@sparky64 said:
" At the time of the beaning........."
Sounds like a solemn event that should be presided by a Priest or Rabbi.
Maybe CAC bathes them in holy water before the beaning... All I know is if the coin isn't blessed and "saved" by CAC, it is pretty much condemned to coin hades more or less or condemned to dreck-dom.
This is one "beaned" coin that I would have no interest in. It may look different in hand, but the rub up and down Ms Liberty's entire length is something of a turnoff.
Let's face the fact that there is an inner circle and outer circle full of a bunch of squares dealing with rectangles and ovals
@Shortgapbob said:
I will reiterate that this hobby is so much bigger than these messages boards or the network of collectors who travel the show/auction circuit.
Honestly, there is probably more negativity on these forums about the hobby than I see anywhere else.
When you collect state quarters from circulation, Washington silver quarters in AG3 condition, generic gold near melt, or BU common date Morgan dollars for a small premium over melt, there isn't much to worry about. To paraphrase another poster, there isn't much farther to fall. Besides the bullion market seems to be doing okay.
Most of the serious collectors and major national dealers (read as those with a substantial financial interest in numismatics) either post here or are well aware of the topics discussed in this thread. These topics probably are of little interest to a number of collectors who collect widget below $300. Before anyone asks, that is not a throw off on them or anyone else.
@Shortgapbob said:
I will reiterate that this hobby is so much bigger than these messages boards or the network of collectors who travel the show/auction circuit.
Honestly, there is probably more negativity on these forums about the hobby than I see anywhere else.
When you collect state quarters from circulation, Washington silver quarters in AG3 condition, generic gold near melt, or BU common date Morgan dollars for a small premium over melt, there isn't much to worry about. To paraphrase another poster, there isn't much farther to fall. Besides the bullion market seems to be doing okay.
Most of the serious collectors and major national dealers (read as those with a substantial financial interest in numismatics) either post here or are well aware of the topics discussed in this thread. These topics probably are of little interest to a number of collectors who collect widget below $300. Before anyone asks, that is not a throw off on them or anyone else.
I disagree, while a number of serious collectors and dealers post here, the great majority of collectors and dealers who spend series money on coins do not post here. Many don't even know if it's existence.
This message board is a great place and a great educational tool, but it sometimes overstates its significance. The hobby (including serious money...those spending 10s and even 100s of thousands) goes far, far beyond this message board.
To assume that the only serious collectors are on this board and everyone is just collects State Quarters and junk dollars is short-sighted and misinformed.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
@Shortgapbob said:
I will reiterate that this hobby is so much bigger than these messages boards or the network of collectors who travel the show/auction circuit.
Honestly, there is probably more negativity on these forums about the hobby than I see anywhere else.
When you collect state quarters from circulation, Washington silver quarters in AG3 condition, generic gold near melt, or BU common date Morgan dollars for a small premium over melt, there isn't much to worry about. To paraphrase another poster, there isn't much farther to fall. Besides the bullion market seems to be doing okay.
Most of the serious collectors and major national dealers (read as those with a substantial financial interest in numismatics) either post here or are well aware of the topics discussed in this thread. These topics probably are of little interest to a number of collectors who collect widget below $300. Before anyone asks, that is not a throw off on them or anyone else.
Ouch.
Offense taken but fortunately, I can take it.
Put me down as one of the sub $300 widgeteers who finds this topic very interesting.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
Great thread. I am enjoying the down market as I sit and type this. I found a niche corner of the market that seems to be chewed up and spit out by the majority of collectors and it has become so under priced that I have decided to start collecting something entirely out of my comfort zone. When I post it here, I am sure many will think I am nuts but it is all in fun and not very costly. It kind of has sparked my interest again
I collect a variety of coins, many in widget status. I love VF bust halves. My Barber half set has an average grade around VF30 and no keys below 30, many of the commons are widgets, but the keys certainly aren't. I collect IHCs in AU, even the ultra-commons.
Whether $10 coin or $1000 coin it all adds up. Coin Collecting is not just about material over $500. I bid on G/VG Barber Halves all the time just 4 fun and even have retailed a few from my online store.
My CLCT stock investment seems to be doing better than my numismatic investment last few years. Strange indeed. But, I like coins as a collector more than and investment. IMHO only have 10-20% of net worth ( excluding home ) tied up in Coins and or bullion.
There are a couple of B&M stores in my town that would be thrilled to have 3 customers a day. The pawn shops kill them up here where I am at. Then you have the TDN's, Simpson's and the like that don't even have to ask the price before they get the check book out. But for everyone of the TDN's you have a 1000 collectors that never spend 500. on a coin. There is still plenty of room for improvement. It took me 3 years to return my business to pre 2008 totals. Most of my real estate properties are way ahead, even the 400 acres I bought 2 months before the collapse is above water, my cows are so so but most of my coins will never break even.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
@Justacommeman said:
I think you are more likely to be buried $300 at a time then on quality big ticket items. I see this over and over in all markets. Blue ribbon collectibles never go out of style.
