@Insider2 said:
I personally grade it 65+ (beat up reverse). I'd sell it as a 66+ and I'll bet it is in a 67 slab or 67+.
Any offers?????
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.
@ilikemonsters said:
I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.
You win the guess the grade award. The spot left of the eagle is just a scruffy patch. No problem there. The problem is the prefect cheek. For 1933 Eagles, it is too prefect. There is some old microscopic tooling that can not be seen in the picture or by eye. Otherwise, I think everyone can agree the coin is amazing.
@ilikemonsters said:
I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.
You win the guess the grade award. The spot left of the eagle is just a scruffy patch. No problem there. The problem is the prefect cheek. For 1933 Eagles, it is too prefect. There is some old microscopic tooling that can not be seen in the picture or by eye. Otherwise, I think everyone can agree the coin is amazing.
John and Del, thanks for taking the time and effort and expense to display the trade dollar set. It was WOW WOW WOW! Really enjoyed seeing it ( as did many others)
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
Yes, I’m very glad to hear he’s buying genuine coins! It would not be a good thing if he were buying thousands of counterfeits.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@tradedollarnut said:
lemmee see here....he passes on an 1827 original quarter at the ANA show but drops nearly the same amount on a tooled coin? Color me confused...
He also let the 1841 quarter eagle slip away. I’m sure he had a reason, but still surprising.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@ilikemonsters said:
I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.
You win the guess the grade award. The spot left of the eagle is just a scruffy patch. No problem there. The problem is the prefect cheek. For 1933 Eagles, it is too prefect. There is some old microscopic tooling that can not be seen in the picture or by eye. Otherwise, I think everyone can agree the coin is amazing.
So it is a filler I assume.
I would assume nothing, but I’d guess it’s going to be sent to Corum and turned into a watch.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit.
@neildrobertson said:
It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit.
There are a lot of EACers - myself included - who would agree with that comment.
@neildrobertson said:
It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit .as melt.
From the ANA auction, Hansen purchased his first 1964 SMS coin, the Kennedy Half Dollar. We saw this coming, as discussed a few weeks ago. You may recall me asking this question.
@Currin said:
I believe this may be the last Kennedy in the Complete Variety Category that Hansen does not have. Stacks & Bowers is offering the coin in an upcoming auction. PCGS values at $150,000. Would you advise Hansen to pop on it?
In one of the responses, the point was made that this coin is not part of the Eliasberg Quest, so maybe the coin is not important to Hansen, especially at the going price of $150,000. But as we discussed, this coin was required to compete the Kennedy Collection including the Complete Varieties and Proofs. The complete set consists of 263 coins. This complete and comprehensive collection of Kennedy Half Dollars has been dominated by The Acadia Collection for the past 12 years. Still is. Hansen is the only the second current collector to register a complete set. This is a somewhat exclusive club with only four other collections registered with 90% or better completed, including PDShad, Sierra, subvet, and Vic’s Collections. There have been a few other collections to retire 90% or better completed, in the most recent Whitlock Collection that was purchased by Hansen. The only retired set with the 1964 SMS included in the collection was the VDB Coins Collection retired in 2016 with a SP67 Specimen. The set was ranked #1 when retired, although never was ranked #1 when the annual awards were given. It appears Hansen did not want this coin to be show stopper for The Great Collection. To be determine as we watch if Hansen has interest in completing the 1964 SMS set.
The comprehensive collection of Kennedy Half Dollars is a challenge. I call this grouping a collection rather than a set, because it is really a combine effort of several sets, including mint states, proofs, and all varieties. PCGS describes the collection as: A complete variety set of any set is usually a challenge, and the Kennedy Halves are no different. Topping the list is the extremely scarce 1964 "SMS" issue. Only about a dozen of these are known, and prices can run well into five figures. Dozens of varieties from the Cherrypicker's Guide are to be found here, usually Doubled Die Obverses, though other types of varieties also exist. This set has yet to be completed, though a few collectors have come close.
