that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.
I think that’s going a bit far. I think it’s fine to recognize nice, ungraded coins but I don’t see anything wrong with “finest graded”. It’s honest and clear in meaning.
@tradedollarnut said:
What’s fairness got to do with anything? The coin is what it is. Anyone buying ANY coin has to be aware there is always the possibility that something else is out there.
Why spend 7 or 8 figures on a 1933 double eagle, knowing that it could be possible there are 5,000 unknown examples in some govt vault.
I trust you that the raw coin is better, but it's also irrelevant considering it sounds like it's getting buried in 20-30 years.
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.
It’s not bologna if a coin is described as “finest graded” and it is the finest/highest graded. In that scenario, the condition of raw coins is irrelevant. But it might be bologna if the coin is described as “finest known” and there are raw coins which people think or know are finer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.
I think that’s going a bit far. I think it’s fine to recognize nice, ungraded coins but I don’t see anything wrong with “finest graded”. It’s honest and clear in meaning.
“Finest graded” may indicate finest known to the uneducated collector.
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.
I think that’s going a bit far. I think it’s fine to recognize nice, ungraded coins but I don’t see anything wrong with “finest graded”. It’s honest and clear in meaning.
“Finest graded” may indicate finest known to the uneducated collector.
If it’s accurate, it’s not bologna, even if the uneducated collector takes it the wrong way. How would you note the population of a highest-graded coin?
Edited the add: For the record, I do prefer “highest graded” to “finest graded”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
All I’m saying is that just because a coin is not slabbed doesn’t mean that it is not the finest known or at the very least finer that something that is slabbed.
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.
I think that’s going a bit far. I think it’s fine to recognize nice, ungraded coins but I don’t see anything wrong with “finest graded”. It’s honest and clear in meaning.
“Finest graded” may indicate finest known to the uneducated collector.
All that is indicating is that the uneducated collector needs to educate him or herself. The term is accurate.
Would you suggest no one use the term “finest known” since an uneducated collector could take that to mean the finest known to and graded by a TPG?
This is getting a little off track. The historic statement for the Eliasberg 1885 Trade is Finest by Far of Just Five Known. Period!
I believe statement at at the Eliasberg sale was for a MS65 raw coin. I not sure why TPG is being drawn into this discussion. It just confusing the discussion.
A TPG by PCGS could make the claim more legitimate, but that is the only value they could play in this discussion.
@Currin said:
The historic statement for the Eliasberg 1885 Trade is Finest by Far of Just Five Known. Period!
This is just auction description hype, not historic or really expected to be accurate.
Finest graded in a slab, sure.
But not finest known to the experts.
It's a part of the hobby that some collectors suppress information on the coins they own.
This does create challenges for the auction catalogers and those writing rosters.
It is more fun to study the coins when all the info is freely shared,
but sometimes we don't get that.
Also, until Hansen purchased the coin a couple months ago, I do not remember anyone challenging or disputing this ranking. I will try to say this without being negative, it appear to me with many of Hansen coins, as with the 1885, they lose a lot of their shine starting at the day Hansen makes the purchase. This may be a biased statement, but it is my observation. I may be the only one that has made that observation.
tradedollarnut Posts: 18,837 ✭✭✭✭✭ November 26, 2018 5:38PM
Used to own them both. Lovely coins - only issues are a fingerprint on the reverse of the 1884 and a flat strike and ‘moldy haze’ on the obverse of the 1885.
I’d be a buyer but I know where the better 1885 resides. It’s my dream coin.
And the auction closed 2019-01-10 .
Although it's true that sometimes @specialist posted after Hansen bought a coin that there was one she liked better (sometimes it was one he already had). She was mostly just sharing what she observed and judged when comparing the top coins.
P.S. I hope this does not feel negative to you.
I appreciate your great ongoing work on this thread.
Sometimes I will offer what I feel are corrections like this one, though.
That could also be added to auction results! Funny how people think they can reference a piece of crap compared to a nice coin with coin facts! I'm going through that now and there will be no sale!
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.
@Currin said:
The historic statement for the Eliasberg 1885 Trade is Finest by Far of Just Five Known. Period!
This is just auction description hype, not historic or really expected to be accurate.
Finest graded in a slab, sure.
But not finest known to the experts.
I wouldn’t say this is necessarily just auction hype.
It could certainly be the finest known to the cataloger. While a handful experts have seen a coin they deem finer, many have not. TDN didn't even see the finer one for over 10 years after hearing about it and not believing it. The finer, raw coin also isn't listed in the PCGS CoinFacts Condition Census.
Respectfully, if I were Mr Hansen I would offer to trade the Starr 1884 straight across for the Eliasberg 1884. There’s more value in the pair being together than there is in owning the finest graded. Both historical and monetary...