Mark
Never out of style but many go seriously in the tank for extended periods of time. The 1794 SP66 dollar appreciated ten thousand fold in a lifetime. To believe that a significant drop from the last transaction price is not possible is short sighted.
@Justacommeman said:
I think you are more likely to be buried $300 at a time then on quality big ticket items. I see this over and over in all markets. Blue ribbon collectibles never go out of style.
Mark
Never out of style but many go seriously in the tank for extended periods of time. The 1794 SP66 dollar appreciated ten thousand fold in a lifetime. To believe that a significant drop from the last transaction price is not possible is short sighted.
That same SP66 FH $ in the 1989-1993 period supposedly was valued or traded for around the $1 MILL mark at the peak. It later sold at auction at under half that price as the recession hit the coin market hard. Lots of great coins can get hit during tough times, even rarities and finest knowns. The best coin I ever owned (and currently the finest known by a mile) went from $1800 to $30,000 in only 5 years. Then it fell to under $10,000 only 6 years later. Then another move up to $50,000 in 3 years. Then a move back down to $25K in 6 years. Than a move up to $75,000 in 6 years. It's last time out in 2015 was $88K. Volatility is rather common.
@Shortgapbob said:
I will reiterate that this hobby is so much bigger than these messages boards or the network of collectors who travel the show/auction circuit.
Honestly, there is probably more negativity on these forums about the hobby than I see anywhere else.
When you collect state quarters from circulation, Washington silver quarters in AG3 condition, generic gold near melt, or BU common date Morgan dollars for a small premium over melt, there isn't much to worry about. To paraphrase another poster, there isn't much farther to fall. Besides the bullion market seems to be doing okay.
Most of the serious collectors and major national dealers (read as those with a substantial financial interest in numismatics) either post here or are well aware of the topics discussed in this thread. These topics probably are of little interest to a number of collectors who collect widget below $300. Before anyone asks, that is not a throw off on them or anyone else.
I disagree, while a number of serious collectors and dealers post here, the great majority of collectors and dealers who spend series money on coins do not post here. Many don't even know if it's existence.
This message board is a great place and a great educational tool, but it sometimes overstates its significance. The hobby (including serious money...those spending 10s and even 100s of thousands) goes far, far beyond this message board.
To assume that the only serious collectors are on this board and everyone is just collects State Quarters and junk dollars is short-sighted and misinformed.
Again, in fairness to me, I said either posted to this board or were otherwise aware of the issues. The average coin collector more than likely has holdings worth less than $5k. The average poster here likely has more than that, and many of them, many multiples of that. CAC and the factors at play (e.g. grade inflation) likely won't make as much of a difference at the <$300 level. If you have less at stake and are not as affected by the market, then there is less reason to be negative or to really care at all. The fact the Laura and some of the other dealers see a short-term turnaround is no consolation unless it holds. Three months does not make up for eight or nine years of depreciation. It wasn't that long ago that she was lamenting the market in her market reports. I would love nothing more than to be wrong about the long term health of this hobby.
Ouch.
Offense taken but fortunately, I can take it.
Put me down as one of the sub $300 widgeteers who finds this topic very interesting.
@kaz said:
I think I'm mostly a widgeteer too. Hey, how about a club, with hats and a secret handshake? Numismatic Association of Widgeteers, or NAW for short?
I was afraid that people would view the statement in ways other than intended. My point was that the average poster here has much more on the line than the average collecting public. The less you have at stake (and the less prone your holdings are to CAC or grade inflation factors), the less likely you are to care enough to be negative. Coins worth less than $300 tend to be more common and are affected less by grade inflation. CAC and other market factors at play are either non issues or much less important.
@kaz said:
I think I'm mostly a widgeteer too. Hey, how about a club, with hats and a secret handshake? Numismatic Association of Widgeteers, or NAW for short?
And a "square of trust" instead of a "circle of trust".
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Over the past few months I tried to sell a few coins to dealers, on the BST, and through a couple of various venues. Some sold. The ones that didn't I consigned with Ian at Great Collections. Just over half were CAC. It was a mix..... about 15% early copper, an early-ish nickel, some generic pre '33 gold, a classic commem toner, 15% moderns, the rest Bust and Seated type. About half of the CAC'd coins stickered after I bought them. Most were mid three-figure to low four-figure coins...... "collector grade" stuff.
The auction concluded a couple hours ago. I lost money on every single coin. I recovered 61% of my investment on the CAC coins and 49% of my investment on the non-CAC coins. Even on the CAC gold I lost 20% (gold prices were high when purchased).
The auction did not meet my self-determined "worst case" scenario. Not even close. We can debate the merits of my selected venue, timing, proximity to other auctions, Summer ANA, etc, but for me this was surprising. I don't generally buy ugly stuff (admittedly these weren't my best coins) and I usually come out ahead or a few percent in red. I knew the market was soft but I hoped to recover between 70-80% of my purchase price. I've never personally taken a bath like this, especially not over a diverse bunch of coins. Ignore the gold and most things went for a bit over 1/2 of current PCGS Price Guide prices. The best performer was a single CAC'd toner that went for 90% of Price Guide.
