Since I have my own doubts about platinum coins as collectibles I only dip my toe into the water with 'em --- pretty much the only coin I'm after is the low mintage king, the burnished '08 $50. That's the extent of my commitment there. Quietly, methodically, intermittently since then I've been purchasing them as they're available when the price is right. I now have several and when I quizzed a member of another forum I learned he's socked away as many as I have. I'm not of any great means and I doubt he is either and between us both we own close to 1% of the final mintage. Allowing for some of the attrition that likely occured, it could be more than that.
The reality is the 06-W Burnished plats started out like "gang busters". And, why shouldn't they have with their puny mintages. PCGS 70FS sets then hit $10,000 - $11,000 and based upon those mintages most knowledgeable modern guys understood why. New collectors were stepping into the market to buy these sets (like Raufus mentioned he did). I personally tried to make a mini-market in the sets ... I was paying $8,500 - $9,000 when the sets were trading at $10,000+. It wasn't just fools paying $8,500 for 70 sets (at least I like to think so). There was just no follow through ... new collectors stopped coming into the series by late-2007 and prices started drifting down. And, when the mint produced the amazing scarcities of 2008, it was "game over" for 2006 burnished plats (at least for the short-term and intermediate term). Of course, they have a bright future and I am "loaded up" with product including a few of those $8,500 PCGS 70 sets I was never able to sell and all the additional sets and coins I bought from collectors and dealers at nearly every price level as the sets went down, down, down (including some at melt in 2008!)
I may end up making a lot of money if these coins do great in the future, but for now I can only report that they have been average to below average 6 year old moderns thus far. Even today ... 6 years later, the sets often trade less than roughly a 50% premium to original mint issue price, while the 2006-W burnished gold eagles with mintages 6x higher (repeat ... 6x higher) trade at 300%-400% premiums to original mint issue price. Luckily, I bought some of those as well.
As always, just my 2 cents
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
So Wondercoin, I may have asked you this before, but what IS the allure of the 2006-w burnished gold eagles? I sold my raw set at a nice profit a few years ago and, even at the time, was a bit mystified why the set was as strong as it is. Has this changed, and if not, why not?
Gritsman: As I said long ago ... DEMAND generally drives higher prices. It's as simple as this ...
There has been strong demand for the burnished gold product (and outside the typical registry collector base many of us are involved in) since its inception and continuing for most of the past (6) years. On the flip side, there has been weak demand for the burnished platinum coins for the majority of the past (6) years now. While there are a number of reasons why, such has been the case.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
What I meant to ask is WHY is there such demand for these burnished gold pieces. Is it because people are including them in their gold eagle sets, or do you think these burnished gold w coins have their own separate group of admirers?
Gritsman - Everyone has an opinion ... right? Some of the "best and the brightest" modern minds out there selected those gold burnished coins as among their favorite modern coin picks six years ago. You ask "WHY". Look... I am not going to speak for the dealers who selected these as their top picks, but I can give one interesting comp. Look what 1991 $25 MS Gold Eagles still sell for today with their much higher 24,000 mintage and you tell me WHY, for example, 2006-W examples might not have the potential down the road to exceed the value of 1991 pieces in the same series?
2 more cents worth.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Gritsman - Everyone has an opinion ... right? Some of the "best and the brightest" modern minds out there selected those gold burnished coins as among their favorite modern coin picks six years ago. You ask "WHY". Look... I am not going to speak for the dealers who selected these as their top picks, but I can give one interesting comp. Look what 1991 $25 MS Gold Eagles still sell for today with their much higher 24,000 mintage and you tell me WHY, for example, 2006-W examples might not have the potential down the road to exceed the value of 1991 pieces in the same series?
2 more cents worth.
Wondercoin >>
I'd guess that in the minds of collectors dates are much more significant holes in a set than are mintmarks, especially if the mintmark is a 'W'. Also because of they way they were issued & packaged the '91's have likely suffered much more attrition than burnished eagles.
<< <i>Gritsman - Everyone has an opinion ... right? Some of the "best and the brightest" modern minds out there selected those gold burnished coins as among their favorite modern coin picks six years ago. You ask "WHY". Look... I am not going to speak for the dealers who selected these as their top picks, but I can give one interesting comp. Look what 1991 $25 MS Gold Eagles still sell for today with their much higher 24,000 mintage and you tell me WHY, for example, 2006-W examples might not have the potential down the road to exceed the value of 1991 pieces in the same series?
2 more cents worth.
