jwitten said:

@JJM said:
Looks like toning from a old cleaning
JMO

I don't think cleaning will cause gold to tone.

@grip said:
Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
cleaned with Clorox.??

That's a new one to me, lol. If you can make your gold look like this with clorox, let me know, I will be a buyer

Not necessary Clorox, but some type of detergent.

jwitten · July 12, 2017 3:29PM

@grip said:

@jwitten said:

@JJM said:
Looks like toning from a old cleaning
JMO

I don't think cleaning will cause gold to tone.

@grip said:
Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
cleaned with Clorox.??

That's a new one to me, lol. If you can make your gold look like this with clorox, let me know, I will be a buyer

Not necessary Clorox, but some type of detergent.

Think it will grade? If you have any gold, I would love to see an experiment.

ricko · July 13, 2017 6:25AM

I would pass the gold in the OP.... I like dirty old gold (DOG)... however that is weird... If it has not be detergent dipped, and the story is true...it was stored in some nasty envelope material and the mottled appearance is due to deposition from outgassing. Good luck with your coin... Cheers, RickO

jwitten · July 13, 2017 7:24AM

So do yall think it won't grade?

Desert Moon · July 13, 2017 3:30PM

@Boosibri said:
Color on gold should layer and show depth and age.

It is incredibly uncommon to see a magenta / purple on naturally toned gold.

Leather pouch toning?

Best, SH

Desert Moon · July 13, 2017 3:31PM

@jwitten said:
So do yall think it won't grade?

From the video, looks like cartwheel luster is still there, why not 55 or 58?

Best, SH

jwitten · August 21, 2017 8:01PM

Grade just posted... Environmental damage! What do they mean by that? They didn't say questionable color, so I don't have a clue what they saw/didn't like.

DoubleJCoins · August 21, 2017 8:09PM

That stinks! I wonder if the area by the rims that are a little darker caused it to get that. How do the true views look?

jwitten · August 21, 2017 8:11PM

@DoubleJCoins said:
That stinks! I wonder if the area by the rims that are a little darker caused it to get that. How do the true views look?

They aren't up yet. I will post them when they are.

DoubleJCoins · August 21, 2017 8:12PM

Are you thinking of trying it again? Or maybe at ngc?

jwitten · August 21, 2017 8:21PM

@DoubleJCoins said:
Are you thinking of trying it again? Or maybe at ngc?

Possibly, yes

Bochiman · August 21, 2017 9:21PM

@jwitten said:
Grade just posted... Environmental damage! What do they mean by that? They didn't say questionable color, so I don't have a clue what they saw/didn't like.

They could feel that some of that toning took too much of the skin/surface off and that could be the ED they reference.
From the original picture, it appears that there are areas that the surface appears to be lacking where it may have been eaten away.
I really haven't seen it with gold, but I have seen it on some of the old silvers....where the toning went too dark/deep and actually ate away at the surface.

jwitten · August 21, 2017 9:34PM

Here is the TrueView:

And here is the other coin in the submission, that straight graded:

Bochiman · August 21, 2017 11:40PM

Right. In those photos. the areas I am seeing are almost impossible to see.
But, in you original photos, I see more than a few.....for instance, the area under the chin and then heading out at 9 oclock to the star.
Is it only me that it looks like there is a layer of metal missing in certain areas?

I'm ok if it is only me and I am wrong....I don't have the coin in hand and am just trying to figure out the ED notation from what I see online.

ms70 · August 22, 2017 3:32AM

I thought eBay wasn't allowing the use of eBay Bucks for numismatic purchases? When did that change?

jwitten · August 22, 2017 4:24AM

@ms70 said:
I thought eBay wasn't allowing the use of eBay Bucks for numismatic purchases? When did that change?

You've always been able to buy coins with bucks. You don't EARN bucks with bullion purchases though.

jwitten · August 22, 2017 9:14AM

@Boosibri any ideas on what the environmental damage is? And what do you think of the toning in the trueviews vs my pictures?

Insider2 · August 22, 2017 10:36AM

Remember...this is an opinion as I don't/cannot speak for PCGS. It's delivered with "tough love."

