One of things that might be making things slow for some dealers is that their inventory is filled with unattractive, over graded coins that few serious collectors want. It seems that most of the good coins that come to market are in the major auctions. Why? Perhaps it has something to do with dealers' buying attitudes.
When I first stuck my toe into the coin dealers' arena in the mid 1970s, I heard the line, "Don't pay the public too much." The message was you had one set of buying prices for trades among other dealers and another lower, often much lower one, when you buying from "the public."
Why should this be? If you are dealer, and you see an item from which you can make a decent mark-up in fairly short order, why shouldn't you buy it regardless of the source? When I was dealer in from the mid 1990s to the mid 2000s, that was my policy.
Trying to pick off an experienced collector is a fool's game. Chances are if he sees that you are out to get him, he's going to take his good coins elsewhere. Quite often that "elsewhere" is a major auction.
And what do you end up with when you play cheapskate with the good collections? Dreck, that's what you get. You get the junk that can barely draw a bid in a major auction.
If dealers would pay a fair dollar for what is offered to them, they might get more good stuff coming through the door and have better material to offer.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I tend to agree with what Bill Jones wrote. Most B & M dealers, in particular, make money off numismatic sales (vs. bullion-related material) by buying on the cheap and then flipping items to other dealers. From the time that a coin is sold to a small dealer, it could easily go through several more pairs of hands before it is sold at retail to another collector. The small dealers in my neck of the woods tend to take any better coins that they buy from walk-in sellers to Long Beach, for sale to other dealers.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
There are just too many shows. I have been in a number of hobbies, like astronomy. They have a monthly meeting on observatory hill, spring, summer and winter conventions for the more serious hobbyists as well as online sales sites. At a certain point the promotions and sales outstrip the interest and new material.
Our local coin club had a meeting this week and they were looking to boost their shows, but in reality many small dealers and club members who are set up there do little business and those with problem material don't deserve to snooker collectors, very bad for the hobby. The focus should be on the hobby, history, education, making connections across various other disciplines, not making it more insular or an insider operation.
Sadly I've come to the PCGS only position after fighting it for years. I think that collectors are better off with more than one viable certification company, but NGC is on a self destructive path. You can only keep up your market by giving dealers and other submitters "gimmee grades" without destroying your reputation for grading accuracy. You can old get the prices for over graded coins for so long based on a brand name.
I bought an NGC - CAC graded coin at the last FUN show. A dealer friend told it was over graded as an AU-58. I didn't agree with that opinion, but it shows where NGC has taken itself.
I have read your posts for years. And I have to say that I often find your comments and knowledge to be superior than many others on the Boards. I am surprised that you would make such a broad statement. I can certainly understand that across the many different niches in the industry there are certain ones where PCGS does a better job than NGC but to say that PCGS is superior in every way is not accurate.
I do not know exactly which niches you are experienced in, I presume older coins based on your signature. Which if you said that PCGS was a superior company in 19th century coins I would believe that.
I mainly collected toned 20th century coins, especially post 1964 clads. And I can tell you that there is a high likelihood that there are far more doctored AT coins in PCGS plastic (even Secure holders) than there are in NGC. And not by a small amount either.
I wont even send NT modern toners to NGC based on their reluctance to grade them.
There are numerous PCGS modern toners I wont touch because of the relative lax standards on color over the past several years. I call these bubble coins. Maybe since they are in PCGS plastic, over the long term, they may become MA because they have been blessed by the graders at PCGS but I still worry that one or two doctors that decide to come out could bring all of them crashing down.
I thank the bulk of the market is in the toilet. But coins aren't the only thing that are weak right now guns are the same way. I think most collectibles for the bulk of the people or down I'm not talking the top tier stuff I'm talking what the average Regular Joe collects. If you walk in a coin store and you put together a pile of coins for $1,500 you're going to get much better price per coin than if you go in to buy one $40 Morgan
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
The only certified very mondern coins (mid 1940s and later) that I buy are Proofs in 69 or 70 (if it's cheap) to cover spots on the NGC registry type set. I am still only only collector over there who as completed those sets. When I spend significant sums, it is for coins in the late 18th and 19th centuries.