Wondercoin >>
I'd guess that in the minds of collectors dates are much more significant holes in a set than are mintmarks, especially if the mintmark is a 'W'. Also because of they way they were issued & packaged the '91's have likely suffered much more attrition than burnished eagles. >>
All fair comments. I've thought about the values of the '91s and the 06-w's quite a bit, and can't help thinking their high prices reflect the fact that the 1/2-ounce unc gold eagle series is actually collected by date by quite a few people. I don't hear many people talking about it, but as you said 92vette, those holes gotta get filled. As strong as the silver eagle base is, it seems to me that there must be a lot of quiet gold eagle collectors out there as well. Ditto for the 1/4-ounce gold eagles as well.
Speaking of new Eagle Issues....aren't the Palladium coins required to be struck this year as well? I thought they have to be minted in the year that study recommendations were to be completed (2012).
As somebody who about to finish assembling $25 Plat Proof + Burnished "W" set in PCGS PR/MS70 with only 2004-W in PR69 I observed the following:
- $25 Plats are still in quite demand and are very liquid
- Keys in top grades are not so easy or expensive to find and never sells close to melt, they at least sell 50% + over melt
- There are only around one hundred PR70 sets possible and they just simply look great
- The 15 coin set (12 Proof + 3 "W" burnished) cost me approx $10K to assemble over the last 4 years and it 3 3/4 oz of bullion with $5K bullion value. It only would need Pt spot to touble to break even at the bullion cost.
- Even the most common ones draw enough interest on Ebay
- In MY OPINION owning Platinum PM in Top grade at 50-100% over melt with under 3K mintages is safer than owning silver 2011 A25 set at 10X over silver melt. I sold my last 2011 Anniversary set at $1500 to buy 1997-W and 1998-W Proof PR70 just to own 1/2 oz of Plat for that money instead of 5 oz of Silver
<< <i>Gritsman: As I said long ago ... DEMAND generally drives higher prices. It's as simple as this ...
There has been strong demand for the burnished gold product (and outside the typical registry collector base many of us are involved in) since its inception and continuing for most of the past (6) years. On the flip side, there has been weak demand for the burnished platinum coins for the majority of the past (6) years now. While there are a number of reasons why, such has been the case.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin. >>
Collector base much larger for the gold, thus much more demand over platinum.
<< <i>As somebody who about to finish assembling $25 Plat Proof + Burnished "W" set in PCGS PR/MS70 with only 2004-W in PR69 I observed the following:
- $25 Plats are still in quite demand and are very liquid
- Keys in top grades are not so easy or expensive to find and never sells close to melt, they at least sell 50% + over melt
- There are only around one hundred PR70 sets possible and they just simply look great
- The 15 coin set (12 Proof + 3 "W" burnished) cost me approx $10K to assemble over the last 4 years and it 3 3/4 oz of bullion with $5K bullion value. It only would need Pt spot to touble to break even at the bullion cost.
- Even the most common ones draw enough interest on Ebay
- In MY OPINION owning Platinum PM in Top grade at 50-100% over melt with under 3K mintages is safer than owning silver 2011 A25 set at 10X over silver melt. I sold my last 2011 Anniversary set at $1500 to buy 1997-W and 1998-W Proof PR70 just to own 1/2 oz of Plat for that money instead of 5 oz of Silver
IMHO the demand for $25 proof plats does not currently seem to be great. Last night a 1998W PR70DC, with the smallest pop of 84 in 70DC, went for only $585 on ebay. Granted the 1998W has a mintage close to 15,000 but at one and a half times melt for the rarest 70 this appears to be a pretty much ignored set to date.
Another possible reason why the 2006-08W burnished plats are not doing as well as their gold counterparts (drum roll):
*The changing reverses.*
It seemed like a good idea at the time, but the decision to adopt the proof reverses rather than the bullion reverses likely hurt long-term demand for the coins. It disrupted the design consistency of the "uncirculated" plats and made it easier to assign the burnished plats to their own niche category, where they languish to this day. By contrast, the burnished "W" gold eagles have the same design as their bullion counterparts, making them more appropriate to collect together to form a consistent set.
Artistic merits aside, I suspect that if the burnished plats had been minted with the bullion reverses, they would be much more in demand today.
I do not believe the relative lack in interest in the burnished W platinums is related to reverse design.
I expect there are more dedicated proof platinum collectors than collectors of the bullion series and the proof collectors will like the changing reverses..
I do not believe the relative lack in interest in the burnished W platinums is related to reverse design.
I expect there are more dedicated proof platinum collectors than collectors of the bullion series and the proof collectors will like the changing reverses.. >>
Very interesting idea, Overdate--and counter-argument 2many. It does seem that for whatever reason, the burnished plats have been thrown into their own little exile. I do agree that very few people are interested in the bullion plats. I, personally, just don't care for their appearance, so maybe that's part of the problem. OTOH, I don't naturally put the burnished plats with my proof plat collection. These may just end up being historical oddities, with depressed prices to reflect their isolation. Or the opposite, they end up as very sought-after, unique issues. Probably somewhere in between.
