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Why did this grade as "environmental damage"? $5 Gold Liberty

jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 22, 2017 10:02AM in U.S. Coin Forum

This is PART of my ebay bucks this quarter. I took a chance on it, because the seller only had one feedback. Boy am I glad I did! First pictures are how the coin looks when the light doesn't hit it just right. Dark, but lots of luster. The next pictures are when the light catches it right, and it's stunning! Last pictures are the seller pictures, which are pretty darn good for someone with one feedback! Post your ebay buck purchase if you got any!





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Comments

  • divecchiadivecchia Posts: 6,688 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice pickup. :+1::+1:

    Donato

    Hobbyist & Collector (not an investor).
    Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set

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  • jtlee321jtlee321 Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice pickup!! Very stunning. :)

    Justin Lee Numismatic Photography



    image
  • PandavabPandavab Posts: 960 ✭✭✭

    Great pickup! I love toned gold.

    My eBay Store
  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    still nice, but still questionable toning

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The seller stated they got from a client of theirs many years ago, and that client received it from her grandfather, who kept it in a paper envelope. She said she has had it for the last 20 years or so. She is not a coin seller, so I have no reason not to believe her story of the coin. I doubt it is AT.

  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2017 12:25PM

    @Treashunt said:
    still nice, but still questionable toning

    all toning is questionable...think about it. here are common toning questions:

    what caused it? an envelope? a holder? an album?
    how was it stored? hot? cold?
    did it get something on it?

    etc...

    if you can describe how it was deliberately toned, then you have an interesting comment.

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @steveben said:

    @Treashunt said:
    still nice, but still questionable toning

    all toning is questionable...think about it. here are common toning questions:

    what caused it? an envelope? a holder? an album?
    how was it stored? hot? cold?
    did it get something on it?

    etc...

    if you can describe how it was deliberately toned, then you have an interesting comment.

    okay, then I make no comment

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • TwobitcollectorTwobitcollector Posts: 3,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I only had $26 plus some change, so I bought a lot of ASE.

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  • CoinlearnerCoinlearner Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2017 2:31PM

    +1 Edited

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't have touched that one.

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grip said:
    I wouldn't have touched that one.

    Good, less competition for me when ones like this come available, lol.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,622 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just bought widgets, might post pics when they arrive.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nothing fun here. Envelopes for shipping....yuk.

    bob:(

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Color on gold should layer and show depth and age.

    It is incredibly uncommon to see a magenta / purple on naturally toned gold.

    Latin American Collection

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a video of it

    https://instagram.com/p/BWRXMMfBVXF/embed/
  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad you are happy with your purchase. Probably would have been one I passed... everytime.

  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,211 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A 5 oz silver Swiss of America "Rolo" and...drum roll please...a new Squirrelinator squirrel trap!!! I need a second trap as with all the rain we had this winter, the ground squirrel population exploded around here. Have captured and "disposed" of over 70 of the flea-infested vermin over the past 3 months. BTW - avocados are the best bait - they can't stay away from them!

    mbogoman

    Asesabi Lutho

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345
  • JJMJJM Posts: 8,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like toning from a old cleaning
    JMO

    👍BST's erickso1,cone10,MICHAELDIXON,TennesseeDave,p8nt,jmdm1194,RWW,robkool,Ahrensdad,Timbuk3,Downtown1974,bigjpst,mustanggt,Yorkshireman,idratherbgardening,SurfinxHI,derryb,masscrew,Walkerguy21D,MJ1927,sniocsu,Coll3tor,doubleeagle07,luciobar1980,PerryHall,SNMAM,mbcoin,liefgold,keyman64,maprince230,TorinoCobra71,RB1026,Weiss,LukeMarshall,Wingsrule,Silveryfire, pointfivezero,IKE1964,AL410, Tdec1000, AnkurJ,guitarwes,Type2,Bp777,jfoot113,JWP,mattniss,dantheman984,jclovescoins,Collectorcoins,Weather11am,Namvet69,kansasman,Bruce7789,ADG,Larrob37,Waverly
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
    cleaned with Clorox.??

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JJM said:
    Looks like toning from a old cleaning
    JMO

    I don't think cleaning will cause gold to tone.