The PCGS might have the problems you mention; I don't really look at them. For older coins that I collect, PCGS is clearly better and the gap, especially for the gold coins that I have collecting recently, has been widening. Part of the this gap is caused by the fact that many of the best NGC graded coins get crossed over to PCGS. Another part of the gap is due to lax standards and ignoring cleaning problems.
Since I rarely collected slabbed modern coins, I can't address the issues you have posed.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@hchcoin said:
I think if some of the dealers sitting on inventory would lower prices, they might actually see an uptick in business. Someone on the precious metals forum said a large wholesaler had over 7,000 $20 Gold coins in stock and over 40,000 generic silver dollars as well with few buyers.
I also see dealers with the same old inventory at the same old prices. Lower your prices, and get that inventory moving
Why firesale your coins unless you are selling widgets or dreck? You do have a point about generic silver dollars and saints. I'm guessing the dealer is speculating that the price of gold will spike soon.
There is a lot of dreck at the shows, and you see some of the same stuff show after show in the same dealer's show case. One dealer has a key date coin that I'd like to buy, but the piece he has had for a year has been cleaned to death. He had two of them at the last show, and the second one is worse than the first. Yet he quotes high retail on both.
Why tie up your capital in dead stock? It makes no sense to me.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I am still liquidating my dad's stamp collection. On a lot of it, I cannot even get 80% of face. I rarely mail a letter, but I do send a lot of stuff from ebay, but even then, ebay discounts the shipping, so I am still ahead using them, instead of stamps.
Before they discounted shipping, I was using whole sheets of stamps. I sent a cast iron intake to Poland or Slovakia, I forget, Priority Mail, and it was over $150. The box was covered in stamps, and the buyer wound up selling stamps to his friends. Many of the stamps were from the WW2 era, but
a few lazy or not so bright dealers at shows does not reflect the over all market. ask the real retailers of coins on the internet, ask A Mark, dillion gage, etc don't see any of them laying off people.
because some people have dreck they paid too much for and have to sell it at losses does not in any way mean the market is weak.
most ridiculous comment here so far: I thank the bulk of the market is in the toilet. didn't see the koskarian sale? watch pouge and blue moon at the end of the month. yeah, really dead-NOT! even the huge heritage FUN sale was strong this year-not like the last 2 years where it was hell.
can't standing reading fake news that gets posted here
@mustangmanbob said:
At least, at the bottom, they can be spent.
I am still liquidating my dad's stamp collection. On a lot of it, I cannot even get 80% of face. I rarely mail a letter, but I do send a lot of stuff from ebay, but even then, ebay discounts the shipping, so I am still ahead using them, instead of stamps.
Before they discounted shipping, I was using whole sheets of stamps. I sent a cast iron intake to Poland or Slovakia, I forget, Priority Mail, and it was over $150. The box was covered in stamps, and the buyer wound up selling stamps to his friends. Many of the stamps were from the WW2 era, but
NO MARKET
I'm working on both grandfather's and my father's stamp collections and I see you guys crying about coins like lol.
I feel the pain too tho. I can't pay what people ask and I can't get 50% of what I'd deem "somewhat acceptable but not really". It's a sad state of affairs and I keep seeing people post it'll get better when metals do... I doubt it... the young crowd sees a 12.5k penny and thinks of 10 gem .9999 gold pieces.
@elmiracoin said:
One legendary dealer is always boasting of great sales.
This week's report "BOOM goes the dynamite! What a week we had. It was like going from 0 to 80 in 4 seconds."
Ever hear a dealer report he or she had a crappy show?
I sense a disconnect here.
Yes I have read when they had a crappy show. Lots of times.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think part of the disconnect is people not realizing there are multiple "markets" in the coin world at all times.
Saying "The XXX high end auction was FANTASTIC!!", doesn't mean anything with respect to mid grade late date Walking Liberty Halves, or common date Morgans, or raw circulated Lincolns.
For each of us, OUR market conditions are what we experience. Not sure anyone has the right to say we are wrong, Wrong, WRONG!
@7Jaguars said:
But more frequently the rah rah as per Elmira.
I was just answering the question. She complains the loudest when they have a crappy show. I've never known anyone from Legend to be less then honest.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@mustangmanbob said:
At least, at the bottom, they can be spent.