To steal a line from a movie......The 4 burnished W platinum coins were "A bridge too far". (As were the 4 burnished W gold eagles and fractional buffalos)
The platinum coins had a limited collector base to start with as evidenced by the gradually declining mintages of the proof coins from 1997-2005.
The dramatic rise in precious metal prices from 2000 thru 2008 made it difficult enough to collect any precious metal based series.
When the mint added the platinum burnished W 4 coin series in 2006 it splintered or at least streched the collector base to its limits resulting in the final historically low 2008 sales numbers.
Same thing happened with the multiple gold based coins....
At that point it was no longer profitable for mint to continue any series where expected sales were below 5,000-10,000 resulting in the discontinuation of multiple coin offerings and the resulting rarities from 2008.
I feel sure the mint would drop the First Spouse coins if they could but they are mandated by law so even if produced at a loss that series continues.
Sorry to dredge up just a bit, but I think the '91 unc. 1/2 gold has much better dispersion and was not issued to collectors/flippers. Generally this will make its mintage IMO an "apples and oranges" proposition when pitted against the mintages of the "W" uncs. etc.
One slight risk is that it is possible, almost in a newer version of the European bank hoards of classical gold that more may show up on the market...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< I do not believe the relative lack in interest in the burnished W platinums is related to reverse design. >>
Design consistency, both obverse and reverse, is a major factor in what constitutes a "set", in the minds of many collectors. It is why, for example, most collectors consider Lincoln wheat and Memorial cents to be separate and distinct sets.
The same applies to uncirculated Platinum Eagles. On the one hand, the no-mintmark bullion coins share a consistent reverse design. On the other hand, the 2006-08 burnished "W" mintmark coins have changing reverses each year. This break in design consistency leads more collectors to view them as a separate series. It therefore reduces demand from collectors who otherwise would have included them in their "standard reverse" uncirculated sets.
<< I expect there are more dedicated proof platinum collectors than collectors of the bullion series and the proof collectors will like the changing reverses. >>
True, but the proof series is internally consistent with a reverse that has changed each year since the beginning of the series. The uncirculated series had a consistent design each year until 2006, when all of a sudden a changing reverse was added to the mix (and this only for the "W" mintmarked versions, while the bullion version continued with the original reverse design). So the internal consistency of the uncirculated set was undermined, while the internal consistency of the proof series was maintained.
In terms of generating collector demand, the Mint lost much and gained nothing by borrowing the proof designs for the reverse of the burnished plats. In addition to undermining the design consistency of "uncirculated" plats, this decision diluted the uniqueness of the proof reverses by extending their design to coins of less aesthetic value.
As a result, the burnished plats have achieved "orphan" status, with their only claim to fame being their very low mintages. As the last few years have shown, low mintage alone is not enough to make the burnished plats desirable to the collector community at large.
I was just looking at The Mint product schedule. I see that the First Spouse coins will be issued twice for the same spouse if the Pres. served two terms. I didn't know that the series was set up this way. This seems crazy to me as it's the same spouse.
I wonder how low some of these 19th century second terms coins will go.
Raufus, I sure that is only for Grover Cleveland. He served 2 non-consecutive terms. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson and Grant all served 2 terms and only got 1 coin each
Sales so far for Proof Gold Eagle. How comes the sales is soooooooo slow? Is it one of the lowest pace in recent years? And are we gonna have some new keys this year?
2012 AMERICAN EAGLE GOLD PROOF COINS One ounce ----------4,459 One-half ounce------1,114 One-quarter ounce--1,347 One-tenth ounce----4,436 Four-coin set--------2,624
On the topic of 1 ounce platinum proof and burnished coins I find some comfort in the US Mints continuing sales of over 10,000 per year.
While some may be purchased as a play on bullion the same thing can be applied to all the prior years MS/PR69 or less coins, often for a lower premium over spot.
For those who bought the recent 1 ounce coins out of numismatic interest there will be some who will want to expand their collections to prior years 1 ounce coins and fractionals.
The most encouraging thing is the ability of the U.S. Mint to sell 14,400+ of the 1 ounce 2011 coins................that has to have some halo effect on earlier issues.
<< <i>Sales so far for Proof Gold Eagle. How comes the sales is soooooooo slow? Is it one of the lowest pace in recent years? And are we gonna have some new keys this year?
2012 AMERICAN EAGLE GOLD PROOF COINS One ounce ----------4,459 One-half ounce------1,114 One-quarter ounce--1,347 One-tenth ounce----4,436 Four-coin set--------2,624 >>
At that rate they may be on sale to 2015
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
2012 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin"
Who is buying? (I'm in for two).