It's not devastating as I only spend "hobby money" on coins, but it will inform my future buying & selling decisions. In hindsight, I probably would have just kept most of these and hoped for a better market someday.
A final afterthought........ I don't think it's possible for a person with any emotional attachment to their coins (a collector) to view them correctly as an investment vehicle. Buying low and selling high is mentally tough exercise in any asset class, but virtually impossible when you're mixed up in a hobby masquerading as an "investment" or an investment masquerading as a hobby.
@BryceM - Are those percentages strictly your net proceeds or are you counting GC's slice of the pie (i.e. buyer's and seller's fee) in your statistics?
.... and please allow me to add.... This is not to meant to imply any negativity toward GC. Ian is one of the good guys and it not his fault it didn't work out this time.
@tradedollarnut said:
It's not possible because it won't be sold for a loss.
Even assuming that you never have a cash flow squeeze or other financial reversal which forces a sale, you have no control over what your heirs might do with the coin.
"A final afterthought........ I don't think it's possible for a person with any emotional attachment to their coins (a collector) to view them correctly as an investment vehicle. Buying low and selling high is mentally tough exercise in any asset class, but virtually impossible when you're mixed up in a hobby masquerading as an "investment" or an investment masquerading as a hobby."
I fully agree. 'Investor-collector' is an oxymoron----real investors will not fall in love with their coins, they focus on maximizing their ROIs.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
My impression is there are more people selling out, liquidating than new money coming in - an over supply of sellers especially at or below bid vs retail buyers coupled with anemic upward movement in Bid or BV.....this has been obvious for a long time in some of the items I have won easily below or around bid or or the lack of competition on some key coin I had targeted where my AS Bid was high enough to take it. Big ticket coins if big money people not there or bidding that nite well it's game over.
I agree with Bryce the market is soft. I do buy from GC to get material for my retail inventory and occasionally the 24 hour deals they offer which have no buyers fee. But many times somebody would outbid me in last few minutes. Probably should put my old TTR hat on where I would bid Cdn bid plus 5 pct ( calc juice so get it at that) in the last minute or two and possibly win the item as a higher bid they getting it around retail. Any kind of blowout I do generally prefer eBay as they have no buyers fee and I can pull the auction a day before auction close if bidding looks really bad. I wish could AS on GC as AS allows me change or cancel snipe up until a few minutes before close. A lot of these auctions seller gets whipsawed by juice both ways. GC is a top flight operation and I would consign to them if not for platforms I have. I did like the TTR buyback feature (bidding on own stuff run bids up, get good bids on it or take it back.
If forced liquidation (bad times, divorce, etc) I would do it piece meal so not all at once on a venue I had control over like eBay w Fixed, BIN / Make Offer, Auction. That way I could know what to expect and develop strategy.
One thing the market really seems hot for the Canada 1.25 oz silver Bison, fantastic coin in PCGS or NGC MS69 and MS70 which I had my retail cost plus markup on - I have basically sold out. One I had $30 in went for $60 recently and not had it long - crazy as numismatic material slow sales so far this year, no wonder people taking hits on it.
The market will turnaround when demand catches up with over supply.
I have no emotional attachment to coins except maximize ROI, favs marked up higher than others and no intent for them to pass to heirs / their intent is to finance other project / hobby activities.
.... and please allow me to add.... This is not to meant to imply any negativity toward GC. Ian is one of the good guys and it not his fault it didn't work out this time.
GC is the bright star of numismatics. I got dinged by Heritage for $17 shipping on 3 tokens totaling $430, GC would be about $5. I agree also with Ian's contention in another thread that the market for several categories have strengthened. Even the lowly mid grade common Morgan has ticked up a bit.
@Justacommeman said:
I think you are more likely to be buried $300 at a time then on quality big ticket items. I see this over and over in all markets. Blue ribbon collectibles never go out of style.
Mark
Never out of style but many go seriously in the tank for extended periods of time. The 1794 SP66 dollar appreciated ten thousand fold in a lifetime. To believe that a significant drop from the last transaction price is not possible is short sighted.
You presume too much
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Markets are littered with investors that expected a guaranteed or even positive return. TDN is a player that does not get rocked by market fluctuations. Seemingly though, many who have posted on this thread are of much weaker hands...
Never out of style but many go seriously in the tank for extended periods of time. The 1794 SP66 dollar appreciated ten thousand fold in a lifetime. To believe that a significant drop from the last transaction price is not possible is short sighted.
You presume too much
mark
What is he presuming, other than coin values are capable of dropping? I'd hardly say someone recognizing that obvious truth is being too presumptuous. That's especially true in this instance, where the much celebrated jump bid looks more and more like the proverbial bell being rung that signals the top of the market.