I am still liquidating my dad's stamp collection. On a lot of it, I cannot even get 80% of face. I rarely mail a letter, but I do send a lot of stuff from ebay, but even then, ebay discounts the shipping, so I am still ahead using them, instead of stamps.
Before they discounted shipping, I was using whole sheets of stamps. I sent a cast iron intake to Poland or Slovakia, I forget, Priority Mail, and it was over $150. The box was covered in stamps, and the buyer wound up selling stamps to his friends. Many of the stamps were from the WW2 era, but
NO MARKET
I'm working on both grandfather's and my father's stamp collections and I see you guys crying about coins like lol.
I feel the pain too tho. I can't pay what people ask and I can't get 50% of what I'd deem "somewhat acceptable but not really". It's a sad state of affairs and I keep seeing people post it'll get better when metals do... I doubt it... the young crowd sees a 12.5k penny and thinks of 10 gem .9999 gold pieces.
Earlier, part of the relationship between moderns and classics was that people would flip moderns and use some of those profits on classics.
The whole industry is falling to He!! in a hand basket. Sell me you CAC'ed, monster strike, with exceptional eye appeal coins, before it is too late! I am running out of money!
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
There's still money chasing collectibles. I watched some stamps catalogued at a few hundred dollars bring 10k+ I'm auction this week because they were certified perfect or very near perfect......similar to the ultra grade game in coins.
And these were even super rare stamps.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
go read the new legend market report. i think they are talking to us.
every one here just busts them here because they have chips on their shoulders. those guys are the best of the bestt and they do help people-not just sell to people. I am too embarrassed to say what they did for me-for no fee and a lot of work
One observation I will make from coin shows over the past 10 years is that there will always be dealers who say the show/business/market is good and those so claim it is lousy.
It seems as if it is often the same people who are always in the dumps complaining about business being bad......just my observations.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
@Shortgapbob said:
There's still money chasing collectibles. I watched some stamps catalogued at a few hundred dollars bring 10k+ I'm auction this week because they were certified perfect or very near perfect......similar to the ultra grade game in coins.
And these were even super rare stamps.
By invoking comparisons to the stamp market, you are not making anyone feel any better.
@Shortgapbob said:
There's still money chasing collectibles. I watched some stamps catalogued at a few hundred dollars bring 10k+ I'm auction this week because they were certified perfect or very near perfect......similar to the ultra grade game in coins.
And these were even super rare stamps.
By invoking comparisons to the stamp market, you are not making anyone feel any better.
That was exactly my point.
There's this perception that the stamp market virtually doesn't exist anymore.......totally not the case. Prices in a lot of areas may be way off highs, but there is still a strong collector base for stamps. Graf Zepplin sets are amazingly easy to sell, albeit at far lower prices than in the past.
My point being, there are still a lot of coin collector out there.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
I would describe the US coin market as having different sectors. And then within those sectors there is a trifurcation, at a minimum, as summarized by RYK.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I was just answering the question. She complains the loudest when they have a crappy show. I've never known anyone from Legend to be less then honest.
mark
I was referring to the ridiculous and sometimes childish hyperbole employed; whilst what they report may or not be true, there certainly seems to be a bit of selective magnification going on. I'll leave it at that.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I really respect Laura for her eye and role in the hobby.
Sometimes the thin skin though reminds me of Trump as president tweeting about Arnold Swartzenegger and the Apprentice ratings. Both demean their stature in their roles.
@elmiracoin said:
Anyone here the "super secret buyer" that reportedly stacks and racks piles IF stuff every show?
I believe they also have operatives that work show floors.
They have become a leading dealer, so they must be doing something right.
It ain't spelling and grammar.
@elmiracoin said:
Anyone here the "super secret buyer" that reportedly stacks and racks piles if stuff every show?
I believe they also have operatives that work show floors.
They have become a leading dealer, so they must be doing something right.
It ain't spelling and grammar.
For those on the major show circuit, it's not super difficult to figure out who the "super secret buyer" or the "stealth sales team" are. Not that I would share or blab.
Major coin shows get worked a lot of different ways....the auction room, preshow trading, the bourse floor. The smart dealers, Laura obviously included, use all of the parts of a show.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
I do some of the show that The Reeded Edge does and I seethe something.