Any predictions for this issue coming in lower than the 2011 W which is the current low mintage king? >>
sales over 10K >>
Current Mint policy is to strike to anticipated demand based on previous sales and metals price. Assuming that the Mint anticipated significantly higher demand than last year is a leap because at the end of the sales cycle they sold out as a trickel. If the 2011W gold mintage was a result of a high scrap rate on say 12,000 planchets struck then the 2012W will likely see higher numbers than 2011W. If the 2011W mintage was intentional then that range may show up again.
2012 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin"
Who is buying? (I'm in for two).
Any predictions for this issue coming in lower than the 2011 W which is the current low mintage king? >>
sales over 10K >>
Current Mint policy is to strike to anticipated demand based on previous sales and metals price. Assuming that the Mint anticipated significantly higher demand than last year is a leap because at the end of the sales cycle they sold out as a trickel. If the 2011W gold mintage was a result of a high scrap rate on say 12,000 planchets struck then the 2012W will likely see higher numbers than 2011W. If the 2011W mintage was intentional then that range may show up again. >>
It was a sell out if you can call it that. They sold all they had but thats about all you can say for it. It did not give the Mint the impression that their numbers were well short of market demand. Like I said if you have a bunch of them hope that the 8 grand mintage was the result of high scrap rates that created a mintage depression. The 8-9 grand number could be a new demand estimate at these high gold prices.
I dont think its "Spousification" of anything. The FS coins have structural, cohesion and thematic problems created by the original legislation. The Gold Eagles do not have the same issues to contend with but its hard to sell high volumes of collector coins at well over melt ($1800 each). Its a big expensive denominational $50 gold set and the cost of all the gold is suppressing sales.
No need to strike a bunch more coins than the market will pull.
What are the implications for these series IF and I do mean IF the price of gold, platinum, and silver continue to drop. They will become more affordable but will there be a corresponding surge in interest? And what about us folks who got in early but at a higher price? Are we stuck or will the demand be such that the prices for the older won't decline as rapidly as the PM's? Just some questions bouncing around my skull this weekend as I was playing with a part of my collection. Thoughts, opinions, conjecture, or plain old WAG's all welcome to respond
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the most common issues will rise and fall in tandem with bullion prices, while pricing of the lower mintage issues will not see meaningful price changes as a result of movements in precious metals unless if the bottom were to fall out or the underlying metal was to skyrocket.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I tend to disagree with the other Eric on this - I think there is a "new" outtake on mint issues. Although I can not prove it in general terms, collectors that I know have almost thrown in the towel on there being so many issues with these "specimens" being perfect examples. These are all NCLT issues, just as the spouse/hag coins are and are all struck by the mint for special purposes to a specific group of buyers. IMO, what has especially changed over the last 5 or so years is that there are very few collectors of any of the mint issues besides the yearly mint and proof sets with the odd silver proof eagle.
Micro variations such as a mint added mark or finish is getting a lot less play, and interest in some of these as reflected by sales, prices, interests, chat discussions, etc. that seem to have fallen off (see the satin unc. plat "W" coins that we like to point to or even the sacrosanct 2008 buff. fractionals that were struck for only the 2008 year). The latest issues of this type are seized upon by our flipper friends and then are tossed back and forth and about until the last dollar is wrung out, complete with artificial separation by "First Strike" or "Early Release", or hyper grade micro differences to subdivide the original mint offering to "create" rarity. IMO, I see the role of flippers as dominant and that there are the armchair guesses/intrepretations (oops, sp?) of mintages that drive "demand". A perfect example is the crazy surge in orders for the two coin SF set just released, but will likely happen if the 2012 specimen W gold coin looks to be a low mintage - this will only be slackened if the mint strikes only a finite number of the coins and pulls the offering.
To reiterate, I think the demand demographic is changing, and it is what it is. For diehard collectors there is perhaps a disillusion setting in is really what I am suggesting...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I've always believed that if the Mint really wanted to grow the collector base they would be more consistant, with many fewer offerings, over a longer period of time and let demand have its way with the market.
Remonetizing gold and silver, and having fiscally responsible government would do quite a bit to repair the damage that's occurred over the past 45 years.
**pop**
Was I dreaming, or something?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I totally agree with 7jaguars. The collecting demographic IS changing, and only exceptional issues will carry a premium in the long run. And by exceptional, I mean those with beautiful design AND historic or social significance. Recent Mint examples include the fractional buffs and UHRs, perhaps some of the RP eagles. It's highly unlikely that a run-of-the-mill First Spouse will attract any interest ten years from now, even if it has a mintage of 3,000 and is papered in every label imaginable.
