Home U.S. Coin Forum

Hansen watch.

1484951535490

Comments

  • JBatDavidLawrenceJBatDavidLawrence Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    I personally grade it 65+ (beat up reverse). I'd sell it as a 66+ and I'll bet it is in a 67 slab or 67+.

    Any offers?????

    John Brush
    President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
    email: John@davidlawrence.com
    2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All coins are net graded. When the picture seems nicer than the grade, more often than not it’s the picture in error

  • ilikemonstersilikemonsters Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 7:01PM

    I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 7:16PM

    @ilikemonsters said:
    I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.

    You win the guess the grade award. The spot left of the eagle is just a scruffy patch. No problem there. The problem is the prefect cheek. For 1933 Eagles, it is too prefect. There is some old microscopic tooling that can not be seen in the picture or by eye. Otherwise, I think everyone can agree the coin is amazing.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • lavalava Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭

    66+

    I brake for ear bars.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .
    .> @Currin said:

    @ilikemonsters said:
    I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.

    You win the guess the grade award. The spot left of the eagle is just a scruffy patch. No problem there. The problem is the prefect cheek. For 1933 Eagles, it is too prefect. There is some old microscopic tooling that can not be seen in the picture or by eye. Otherwise, I think everyone can agree the coin is amazing.

    So it is a filler I assume.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019 1:01AM

    @Currin said:
    This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks

    Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,271 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    lemmee see here....he passes on an 1827 original quarter at the ANA show but drops nearly the same amount on a tooled coin? Color me confused...

    He also let the 1841 quarter eagle slip away. I’m sure he had a reason, but still surprising.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,271 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    .
    .> @Currin said:

    @ilikemonsters said:
    I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.

    You win the guess the grade award. The spot left of the eagle is just a scruffy patch. No problem there. The problem is the prefect cheek. For 1933 Eagles, it is too prefect. There is some old microscopic tooling that can not be seen in the picture or by eye. Otherwise, I think everyone can agree the coin is amazing.

    So it is a filler I assume.

    I would assume nothing, but I’d guess it’s going to be sent to Corum and turned into a watch.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin said:
    This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks

    MS65?

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see it's tooled... Interesting.

  • AotearoaAotearoa Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit.

    There are a lot of EACers - myself included - who would agree with that comment.

    Smitten with DBLCs.

  • KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit .as melt.

    just kidding

    ~~~~

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019 5:42PM

    First 1964 SMS Specimen

    From the ANA auction, Hansen purchased his first 1964 SMS coin, the Kennedy Half Dollar. We saw this coming, as discussed a few weeks ago. You may recall me asking this question.

    @Currin said:
    I believe this may be the last Kennedy in the Complete Variety Category that Hansen does not have. Stacks & Bowers is offering the coin in an upcoming auction. PCGS values at $150,000. Would you advise Hansen to pop on it?

    In one of the responses, the point was made that this coin is not part of the Eliasberg Quest, so maybe the coin is not important to Hansen, especially at the going price of $150,000. But as we discussed, this coin was required to compete the Kennedy Collection including the Complete Varieties and Proofs. The complete set consists of 263 coins. This complete and comprehensive collection of Kennedy Half Dollars has been dominated by The Acadia Collection for the past 12 years. Still is. Hansen is the only the second current collector to register a complete set. This is a somewhat exclusive club with only four other collections registered with 90% or better completed, including PDShad, Sierra, subvet, and Vic’s Collections. There have been a few other collections to retire 90% or better completed, in the most recent Whitlock Collection that was purchased by Hansen. The only retired set with the 1964 SMS included in the collection was the VDB Coins Collection retired in 2016 with a SP67 Specimen. The set was ranked #1 when retired, although never was ranked #1 when the annual awards were given. It appears Hansen did not want this coin to be show stopper for The Great Collection. To be determine as we watch if Hansen has interest in completing the 1964 SMS set.

    The comprehensive collection of Kennedy Half Dollars is a challenge. I call this grouping a collection rather than a set, because it is really a combine effort of several sets, including mint states, proofs, and all varieties. PCGS describes the collection as: A complete variety set of any set is usually a challenge, and the Kennedy Halves are no different. Topping the list is the extremely scarce 1964 "SMS" issue. Only about a dozen of these are known, and prices can run well into five figures. Dozens of varieties from the Cherrypicker's Guide are to be found here, usually Doubled Die Obverses, though other types of varieties also exist. This set has yet to be completed, though a few collectors have come close.

    The retired VDB Coins Collection had a really good description for the collection that explains the requirement of the 1964 SMS coin really well. The set was described as: This complete set includes one of everything, although some interesting major varieties are excluded. It also rightly includes the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy halves, which are not true Special Mint Set coins but are Specimen Strike coins and among the rarest coins made in the 20th century. The bold strike is characteristic of proof coins, but they were struck from business strike dies that show heavy, crisscrossing die polishing lines. Only a single die pair was used for the dozen or so halves known (we have bought and sold most of the survivors of all denominations; the halves are the rarest by far). John Dannreuther has written of these, "Although the exact source of the Special Mint Set strikings of 1964 coinage is uncertain (most believe they came from the estate of dealer Lester Merkin), they have been trading in the numismatic marketplace since their surfacing in auctions beginning in 1993. Their inclusion as separate varieties is analogous to the separate listing of Satin finish examples in Mint Sets, which were first issued in 2005. Both are striking variations that represent a variation from the normal strikes (hence, PCGS listing them as separate varieties)." [Actually, we have found Stack's auctions of these as early as 1991.) A "complete" set will never be complete without an example of the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy half, the true key to the set.