@tradedollarnut said:
Respectfully, if I were Mr Hansen I would offer to trade the Starr 1884 straight across for the Eliasberg 1884. There’s more value in the pair being together than there is in owning the finest graded. Both historical and monetary...
This is interesting to think about, especially after the discussion that the Eliasberg 1885 is not the finest known. Perhaps the 2 finest knowns, Starr 1884 and Menjou 1885, should be paired as well? Of course the Menjou 1885 was also owned by Clint Hester who owned the 2nd finest 1884 so perhaps the 2 Clint Hester specimens could be paired again as well.
@tradedollarnut said:
Respectfully, if I were Mr Hansen I would offer to trade the Starr 1884 straight across for the Eliasberg 1884. There’s more value in the pair being together than there is in owning the finest graded. Both historical and monetary...
That is an interesting idea. I also wonder if he has considered the possibility of buying/keeping both of them.
I've worked at several TPGS. I've always treated coins of ANY value the same and very carefully as if they belonged to me. They do until I pass them on to another grader!
To this day, I still don't want anyone touching any of my raw coins. Go figure what that's all about. Perhaps that's why the coin is still raw.
@tradedollarnut said:
Respectfully, if I were Mr Hansen I would offer to trade the Starr 1884 straight across for the Eliasberg 1884. There’s more value in the pair being together than there is in owning the finest graded. Both historical and monetary...
That is an interesting idea. I also wonder if he has considered the possibility of buying/keeping both of them.
Not available. The guy that owns it has more $ than he does, too. But I have to think that would be a win-win trade.
@tradedollarnut said:
Respectfully, if I were Mr Hansen I would offer to trade the Starr 1884 straight across for the Eliasberg 1884. There’s more value in the pair being together than there is in owning the finest graded. Both historical and monetary...
That is an interesting idea. I also wonder if he has considered the possibility of buying/keeping both of them.
Not available. The guy that owns it has more $ than he does, too. But I have to think that would be a win-win trade.
I agree that it would be fascinating to see the Eliasberg coins together; however, I would much rather have the Starr coin than the next two down. The Eliasberg (NGC PF66) is nice, but it looks to have had an old dip. I know some will find the Starr coin to be a little dark, but I enjoy its originality. Unless there are more coins hiding in the wood work, it is his only opportunity to own an original gem/superb gem specimen. (The Jack Lee PF65 coin was dipped blast white). I really like the the Lee and Eliasberg coins, but if given the option, I'd rather have the most original one.
My point being that the Eliasberg 1885 will most likely lose 10-15% of its value once it’s no longer the finest graded...the way to retain its value is to have the matched pair. The $ you’d give up on the 1884 is less and historically the value is through the roof
That’s one reason I sold the 1885....I figured the ‘finest known’ premium was gonna go away.
@tradedollarnut said:
My point being that the Eliasberg 1885 will most likely lose 10-15% of its value once it’s no longer the finest graded...the way to retain its value is to have the matched pair. The $ you’d give up on the 1884 is less and historically the value is through the roof
That’s one reason I sold the 1885....I figured the ‘finest known’ premium was gonna go away.
I remember JB saying that Mr. Hansen is very pleased and happy with his pair (1884,1885). I don’t think value or price will be a significant factor of the pair that will be known for this set. I think it will be more owner preference than anything else. Eliasberg sold his finest 1894-S dime and kept a lower technical graded specimen. We are just guessing what Hansen specimens will be represented in his final sets.
Mr. Hansen has a strong passion to obtain the highest graded Lincoln Cents. He owns the 3 highest graded 1917 DDO examples.
He has also spent app. $ 250K
to obtain them .
Can you believe we reached 100K views today? For about 15 months, the thread has sustained a constant viewership. This is only due to the many of you that watch the Hansen thread daily, weekly or monthly. I hope we can keep it interesting, educational, as well as entertaining. We had some topics that have led to controversy. I think this is OK as long as we can keep it civil. Hannah Boyd’s expectations are to keep comments positive and not compare dealers and/or other collectors. I don’t think that is too much to ask due to we are allowed to use this this venue free of any cost. Now, let’s talk about The Great Collection.
The last update was at 75K in the first week of April, just over 3 months ago. I usually start with the misses. I do not recall any significant misses in what I think JB would call “must haves”. With August 2019 ANA Auctions just a few weeks away, I know the opportunity will be there for some nice additions. The only countdown coin that I am aware that will be offered by one of The Major Auction houses will be the 1894-s Dime. We could have an interesting conversation about this one.