The retired VDB Coins Collection had a really good description for the collection that explains the requirement of the 1964 SMS coin really well. The set was described as: This complete set includes one of everything, although some interesting major varieties are excluded. It also rightly includes the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy halves, which are not true Special Mint Set coins but are Specimen Strike coins and among the rarest coins made in the 20th century. The bold strike is characteristic of proof coins, but they were struck from business strike dies that show heavy, crisscrossing die polishing lines. Only a single die pair was used for the dozen or so halves known (we have bought and sold most of the survivors of all denominations; the halves are the rarest by far). John Dannreuther has written of these, "Although the exact source of the Special Mint Set strikings of 1964 coinage is uncertain (most believe they came from the estate of dealer Lester Merkin), they have been trading in the numismatic marketplace since their surfacing in auctions beginning in 1993. Their inclusion as separate varieties is analogous to the separate listing of Satin finish examples in Mint Sets, which were first issued in 2005. Both are striking variations that represent a variation from the normal strikes (hence, PCGS listing them as separate varieties)." [Actually, we have found Stack's auctions of these as early as 1991.) A "complete" set will never be complete without an example of the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy half, the true key to the set.
1964 Kennedy Half Dollar. SMS. Specimen-68 (PCGS)
Rare and Intriguing is the headline description that Stacks Bowers give this specimen. Also, Among the Finest Known to PCGS is used to describe. I think other description that would be fitting is “expensive” or “show stopper”. If this coin was required in a Kennedy Basic set, it is not even be thinkable the value it would being. The auctioneer described the coin as: Stunningly rich and original velvety smooth surfaces are blessed with an almost brushed nickel gray color that serves to accentuate the bold strike and strongly incised features of the design, all of which serve to make these very special coins stand out from even Proof 1964 Kennedy half dollars. The reverse is ever so slightly lighter in color, but no less bold with only the barest hint of a light golden hue along the diagnostic squared off wire rim. Thoroughly impressive and enchanting in every regard and a true wonder to behold.
The coin hammered at $156,000. Not surprising when I describe the coin as a $150K coin several weeks ago. The pre-bidding was somewhat small. At one point I thought the coin may go for a bargain, but live bidding pushed the price to expectations. There is one coin grade finer by PCGS, a single SP69 Specimen. According to the account given by the auctioneer, this Hansen’s Specimen was once the single Specimen-69 graded by NGC. This is the account given: It is important to note here that this piece was previously in an NGC Specimen-69 holder and was recently regraded by PCGS, at our consignor's request, to Specimen-68. At the time of writing, this is the only Specimen-69 in the NGC database. We do not know of the NGC record will have been removed from their database by the time this catalog is printed, so for the benefit of future owners, the NGC certification number on this coin was: 1727946-029. Cool.
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+
IMHO.
Yah but all my coins have graffiti on them. You’re some piece of work
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+
IMHO.
Yah but all my coins have graffiti on them. You’re some piece of work
Seems all your coins have problems.. Even your 1794 Dollar... it's polished!
Everybody collects their own way. Certainly the 1933 Eagle and 1964 Kennedy are iconic coins that even casual collectors are aware of while the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5 takes more of a specialist.
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+
IMHO.
Yah but all my coins have graffiti on them. You’re some piece of work
The specific pieces you refer to (exactly 2 coins, not "all") have minor marks of whatever kind and still grade 64 or better... My point has always been that the exact origin of the friction is unknowable and doesn't matter as much as the appearance and their effect on the overall grade. Those two wonderful, condition census level coins stand on their own, and they're gorgeous coins despite the geometric figures in the fields.
Totally agreed with your "All coins' grades are net grades" comment.
Have been condemned for saying that too. Let's not either one be a victim.. better to discuss the coins, rather than the people.
As far as the 1933 eagle, it doesn't look as if it was "tooled" with a nail, needle, or knifepoint... so there's that! 😉
@Currin said:
This is the latest addition to the Hansen Collection. Before I post an upgrade, can someone tell me what you would grade this coin? You can post or PM me privately, your preference. Thanks
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+
IMHO.
Did you actually look at the coin in person in grade it? I did, and I have a really hard time getting to "net 65+". Keep in mind that the cheek was probably smoothed to remove the type of deep bagmarks often seen on this issue. So A LOT of metal was moved or removed in the process.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Baley said:
Open minded and note the imho.