    1964 Kennedy Half Dollar. SMS. Specimen-68 (PCGS)

    Rare and Intriguing is the headline description that Stacks Bowers give this specimen. Also, Among the Finest Known to PCGS is used to describe. I think other description that would be fitting is “expensive” or “show stopper”. If this coin was required in a Kennedy Basic set, it is not even be thinkable the value it would being. The auctioneer described the coin as: Stunningly rich and original velvety smooth surfaces are blessed with an almost brushed nickel gray color that serves to accentuate the bold strike and strongly incised features of the design, all of which serve to make these very special coins stand out from even Proof 1964 Kennedy half dollars. The reverse is ever so slightly lighter in color, but no less bold with only the barest hint of a light golden hue along the diagnostic squared off wire rim. Thoroughly impressive and enchanting in every regard and a true wonder to behold.

    The coin hammered at $156,000. Not surprising when I describe the coin as a $150K coin several weeks ago. The pre-bidding was somewhat small. At one point I thought the coin may go for a bargain, but live bidding pushed the price to expectations. There is one coin grade finer by PCGS, a single SP69 Specimen. According to the account given by the auctioneer, this Hansen’s Specimen was once the single Specimen-69 graded by NGC. This is the account given: It is important to note here that this piece was previously in an NGC Specimen-69 holder and was recently regraded by PCGS, at our consignor's request, to Specimen-68. At the time of writing, this is the only Specimen-69 in the NGC database. We do not know of the NGC record will have been removed from their database by the time this catalog is printed, so for the benefit of future owners, the NGC certification number on this coin was: 1727946-029. Cool.

    Provenance: Unknown

    1964 Kennedy Half Dollar, SMS, Specimen-68 (Gold Shield)
    Certification #37846452, PCGS #6844, PCGS POP: 5/1
    PCGS Price Guide Value: $150,000

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice 1933 $10, interesting right serif and crossbar on A3.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @Currin said:
    This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks

    Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.

    Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+

    IMHO.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Currin said:
    This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks

    Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.

    Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+

    IMHO.

    Yah but all my coins have graffiti on them. You’re some piece of work

  • ilikemonstersilikemonsters Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @Baley said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Currin said:
    This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks

    Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.

    Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+

    IMHO.

    Yah but all my coins have graffiti on them. You’re some piece of work

    Seems all your coins have problems.. Even your 1794 Dollar... it's polished!

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,214 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019 5:33PM

    @Boosibri said:
    I just don't get buying this coin and the 1933 $10 and passing on real rarities like the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5

    I'm not familiar with the 25c and $2.5. Isn't the Kennedy very rare too? Currin's post made it seem exceptionally rare, in any grade.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019 7:32PM

    Everybody collects their own way. Certainly the 1933 Eagle and 1964 Kennedy are iconic coins that even casual collectors are aware of while the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5 takes more of a specialist.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019 3:37PM

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @Baley said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Currin said:
    This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks

    Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.

    Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+

    IMHO.

    Yah but all my coins have graffiti on them. You’re some piece of work

    The specific pieces you refer to (exactly 2 coins, not "all") have minor marks of whatever kind and still grade 64 or better... My point has always been that the exact origin of the friction is unknowable and doesn't matter as much as the appearance and their effect on the overall grade. Those two wonderful, condition census level coins stand on their own, and they're gorgeous coins despite the geometric figures in the fields.

    Totally agreed with your "All coins' grades are net grades" comment.

    Have been condemned for saying that too. Let's not either one be a victim.. better to discuss the coins, rather than the people.

    As far as the 1933 eagle, it doesn't look as if it was "tooled" with a nail, needle, or knifepoint... so there's that! 😉

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019 7:59PM

    @Baley said:

    @Zoins said:

    @Currin said:
    This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks

    Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.

    Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+

    IMHO.

    Did you actually look at the coin in person in grade it? I did, and I have a really hard time getting to "net 65+". Keep in mind that the cheek was probably smoothed to remove the type of deep bagmarks often seen on this issue. So A LOT of metal was moved or removed in the process.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2019 8:34AM

    Open minded and note the imho.
    Not a buyer at any price, sadly..

    Curious, what Equivalent grade level price did it sell at?

    THAT'S the current Net Grade..

    Certainly such a nice problem coin doesn't lose All its points, does it?

    Edit to add: ok, we learn that the transaction price was $300k.

    So, (checks pcgs price guide) the net grade (value) at that time and place was between MS63+ and MS64.

    More information has come to my attention, and my initial opinion has now changed. Didn't hurt much! 😀

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tooling is also at A3.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:
    Open minded and note the imho.
    Not a buyer at any price, sadly..