Eliasberg Quest (classic style)
The Eliasberg Quest is D.L. Hansen attempt to match or exceed Louis Eliasberg. If you have watched for a while now, you may recall a great deal of discussion around what success would look like. If success is that Hansen must match Eliasberg on having a specimen of every year and mint US issue coin, then I have provided what I call the countdown list. There are presently 21 coins on this list. As stated, only coin from this list that I know is being offered at ANA is the 1894-s. If you know of other specimens, please share with the community.
There are 21 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 13 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S XF45 Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10 1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection) 1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection) 1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA) 1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection) 1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased) 1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned) 1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 9 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8) 1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9) 1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13) 1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17) 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series) 1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
As stated last time, it appear to me, Hansen is on a mission to collect every date, mint mark, major variety, and proof in the US issues from 1793-Present (or as close to every coin as possible). With the 2018 issues, we are talking about approx. 6300 coins. The Hansen Collection master set reached 92.7% as of today. This is a massive effort that maybe no one has ever made a serious attempt to achieve before. PCGS has a registry set that represents this effort.
This colossal set is approx. 6300 coins that increase every year. PCGS describes the set as: Every U.S. coin in Circulation Strike and Proof from 1792 to present, every date, every Mintmark, every major variety, this set is the ultimate challenge. A collection of this size could take years to assemble. The collector who completes this set in high grade would make numismatic history. Are you up to the challenge? Hansen continues to chip away at this overall set. He added 45 new coins in the last three months. I think the set could be completed to approx. 99.9%. It is going to interesting to watch and see how close he can meet the Hansen Challenge.
. Breakdown of the Hansen Challenge
CS Pre 1964 Basic – 10 coins left (no change)
CS Pre 1964 Major Varieties - 51 coins left (down 5 from last update)
CS Modern (including Major Varieties) – 108 coins left (down 17 from last update) Note: 30 2018 -2019 Updates added to set.
Proof Pre 1964 (including Major Varieties) – 300 coins left (down 33 from last update)
Proof Modern (including Major Varieties) – 1 coin left (no change)
Total – approx. 459 coins left of 6300. Roughly – 92.7%. (Added approx. 45 coins since the last update)
@Currin said: Top 10 1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018) 1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned)
Interesting all three sold since Hansen began his set (including two of the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels), but he interestingly chose to pass. (Or more accurately as you pointed out he sold his partial interest in the 1854-S $5.) I wonder what his strategy was here or if he simply believed the coins to be overpriced.
@tradedollarnut said:
My point being that the Eliasberg 1885 will most likely lose 10-15% of its value once it’s no longer the finest graded...the way to retain its value is to have the matched pair. The $ you’d give up on the 1884 is less and historically the value is through the roof
That’s one reason I sold the 1885....I figured the ‘finest known’ premium was gonna go away.
I have been thinking about this the last several days. I know you mentioned the ungraded 1885 Trade Dollar in older threads here, but is it (and an accurate grade) referenced in Trade Dollar reference books already? In other words, how well known is the existence of a higher graded 1885? If it is well known to be a better coin, I wonder if the possibility of the new coin coming to light is already baked into the existing premium. You make a very good and interesting point.
@tradedollarnut said:
My point being that the Eliasberg 1885 will most likely lose 10-15% of its value once it’s no longer the finest graded...the way to retain its value is to have the matched pair. The $ you’d give up on the 1884 is less and historically the value is through the roof
That’s one reason I sold the 1885....I figured the ‘finest known’ premium was gonna go away.
I have been thinking about this the last several days. I know you mentioned the ungraded 1885 Trade Dollar in older threads here, but is it referenced in Trade Dollar reference books already? In other words, how well known is the existence of the other 1885? If it is well known, I wonder if the possibility of the new coin coming to light is already baked into the existing premium. You make a very good and interesting point.
It’s already in the Heritage, but not CoinFacts, Condition Census, though I haven’t seen any pics of it.
Zions, One of the 1885 Trades in roster is the MS62 PCGS in Driftwood’s Registry set. I am not sure if the coin is Farouk or Olsen specimen. I assume it to be Farouk with the NGC crossed over.
It has been almost a year since we had a good discussion on the Hansen’s Carson City set. In several ways, Carson City coins are very special in a historic sense. If you are not an historic person, that’s OK, because I think you can still enjoy these coins. I read somewhere many years ago that suggested when CC coins were first being minted, they really were not thought to be collectable. In the late 19th century, the coins minted at Philadelphia were being collected, but not the branch mint coins. The west mint coins may have even been even less collected. If anyone has any real facts to added, please feel free to do so.