Not a buyer at any price, sadly..
Curious, what Equivalent grade level price did it sell at?
THAT'S the current Net Grade..
Certainly such a nice problem coin doesn't lose All its points, does it?
That is an illogical approach IMHO. The price can and will fluctuate wildly (look at the pricing history for the gems), but a grading scale, if it is to have any utility at all, will not fluctuate as wildly.
@tradedollarnut said:
lemmee see here....he passes on an 1827 original quarter at the ANA show but drops nearly the same amount on a tooled coin? Color me confused...
Even more baffling to me is that he paid $300k. A straight graded 64 went for $367k 5-6 years ago. Yes markets can change, but there is nothing in the other examples sold since then to suggest a huge price increase of that magnitude IMHO. (There was one gem that sold at an inflated price but examples sold since then suggest it was an outlier - namely another 65 and the price the 66 that sold for recently.)
That sucks. I wouldn't want a tooled coin for my collection regardless of price. I'd take a much lower grade as long as it's original and properly graded.
@neildrobertson said:
It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit.
There are details and then there are details. Naturally occurring or historically interesting okay with me in some cases (e.g. clipped, light corrosion, rim bumps, very old cleaning). However, tooling, sorry no. Tooling was likely meant to deceive.
IMO, purchasing a tooled coin for in excess of $300k incentivizes the coin doctors and is extremely detrimental to our hobby. The proper response would’ve been “thanks but no thanks”
@Zoins said:
Everybody collects their own way. Certainly the 1933 Eagle and 1964 Kennedy are iconic coins that even casual collectors are aware of while the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5 takes more of a specialist.
The two coins noted are essential to his stated goal so I am not sure what other way there is especially when 5-10 are extant for each issue.
@Zoins said:
Everybody collects their own way. Certainly the 1933 Eagle and 1964 Kennedy are iconic coins that even casual collectors are aware of while the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5 takes more of a specialist.
The two coins noted are essential to his stated goal so I am not sure what other way there is especially when 5-10 are extant for each issue.
@Zoins said:
Do we know which doctor could have done this? Are any know for this type of work that we can recognize?
You're asking for answers that could lead to respondents being sued.
That maybe...and... I'd like to see this thread get back to the Hansen collection again.
Maybe start new threads to diss his choices or other questionable purpose posts.
2nd coin in last Box of 20………...Present Box Value = $1,342,800
It a hard act to follow when the last count down coin sold for $1.3M. Still, this new addition counts as one more down, just as much as a $5M coin. Down the road as we get close to the end, there definitely will be some coins values well over $5M. Maybe even more than $10M. It will be a interesting ride to watch. First things first, let’s discuss this last Dahlonega Mint coin. With this addition, the 58 piece set is now complete.
As discussed last week, the set is second only to the Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection. For more details, look back a few posting to the Count Down 20 posting. Another popular Dahlonega Mint registry set is the 70 piece Major Varieties. This set requires an additional 12 coins. Hansen has nine of them already. This set has not been completed per the registry requirements. Hansen could be the first if he acquires the 1840-D (Small D), 1853-D (Medium D), and the 1855-D (Medium D). I have the feeling that one of Hansen’s goal is to complete this set at some point in the near future.
1854-D Quarter Eagle AU53
This 1854-D Quarter Eagle specimen is not a the condition census coin, but it is a nice specimen of this rare date and mint. A couple comments by the experts, David Akers said: In my opinion, the 1854-D is a bit overrated as a date, but it is anything but overrated in high grade. Like the other D Mint quarter eagles of this period, the 1854-D is always weakly struck at the denticles. The eagle's right leg (being opposite the high points of the head of Liberty) is always flat, as it is for virtually every early Liberty Head quarter eagle. Doug Winter comments was along the same lines: Due to its very low mintage figure, the rarity of the 1854-D quarter eagle has been somewhat overstated in the past. It is more available in lower grades than is generally believed but it is extremely rare in higher grades.