    @grip said:
    Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
    cleaned with Clorox.??

    That's a new one to me, lol. If you can make your gold look like this with clorox, let me know, I will be a buyer ;)

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Getting mine ready to send to PCGS. Any thoughts on the grade? There is a little ding on the reverse... hopefully that would not be enough to keep it from grading.

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:

    @JJM said:
    Looks like toning from a old cleaning
    JMO

    I don't think cleaning will cause gold to tone.

    @grip said:
    Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
    cleaned with Clorox.??

    That's a new one to me, lol. If you can make your gold look like this with clorox, let me know, I will be a buyer ;)

    Not necessary Clorox, but some type of detergent.

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grip said:

    @jwitten said:

    @JJM said:
    Looks like toning from a old cleaning
    JMO

    I don't think cleaning will cause gold to tone.

    @grip said:
    Never seen color like that on gold before. Almost looks like it was lightly
    cleaned with Clorox.??

    That's a new one to me, lol. If you can make your gold look like this with clorox, let me know, I will be a buyer ;)

    Not necessary Clorox, but some type of detergent.

    Think it will grade? If you have any gold, I would love to see an experiment.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would pass the gold in the OP.... I like dirty old gold (DOG)... however that is weird... If it has not be detergent dipped, and the story is true...it was stored in some nasty envelope material and the mottled appearance is due to deposition from outgassing. Good luck with your coin... Cheers, RickO

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So do yall think it won't grade?

  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    Color on gold should layer and show depth and age.

    It is incredibly uncommon to see a magenta / purple on naturally toned gold.

    Leather pouch toning?

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:
    So do yall think it won't grade?

    From the video, looks like cartwheel luster is still there, why not 55 or 58?

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2017 8:12PM

    Grade just posted... Environmental damage! :( What do they mean by that? They didn't say questionable color, so I don't have a clue what they saw/didn't like.

  • DoubleJCoinsDoubleJCoins Posts: 78 ✭✭✭

    That stinks! I wonder if the area by the rims that are a little darker caused it to get that. How do the true views look?

    Feel Free to Check out my eBay Listings
    stores.ebay.com/DoubleJCoins?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DoubleJCoins said:
    That stinks! I wonder if the area by the rims that are a little darker caused it to get that. How do the true views look?

    They aren't up yet. I will post them when they are.

  • DoubleJCoinsDoubleJCoins Posts: 78 ✭✭✭

    Are you thinking of trying it again? Or maybe at ngc?

    Feel Free to Check out my eBay Listings
    stores.ebay.com/DoubleJCoins?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DoubleJCoins said:
    Are you thinking of trying it again? Or maybe at ngc?

    Possibly, yes

  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,546 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:
    Grade just posted... Environmental damage! :( What do they mean by that? They didn't say questionable color, so I don't have a clue what they saw/didn't like.

    They could feel that some of that toning took too much of the skin/surface off and that could be the ED they reference.
    From the original picture, it appears that there are areas that the surface appears to be lacking where it may have been eaten away.
    I really haven't seen it with gold, but I have seen it on some of the old silvers....where the toning went too dark/deep and actually ate away at the surface.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the TrueView:

    And here is the other coin in the submission, that straight graded:

  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,546 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Right. In those photos. the areas I am seeing are almost impossible to see.
    But, in you original photos, I see more than a few.....for instance, the area under the chin and then heading out at 9 oclock to the star.
    Is it only me that it looks like there is a layer of metal missing in certain areas?

    I'm ok if it is only me and I am wrong....I don't have the coin in hand and am just trying to figure out the ED notation from what I see online.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought eBay wasn't allowing the use of eBay Bucks for numismatic purchases? When did that change?

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms70 said:
    I thought eBay wasn't allowing the use of eBay Bucks for numismatic purchases? When did that change?

    You've always been able to buy coins with bucks. You don't EARN bucks with bullion purchases though.