From a registry perspective, there are not a lot of serious participants. Hansen is setting on top of the registry (100% completed by PCGS Basic set standards). The 2nd place set has been active for more than a decade. The 2nd place set is a very nice registry set with only one coin tied for finest, a PCGS POP 24/0. The GPA Weighted is 53.51, as I stated before, this is a very nice certified 98% complete Carson City set. The third place set is from the Legend stable. It is presently only 71.93% completed, but the GPA Weighted is out of this world for CC at 60.464. In comparison, Hansen’s GPA Weighted is 58.666. Hansen has a hand full of circulated coin that if replaced at some point will improve his weighted average.
The Carson City set is best known to require 111 coins. The registry requires three additional major varieties that bring the total up to 114. In reality, for a complete set the Unique 1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime is required. Naturally, Eliasberg had this coin and a comprehensive complete set. I think the only other set that has been assembled to this degree of completeness was by Battle Born. Can anyone verify that statement? This is what PCGS says about the CC set: Rare coins, of course, offer an excellent opportunity for people to collect and preserve the past; and Carson City coins in particular are quintessential reminders of not only the Old West era but also of the Gilded Age; and the various coinage acts of 1873, 1878, and 1890. When a collector allows himself to get caught up into the specialized field of Carson City coins, he will practically fall in love with the series: doors will be opened to the history of one of the most exciting and critical periods America has ever known. And the background of the coins with the "CC" mintmark is the stuff movie scripts are inspired by. There is no grander way to collect U.S. coins than with the Complete 111-piece set of coins from the "people's choice" for U.S. mints. Success in completing the set is conditioned, of course, upon a person being well financed, patient, and possessing a fortitudinous spirit. For some of the dates it will need to be resolved early that certain grade requirements will be restricted to what is available due to low populations. Without a doubt, the 111-piece complete set of "CC" coins is in a class by itself. There is only one choice for rating the achievement level of the one person who accomplished the goal: Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. is enshrined as a Hall of Famer in the hallowed halls of numismatics.
1876-CC Liberty Seated Half Dollar MS66+ CAC
This is the second upgrade to the 1876-CC half dollar. In an update that I posted August of last year, he replaced his 1876-CC MS64 18/20, with an 1876-CC MS65+ 4/6 CAC. Now, with this second upgrade, the set has the one of the finest. PCGS Expert Ron Guth describes the coin as: In 1876, employees at the Carson City Mint produced a record number of nearly two million Half Dollars, a number they would never meet or exceed again. From a relative standpoint, this makes the 1876-CC Half Dollar a common to semi-scarce coin, but it always commands a premium in the market because of the mintmark on the reverse. PCGS has certified scores of Mint State examples between MS63 and MS64. Gems are rare but not extraordinarily so. Anything better than MS65 is a condition-rarity. Many 1876-CC Half Dollars show a frosty or creamy luster. Conversely, there are quite very few Prooflilke examples. One example has been called a Proof, though the market gave it no grand premium when it sold as part of the George Byers Collection in 2006. In a 1991 certification letter, Walter Breen called the coin a Proof. Bill Bugert discusses this coin (and other Prooflike 1876-CC Half Dollars) in his book, "A Register of Liberty Seated Half Dollar Varieties, Volume 2: Carson City Brtanch Mint." Though Bugert comes short of calling the coin a Proof, he agrees "...it does have proof-like qualities" and that "...this coin may have been prepared specially for the centennial celebrations of the founding of the United States of America." The existence of Proof 1876-CC Dimes makes the possibility of a Proof 1876-CC Half Dollar a tantalizing
The coin was purchased in a recent Legend’s auction. According to Coin Facts, the coin set a auction record for the date and mint at $31,725. It would nice to know how many auction record coins Hansen has acquired. The coin was purchased in Legend’s Regency Auction 33 on 6/27/2019. The headline description was The SOLE FINEST KNOWN to PCGS, this is a stunning and totally ORIGINAL, Premium Quality GEM. Everything about this coin is high end!. I wonder if it is the sole finest known to Bruce? Note: The PCGS Condition Census lists a MS67 estimated grade specimen with no other details. The Legend description give no clues to the history of this coin. The way lot was written it appear Legend was unable to determine the last appearance. Possessing a classic, old time collection look, this beauty has a warm, pearly pewter-silver glow in the central obverse, ringed by honey-gold, coppery-amber, and aqua-teal at the rims. The reverse is a satiny teal-tinged pearly pewter with light lilac accents. Every detail is struck up with razor-like sharpness; fully and crisply rendered by a precision blow from the dies. This is the Small CC variety. The reverse shows a network of spidery die cracks that essentially encircle that side. This coin has a classic look, reminiscent of many old time, classic collections. We can tell you that it is not the Eliasberg, Newman, Gardner, nor Battleborn Collection. The curious specialist could spend hours searching old auction catalogs trying to find this GEM, but we have not been able to locate previous auction appearances. PCGS 7, NGC 2, CAC 5. This is the ONLY MS66+ and it has never sold in auction before. The Gardner coin, which was the most recent PCGS/CAC MS66 (non-+), sold for $17,625 in October 2014. The Battleborn coin sold in the 2012 ANA auction for $18,800 (also a non+ PCGS CAC MS66). The uncertified Eliasberg coin, which Bowers & Merena called MS66 and was not graded sold for $25,300 in April 1997. Unpriced in the PCGS Price Guide, this stunning GEM should bring a serious bid from anyone building a top set of Seated half dollars or Carson City coinages. We can see this one bringing a world record price and is bound for a world class set!