Over the past few months I tried to sell a few coins to dealers, on the BST, and through a couple of various venues. Some sold. The ones that didn't I consigned with Ian at Great Collections. Just over half were CAC. It was a mix..... about 15% early copper, an early-ish nickel, some generic pre '33 gold, a classic commem toner, 15% moderns, the rest Bust and Seated type. About half of the CAC'd coins stickered after I bought them. Most were mid three-figure to low four-figure coins...... "collector grade" stuff.
The auction concluded a couple hours ago. I lost money on every single coin. I recovered 61% of my investment on the CAC coins and 49% of my investment on the non-CAC coins. Even on the CAC gold I lost 20% (gold prices were high when purchased).
The auction did not meet my self-determined "worst case" scenario. Not even close. We can debate the merits of my selected venue, timing, proximity to other auctions, Summer ANA, etc, but for me this was surprising. I don't generally buy ugly stuff (admittedly these weren't my best coins) and I usually come out ahead or a few percent in red. I knew the market was soft but I hoped to recover between 70-80% of my purchase price. I've never personally taken a bath like this, especially not over a diverse bunch of coins. Ignore the gold and most things went for a bit over 1/2 of current PCGS Price Guide prices. The best performer was a single CAC'd toner that went for 90% of Price Guide.
It's not devastating as I only spend "hobby money" on coins, but it will inform my future buying & selling decisions. In hindsight, I probably would have just kept most of these and hoped for a better market someday.
A final afterthought........ I don't think it's possible for a person with any emotional attachment to their coins (a collector) to view them correctly as an investment vehicle. Buying low and selling high is mentally tough exercise in any asset class, but virtually impossible when you're mixed up in a hobby masquerading as an "investment" or an investment masquerading as a hobby.
Sorry for the drubbing -- probably in hindsight it might've been better to hold and wait for better days. I would say though, that mid-3 figure to low fours -- coins that cost $500-1200 per let's say -- are quite often not what I'd call "collector grade" stuff. I can count on three fingers the coins I've owned that come close to approaching that value per piece. The vast majority of my collection being worth far less than $100 per piece, and many, probably the majority, being worth sub-$50. Which I suppose only proves that one person's "collector stuff" is another person's caviar.
@Shortgapbob said:
I will reiterate that this hobby is so much bigger than these messages boards or the network of collectors who travel the show/auction circuit.
Honestly, there is probably more negativity on these forums about the hobby than I see anywhere else.
When you collect state quarters from circulation, Washington silver quarters in AG3 condition, generic gold near melt, or BU common date Morgan dollars for a small premium over melt, there isn't much to worry about. To paraphrase another poster, there isn't much farther to fall. Besides the bullion market seems to be doing okay.
Most of the serious collectors and major national dealers (read as those with a substantial financial interest in numismatics) either post here or are well aware of the topics discussed in this thread. These topics probably are of little interest to a number of collectors who collect widget below $300. Before anyone asks, that is not a throw off on them or anyone else.
I think that accurately sums up my situation and very likely that of many others. Many times I've certainly wished for the ability to pay $1000's per coin; but were that the case, and I started seeing significant haircuts to those valuations, I'd pause too. Perhaps weighing the need to hold vs. the temptation to catch a falling knife, if I could convince distressed sellers to sell.
@Justacommeman said:
I think you are more likely to be buried $300 at a time then on quality big ticket items. I see this over and over in all markets. Blue ribbon collectibles never go out of style.
Mark
Well then, I must be SOL, as even getting to the $300 level ain't gonna happen for me in current circumstances. LOL!
Yes I think coins over $500 can be a tough sell - it's going to take the right buyer at right time. Furthermore the more picky buyers get the more expensive the coin. Sadly I see many trying sell big ticket coins where toning starting to really darken in holder - nobody wants these. AGE or AGB close to melt wb an exception PCGS MS69 of course in selling big ticket material.
In the $ 500 - $1200 range I would recommend Slabbed World Gold Issues. Coins like the Mexico $50 Peso Centanario are so much more scarcer than many US issues. These are higher than $1200 though. No sticker game either on world gold, a plus.
An eBay store is only $25 a month - I would try listing there with all the listing options available to get a feel for selling. I have had coins I listed with an opening bid of Bluesheet or say 10 pct back of greysheet not sell on auction then throw back in store at retail and then sell 2 weeks later at retail! It takes the right buyer at the right time in this market over saturated with sellers / supply exceeding demand.
@shorecoll said:
I collect a variety of coins, many in widget status. I love VF bust halves. My Barber half set has an average grade around VF30 and no keys below 30, many of the commons are widgets, but the keys certainly aren't. I collect IHCs in AU, even the ultra-commons.
Well here's something I can get behind -- I also love Indian cents in AU!
I dunno. Overall I've had some spectacular (for me) losses made up for by some spectacular (for me) gains that have offset each other over my years of collecting sportscards, comics, and coins. I've probably come out even or possibly a little ahead, but as far as investments go it's not been a good one. True "investment potential" in coins, I fear, even with all the risks that come along with it, comes with an entry fee far, far higher than I can hope to afford. Common coins will always be common coins, but they are what I can afford to collect and enjoy owning. Ah well.