The coin was purchased in the August 15th Stacks Bowers Auction. The Auctioneer described the coin as a Rare Issue. The coin was further described as: This is an exceptionally well preserved, highly appealing example of an issue that is challenging to collect even in lower grades. Bright golden-yellow surfaces retain plenty of satin luster that is particularly lively when viewed with the aid of direct lighting. Obverse striking detail is sharp for the issue, Liberty’s portrait and the star centrils retaining ample detail in the absence of all but trivial high point wear. The reverse is typically soft in strike with the eagle and olive branch quite blunt, but we do note bolder detail in the recessed areas of the wings. Smooth in hand with no worrisome blemishes, this impressive condition rarity would serve as a highlight in an advanced Southern gold cabinet.
The coin realized $22,800, with PCGS value guide at $13,000.
Provenance: From the Maurice Snow Collection
In comparing to Eliasberg’s specimen, the registry describes his specimen as a 1854-D Quarter Eagle, Estimated grade XF45. Ex: Purchased by Louis Eliasberg from the Belden Roach collection, auctioned by B. Max Mehl in 1944. Purchased at the Bowers & Ruddy Oct '82 Eliasberg sale by Walter Perske for $4,180. Lot #168.
1854-D Quarter Eagle AU53 (Gold Shield) PCGS Coin #7771 / PCGS Serial #37621007 / POP 4/16
There are 18 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 12 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S XF45 Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10 1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection) 1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection) 1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA) 1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection) 1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased) 1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned) 1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 8 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8) 1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9) 1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17) 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series) 1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
Someone posted a CNN link where DLRC is quoted as saying that he only needed to six more coins, and John made comments that he had several updates left to post. I wonder what other coins he has added that may not have made Hansen's registry set yet.
@cameonut2011 said:
Someone posted a CNN link where DLRC is quoted as saying that he only needed to six more coins, and John made comments that he had several updates left to post. I wonder what other coins he has added that may not have made Hansen's registry set yet.
Those six are likely the six coins not in bold in the above list - to complete the "regular registry set".
The next update should include the 1933 $10, which reduces this number to five.
The coins in bold above should be proof-only, unique, illegal, or considered by some to be patterns.
The 10c 1873-CC no arrows dime is really a (red book) die variety; maybe not a date-mintmark requirement,
but Eliasberg had it and almost all the coins in bold.
@cameonut2011 said:
Even more baffling to me is that he paid $300k. A straight graded 64 went for $367k 5-6 years ago. Yes markets can change, but there is nothing in the other examples sold since then to suggest a huge price increase of that magnitude IMHO. (There was one gem that sold at an inflated price but examples sold since then suggest it was an outlier - namely another 65 and the price the 66 that sold for recently.)
A few comments:
There have been more 1913 nickels on the market the last 2 years than 1933 $10 Indians. In addition, the two gems are held by the same customer who isn't selling and is demanding a rather exorbitant price as well.
Most that criticize the purchase did not view the coin in-hand. When compared to other rarities that are currently for sale, the 1933 is for some reason a tougher coin to find than some of the other "rarer" items.
That being said, it was one of the final 10 holes in the Eliasberg set at PCGS, and there are now only 6 holes left to fill in that group. Of course other coins will be/have been added to the overall collection, but that set (as defined by PCGS) has been a focus since early on.
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Unfortunately, the complete basic set of circulation strikes was not Eliasberg’s accomplishment. At the time, proofs were ‘better’ and necessary..if you stop there, you’ve failed.
Of course, if you do both the complete proof and circulation strike sets, then you’ve exceeded. But make no mistake, you can’t not have a 1913 and expect to be acclaimed as complete.
I remain shocked and surprised that pcgs has not created the ‘Eliasberg Registry Set’...combined proof and circulation strike....so the pursuit can be followed apples to apples
I’m still having a real hard time with the 1933 Indian. IMHO it shouldn’t count. It’s one thing getting duped by a doctor but knowingly buying a tooled coin makes you part of the process. The incentive persists to monkeyed with coins for the sake of the registry and financial gain along the way by the Dr. Greed meets ego. Man I hate this buy with a passion
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
I’m still having a real hard time with the 1933 Indian. IMHO it shouldn’t count. It’s one thing getting duped by a doctor but knowingly buying a tooled coin makes you part of the process. The incentive persists to monkey coins for the sake of the registry and financial gain. Greed meets ego. Man I hate this buy with a passion
mark
To me it’s part of our hobby. We have been lamenting doctors for decades and it seems they can’t be stopped or even identified. Even bad medical doctors who make people sign non-disclosures get outed, but coin doctors are untouchable.