PCGS Price Guide Value for this coin is $35,000. Amazingly, Hansen was able to acquire the coin at a lower bid. I did not think that was possible anymore. A very nice PCGS POP 1/0 CAC upgrade at a fair price, maybe?
Provenance: Unknown
In comparing to Eliasberg, his collection had an estimated grade MS66, Ex: Richard B. Winsor Collection; S.H. and H. Chapman; J.M. Clapp; John H. Clapp; Clapp Estate; Louis E. Eliasberg Sr. (1942). Sold by Bowers & Merena Apr '97 price realized $25,300. Lot #2038.
1876-CC Liberty Seated Half Dollar MS66+ (Gold Shield) Certification #04026905, PCGS #6353, CAC PCGS Price Guide Value: $35,000
My notes on the Eliasberg coin are very succinct: “wow!” There is an estimated ms67 on the condition census at CoinFacts. That more than likely means it graded MS68 at NGC in 1997....and is by far the finest known.
In comparing to Eliasberg, his collection had an estimated grade MS66, Ex: Richard B. Winsor Collection; S.H. and H. Chapman; J.M. Clapp; John H. Clapp; Clapp Estate; Louis E. Eliasberg Sr. (1942). Sold by Bowers & Merena Apr '97 price realized $25,300. Lot #2038.
1876-CC Liberty Seated Half Dollar MS66+ (Gold Shield) Certification #04026905, PCGS #6353, CAC PCGS Price Guide Value: $35,000
Amazing coin! Thanks for posting it @Currin. Part of what I love about this is that this collection is adding a provenance to high-grade classic coins across the board. It's amazing that we don't know the provenance for this yet. I wonder if any sleuthing can figure it out?!
@washingtonrainbows said:
The excitement of this thread has suffered since restrictions were placed. Opposing opinions should be welcomed not banned.
I'm actually okay with the new format as I can actually still see posts with coins! I think a lot of the previous "excitement" was a distraction, which is okay once or twice, but it got to be too much since it was happening with almost every coin posted.
I haven't been posting as much lately because I've been busy, not because of the different format in this thread.
@tradedollarnut said:
My notes on the Eliasberg coin are very succinct: “wow!” There is an estimated ms67 on the condition census at CoinFacts. That more than likely means it graded MS68 at NGC in 1997....and is by far the finest known.
NGC lists 2 graded higher than the PCGS top pop, a MS68 and a MS67. I wonder which one, if either, is the Eliasberg coin? Anyone know how to find out and also find out if the NGC MS68 and NGC MS67 are CAC?
@tradedollarnut said:
My notes on the Eliasberg coin are very succinct: “wow!” There is an estimated ms67 on the condition census at CoinFacts. That more than likely means it graded MS68 at NGC in 1997....and is by far the finest known.
NGC lists 2 graded higher than the PCGS top pop, a MS68 and a MS67. I wonder which one, if either, is the Eliasberg coin? Anyone know how to find out and also find out if the NGC MS68 and NGC MS67 are CAC?
I saw an interesting comment on a recent David Lawrence commentary about "Coins we love". John Brush states "Now, you may have read about these two exorbitant purchases in recent weeks as it's been over the news, but the record breaking 1931-S and 1938-S dimes are now part of the Hansen Collection. There's been much criticism regarding the 'value' on these as well, but the part that is unknown by most is that we've been offered a profit on the coins already. So, criticism aside, there's a far more interesting and longer story about these two pieces that deserves to be told, but for another time."
Always like to hear from people who actually know what is going on and looking forward to hearing the "longer story."
Comments
I think that’s going a bit far. I think it’s fine to recognize nice, ungraded coins but I don’t see anything wrong with “finest graded”. It’s honest and clear in meaning.
Why spend 7 or 8 figures on a 1933 double eagle, knowing that it could be possible there are 5,000 unknown examples in some govt vault.
I trust you that the raw coin is better, but it's also irrelevant considering it sounds like it's getting buried in 20-30 years.