Sorry. By "collector grade" I only meant coins far down in the pop reports...... no condition rarities. There are better ways I could have said this. Actually.... the term isn't a very good one. Aren't we all collectors? For TDN, a 1794 dollar is collector grade at SP66.
If the goal is to have fun and enjoy the hobby, there are people doing this quite nicely at all levels. The only collection that a person should be ashamed of is the one that was assembled with no thought or care.
It's funny with all the talk of the market being soft the local show here was busier than it has been in a while over the weekend. I didn't have a table because of previous obligations, but attended both days. All of the dealers were talking about how busy the floor was and there seemed to be a lot of action both buying and selling.
I didn't really notice a downturn in prices either while trying to buy. Most dealers wanted all the money and the few deals I found were from dealers that I know well. It really all boils down to how bad you need the money I suppose. I recently sold off a large consignment that started out with BIN listings and was selling a bit at a time for decent to strong prices. After a couple months my consignor decided he needed his cash so asked me to turn all of the coins to no reserve auctions. Many went for fair prices, but there were some that I'm sure he took a bath on.
This forum is a small slice of the market, even if some big players post here. Look at the Dan Carr pieces. Here on the forum they are selling for strong prices whenever listed and people here who collect his stuff have no problem paying $100 for a new issue. Take some of his items to a show and you will spend half your day trying to explain why you are charging more than melt +.50c for a 1oz round.
I made my first two purchases in a while yesterday on eBay, 2 varieties I needed. They went for decent money, not real bargains, and not too high, and they didn't get run up at the last second with snipes (so I guess I'm the greater fool?). Anyway, one had 20 bidders and the other 15, that doesn't sound like a dead market...maybe we're just negotiating.
I still buy on occasion... meaning whenever I feel like it. Most recently a few barber halves to upgrade a set that hadn't been touched in about 13 years. I noticed that the recent PCGS graded Morgan that I bought was about 55% of their posted value for that particular grade. I like the look of it and have wanted one for a while, so why not now? To me this is my hobby, and not my retirement portfolio. Markets go up and down, the sun rises in the east, keep on the sunny side, don't worry be happy.
There is a market for schlock , dreck and Preparation H. ( a substitute for virgin olive oil). It's not bad for everyone, or for those who like it. And there's a market for aluminum, steel, and brass. Heck, there's a market for paper, plastic and glue.
Sorry. By "collector grade" I only meant coins far down in the pop reports...... no condition rarities. There are better ways I could have said this. Actually.... the term isn't a very good one. Aren't we all collectors? For TDN, a 1794 dollar is collector grade at SP66.
If the goal is to have fun and enjoy the hobby, there are people doing this quite nicely at all levels. The only collection that a person should be ashamed of is the one that was assembled with no thought or care.
No offense taken and I hope none given, as I certainly don't see you as the type of collector given to "putting on airs."
My thought is that majority of coins/grades are down. There are portions of the market that are strong, and that seems to be what most people are arguing over. But it seems clear that the bulk trend is down.
I am under the impression that there is a shortage of quality coins because people are less willing to sell at a loss.
I hope it drops further. I got priced out of the US coin market when I started collecting 5 years ago. If it drops another 50%, I might be able to start a US coin collection.
I was at a good sized show this weekend. The dealers who have not lowered prices to current market prices looked lonely. The dealers who have lowered prices to current market prices and had good stuff had a mob around the table and you had to wait just to get a peek. Money was flying back and forth at those tables. I love these kind of dealers! Funny thing is that I go to this show every year and its always the same dealers having an amazing show selling soup to nuts if you know what I mean
I generally believe these types of dealers make money in any market - up, down or flat. They are really just trying to make a small margin on the buy sell spread and make it up with volume. They have super strong buy prices for the room and then have very fair sell prices. They move a ton of stuff and get offered some great coins because they are fair on both sides of the transaction.
Comments
Let's face the fact that there is an inner circle and outer circle full of a bunch of squares dealing with rectangles and ovals
HE>I
When you collect state quarters from circulation, Washington silver quarters in AG3 condition, generic gold near melt, or BU common date Morgan dollars for a small premium over melt, there isn't much to worry about. To paraphrase another poster, there isn't much farther to fall. Besides the bullion market seems to be doing okay.
Most of the serious collectors and major national dealers (read as those with a substantial financial interest in numismatics) either post here or are well aware of the topics discussed in this thread. These topics probably are of little interest to a number of collectors who collect widget below $300. Before anyone asks, that is not a throw off on them or anyone else.
I disagree, while a number of serious collectors and dealers post here, the great majority of collectors and dealers who spend series money on coins do not post here. Many don't even know if it's existence.
This message board is a great place and a great educational tool, but it sometimes overstates its significance. The hobby (including serious money...those spending 10s and even 100s of thousands) goes far, far beyond this message board.
To assume that the only serious collectors are on this board and everyone is just collects State Quarters and junk dollars is short-sighted and misinformed.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
"This message board is a great place and a great educational tool, but it sometimes overstates its significance. "
I agree.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Ouch.
Offense taken but fortunately, I can take it.