Also, for better or worse, it is slabbed by our hosts. In the old days, it wouldn’t have been slabbed but times have changed.
Let’s see if it gets upgraded. The set’s not yet complete so it could happen.
Comments
Any offers?????
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
All coins are net graded. When the picture seems nicer than the grade, more often than not it’s the picture in error
I see some possible tooling on it, so I'll go with UNC Details. Though it's difficult to determine based on a photo wether the area just to the left of the Eagle is tooling, or just a scuffy patch.
You win the guess the grade award. The spot left of the eagle is just a scruffy patch. No problem there. The problem is the prefect cheek. For 1933 Eagles, it is too prefect. There is some old microscopic tooling that can not be seen in the picture or by eye. Otherwise, I think everyone can agree the coin is amazing.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
66+
.
.> @Currin said:
So it is a filler I assume.
John and Del, thanks for taking the time and effort and expense to display the trade dollar set. It was WOW WOW WOW! Really enjoyed seeing it ( as did many others)
Nice looking genuine coin. Good to know Hansen is picking up genuine coins as well.
Yes, I’m very glad to hear he’s buying genuine coins! It would not be a good thing if he were buying thousands of counterfeits.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
lemmee see here....he passes on an 1827 original quarter at the ANA show but drops nearly the same amount on a tooled coin? Color me confused...
He also let the 1841 quarter eagle slip away. I’m sure he had a reason, but still surprising.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I would assume nothing, but I’d guess it’s going to be sent to Corum and turned into a watch.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
MS65?
My YouTube Channel
I see it's tooled... Interesting.
My YouTube Channel
It's an exceptional example. I'm pleasantly surprised to see some more open mindedness at the high end of the market for details coins. Details should be treated more like an asterisk than a strikethrough. Each one should be considered on its own merit and valued on its own merit.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
There are a lot of EACers - myself included - who would agree with that comment.
Smitten with DBLCs.
just kidding
~~~~
First 1964 SMS Specimen
From the ANA auction, Hansen purchased his first 1964 SMS coin, the Kennedy Half Dollar. We saw this coming, as discussed a few weeks ago. You may recall me asking this question.
In one of the responses, the point was made that this coin is not part of the Eliasberg Quest, so maybe the coin is not important to Hansen, especially at the going price of $150,000. But as we discussed, this coin was required to compete the Kennedy Collection including the Complete Varieties and Proofs. The complete set consists of 263 coins. This complete and comprehensive collection of Kennedy Half Dollars has been dominated by The Acadia Collection for the past 12 years. Still is. Hansen is the only the second current collector to register a complete set. This is a somewhat exclusive club with only four other collections registered with 90% or better completed, including PDShad, Sierra, subvet, and Vic’s Collections. There have been a few other collections to retire 90% or better completed, in the most recent Whitlock Collection that was purchased by Hansen. The only retired set with the 1964 SMS included in the collection was the VDB Coins Collection retired in 2016 with a SP67 Specimen. The set was ranked #1 when retired, although never was ranked #1 when the annual awards were given. It appears Hansen did not want this coin to be show stopper for The Great Collection. To be determine as we watch if Hansen has interest in completing the 1964 SMS set.
The comprehensive collection of Kennedy Half Dollars is a challenge. I call this grouping a collection rather than a set, because it is really a combine effort of several sets, including mint states, proofs, and all varieties. PCGS describes the collection as: A complete variety set of any set is usually a challenge, and the Kennedy Halves are no different. Topping the list is the extremely scarce 1964 "SMS" issue. Only about a dozen of these are known, and prices can run well into five figures. Dozens of varieties from the Cherrypicker's Guide are to be found here, usually Doubled Die Obverses, though other types of varieties also exist. This set has yet to be completed, though a few collectors have come close.