    Curious, what Equivalent grade level price did it sell at?

    THAT'S the current Net Grade..

    Certainly such a nice problem coin doesn't lose All its points, does it?

    That is an illogical approach IMHO. The price can and will fluctuate wildly (look at the pricing history for the gems), but a grading scale, if it is to have any utility at all, will not fluctuate as wildly.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    lemmee see here....he passes on an 1827 original quarter at the ANA show but drops nearly the same amount on a tooled coin? Color me confused...

    Even more baffling to me is that he paid $300k. A straight graded 64 went for $367k 5-6 years ago. Yes markets can change, but there is nothing in the other examples sold since then to suggest a huge price increase of that magnitude IMHO. (There was one gem that sold at an inflated price but examples sold since then suggest it was an outlier - namely another 65 and the price the 66 that sold for recently.)

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @neildrobertson said:
    It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit.

    There are details and then there are details. Naturally occurring or historically interesting okay with me in some cases (e.g. clipped, light corrosion, rim bumps, very old cleaning). However, tooling, sorry no. Tooling was likely meant to deceive.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,145 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Everybody collects their own way. Certainly the 1933 Eagle and 1964 Kennedy are iconic coins that even casual collectors are aware of while the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5 takes more of a specialist.

    The two coins noted are essential to his stated goal so I am not sure what other way there is especially when 5-10 are extant for each issue.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,308 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:

    @Zoins said:
    Everybody collects their own way. Certainly the 1933 Eagle and 1964 Kennedy are iconic coins that even casual collectors are aware of while the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5 takes more of a specialist.

    The two coins noted are essential to his stated goal so I am not sure what other way there is especially when 5-10 are extant for each issue.

    Hopefully he can answer here :)

  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 12,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Putting together a high profile coin collection in the public manner that Mr. Hansen is doing definitely has both benefits and detriments.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Zoins said:
    Do we know which doctor could have done this? Are any know for this type of work that we can recognize?

    You're asking for answers that could lead to respondents being sued.

    That maybe...and... I'd like to see this thread get back to the Hansen collection again.
    Maybe start new threads to diss his choices or other questionable purpose posts.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,271 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Zoins said:
    Do we know which doctor could have done this? Are any know for this type of work that we can recognize?

    Whoever did it did a very shoddy job.

    The work was probably done 50+ years ago. Today’s doctors do much better work.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Someone posted a CNN link where DLRC is quoted as saying that he only needed to six more coins, and John made comments that he had several updates left to post. I wonder what other coins he has added that may not have made Hansen's registry set yet.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019 1:16AM

    @cameonut2011 said:
    Someone posted a CNN link where DLRC is quoted as saying that he only needed to six more coins, and John made comments that he had several updates left to post. I wonder what other coins he has added that may not have made Hansen's registry set yet.

    Those six are likely the six coins not in bold in the above list - to complete the "regular registry set".
    The next update should include the 1933 $10, which reduces this number to five.

    The coins in bold above should be proof-only, unique, illegal, or considered by some to be patterns.
    The 10c 1873-CC no arrows dime is really a (red book) die variety; maybe not a date-mintmark requirement,
    but Eliasberg had it and almost all the coins in bold.

  • JBatDavidLawrenceJBatDavidLawrence Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019 7:44AM

    @yosclimber said:

    Those six are likely the six coins not in bold in the above list - to complete the "regular registry set".

    https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/complete-sets/master-sets/u-s-coins-complete-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1792-1964/alltimeset/149665

    John Brush
    President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
    email: John@davidlawrence.com
    2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
  • Winchester1873Winchester1873 Posts: 201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019 2:07PM

    As a Dahlonega gold enthusiast, I would like to see him complete the 70 coin Dahlonega Gold-Major Varieties set. It’s a very spectacular feat so far!

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019 6:00AM

    Unfortunately, the complete basic set of circulation strikes was not Eliasberg’s accomplishment. At the time, proofs were ‘better’ and necessary..if you stop there, you’ve failed.

    Of course, if you do both the complete proof and circulation strike sets, then you’ve exceeded. But make no mistake, you can’t not have a 1913 and expect to be acclaimed as complete.

    I remain shocked and surprised that pcgs has not created the ‘Eliasberg Registry Set’...combined proof and circulation strike....so the pursuit can be followed apples to apples

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pffft. What’s two years in numismatics? Patience, grasshopper....

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,308 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:
    I’m still having a real hard time with the 1933 Indian. IMHO it shouldn’t count. It’s one thing getting duped by a doctor but knowingly buying a tooled coin makes you part of the process. The incentive persists to monkey coins for the sake of the registry and financial gain. Greed meets ego. Man I hate this buy with a passion

    mark

    To me it’s part of our hobby. We have been lamenting doctors for decades and it seems they can’t be stopped or even identified. Even bad medical doctors who make people sign non-disclosures get outed, but coin doctors are untouchable.

    Also, for better or worse, it is slabbed by our hosts. In the old days, it wouldn’t have been slabbed but times have changed.

    Let’s see if it gets upgraded. The set’s not yet complete so it could happen.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file