Hey - he says I’m in his will to buy it from his estate. If so, one day it will all be revealed
It’s not bologna if a coin is described as “finest graded” and it is the finest/highest graded. In that scenario, the condition of raw coins is irrelevant. But it might be bologna if the coin is described as “finest known” and there are raw coins which people think or know are finer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Even with numbers on a holder, the debates continue.
I wonder how many coins that are true finest known are still raw (only considering non modern coins)? I would guess the percentage is miniscule.
“Finest graded” may indicate finest known to the uneducated collector.
If it’s accurate, it’s not bologna, even if the uneducated collector takes it the wrong way. How would you note the population of a highest-graded coin?
Edited the add: For the record, I do prefer “highest graded” to “finest graded”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
All I’m saying is that just because a coin is not slabbed doesn’t mean that it is not the finest known or at the very least finer that something that is slabbed.
Back to the Hansen collection thread.
@Currin I missed it, but what does Hansen own with half cents?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
All that is indicating is that the uneducated collector needs to educate him or herself. The term is accurate.
Would you suggest no one use the term “finest known” since an uneducated collector could take that to mean the finest known to and graded by a TPG?
This is getting a little off track. The historic statement for the Eliasberg 1885 Trade is Finest by Far of Just Five Known. Period!
I believe statement at at the Eliasberg sale was for a MS65 raw coin. I not sure why TPG is being drawn into this discussion. It just confusing the discussion.
A TPG by PCGS could make the claim more legitimate, but that is the only value they could play in this discussion.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
This is just auction description hype, not historic or really expected to be accurate.
Finest graded in a slab, sure.
But not finest known to the experts.
It's a part of the hobby that some collectors suppress information on the coins they own.
This does create challenges for the auction catalogers and those writing rosters.
It is more fun to study the coins when all the info is freely shared,
but sometimes we don't get that.
The quality of the Eliasberg 1885 T$1 relative to the raw coin was definitely discussed in the leadup to the auction.
Not simply after it sold.
Thread started 2018-11-26
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009564/1885-and-1884-trade-dollars-at-auction-each-pr-66-ex-eliasberg/p1
@tradedollarnut posted later on the same day:
And the auction closed 2019-01-10 .
Although it's true that sometimes @specialist posted after Hansen bought a coin that there was one she liked better (sometimes it was one he already had). She was mostly just sharing what she observed and judged when comparing the top coins.
P.S. I hope this does not feel negative to you.
I appreciate your great ongoing work on this thread.
Sometimes I will offer what I feel are corrections like this one, though.
That could also be added to auction results! Funny how people think they can reference a piece of crap compared to a nice coin with coin facts! I'm going through that now and there will be no sale!
I wouldn’t say this is necessarily just auction hype.
It could certainly be the finest known to the cataloger. While a handful experts have seen a coin they deem finer, many have not. TDN didn't even see the finer one for over 10 years after hearing about it and not believing it. The finer, raw coin also isn't listed in the PCGS CoinFacts Condition Census.
The trick with "finest known" is known to whom?
I always thought "bologna" was lunchmeat and "baloney" was goofing around.
Respectfully, if I were Mr Hansen I would offer to trade the Starr 1884 straight across for the Eliasberg 1884. There’s more value in the pair being together than there is in owning the finest graded. Both historical and monetary...
This is interesting to think about, especially after the discussion that the Eliasberg 1885 is not the finest known. Perhaps the 2 finest knowns, Starr 1884 and Menjou 1885, should be paired as well? Of course the Menjou 1885 was also owned by Clint Hester who owned the 2nd finest 1884 so perhaps the 2 Clint Hester specimens could be paired again as well.
That is an interesting idea. I also wonder if he has considered the possibility of buying/keeping both of them.
I've worked at several TPGS. I've always treated coins of ANY value the same and very carefully as if they belonged to me.
They do until I pass them on to another grader!
To this day, I still don't want anyone touching any of my raw coins. Go figure what that's all about.
Perhaps that's why the coin is still raw.
I'm going to put you in mine. My 1941 - 58 circulated Lincoln cents will be yours for free one day.
Not available. The guy that owns it has more $ than he does, too. But I have to think that would be a win-win trade.
I'm just curious, at what point does it become the Hansen 1884?
Oh, in about 50 years if he keeps at it. I call my own 1794 the Carter coin.
I call it the Cardinal-Morelan coin
I agree that it would be fascinating to see the Eliasberg coins together; however, I would much rather have the Starr coin than the next two down. The Eliasberg (NGC PF66) is nice, but it looks to have had an old dip. I know some will find the Starr coin to be a little dark, but I enjoy its originality. Unless there are more coins hiding in the wood work, it is his only opportunity to own an original gem/superb gem specimen. (The Jack Lee PF65 coin was dipped blast white). I really like the the Lee and Eliasberg coins, but if given the option, I'd rather have the most original one.