I also include these sales in my show summery.
The one I never dome business is in the hotel rooms.
This is a closed club. If you are not on the inside your not invited.
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
I think business has picked up some since a few months ago. Just recently consigned two higher 5 figure coins to dealer I use frequently at yesterdays prices, and they still sold in about 2 to 3 weeks. Ebay sales on better stuff has been good, junk not so much, but that's expected. Damn Chinese rarities are on fire. Coins I have been following on GC have went strong.
@jdimmick said:
I think business has picked up some since a few months ago. Just recently consigned two higher 5 figure coins to dealer I use frequently at yesterdays prices, and they still sold in about 2 to 3 weeks. Ebay sales on better stuff has been good, junk not so much, but that's expected. Damn Chinese rarities are on fire. Coins I have been following on GC have went strong.
Most of what you started is true to some extent. Better coins have always sold well, and very low end junk stills sells. There always seem to be some bottom feeders buying culls. Just check the dealer to dealer sites, such as CCE.
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
I have no idea what and when rare coin prices firm up. I buy the best I can provided it has a low pop. It seems when a rare coin hit the sweet spot on the grade its price gets high. I check the NGC and PCGS pop numbers and find out the grade when the shows an upswing relative to the grade below it. I am trying to get early dollars now as the market for them has been down. I am in it for the long haul and try to stick with a grade that is tough to find. I think the best time to buy assets is when nobody else wants to own them, stocks or coins. I am resigned top the fact that markets cannot be timed and quality wins over time. I got out of school when the energy industry was booming in 1979 and saw it grow until 10/1981. All the sudden oil prices dropping caused the wave to break and break it did. Nobody forecast it. Same goes for the tech bust or 2008 meltdown. The higher the wave the harder it falls. After experiencing this I feel market dips offer opportunity. I don't deal in rare coins but very much enjoy collecting them when the right RARE coin shows up at a market price. I the branch mint gold coins I have dipped in 2008 but have recovered to the pre bust price with minimal exception. If they have not I am not a buyer. As far as the guru forecasters that try to sell you their stock market timing rag news letter are more often wrong than right. Same goes for coin forecast. I allocate 15% of my financial assets in coins and the rest quality stocks. I adjust this allocation annually. It takes the emotion out of buying and selling and forces you to take some profit on a run up and buy when another asset class is down. The people that bought Texas real estate from the banks the foreclosed on the debt in the 1980s made a tremendous amount of money 10 years later. Much real estate was bought from the FDIC as all the large regional banks failed during the 1980s. The smaller banks were already six feet under. Never forget a broken watch is right twice a day and that is more than I can say about the " Wall Street " gurus.
Second Rule of Fight Club. Don't believe everything you read in Dealer Market Reports, especially once they divert into gold, silver, economics and Wall Street. Consider it entertainment and not much else.
And have focused on over the years. I know that when I left Heritage many many many moons ago I was doing early gold and co-workers told me I would never make a lot of money specializing in such a thin area. Well, I didn't listen and I'm happy with the business I cultivated over the years, especially considering my 2 + year "sabbatical" to Vietnam and other points in SE Asia, only to return and find myself right at the start of a nice fun market that quadrupled and having at least a working inventory of XFGXY candidates for such obscene fun.
@Boosibri said:
This thread was enough for Laura to comment about it in her recent Market Reports.
Upper end of market reflects economy , stock market conditions .
Lots of free money sloshing around from stock market rally, that has added $3 trillion dollars in value since Trump election..... a lot looking to be spent
Don't you like the way she is constantly insulting the members here? Not very nice....
She also said:
"Chatrooms create more baloney then (sic) Oscar Meyer!"
IMHO, she is full of herself---she is a 'legend' in her own mind.
Sure, we have our share of BS artists here but, for the most part, there are plenty of knowledgeable and experienced contributors here.
I am amused that she probably only sees the top 5% of the market and then makes broad pronouncements about the entire market while ignoring the other 95%.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
"I believe that is silly since any graded coin that is downgraded should CAC."
That is not a bet that I would make.
Exactly. For example, there are coins that have light, acceptable cleanings that will grade almost every time, maybe at two different grades, but would not CAC at either grade.