Put me down as one of the sub $300 widgeteers who finds this topic very interesting.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I think I'm mostly a widgeteer too. Hey, how about a club, with hats and a secret handshake? Numismatic Association of Widgeteers, or NAW for short?
Great thread. I am enjoying the down market as I sit and type this. I found a niche corner of the market that seems to be chewed up and spit out by the majority of collectors and it has become so under priced that I have decided to start collecting something entirely out of my comfort zone. When I post it here, I am sure many will think I am nuts but it is all in fun and not very costly. It kind of has sparked my interest again
Widgets are fine. But, what about "BODIES?"........... Buyers Of Dreck In Each State?
I collect a variety of coins, many in widget status. I love VF bust halves. My Barber half set has an average grade around VF30 and no keys below 30, many of the commons are widgets, but the keys certainly aren't. I collect IHCs in AU, even the ultra-commons.
Whether $10 coin or $1000 coin it all adds up. Coin Collecting is not just about material over $500. I bid on G/VG Barber Halves all the time just 4 fun and even have retailed a few from my online store.
My CLCT stock investment seems to be doing better than my numismatic investment last few years. Strange indeed. But, I like coins as a collector more than and investment. IMHO only have 10-20% of net worth ( excluding home ) tied up in Coins and or bullion.
100% Positive BST transactions
There are a couple of B&M stores in my town that would be thrilled to have 3 customers a day. The pawn shops kill them up here where I am at. Then you have the TDN's, Simpson's and the like that don't even have to ask the price before they get the check book out. But for everyone of the TDN's you have a 1000 collectors that never spend 500. on a coin. There is still plenty of room for improvement. It took me 3 years to return my business to pre 2008 totals. Most of my real estate properties are way ahead, even the 400 acres I bought 2 months before the collapse is above water, my cows are so so but most of my coins will never break even.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Never out of style but many go seriously in the tank for extended periods of time. The 1794 SP66 dollar appreciated ten thousand fold in a lifetime. To believe that a significant drop from the last transaction price is not possible is short sighted.
It's not possible because it won't be sold for a loss.
Sorry, RR, I have to say "NAW" to "BODIES."
That same SP66 FH $ in the 1989-1993 period supposedly was valued or traded for around the $1 MILL mark at the peak. It later sold at auction at under half that price as the recession hit the coin market hard. Lots of great coins can get hit during tough times, even rarities and finest knowns. The best coin I ever owned (and currently the finest known by a mile) went from $1800 to $30,000 in only 5 years. Then it fell to under $10,000 only 6 years later. Then another move up to $50,000 in 3 years. Then a move back down to $25K in 6 years. Than a move up to $75,000 in 6 years. It's last time out in 2015 was $88K. Volatility is rather common.
Damn....that was quick, Bruce.
Again, in fairness to me, I said either posted to this board or were otherwise aware of the issues. The average coin collector more than likely has holdings worth less than $5k. The average poster here likely has more than that, and many of them, many multiples of that. CAC and the factors at play (e.g. grade inflation) likely won't make as much of a difference at the <$300 level. If you have less at stake and are not as affected by the market, then there is less reason to be negative or to really care at all. The fact the Laura and some of the other dealers see a short-term turnaround is no consolation unless it holds. Three months does not make up for eight or nine years of depreciation. It wasn't that long ago that she was lamenting the market in her market reports. I would love nothing more than to be wrong about the long term health of this hobby.
I was afraid that people would view the statement in ways other than intended. My point was that the average poster here has much more on the line than the average collecting public. The less you have at stake (and the less prone your holdings are to CAC or grade inflation factors), the less likely you are to care enough to be negative. Coins worth less than $300 tend to be more common and are affected less by grade inflation. CAC and other market factors at play are either non issues or much less important.
And a "square of trust" instead of a "circle of trust".
A data point......
Over the past few months I tried to sell a few coins to dealers, on the BST, and through a couple of various venues. Some sold. The ones that didn't I consigned with Ian at Great Collections. Just over half were CAC. It was a mix..... about 15% early copper, an early-ish nickel, some generic pre '33 gold, a classic commem toner, 15% moderns, the rest Bust and Seated type. About half of the CAC'd coins stickered after I bought them. Most were mid three-figure to low four-figure coins...... "collector grade" stuff.
The auction concluded a couple hours ago. I lost money on every single coin. I recovered 61% of my investment on the CAC coins and 49% of my investment on the non-CAC coins. Even on the CAC gold I lost 20% (gold prices were high when purchased).
The auction did not meet my self-determined "worst case" scenario. Not even close. We can debate the merits of my selected venue, timing, proximity to other auctions, Summer ANA, etc, but for me this was surprising. I don't generally buy ugly stuff (admittedly these weren't my best coins) and I usually come out ahead or a few percent in red. I knew the market was soft but I hoped to recover between 70-80% of my purchase price. I've never personally taken a bath like this, especially not over a diverse bunch of coins. Ignore the gold and most things went for a bit over 1/2 of current PCGS Price Guide prices. The best performer was a single CAC'd toner that went for 90% of Price Guide.