The retired VDB Coins Collection had a really good description for the collection that explains the requirement of the 1964 SMS coin really well. The set was described as: This complete set includes one of everything, although some interesting major varieties are excluded. It also rightly includes the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy halves, which are not true Special Mint Set coins but are Specimen Strike coins and among the rarest coins made in the 20th century. The bold strike is characteristic of proof coins, but they were struck from business strike dies that show heavy, crisscrossing die polishing lines. Only a single die pair was used for the dozen or so halves known (we have bought and sold most of the survivors of all denominations; the halves are the rarest by far). John Dannreuther has written of these, "Although the exact source of the Special Mint Set strikings of 1964 coinage is uncertain (most believe they came from the estate of dealer Lester Merkin), they have been trading in the numismatic marketplace since their surfacing in auctions beginning in 1993. Their inclusion as separate varieties is analogous to the separate listing of Satin finish examples in Mint Sets, which were first issued in 2005. Both are striking variations that represent a variation from the normal strikes (hence, PCGS listing them as separate varieties)." [Actually, we have found Stack's auctions of these as early as 1991.) A "complete" set will never be complete without an example of the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy half, the true key to the set.
1964 Kennedy Half Dollar. SMS. Specimen-68 (PCGS)
Rare and Intriguing is the headline description that Stacks Bowers give this specimen. Also, Among the Finest Known to PCGS is used to describe. I think other description that would be fitting is “expensive” or “show stopper”. If this coin was required in a Kennedy Basic set, it is not even be thinkable the value it would being. The auctioneer described the coin as: Stunningly rich and original velvety smooth surfaces are blessed with an almost brushed nickel gray color that serves to accentuate the bold strike and strongly incised features of the design, all of which serve to make these very special coins stand out from even Proof 1964 Kennedy half dollars. The reverse is ever so slightly lighter in color, but no less bold with only the barest hint of a light golden hue along the diagnostic squared off wire rim. Thoroughly impressive and enchanting in every regard and a true wonder to behold.
The coin hammered at $156,000. Not surprising when I describe the coin as a $150K coin several weeks ago. The pre-bidding was somewhat small. At one point I thought the coin may go for a bargain, but live bidding pushed the price to expectations. There is one coin grade finer by PCGS, a single SP69 Specimen. According to the account given by the auctioneer, this Hansen’s Specimen was once the single Specimen-69 graded by NGC. This is the account given: It is important to note here that this piece was previously in an NGC Specimen-69 holder and was recently regraded by PCGS, at our consignor's request, to Specimen-68. At the time of writing, this is the only Specimen-69 in the NGC database. We do not know of the NGC record will have been removed from their database by the time this catalog is printed, so for the benefit of future owners, the NGC certification number on this coin was: 1727946-029. Cool.
Provenance: Unknown
1964 Kennedy Half Dollar, SMS, Specimen-68 (Gold Shield)
Certification #37846452, PCGS #6844, PCGS POP: 5/1
PCGS Price Guide Value: $150,000
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I just don't get buying this coin and the 1933 $10 and passing on real rarities like the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5
Latin American Collection
Nice 1933 $10, interesting right serif and crossbar on A3.
Coin grades Superb Gem Unc. details, tooled, net MS65+
IMHO.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yah but all my coins have graffiti on them. You’re some piece of work
Seems all your coins have problems.. Even your 1794 Dollar... it's polished!
I'm not familiar with the 25c and $2.5. Isn't the Kennedy very rare too? Currin's post made it seem exceptionally rare, in any grade.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Everybody collects their own way. Certainly the 1933 Eagle and 1964 Kennedy are iconic coins that even casual collectors are aware of while the 1827 25c and 1841 $2.5 takes more of a specialist.
The specific pieces you refer to (exactly 2 coins, not "all") have minor marks of whatever kind and still grade 64 or better... My point has always been that the exact origin of the friction is unknowable and doesn't matter as much as the appearance and their effect on the overall grade. Those two wonderful, condition census level coins stand on their own, and they're gorgeous coins despite the geometric figures in the fields.
Totally agreed with your "All coins' grades are net grades" comment.
Have been condemned for saying that too. Let's not either one be a victim.. better to discuss the coins, rather than the people.