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri any ideas on what the environmental damage is? And what do you think of the toning in the trueviews vs my pictures?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2017 10:37AM

    Remember...this is an opinion as I don't/cannot speak for PCGS. It's delivered with "tough love." :wink:

    The $5 is a POS! These colors are similar to sea salvage although in the case of your coin the "discolored crust" is not present. We all know that gold is a stable element that we generally do not associate with corrosion (unless the surface is etched by ...) but our coins are an alloy. When they get this ugly (remember-eye-of-the-beholder - me) as most "dirty gold" including the $ 2 1/2 above that some folks love and some make a market in, they are technically "Environmentally Damaged." Just as some chemists consider any toning due to oxidation.

    The grading service must value these coins. They did! I agree with them, one ED other OK.

  • PQueuePQueue Posts: 901 ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2017 12:07PM

    OP should consider how gold ages when it is not dipped by marketeers. Orange gold and green gold are each beautiful, quite difficult to find undipped, unprocessed original US gold. Rainbow and Iodine color toned gold are not desirable. The photos suggest PCGS & Insider2 are correct.

  • oldgoldloveroldgoldlover Posts: 429 ✭✭✭

    Only thing i can see is the luster is gone in high sots ans still in tact in others on the obverse. Have you sent it to the other TPG?

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2017 3:12PM

    @oldgoldlover said:
    Only thing i can see is the luster is gone in high sots ans still in tact in others on the obverse. Have you sent it to the other TPG?

    Not yet, but I probably will.

    @PQueue said:
    OP should consider how gold ages when it is not dipped by marketeers. Orange gold and green gold are each beautiful, quite difficult to find undipped, unprocessed original US gold. Rainbow and Iodine color toned gold are not desirable. The photos suggest PCGS & Insider2 are correct.

    So why would PCGS say "environmental damage" instead of "Questionable color" if you think it's iodine? And none of my other gold toners have had issues... so what is the difference with this one? That's what I'm trying to find out.> @Insider2 said:

    @Insider2 said:

    The $5 is a POS!

    Well, one man's POS is another man's treasure ;)

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It would be a pass for me, but I like gold that looks like gold. Pretty gold coppery toning works for me, but not the browns, blues or purples.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    It would be a pass for me, but I like gold that looks like gold. Pretty gold coppery toning works for me, but not the browns, blues or purples.

    Regardless of whether you like it.. any idea why this would be "environmental damage" and not just questionable color?

  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've seen colors like that on gold coins in slabs that had grades. Generally I was told by 'experts' that such toning could result from being in a leather pouch. Perhaps iodine can do the same thing but the toning 'lays' on the surface differently which can then be distinguished?

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
  • Mattsman54Mattsman54 Posts: 14 ✭

    Wow.. love the beautiful tones. I would buy it just for that.

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:
    I've seen colors like that on gold coins in slabs that had grades. Generally I was told by 'experts' that such toning could result from being in a leather pouch. Perhaps iodine can do the same thing but the toning 'lays' on the surface differently which can then be distinguished?

    Best, SH

    I have quite a few toned gold that are similar, and all are straight graded. Even if they thought this was iodine, my guess is they would label it Questionable Color, not environmental damage.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:

    "@Insider2 said the $5 is a POS!"

    @jwitten, as you posted: "Well, one man's POS is another man's treasure."

    Of course I AGREE! IMO, I thought I made that clear while explaining that both pieces of discolored gold (which I know you and others love/collect/and sell) are ED. From what I've seen, up until fairly recently, a majority of collectors send stuff like this to the conservation services to restore them to a gold color in seconds.

    With the renewed interest and education regarding cleaning and unusually "bright" coins, IMO, there is a swing back to making coins look dirty and old by various methods. Unfortunately one has been mentioned in this thread. :(

    PS I'll NEVER tell anyone what to collet (unless I'm asked - LOL). And if I ever got a hold of that $5... :wink:

  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2017 3:37PM

    @jwitten said:

    @spacehayduke said:
    I've seen colors like that on gold coins in slabs that had grades. Generally I was told by 'experts' that such toning could result from being in a leather pouch. Perhaps iodine can do the same thing but the toning 'lays' on the surface differently which can then be distinguished?

    Best, SH

    I have quite a few toned gold that are similar, and all are straight graded. Even if they thought this was iodine, my guess is they would label it Questionable Color, not environmental damage.

    I am wondering if you should try again in a few months after it is out of the graders minds?

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/

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