It's not devastating as I only spend "hobby money" on coins, but it will inform my future buying & selling decisions. In hindsight, I probably would have just kept most of these and hoped for a better market someday.
A final afterthought........ I don't think it's possible for a person with any emotional attachment to their coins (a collector) to view them correctly as an investment vehicle. Buying low and selling high is mentally tough exercise in any asset class, but virtually impossible when you're mixed up in a hobby masquerading as an "investment" or an investment masquerading as a hobby.
@BryceM - Are those percentages strictly your net proceeds or are you counting GC's slice of the pie (i.e. buyer's and seller's fee) in your statistics?
Net to me.
.... and please allow me to add.... This is not to meant to imply any negativity toward GC. Ian is one of the good guys and it not his fault it didn't work out this time.
Even assuming that you never have a cash flow squeeze or other financial reversal which forces a sale, you have no control over what your heirs might do with the coin.
"A final afterthought........ I don't think it's possible for a person with any emotional attachment to their coins (a collector) to view them correctly as an investment vehicle. Buying low and selling high is mentally tough exercise in any asset class, but virtually impossible when you're mixed up in a hobby masquerading as an "investment" or an investment masquerading as a hobby."
I fully agree. 'Investor-collector' is an oxymoron----real investors will not fall in love with their coins, they focus on maximizing their ROIs.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
My impression is there are more people selling out, liquidating than new money coming in - an over supply of sellers especially at or below bid vs retail buyers coupled with anemic upward movement in Bid or BV.....this has been obvious for a long time in some of the items I have won easily below or around bid or or the lack of competition on some key coin I had targeted where my AS Bid was high enough to take it. Big ticket coins if big money people not there or bidding that nite well it's game over.
I agree with Bryce the market is soft. I do buy from GC to get material for my retail inventory and occasionally the 24 hour deals they offer which have no buyers fee. But many times somebody would outbid me in last few minutes. Probably should put my old TTR hat on where I would bid Cdn bid plus 5 pct ( calc juice so get it at that) in the last minute or two and possibly win the item as a higher bid they getting it around retail. Any kind of blowout I do generally prefer eBay as they have no buyers fee and I can pull the auction a day before auction close if bidding looks really bad. I wish could AS on GC as AS allows me change or cancel snipe up until a few minutes before close. A lot of these auctions seller gets whipsawed by juice both ways. GC is a top flight operation and I would consign to them if not for platforms I have. I did like the TTR buyback feature (bidding on own stuff run bids up, get good bids on it or take it back.
If forced liquidation (bad times, divorce, etc) I would do it piece meal so not all at once on a venue I had control over like eBay w Fixed, BIN / Make Offer, Auction. That way I could know what to expect and develop strategy.
One thing the market really seems hot for the Canada 1.25 oz silver Bison, fantastic coin in PCGS or NGC MS69 and MS70 which I had my retail cost plus markup on - I have basically sold out. One I had $30 in went for $60 recently and not had it long - crazy as numismatic material slow sales so far this year, no wonder people taking hits on it.
The market will turnaround when demand catches up with over supply.
I have no emotional attachment to coins except maximize ROI, favs marked up higher than others and no intent for them to pass to heirs / their intent is to finance other project / hobby activities.
GC is the bright star of numismatics. I got dinged by Heritage for $17 shipping on 3 tokens totaling $430, GC would be about $5. I agree also with Ian's contention in another thread that the market for several categories have strengthened. Even the lowly mid grade common Morgan has ticked up a bit.
You presume too much
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Markets are littered with investors that expected a guaranteed or even positive return. TDN is a player that does not get rocked by market fluctuations. Seemingly though, many who have posted on this thread are of much weaker hands...
What is he presuming, other than coin values are capable of dropping? I'd hardly say someone recognizing that obvious truth is being too presumptuous. That's especially true in this instance, where the much celebrated jump bid looks more and more like the proverbial bell being rung that signals the top of the market.
I read through this and didn't see a peep about commems.
I work in muni bonds, so I'm used to being involved in the sector that most don't talk about, or care about. Suits me fine.
Sorry for the drubbing -- probably in hindsight it might've been better to hold and wait for better days. I would say though, that mid-3 figure to low fours -- coins that cost $500-1200 per let's say -- are quite often not what I'd call "collector grade" stuff. I can count on three fingers the coins I've owned that come close to approaching that value per piece. The vast majority of my collection being worth far less than $100 per piece, and many, probably the majority, being worth sub-$50. Which I suppose only proves that one person's "collector stuff" is another person's caviar.
I think that accurately sums up my situation and very likely that of many others. Many times I've certainly wished for the ability to pay $1000's per coin; but were that the case, and I started seeing significant haircuts to those valuations, I'd pause too. Perhaps weighing the need to hold vs. the temptation to catch a falling knife, if I could convince distressed sellers to sell.
Well then, I must be SOL, as even getting to the $300 level ain't gonna happen for me in current circumstances. LOL!