I've seen silver dollars, for example, graded MS-64 that had super clean surfaces but were a little "overdipped" in the past. These coins may and do upgrade to MS-65 as the look and grade is acceptable in the hobby. However it is a look that's CAC doesn't like. In this case they probably wouldn't sticker the coin as a 63, 64 or 65.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
I can think of some gem 65/66 NGC seated coins that were downgraded and still didn't sticker. I can think of an essentially finest known for the date seated quarter that didn't CAC as a 64 and when recently upgraded, it still didn't stickeras a 65. So a downgrade back to 64 would likely not sticker next time around. The coin has been in both TPG's 64 and 65 holders over the years....so they see it the same. So that's one example where CAC just doesn't like something about the coin, despite it being fabulous imo.
In CAC GEM classic gold, I would expect that if CAC don't like the "look" of the coin in the 65/66/67 grades, it won't matter if you downgrade 1-2 points, they still won't like that "look." Or if there's some offending spot or tiny portion of a coin's field they don't like, it won't matter what it's graded, they likely won't sticker it. I can think of a notable MS67 seated coin "rarity" that won't sticker at 66, and maybe not even at 65. The last time that coin was auctioned it brought weak 65 money. I would guess that 50-95% of slabbed coins that are downgraded probably would sticker a grade lower....the hard part is the higher end of the range.
I am amused that she probably only sees the top 5% of the market and then makes broad pronouncements about the entire market while ignoring the other 95%.
This is typically splashed in red across the top of her market reports:
THIS REPORT CONTAINS OBSERVATIONS AND FACTS FROM LEGEND NUMISMATICS AND LEGEND AUCTIONS BUSINESS AND OBSERVATIONS AT THE SHOW. OTHERS (ESPECIALLY NOT IN OUR AREAS) WILL HAVE DIFFERENT REPORTS
Comments
One of things that might be making things slow for some dealers is that their inventory is filled with unattractive, over graded coins that few serious collectors want. It seems that most of the good coins that come to market are in the major auctions. Why? Perhaps it has something to do with dealers' buying attitudes.
When I first stuck my toe into the coin dealers' arena in the mid 1970s, I heard the line, "Don't pay the public too much." The message was you had one set of buying prices for trades among other dealers and another lower, often much lower one, when you buying from "the public."
Why should this be? If you are dealer, and you see an item from which you can make a decent mark-up in fairly short order, why shouldn't you buy it regardless of the source? When I was dealer in from the mid 1990s to the mid 2000s, that was my policy.
Trying to pick off an experienced collector is a fool's game. Chances are if he sees that you are out to get him, he's going to take his good coins elsewhere. Quite often that "elsewhere" is a major auction.
And what do you end up with when you play cheapskate with the good collections? Dreck, that's what you get. You get the junk that can barely draw a bid in a major auction.
If dealers would pay a fair dollar for what is offered to them, they might get more good stuff coming through the door and have better material to offer.
I tend to agree with what Bill Jones wrote. Most B & M dealers, in particular, make money off numismatic sales (vs. bullion-related material) by buying on the cheap and then flipping items to other dealers. From the time that a coin is sold to a small dealer, it could easily go through several more pairs of hands before it is sold at retail to another collector. The small dealers in my neck of the woods tend to take any better coins that they buy from walk-in sellers to Long Beach, for sale to other dealers.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
There are just too many shows. I have been in a number of hobbies, like astronomy. They have a monthly meeting on observatory hill, spring, summer and winter conventions for the more serious hobbyists as well as online sales sites. At a certain point the promotions and sales outstrip the interest and new material.
Our local coin club had a meeting this week and they were looking to boost their shows, but in reality many small dealers and club members who are set up there do little business and those with problem material don't deserve to snooker collectors, very bad for the hobby. The focus should be on the hobby, history, education, making connections across various other disciplines, not making it more insular or an insider operation.
I have read your posts for years. And I have to say that I often find your comments and knowledge to be superior than many others on the Boards. I am surprised that you would make such a broad statement. I can certainly understand that across the many different niches in the industry there are certain ones where PCGS does a better job than NGC but to say that PCGS is superior in every way is not accurate.
I do not know exactly which niches you are experienced in, I presume older coins based on your signature. Which if you said that PCGS was a superior company in 19th century coins I would believe that.