My point being that the Eliasberg 1885 will most likely lose 10-15% of its value once it’s no longer the finest graded...the way to retain its value is to have the matched pair. The $ you’d give up on the 1884 is less and historically the value is through the roof
That’s one reason I sold the 1885....I figured the ‘finest known’ premium was gonna go away.
I remember JB saying that Mr. Hansen is very pleased and happy with his pair (1884,1885). I don’t think value or price will be a significant factor of the pair that will be known for this set. I think it will be more owner preference than anything else. Eliasberg sold his finest 1894-S dime and kept a lower technical graded specimen. We are just guessing what Hansen specimens will be represented in his final sets.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Mr. Hansen has a strong passion to obtain the highest graded Lincoln Cents. He owns the 3 highest graded 1917 DDO examples.
He has also spent app. $ 250K
to obtain them .
Just hit 100k views! Congrats @Currin
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
Thanks!
Can you believe we reached 100K views today? For about 15 months, the thread has sustained a constant viewership. This is only due to the many of you that watch the Hansen thread daily, weekly or monthly. I hope we can keep it interesting, educational, as well as entertaining. We had some topics that have led to controversy. I think this is OK as long as we can keep it civil. Hannah Boyd’s expectations are to keep comments positive and not compare dealers and/or other collectors. I don’t think that is too much to ask due to we are allowed to use this this venue free of any cost. Now, let’s talk about The Great Collection.
The last update was at 75K in the first week of April, just over 3 months ago. I usually start with the misses. I do not recall any significant misses in what I think JB would call “must haves”. With August 2019 ANA Auctions just a few weeks away, I know the opportunity will be there for some nice additions. The only countdown coin that I am aware that will be offered by one of The Major Auction houses will be the 1894-s Dime. We could have an interesting conversation about this one.
Eliasberg Quest (classic style)
The Eliasberg Quest is D.L. Hansen attempt to match or exceed Louis Eliasberg. If you have watched for a while now, you may recall a great deal of discussion around what success would look like. If success is that Hansen must match Eliasberg on having a specimen of every year and mint US issue coin, then I have provided what I call the countdown list. There are presently 21 coins on this list. As stated, only coin from this list that I know is being offered at ANA is the 1894-s. If you know of other specimens, please share with the community.
There are 21 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 13 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S XF45 Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10
1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection)
1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection)
1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA)
1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection)
1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased)
1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned)
1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 9
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8)
1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9)
1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13)
1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
Last 2
1840-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 65)
1854-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 75)
Hansen Challenge
As stated last time, it appear to me, Hansen is on a mission to collect every date, mint mark, major variety, and proof in the US issues from 1793-Present (or as close to every coin as possible). With the 2018 issues, we are talking about approx. 6300 coins. The Hansen Collection master set reached 92.7% as of today. This is a massive effort that maybe no one has ever made a serious attempt to achieve before. PCGS has a registry set that represents this effort.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/complete-sets/master-sets/u-s-coins-complete-set-major-varieties-circulation-strikes-proof-1792-present/3072
This colossal set is approx. 6300 coins that increase every year. PCGS describes the set as: Every U.S. coin in Circulation Strike and Proof from 1792 to present, every date, every Mintmark, every major variety, this set is the ultimate challenge. A collection of this size could take years to assemble. The collector who completes this set in high grade would make numismatic history. Are you up to the challenge? Hansen continues to chip away at this overall set. He added 45 new coins in the last three months. I think the set could be completed to approx. 99.9%. It is going to interesting to watch and see how close he can meet the Hansen Challenge.
.
Breakdown of the Hansen Challenge
CS Pre 1964 Basic – 10 coins left (no change)
CS Pre 1964 Major Varieties - 51 coins left (down 5 from last update)
CS Modern (including Major Varieties) – 108 coins left (down 17 from last update)
Note: 30 2018 -2019 Updates added to set.
Proof Pre 1964 (including Major Varieties) – 300 coins left (down 33 from last update)
Proof Modern (including Major Varieties) – 1 coin left (no change)
Total – approx. 459 coins left of 6300. Roughly – 92.7%. (Added approx. 45 coins since the last update)
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Who's Hannah?
Heather Boyd, sorry for incorrect name.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Interesting all three sold since Hansen began his set (including two of the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels), but he interestingly chose to pass. (Or more accurately as you pointed out he sold his partial interest in the 1854-S $5.) I wonder what his strategy was here or if he simply believed the coins to be overpriced.
No collector "owes" the community any information about what they own, what grade it is, or what it looks like.
It's nice if they share (a la Hansen) but we shouldn't think differently of anyone if they wish to remain private.