The $5 is a POS! These colors are similar to sea salvage although in the case of your coin the "discolored crust" is not present. We all know that gold is a stable element that we generally do not associate with corrosion (unless the surface is etched by ...) but our coins are an alloy. When they get this ugly (remember-eye-of-the-beholder - me) as most "dirty gold" including the $ 2 1/2 above that some folks love and some make a market in, they are technically "Environmentally Damaged." Just as some chemists consider any toning due to oxidation.

The grading service must value these coins. They did! I agree with them, one ED other OK.

PQueue · August 22, 2017 12:06PM

OP should consider how gold ages when it is not dipped by marketeers. Orange gold and green gold are each beautiful, quite difficult to find undipped, unprocessed original US gold. Rainbow and Iodine color toned gold are not desirable. The photos suggest PCGS & Insider2 are correct.

oldgoldlover · August 22, 2017 12:29PM

Only thing i can see is the luster is gone in high sots ans still in tact in others on the obverse. Have you sent it to the other TPG?

jwitten · August 22, 2017 2:13PM

@oldgoldlover said:
Only thing i can see is the luster is gone in high sots ans still in tact in others on the obverse. Have you sent it to the other TPG?

Not yet, but I probably will.

@PQueue said:
OP should consider how gold ages when it is not dipped by marketeers. Orange gold and green gold are each beautiful, quite difficult to find undipped, unprocessed original US gold. Rainbow and Iodine color toned gold are not desirable. The photos suggest PCGS & Insider2 are correct.

So why would PCGS say "environmental damage" instead of "Questionable color" if you think it's iodine? And none of my other gold toners have had issues... so what is the difference with this one? That's what I'm trying to find out.> @Insider2 said:

@Insider2 said:

The $5 is a POS!

Well, one man's POS is another man's treasure

BillJones · August 22, 2017 3:17PM

It would be a pass for me, but I like gold that looks like gold. Pretty gold coppery toning works for me, but not the browns, blues or purples.

jwitten · August 22, 2017 3:24PM

@BillJones said:
It would be a pass for me, but I like gold that looks like gold. Pretty gold coppery toning works for me, but not the browns, blues or purples.

Regardless of whether you like it.. any idea why this would be "environmental damage" and not just questionable color?

Desert Moon · August 22, 2017 3:32PM

I've seen colors like that on gold coins in slabs that had grades. Generally I was told by 'experts' that such toning could result from being in a leather pouch. Perhaps iodine can do the same thing but the toning 'lays' on the surface differently which can then be distinguished?

Best, SH

Mattsman54 · August 22, 2017 3:33PM

Wow.. love the beautiful tones. I would buy it just for that.

jwitten · August 22, 2017 3:34PM

@spacehayduke said:
I've seen colors like that on gold coins in slabs that had grades. Generally I was told by 'experts' that such toning could result from being in a leather pouch. Perhaps iodine can do the same thing but the toning 'lays' on the surface differently which can then be distinguished?

Best, SH

I have quite a few toned gold that are similar, and all are straight graded. Even if they thought this was iodine, my guess is they would label it Questionable Color, not environmental damage.

Insider2 · August 22, 2017 3:36PM

@jwitten said:

"@Insider2 said the $5 is a POS!"

@jwitten, as you posted: "Well, one man's POS is another man's treasure."

Of course I AGREE! IMO, I thought I made that clear while explaining that both pieces of discolored gold (which I know you and others love/collect/and sell) are ED. From what I've seen, up until fairly recently, a majority of collectors send stuff like this to the conservation services to restore them to a gold color in seconds.

With the renewed interest and education regarding cleaning and unusually "bright" coins, IMO, there is a swing back to making coins look dirty and old by various methods. Unfortunately one has been mentioned in this thread.

PS I'll NEVER tell anyone what to collet (unless I'm asked - LOL). And if I ever got a hold of that $5...

Desert Moon · August 22, 2017 3:37PM

@jwitten said:

@spacehayduke said:
I've seen colors like that on gold coins in slabs that had grades. Generally I was told by 'experts' that such toning could result from being in a leather pouch. Perhaps iodine can do the same thing but the toning 'lays' on the surface differently which can then be distinguished?

Best, SH

I have quite a few toned gold that are similar, and all are straight graded. Even if they thought this was iodine, my guess is they would label it Questionable Color, not environmental damage.

I am wondering if you should try again in a few months after it is out of the graders minds?

Best, SH

Why did this grade as "environmental damage"? $5 Gold Liberty

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