But if you like 'em, why not enjoy them? Personally, I'm excited about the new silver eagle set, even though I don't expect it'll be worth much over melt. These are beautiful coins, and I also agree with jmski that the Mint should stick with some consistent series with few "specials" mixed in.
I'll add that I used to think the Perth Mint and Canadian Mint were nuts to put out all these crazy colorized coins and so forth. I'm coming around to thinking that the U.S. Mint might as well try some of these things, too. Some of these issues are a lot of fun, and isn't that supposed to be what the hobby is about?
Comments
The 08-W unc & proof where purchased when platinum was high as can be..... Also purchased a 08 bullion $10 platinum eagle early in the year.....
These have not skyrocketed in value.
So what, I have these coins and I am glad I have these coins.... Why, because I think they are a neat little collection that I enjoy having.....
I am not selling them for anything (if I could pay off my house I think I might have to sell them) so I don't really care of these current value.....
Why is everything have to skyrocket in value for it to be a solid collectable?
I may end up making a lot of money if these coins do great in the future, but for now I can only report that they have been average to below average 6 year old moderns thus far. Even today ... 6 years later, the sets often trade less than roughly a 50% premium to original mint issue price, while the 2006-W burnished gold eagles with mintages 6x higher (repeat ... 6x higher) trade at 300%-400% premiums to original mint issue price. Luckily, I bought some of those as well.
As always, just my 2 cents
Wondercoin
I truely wish you well on those but seems like a lot to tie up for a long time.
Of course there just may be a wonderful world on the other side.
There has been strong demand for the burnished gold product (and outside the typical registry collector base many of us are involved in) since its inception and continuing for most of the past (6) years. On the flip side, there has been weak demand for the burnished platinum coins for the majority of the past (6) years now. While there are a number of reasons why, such has been the case.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
What I meant to ask is WHY is there such demand for these burnished gold pieces. Is it because people are including them in their gold eagle sets, or do you think these burnished gold w coins have their own separate group of admirers?
You have two more cents on ya? Thanks!
2 more cents worth.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Gritsman - Everyone has an opinion ... right? Some of the "best and the brightest" modern minds out there selected those gold burnished coins as among their favorite modern coin picks six years ago. You ask "WHY". Look... I am not going to speak for the dealers who selected these as their top picks, but I can give one interesting comp. Look what 1991 $25 MS Gold Eagles still sell for today with their much higher 24,000 mintage and you tell me WHY, for example, 2006-W examples might not have the potential down the road to exceed the value of 1991 pieces in the same series?
2 more cents worth.
Wondercoin >>
I'd guess that in the minds of collectors dates are much more significant holes in a set than are mintmarks, especially if the mintmark is a 'W'. Also because of they way they were issued & packaged the '91's have likely suffered much more attrition than burnished eagles.
<< <i>
<< <i>Gritsman - Everyone has an opinion ... right? Some of the "best and the brightest" modern minds out there selected those gold burnished coins as among their favorite modern coin picks six years ago. You ask "WHY". Look... I am not going to speak for the dealers who selected these as their top picks, but I can give one interesting comp. Look what 1991 $25 MS Gold Eagles still sell for today with their much higher 24,000 mintage and you tell me WHY, for example, 2006-W examples might not have the potential down the road to exceed the value of 1991 pieces in the same series?
2 more cents worth.
Wondercoin >>
I'd guess that in the minds of collectors dates are much more significant holes in a set than are mintmarks, especially if the mintmark is a 'W'. Also because of they way they were issued & packaged the '91's have likely suffered much more attrition than burnished eagles. >>
All fair comments. I've thought about the values of the '91s and the 06-w's quite a bit, and can't help thinking their high prices reflect the fact that the 1/2-ounce unc gold eagle series is actually collected by date by quite a few people. I don't hear many people talking about it, but as you said 92vette, those holes gotta get filled. As strong as the silver eagle base is, it seems to me that there must be a lot of quiet gold eagle collectors out there as well. Ditto for the 1/4-ounce gold eagles as well.
- $25 Plats are still in quite demand and are very liquid
- Keys in top grades are not so easy or expensive to find and never sells close to melt, they at least sell 50% + over melt
- There are only around one hundred PR70 sets possible and they just simply look great
- The 15 coin set (12 Proof + 3 "W" burnished) cost me approx $10K to assemble over the last 4 years and it 3 3/4 oz of bullion with $5K bullion value. It only would need Pt spot to touble to break even at the bullion cost.
- Even the most common ones draw enough interest on Ebay
- In MY OPINION owning Platinum PM in Top grade at 50-100% over melt with under 3K mintages is safer than owning silver 2011 A25 set at 10X over silver melt.