As far as the 1933 eagle, it doesn't look as if it was "tooled" with a nail, needle, or knifepoint... so there's that! 😉
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Did you actually look at the coin in person in grade it? I did, and I have a really hard time getting to "net 65+". Keep in mind that the cheek was probably smoothed to remove the type of deep bagmarks often seen on this issue. So A LOT of metal was moved or removed in the process.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Open minded and note the imho.
Not a buyer at any price, sadly..
Curious, what Equivalent grade level price did it sell at?
THAT'S the current Net Grade..
Certainly such a nice problem coin doesn't lose All its points, does it?
Edit to add: ok, we learn that the transaction price was $300k.
So, (checks pcgs price guide) the net grade (value) at that time and place was between MS63+ and MS64.
More information has come to my attention, and my initial opinion has now changed. Didn't hurt much! 😀
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Tooling is also at A3.
That is an illogical approach IMHO. The price can and will fluctuate wildly (look at the pricing history for the gems), but a grading scale, if it is to have any utility at all, will not fluctuate as wildly.
Even more baffling to me is that he paid $300k. A straight graded 64 went for $367k 5-6 years ago. Yes markets can change, but there is nothing in the other examples sold since then to suggest a huge price increase of that magnitude IMHO. (There was one gem that sold at an inflated price but examples sold since then suggest it was an outlier - namely another 65 and the price the 66 that sold for recently.)
That sucks. I wouldn't want a tooled coin for my collection regardless of price. I'd take a much lower grade as long as it's original and properly graded.
My YouTube Channel
There are details and then there are details. Naturally occurring or historically interesting okay with me in some cases (e.g. clipped, light corrosion, rim bumps, very old cleaning). However, tooling, sorry no. Tooling was likely meant to deceive.
IMO, purchasing a tooled coin for in excess of $300k incentivizes the coin doctors and is extremely detrimental to our hobby. The proper response would’ve been “thanks but no thanks”
The two coins noted are essential to his stated goal so I am not sure what other way there is especially when 5-10 are extant for each issue.
Latin American Collection
Hopefully he can answer here
Putting together a high profile coin collection in the public manner that Mr. Hansen is doing definitely has both benefits and detriments.
That maybe...and... I'd like to see this thread get back to the Hansen collection again.
Maybe start new threads to diss his choices or other questionable purpose posts.
The work was probably done 50+ years ago. Today’s doctors do much better work.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Count Down 18 – Last Dahlonega Mint Coin
2nd coin in last Box of 20………...Present Box Value = $1,342,800
It a hard act to follow when the last count down coin sold for $1.3M. Still, this new addition counts as one more down, just as much as a $5M coin. Down the road as we get close to the end, there definitely will be some coins values well over $5M. Maybe even more than $10M. It will be a interesting ride to watch. First things first, let’s discuss this last Dahlonega Mint coin. With this addition, the 58 piece set is now complete.
As discussed last week, the set is second only to the Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection. For more details, look back a few posting to the Count Down 20 posting. Another popular Dahlonega Mint registry set is the 70 piece Major Varieties. This set requires an additional 12 coins. Hansen has nine of them already. This set has not been completed per the registry requirements. Hansen could be the first if he acquires the 1840-D (Small D), 1853-D (Medium D), and the 1855-D (Medium D). I have the feeling that one of Hansen’s goal is to complete this set at some point in the near future.
1854-D Quarter Eagle AU53
This 1854-D Quarter Eagle specimen is not a the condition census coin, but it is a nice specimen of this rare date and mint. A couple comments by the experts, David Akers said: In my opinion, the 1854-D is a bit overrated as a date, but it is anything but overrated in high grade. Like the other D Mint quarter eagles of this period, the 1854-D is always weakly struck at the denticles. The eagle's right leg (being opposite the high points of the head of Liberty) is always flat, as it is for virtually every early Liberty Head quarter eagle. Doug Winter comments was along the same lines: Due to its very low mintage figure, the rarity of the 1854-D quarter eagle has been somewhat overstated in the past. It is more available in lower grades than is generally believed but it is extremely rare in higher grades.