I mainly collected toned 20th century coins, especially post 1964 clads. And I can tell you that there is a high likelihood that there are far more doctored AT coins in PCGS plastic (even Secure holders) than there are in NGC. And not by a small amount either.
I wont even send NT modern toners to NGC based on their reluctance to grade them.
There are numerous PCGS modern toners I wont touch because of the relative lax standards on color over the past several years. I call these bubble coins. Maybe since they are in PCGS plastic, over the long term, they may become MA because they have been blessed by the graders at PCGS but I still worry that one or two doctors that decide to come out could bring all of them crashing down.
I thank the bulk of the market is in the toilet. But coins aren't the only thing that are weak right now guns are the same way. I think most collectibles for the bulk of the people or down I'm not talking the top tier stuff I'm talking what the average Regular Joe collects. If you walk in a coin store and you put together a pile of coins for $1,500 you're going to get much better price per coin than if you go in to buy one $40 Morgan
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The only certified very mondern coins (mid 1940s and later) that I buy are Proofs in 69 or 70 (if it's cheap) to cover spots on the NGC registry type set. I am still only only collector over there who as completed those sets. When I spend significant sums, it is for coins in the late 18th and 19th centuries.
The PCGS might have the problems you mention; I don't really look at them. For older coins that I collect, PCGS is clearly better and the gap, especially for the gold coins that I have collecting recently, has been widening. Part of the this gap is caused by the fact that many of the best NGC graded coins get crossed over to PCGS. Another part of the gap is due to lax standards and ignoring cleaning problems.
Since I rarely collected slabbed modern coins, I can't address the issues you have posed.
For RR; bifurcated market with 1A & 1B high end and 2A & 2B low end
I have been forced to attend shows to buy coins at somewhat reasonable prices.
Nobody suffers like you suffer.
Why firesale your coins unless you are selling widgets or dreck? You do have a point about generic silver dollars and saints. I'm guessing the dealer is speculating that the price of gold will spike soon.
There is a lot of dreck at the shows, and you see some of the same stuff show after show in the same dealer's show case. One dealer has a key date coin that I'd like to buy, but the piece he has had for a year has been cleaned to death. He had two of them at the last show, and the second one is worse than the first. Yet he quotes high retail on both.
Why tie up your capital in dead stock? It makes no sense to me.
At least, at the bottom, they can be spent.
I am still liquidating my dad's stamp collection. On a lot of it, I cannot even get 80% of face. I rarely mail a letter, but I do send a lot of stuff from ebay, but even then, ebay discounts the shipping, so I am still ahead using them, instead of stamps.
Before they discounted shipping, I was using whole sheets of stamps. I sent a cast iron intake to Poland or Slovakia, I forget, Priority Mail, and it was over $150. The box was covered in stamps, and the buyer wound up selling stamps to his friends. Many of the stamps were from the WW2 era, but
NO MARKET
a few lazy or not so bright dealers at shows does not reflect the over all market. ask the real retailers of coins on the internet, ask A Mark, dillion gage, etc don't see any of them laying off people.
because some people have dreck they paid too much for and have to sell it at losses does not in any way mean the market is weak.
most ridiculous comment here so far: I thank the bulk of the market is in the toilet. didn't see the koskarian sale? watch pouge and blue moon at the end of the month. yeah, really dead-NOT! even the huge heritage FUN sale was strong this year-not like the last 2 years where it was hell.
can't standing reading fake news that gets posted here
I'm working on both grandfather's and my father's stamp collections and I see you guys crying about coins like lol.
I feel the pain too tho. I can't pay what people ask and I can't get 50% of what I'd deem "somewhat acceptable but not really". It's a sad state of affairs and I keep seeing people post it'll get better when metals do... I doubt it... the young crowd sees a 12.5k penny and thinks of 10 gem .9999 gold pieces.
"Ever hear a dealer report he or she had a crappy show?"
Yes, including her a while back.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Yes I have read when they had a crappy show. Lots of times.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think part of the disconnect is people not realizing there are multiple "markets" in the coin world at all times.
Saying "The XXX high end auction was FANTASTIC!!", doesn't mean anything with respect to mid grade late date Walking Liberty Halves, or common date Morgans, or raw circulated Lincolns.