I sold my last 2011 Anniversary set at $1500 to buy 1997-W and 1998-W Proof PR70 just to own 1/2 oz of Plat for that money instead of 5 oz of Silver
PCGS No. Item Denom Grade Pop Pop Highe
AV $25 Proof Plats Set
-----------------------------
9753 1997-W $25 PR70DC 99 0
99766 1998-W $25 PR70DC 84 0
99774 1999-W $25 PR70DC 157 0
99780 2000-W $25 PR70DC 267 0
99787 2001-W $25 PR70DC 127 0
99795 2002-W $25 PR70DC 183 0
921101 2003-W $25 PR70DC 133 0
921105 2004-W $25 PR69DC 432 101
921109 2005-W $25 PR70DC 106 0
921117 2006-W $25 PR70DC 198 0
149575 2007-W $25 PR70DC 153 0
393088 2008-W $25 PR70DC 206 0
21126 2006-W $25 MS70 112 0
150435 2007-W $25 MS70 168 0
393080 2008-W $25 MS70 206 0
<< <i>Gritsman: As I said long ago ... DEMAND generally drives higher prices. It's as simple as this ...
There has been strong demand for the burnished gold product (and outside the typical registry collector base many of us are involved in) since its inception and continuing for most of the past (6) years. On the flip side, there has been weak demand for the burnished platinum coins for the majority of the past (6) years now. While there are a number of reasons why, such has been the case.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin. >>
Collector base much larger for the gold, thus much more demand over platinum.
Economic headlines the mainstream media are hiding from you.
<< <i>As somebody who about to finish assembling $25 Plat Proof + Burnished "W" set in PCGS PR/MS70 with only 2004-W in PR69 I observed the following:
- $25 Plats are still in quite demand and are very liquid
- Keys in top grades are not so easy or expensive to find and never sells close to melt, they at least sell 50% + over melt
- There are only around one hundred PR70 sets possible and they just simply look great
- The 15 coin set (12 Proof + 3 "W" burnished) cost me approx $10K to assemble over the last 4 years and it 3 3/4 oz of bullion with $5K bullion value. It only would need Pt spot to touble to break even at the bullion cost.
- Even the most common ones draw enough interest on Ebay
- In MY OPINION owning Platinum PM in Top grade at 50-100% over melt with under 3K mintages is safer than owning silver 2011 A25 set at 10X over silver melt.
I sold my last 2011 Anniversary set at $1500 to buy 1997-W and 1998-W Proof PR70 just to own 1/2 oz of Plat for that money instead of 5 oz of Silver
PCGS No. Item Denom Grade Pop Pop Highe
AV $25 Proof Plats Set
-----------------------------
9753 1997-W $25 PR70DC 99 0
99766 1998-W $25 PR70DC 84 0
99774 1999-W $25 PR70DC 157 0
99780 2000-W $25 PR70DC 267 0
99787 2001-W $25 PR70DC 127 0
99795 2002-W $25 PR70DC 183 0
921101 2003-W $25 PR70DC 133 0
921105 2004-W $25 PR69DC 432 101
921109 2005-W $25 PR70DC 106 0
921117 2006-W $25 PR70DC 198 0
149575 2007-W $25 PR70DC 153 0
393088 2008-W $25 PR70DC 206 0
21126 2006-W $25 MS70 112 0
150435 2007-W $25 MS70 168 0
393080 2008-W $25 MS70 206 0 >>
VERY NICE SET!
*The changing reverses.*
It seemed like a good idea at the time, but the decision to adopt the proof reverses rather than the bullion reverses likely hurt long-term demand for the coins. It disrupted the design consistency of the "uncirculated" plats and made it easier to assign the burnished plats to their own niche category, where they languish to this day. By contrast, the burnished "W" gold eagles have the same design as their bullion counterparts, making them more appropriate to collect together to form a consistent set.
Artistic merits aside, I suspect that if the burnished plats had been minted with the bullion reverses, they would be much more in demand today.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I do not believe the relative lack in interest in the burnished W platinums is related to reverse design.
I expect there are more dedicated proof platinum collectors than collectors of the bullion series and the proof collectors will like the changing reverses..
<< <i>I disagree.
I do not believe the relative lack in interest in the burnished W platinums is related to reverse design.
I expect there are more dedicated proof platinum collectors than collectors of the bullion series and the proof collectors will like the changing reverses.. >>
Very interesting idea, Overdate--and counter-argument 2many. It does seem that for whatever reason, the burnished plats have been thrown into their own little exile. I do agree that very few people are interested in the bullion plats. I, personally, just don't care for their appearance, so maybe that's part of the problem. OTOH, I don't naturally put the burnished plats with my proof plat collection. These may just end up being historical oddities, with depressed prices to reflect their isolation. Or the opposite, they end up as very sought-after, unique issues. Probably somewhere in between.