Yes I think coins over $500 can be a tough sell - it's going to take the right buyer at right time. Furthermore the more picky buyers get the more expensive the coin. Sadly I see many trying sell big ticket coins where toning starting to really darken in holder - nobody wants these. AGE or AGB close to melt wb an exception PCGS MS69 of course in selling big ticket material.
In the $ 500 - $1200 range I would recommend Slabbed World Gold Issues. Coins like the Mexico $50 Peso Centanario are so much more scarcer than many US issues. These are higher than $1200 though. No sticker game either on world gold, a plus.
An eBay store is only $25 a month - I would try listing there with all the listing options available to get a feel for selling. I have had coins I listed with an opening bid of Bluesheet or say 10 pct back of greysheet not sell on auction then throw back in store at retail and then sell 2 weeks later at retail! It takes the right buyer at the right time in this market over saturated with sellers / supply exceeding demand.
Well here's something I can get behind -- I also love Indian cents in AU!
I dunno. Overall I've had some spectacular (for me) losses made up for by some spectacular (for me) gains that have offset each other over my years of collecting sportscards, comics, and coins. I've probably come out even or possibly a little ahead, but as far as investments go it's not been a good one. True "investment potential" in coins, I fear, even with all the risks that come along with it, comes with an entry fee far, far higher than I can hope to afford. Common coins will always be common coins, but they are what I can afford to collect and enjoy owning. Ah well.
@originalisbest
Sorry. By "collector grade" I only meant coins far down in the pop reports...... no condition rarities. There are better ways I could have said this. Actually.... the term isn't a very good one. Aren't we all collectors? For TDN, a 1794 dollar is collector grade at SP66.
If the goal is to have fun and enjoy the hobby, there are people doing this quite nicely at all levels. The only collection that a person should be ashamed of is the one that was assembled with no thought or care.
It's funny with all the talk of the market being soft the local show here was busier than it has been in a while over the weekend. I didn't have a table because of previous obligations, but attended both days. All of the dealers were talking about how busy the floor was and there seemed to be a lot of action both buying and selling.
I didn't really notice a downturn in prices either while trying to buy. Most dealers wanted all the money and the few deals I found were from dealers that I know well. It really all boils down to how bad you need the money I suppose. I recently sold off a large consignment that started out with BIN listings and was selling a bit at a time for decent to strong prices. After a couple months my consignor decided he needed his cash so asked me to turn all of the coins to no reserve auctions. Many went for fair prices, but there were some that I'm sure he took a bath on.
This forum is a small slice of the market, even if some big players post here. Look at the Dan Carr pieces. Here on the forum they are selling for strong prices whenever listed and people here who collect his stuff have no problem paying $100 for a new issue. Take some of his items to a show and you will spend half your day trying to explain why you are charging more than melt +.50c for a 1oz round.
My Ebay Store
I think that is because we have already accepted that the series has been in a coma since the 1990s (back before most had gray hair).
I made my first two purchases in a while yesterday on eBay, 2 varieties I needed. They went for decent money, not real bargains, and not too high, and they didn't get run up at the last second with snipes (so I guess I'm the greater fool?). Anyway, one had 20 bidders and the other 15, that doesn't sound like a dead market...maybe we're just negotiating.
I still buy on occasion... meaning whenever I feel like it. Most recently a few barber halves to upgrade a set that hadn't been touched in about 13 years. I noticed that the recent PCGS graded Morgan that I bought was about 55% of their posted value for that particular grade. I like the look of it and have wanted one for a while, so why not now? To me this is my hobby, and not my retirement portfolio. Markets go up and down, the sun rises in the east, keep on the sunny side, don't worry be happy.
There is a market for schlock , dreck and Preparation H. ( a substitute for virgin olive oil). It's not bad for everyone, or for those who like it. And there's a market for aluminum, steel, and brass. Heck, there's a market for paper, plastic and glue.
HE>I
Market shmarket!!! This is my hobby.
The end
No offense taken and I hope none given, as I certainly don't see you as the type of collector given to "putting on airs."
My thought is that majority of coins/grades are down. There are portions of the market that are strong, and that seems to be what most people are arguing over. But it seems clear that the bulk trend is down.
I am under the impression that there is a shortage of quality coins because people are less willing to sell at a loss.
I hope it drops further. I got priced out of the US coin market when I started collecting 5 years ago. If it drops another 50%, I might be able to start a US coin collection.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
I was at a good sized show this weekend. The dealers who have not lowered prices to current market prices looked lonely. The dealers who have lowered prices to current market prices and had good stuff had a mob around the table and you had to wait just to get a peek. Money was flying back and forth at those tables. I love these kind of dealers! Funny thing is that I go to this show every year and its always the same dealers having an amazing show selling soup to nuts if you know what I mean
I generally believe these types of dealers make money in any market - up, down or flat. They are really just trying to make a small margin on the buy sell spread and make it up with volume. They have super strong buy prices for the room and then have very fair sell prices. They move a ton of stuff and get offered some great coins because they are fair on both sides of the transaction.