For each of us, OUR market conditions are what we experience. Not sure anyone has the right to say we are wrong, Wrong, WRONG!
But more frequently the rah rah as per Elmira.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I was just answering the question. She complains the loudest when they have a crappy show. I've never known anyone from Legend to be less then honest.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Earlier, part of the relationship between moderns and classics was that people would flip moderns and use some of those profits on classics.
The whole industry is falling to He!! in a hand basket. Sell me you CAC'ed, monster strike, with exceptional eye appeal coins, before it is too late! I am running out of money!
There's still money chasing collectibles. I watched some stamps catalogued at a few hundred dollars bring 10k+ I'm auction this week because they were certified perfect or very near perfect......similar to the ultra grade game in coins.
And these were even super rare stamps.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
go read the new legend market report. i think they are talking to us.
every one here just busts them here because they have chips on their shoulders. those guys are the best of the bestt and they do help people-not just sell to people. I am too embarrassed to say what they did for me-for no fee and a lot of work
One observation I will make from coin shows over the past 10 years is that there will always be dealers who say the show/business/market is good and those so claim it is lousy.
It seems as if it is often the same people who are always in the dumps complaining about business being bad......just my observations.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
some dealers are also stupid and really are not good business people. and some never learn or let go of their overpriced dreck-that just really greedy
By invoking comparisons to the stamp market, you are not making anyone feel any better.
That was exactly my point.
There's this perception that the stamp market virtually doesn't exist anymore.......totally not the case. Prices in a lot of areas may be way off highs, but there is still a strong collector base for stamps. Graf Zepplin sets are amazingly easy to sell, albeit at far lower prices than in the past.
My point being, there are still a lot of coin collector out there.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
I would describe the US coin market as having different sectors. And then within those sectors there is a trifurcation, at a minimum, as summarized by RYK.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I was referring to the ridiculous and sometimes childish hyperbole employed; whilst what they report may or not be true, there certainly seems to be a bit of selective magnification going on. I'll leave it at that.
Well, just Love coins, period.
This thread was enough for Laura to comment about it in her recent Market Reports.
Latin American Collection
Mouthpieces welcome here.
EAC 6024
Don't you like the way she is constantly insulting the members here? Not very nice....
She also said:
"Chatrooms create more baloney then (sic) Oscar Meyer!"
IMHO, she is full of herself---she is a 'legend' in her own mind.
Sure, we have our share of BS artists here but, for the most part, there are plenty of knowledgeable and experienced contributors here.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I really respect Laura for her eye and role in the hobby.
Sometimes the thin skin though reminds me of Trump as president tweeting about Arnold Swartzenegger and the Apprentice ratings. Both demean their stature in their roles.
Latin American Collection
Glass houses....lol
IMHO A lot of Bullion collectors start as stackers and also end up being coin collectors.
100% Positive BST transactions
For those on the major show circuit, it's not super difficult to figure out who the "super secret buyer" or the "stealth sales team" are. Not that I would share or blab.
Major coin shows get worked a lot of different ways....the auction room, preshow trading, the bourse floor. The smart dealers, Laura obviously included, use all of the parts of a show.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
I do some of the show that The Reeded Edge does and I seethe something.
I also include these sales in my show summery.
The one I never dome business is in the hotel rooms.
This is a closed club. If you are not on the inside your not invited.
I think business has picked up some since a few months ago. Just recently consigned two higher 5 figure coins to dealer I use frequently at yesterdays prices, and they still sold in about 2 to 3 weeks. Ebay sales on better stuff has been good, junk not so much, but that's expected. Damn Chinese rarities are on fire. Coins I have been following on GC have went strong.
Most of what you started is true to some extent. Better coins have always sold well, and very low end junk stills sells. There always seem to be some bottom feeders buying culls. Just check the dealer to dealer sites, such as CCE.