(As were the 4 burnished W gold eagles and fractional buffalos)
The platinum coins had a limited collector base to start with as evidenced by the gradually declining mintages of the proof coins from 1997-2005.
The dramatic rise in precious metal prices from 2000 thru 2008 made it difficult enough to collect any precious metal based series.
When the mint added the platinum burnished W 4 coin series in 2006 it splintered or at least streched the collector base to its limits resulting in the final historically low 2008 sales numbers.
Same thing happened with the multiple gold based coins....
At that point it was no longer profitable for mint to continue any series where expected sales were below 5,000-10,000 resulting in the discontinuation of multiple coin offerings and the resulting rarities from 2008.
I feel sure the mint would drop the First Spouse coins if they could but they are mandated by law so even if produced at a loss that series continues.
One slight risk is that it is possible, almost in a newer version of the European bank hoards of classical gold that more may show up on the market...
Well, just Love coins, period.
Design consistency, both obverse and reverse, is a major factor in what constitutes a "set", in the minds of many collectors. It is why, for example, most collectors consider Lincoln wheat and Memorial cents to be separate and distinct sets.
The same applies to uncirculated Platinum Eagles. On the one hand, the no-mintmark bullion coins share a consistent reverse design. On the other hand, the 2006-08 burnished "W" mintmark coins have changing reverses each year. This break in design consistency leads more collectors to view them as a separate series. It therefore reduces demand from collectors who otherwise would have included them in their "standard reverse" uncirculated sets.
<< I expect there are more dedicated proof platinum collectors than collectors of the bullion series and the proof collectors will like the changing reverses. >>
True, but the proof series is internally consistent with a reverse that has changed each year since the beginning of the series. The uncirculated series had a consistent design each year until 2006, when all of a sudden a changing reverse was added to the mix (and this only for the "W" mintmarked versions, while the bullion version continued with the original reverse design). So the internal consistency of the uncirculated set was undermined, while the internal consistency of the proof series was maintained.
In terms of generating collector demand, the Mint lost much and gained nothing by borrowing the proof designs for the reverse of the burnished plats. In addition to undermining the design consistency of "uncirculated" plats, this decision diluted the uniqueness of the proof reverses by extending their design to coins of less aesthetic value.
As a result, the burnished plats have achieved "orphan" status, with their only claim to fame being their very low mintages. As the last few years have shown, low mintage alone is not enough to make the burnished plats desirable to the collector community at large.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I wonder how low some of these 19th century second terms coins will go.
I sure that is only for Grover Cleveland. He served 2 non-consecutive terms.
Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson and Grant all served 2 terms and only got 1 coin each
JaLP
"06/28/2012
2012 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin"
Who is buying? (I'm in for two).
Any predictions for this issue coming in lower than the 2011 W which is the current low mintage king?
Is it one of the lowest pace in recent years? And are we gonna have some new keys this year?
2012 AMERICAN EAGLE GOLD PROOF COINS
One ounce ----------4,459
One-half ounce------1,114
One-quarter ounce--1,347
One-tenth ounce----4,436
Four-coin set--------2,624
While some may be purchased as a play on bullion the same thing can be applied to all the prior years MS/PR69 or less coins, often for a lower premium over spot.
For those who bought the recent 1 ounce coins out of numismatic interest there will be some who will want to expand their collections to prior years 1 ounce coins and fractionals.
The most encouraging thing is the ability of the U.S. Mint to sell 14,400+ of the 1 ounce 2011 coins................that has to have some halo effect on earlier issues.
<< <i>From the U.S. Mint product schedule:
"06/28/2012
2012 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin"
Who is buying? (I'm in for two).
Any predictions for this issue coming in lower than the 2011 W which is the current low mintage king? >>
sales over 10K
Economic headlines the mainstream media are hiding from you.
<< <i>Sales so far for Proof Gold Eagle. How comes the sales is soooooooo slow?
Is it one of the lowest pace in recent years? And are we gonna have some new keys this year?
2012 AMERICAN EAGLE GOLD PROOF COINS
One ounce ----------4,459
One-half ounce------1,114
One-quarter ounce--1,347
One-tenth ounce----4,436
Four-coin set--------2,624 >>
At that rate they may be on sale to 2015
<< <i>
<< <i>From the U.S. Mint product schedule:
"06/28/2012
2012 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin"
Who is buying? (I'm in for two).