The coin was purchased in the August 15th Stacks Bowers Auction. The Auctioneer described the coin as a Rare Issue. The coin was further described as: This is an exceptionally well preserved, highly appealing example of an issue that is challenging to collect even in lower grades. Bright golden-yellow surfaces retain plenty of satin luster that is particularly lively when viewed with the aid of direct lighting. Obverse striking detail is sharp for the issue, Liberty’s portrait and the star centrils retaining ample detail in the absence of all but trivial high point wear. The reverse is typically soft in strike with the eagle and olive branch quite blunt, but we do note bolder detail in the recessed areas of the wings. Smooth in hand with no worrisome blemishes, this impressive condition rarity would serve as a highlight in an advanced Southern gold cabinet.
The coin realized $22,800, with PCGS value guide at $13,000.
Provenance: From the Maurice Snow Collection
In comparing to Eliasberg’s specimen, the registry describes his specimen as a 1854-D Quarter Eagle, Estimated grade XF45. Ex: Purchased by Louis Eliasberg from the Belden Roach collection, auctioned by B. Max Mehl in 1944. Purchased at the Bowers & Ruddy Oct '82 Eliasberg sale by Walter Perske for $4,180. Lot #168.
1854-D Quarter Eagle AU53 (Gold Shield)
PCGS Coin #7771 / PCGS Serial #37621007 / POP 4/16
There are 18 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 12 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S XF45 Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10
1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection)
1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection)
1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA)
1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection)
1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased)
1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned)
1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 8
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8)
1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9)
1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Someone posted a CNN link where DLRC is quoted as saying that he only needed to six more coins, and John made comments that he had several updates left to post. I wonder what other coins he has added that may not have made Hansen's registry set yet.
Those six are likely the six coins not in bold in the above list - to complete the "regular registry set".
The next update should include the 1933 $10, which reduces this number to five.
The coins in bold above should be proof-only, unique, illegal, or considered by some to be patterns.
The 10c 1873-CC no arrows dime is really a (red book) die variety; maybe not a date-mintmark requirement,
but Eliasberg had it and almost all the coins in bold.
A few comments:
There have been more 1913 nickels on the market the last 2 years than 1933 $10 Indians. In addition, the two gems are held by the same customer who isn't selling and is demanding a rather exorbitant price as well.
Most that criticize the purchase did not view the coin in-hand. When compared to other rarities that are currently for sale, the 1933 is for some reason a tougher coin to find than some of the other "rarer" items.
That being said, it was one of the final 10 holes in the Eliasberg set at PCGS, and there are now only 6 holes left to fill in that group. Of course other coins will be/have been added to the overall collection, but that set (as defined by PCGS) has been a focus since early on.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/complete-sets/master-sets/u-s-coins-complete-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1792-1964/alltimeset/149665
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
As a Dahlonega gold enthusiast, I would like to see him complete the 70 coin Dahlonega Gold-Major Varieties set. It’s a very spectacular feat so far!
Unfortunately, the complete basic set of circulation strikes was not Eliasberg’s accomplishment. At the time, proofs were ‘better’ and necessary..if you stop there, you’ve failed.
Of course, if you do both the complete proof and circulation strike sets, then you’ve exceeded. But make no mistake, you can’t not have a 1913 and expect to be acclaimed as complete.
I remain shocked and surprised that pcgs has not created the ‘Eliasberg Registry Set’...combined proof and circulation strike....so the pursuit can be followed apples to apples
Pffft. What’s two years in numismatics? Patience, grasshopper....
I’m still having a real hard time with the 1933 Indian. IMHO it shouldn’t count. It’s one thing getting duped by a doctor but knowingly buying a tooled coin makes you part of the process. The incentive persists to monkeyed with coins for the sake of the registry and financial gain along the way by the Dr. Greed meets ego. Man I hate this buy with a passion
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
To me it’s part of our hobby. We have been lamenting doctors for decades and it seems they can’t be stopped or even identified. Even bad medical doctors who make people sign non-disclosures get outed, but coin doctors are untouchable.
Also, for better or worse, it is slabbed by our hosts. In the old days, it wouldn’t have been slabbed but times have changed.
Let’s see if it gets upgraded. The set’s not yet complete so it could happen.