I have no idea what and when rare coin prices firm up. I buy the best I can provided it has a low pop. It seems when a rare coin hit the sweet spot on the grade its price gets high. I check the NGC and PCGS pop numbers and find out the grade when the shows an upswing relative to the grade below it. I am trying to get early dollars now as the market for them has been down. I am in it for the long haul and try to stick with a grade that is tough to find. I think the best time to buy assets is when nobody else wants to own them, stocks or coins. I am resigned top the fact that markets cannot be timed and quality wins over time. I got out of school when the energy industry was booming in 1979 and saw it grow until 10/1981. All the sudden oil prices dropping caused the wave to break and break it did. Nobody forecast it. Same goes for the tech bust or 2008 meltdown. The higher the wave the harder it falls. After experiencing this I feel market dips offer opportunity. I don't deal in rare coins but very much enjoy collecting them when the right RARE coin shows up at a market price. I the branch mint gold coins I have dipped in 2008 but have recovered to the pre bust price with minimal exception. If they have not I am not a buyer. As far as the guru forecasters that try to sell you their stock market timing rag news letter are more often wrong than right. Same goes for coin forecast. I allocate 15% of my financial assets in coins and the rest quality stocks. I adjust this allocation annually. It takes the emotion out of buying and selling and forces you to take some profit on a run up and buy when another asset class is down. The people that bought Texas real estate from the banks the foreclosed on the debt in the 1980s made a tremendous amount of money 10 years later. Much real estate was bought from the FDIC as all the large regional banks failed during the 1980s. The smaller banks were already six feet under. Never forget a broken watch is right twice a day and that is more than I can say about the " Wall Street " gurus.
I don`t know... Everything I have been into is higher priced and more sort after then ever...
Second Rule of Fight Club. Don't believe everything you read in Dealer Market Reports, especially once they divert into gold, silver, economics and Wall Street. Consider it entertainment and not much else.
I think it all depends on what you specialize in if anything and the type of customer base you focus on .
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
And have focused on over the years. I know that when I left Heritage many many many moons ago I was doing early gold and co-workers told me I would never make a lot of money specializing in such a thin area. Well, I didn't listen and I'm happy with the business I cultivated over the years, especially considering my 2 + year "sabbatical" to Vietnam and other points in SE Asia, only to return and find myself right at the start of a nice fun market that quadrupled and having at least a working inventory of XFGXY candidates for such obscene fun.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Upper end of market reflects economy , stock market conditions .
Lots of free money sloshing around from stock market rally, that has added $3 trillion dollars in value since Trump election..... a lot looking to be spent
I am amused that she probably only sees the top 5% of the market and then makes broad pronouncements about the entire market while ignoring the other 95%.
"I believe that is silly since any graded coin that is downgraded should CAC."
That is not a bet that I would make.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Exactly. For example, there are coins that have light, acceptable cleanings that will grade almost every time, maybe at two different grades, but would not CAC at either grade.
I've seen silver dollars, for example, graded MS-64 that had super clean surfaces but were a little "overdipped" in the past. These coins may and do upgrade to MS-65 as the look and grade is acceptable in the hobby. However it is a look that's CAC doesn't like. In this case they probably wouldn't sticker the coin as a 63, 64 or 65.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
I can think of some gem 65/66 NGC seated coins that were downgraded and still didn't sticker. I can think of an essentially finest known for the date seated quarter that didn't CAC as a 64 and when recently upgraded, it still didn't stickeras a 65. So a downgrade back to 64 would likely not sticker next time around. The coin has been in both TPG's 64 and 65 holders over the years....so they see it the same. So that's one example where CAC just doesn't like something about the coin, despite it being fabulous imo.
In CAC GEM classic gold, I would expect that if CAC don't like the "look" of the coin in the 65/66/67 grades, it won't matter if you downgrade 1-2 points, they still won't like that "look." Or if there's some offending spot or tiny portion of a coin's field they don't like, it won't matter what it's graded, they likely won't sticker it. I can think of a notable MS67 seated coin "rarity" that won't sticker at 66, and maybe not even at 65. The last time that coin was auctioned it brought weak 65 money. I would guess that 50-95% of slabbed coins that are downgraded probably would sticker a grade lower....the hard part is the higher end of the range.
This is typically splashed in red across the top of her market reports:
THIS REPORT CONTAINS OBSERVATIONS AND FACTS FROM LEGEND NUMISMATICS AND LEGEND AUCTIONS BUSINESS AND OBSERVATIONS AT THE SHOW. OTHERS (ESPECIALLY NOT IN OUR AREAS) WILL HAVE DIFFERENT REPORTS