Any predictions for this issue coming in lower than the 2011 W which is the current low mintage king? >>
sales over 10K >>
Current Mint policy is to strike to anticipated demand based on previous sales and metals price. Assuming that the Mint anticipated significantly higher demand than last year is a leap because at the end of the sales cycle they sold out as a trickel. If the 2011W gold mintage was a result of a high scrap rate on say 12,000 planchets struck then the 2012W will likely see higher numbers than 2011W. If the 2011W mintage was intentional then that range may show up again.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>From the U.S. Mint product schedule:
"06/28/2012
2012 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin"
Who is buying? (I'm in for two).
Any predictions for this issue coming in lower than the 2011 W which is the current low mintage king? >>
sales over 10K >>
Current Mint policy is to strike to anticipated demand based on previous sales and metals price. Assuming that the Mint anticipated significantly higher demand than last year is a leap because at the end of the sales cycle they sold out as a trickel. If the 2011W gold mintage was a result of a high scrap rate on say 12,000 planchets struck then the 2012W will likely see higher numbers than 2011W. If the 2011W mintage was intentional then that range may show up again. >>
Thanks, as always, for your insight!
Was the 2011W a sellout? I forget.
I knew it would happen.
Is this the Spousification of the Eagle Series? The "new normal" at the Mint?
No need to strike a bunch more coins than the market will pull.
Eric
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>If the 2011W mintage was intentional then that range may show up again.
Was the 2011W a sellout? I forget. >>
yes, very late in the game. Low mintage due to very expensive spot prices throughout most of the offering.
2012 W should see higher sales because of lower spot and because of low mintage hopes.
Economic headlines the mainstream media are hiding from you.
The report from the consultant study group was supposed to come out shortly after July 3rd. Are we there yet?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Palladium UHR
The report from the consultant study group was supposed to come out shortly after July 3rd. Are we there yet? >>
We should all know that "shortly" in govenmentspeak could mean anything but usally not soon.
Best.
Micro variations such as a mint added mark or finish is getting a lot less play, and interest in some of these as reflected by sales, prices, interests, chat discussions, etc. that seem to have fallen off (see the satin unc. plat "W" coins that we like to point to or even the sacrosanct 2008 buff. fractionals that were struck for only the 2008 year). The latest issues of this type are seized upon by our flipper friends and then are tossed back and forth and about until the last dollar is wrung out, complete with artificial separation by "First Strike" or "Early Release", or hyper grade micro differences to subdivide the original mint offering to "create" rarity. IMO, I see the role of flippers as dominant and that there are the armchair guesses/intrepretations (oops, sp?) of mintages that drive "demand". A perfect example is the crazy surge in orders for the two coin SF set just released, but will likely happen if the 2012 specimen W gold coin looks to be a low mintage - this will only be slackened if the mint strikes only a finite number of the coins and pulls the offering.
To reiterate, I think the demand demographic is changing, and it is what it is. For diehard collectors there is perhaps a disillusion setting in is really what I am suggesting...
Well, just Love coins, period.
Watch and wait for major spikes in spot prices (5%+) and strike before mint reprices product.
Moves of this magnitude are rare and infrequent but they do occur.
You won't be able to eliminate the premium over spot but you can reduce it stack the odds a little more in your favor by being patient and nimble.
<< <i>IMO if you are determined to going to buy US Mint gold and platinum based produts the only way to do it is to be patient and nimble.
Watch and wait for major spikes in spot prices (5%+) and strike before mint reprices product.
Moves of this magnitude are rare and infrequent but they do occur.
You won't be able to eliminate the premium over spot but you can reduce it stack the odds a little more in your favor by being patient and nimble. >>
The thing about "spikes" is that they go down about as fast as they go up-sometimes faster.
Remonetizing gold and silver, and having fiscally responsible government would do quite a bit to repair the damage that's occurred over the past 45 years.
**pop**
Was I dreaming, or something?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>IMO if you are determined to going to buy US Mint gold and platinum based produts the only way to do it is to be patient and nimble.
Watch and wait for major spikes in spot prices (5%+) and strike before mint reprices product.
Moves of this magnitude are rare and infrequent but they do occur.
You won't be able to eliminate the premium over spot but you can reduce it stack the odds a little more in your favor by being patient and nimble. >>
The thing about "spikes" is that they go down about as fast as they go up-sometimes faster. >>
...........................................................................................................................................................................................................
True but on average it pays to buy when premium over spot is as thin as possible.
But if you like 'em, why not enjoy them? Personally, I'm excited about the new silver eagle set, even though I don't expect it'll be worth much over melt. These are beautiful coins, and I also agree with jmski that the Mint should stick with some consistent series with few "specials" mixed in.
I'll add that I used to think the Perth Mint and Canadian Mint were nuts to put out all these crazy colorized coins and so forth. I'm coming around to thinking that the U.S. Mint might as well try some of these things, too. Some of these issues are a lot of fun, and isn't that supposed to be what the hobby is about?