I have been thinking about this the last several days. I know you mentioned the ungraded 1885 Trade Dollar in older threads here, but is it (and an accurate grade) referenced in Trade Dollar reference books already? In other words, how well known is the existence of a higher graded 1885? If it is well known to be a better coin, I wonder if the possibility of the new coin coming to light is already baked into the existing premium. You make a very good and interesting point.
Edited for clarification.
It’s already in the Heritage, but not CoinFacts, Condition Census, though I haven’t seen any pics of it.
Of note, I was just looking at the Eliasberg 1885 TD on HA and noticed that they are already referring to the Carter 1885 as the "Simpson Specimen".
I also like how Heritage's "Make Offer to Owner" is turned on for the Eliasberg-Hansen coin
Zions, One of the 1885 Trades in roster is the MS62 PCGS in Driftwood’s Registry set. I am not sure if the coin is Farouk or Olsen specimen. I assume it to be Farouk with the NGC crossed over.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
1876-CC "Carson City" Half Dollar Upgrade...again
It has been almost a year since we had a good discussion on the Hansen’s Carson City set. In several ways, Carson City coins are very special in a historic sense. If you are not an historic person, that’s OK, because I think you can still enjoy these coins. I read somewhere many years ago that suggested when CC coins were first being minted, they really were not thought to be collectable. In the late 19th century, the coins minted at Philadelphia were being collected, but not the branch mint coins. The west mint coins may have even been even less collected. If anyone has any real facts to added, please feel free to do so.
From a registry perspective, there are not a lot of serious participants. Hansen is setting on top of the registry (100% completed by PCGS Basic set standards). The 2nd place set has been active for more than a decade. The 2nd place set is a very nice registry set with only one coin tied for finest, a PCGS POP 24/0. The GPA Weighted is 53.51, as I stated before, this is a very nice certified 98% complete Carson City set. The third place set is from the Legend stable. It is presently only 71.93% completed, but the GPA Weighted is out of this world for CC at 60.464. In comparison, Hansen’s GPA Weighted is 58.666. Hansen has a hand full of circulated coin that if replaced at some point will improve his weighted average.
The Carson City set is best known to require 111 coins. The registry requires three additional major varieties that bring the total up to 114. In reality, for a complete set the Unique 1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime is required. Naturally, Eliasberg had this coin and a comprehensive complete set. I think the only other set that has been assembled to this degree of completeness was by Battle Born. Can anyone verify that statement? This is what PCGS says about the CC set: Rare coins, of course, offer an excellent opportunity for people to collect and preserve the past; and Carson City coins in particular are quintessential reminders of not only the Old West era but also of the Gilded Age; and the various coinage acts of 1873, 1878, and 1890. When a collector allows himself to get caught up into the specialized field of Carson City coins, he will practically fall in love with the series: doors will be opened to the history of one of the most exciting and critical periods America has ever known. And the background of the coins with the "CC" mintmark is the stuff movie scripts are inspired by. There is no grander way to collect U.S. coins than with the Complete 111-piece set of coins from the "people's choice" for U.S. mints. Success in completing the set is conditioned, of course, upon a person being well financed, patient, and possessing a fortitudinous spirit. For some of the dates it will need to be resolved early that certain grade requirements will be restricted to what is available due to low populations. Without a doubt, the 111-piece complete set of "CC" coins is in a class by itself. There is only one choice for rating the achievement level of the one person who accomplished the goal: Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. is enshrined as a Hall of Famer in the hallowed halls of numismatics.
1876-CC Liberty Seated Half Dollar MS66+ CAC
This is the second upgrade to the 1876-CC half dollar. In an update that I posted August of last year, he replaced his 1876-CC MS64 18/20, with an 1876-CC MS65+ 4/6 CAC. Now, with this second upgrade, the set has the one of the finest. PCGS Expert Ron Guth describes the coin as: In 1876, employees at the Carson City Mint produced a record number of nearly two million Half Dollars, a number they would never meet or exceed again. From a relative standpoint, this makes the 1876-CC Half Dollar a common to semi-scarce coin, but it always commands a premium in the market because of the mintmark on the reverse. PCGS has certified scores of Mint State examples between MS63 and MS64. Gems are rare but not extraordinarily so. Anything better than MS65 is a condition-rarity. Many 1876-CC Half Dollars show a frosty or creamy luster. Conversely, there are quite very few Prooflilke examples. One example has been called a Proof, though the market gave it no grand premium when it sold as part of the George Byers Collection in 2006. In a 1991 certification letter, Walter Breen called the coin a Proof. Bill Bugert discusses this coin (and other Prooflike 1876-CC Half Dollars) in his book, "A Register of Liberty Seated Half Dollar Varieties, Volume 2: Carson City Brtanch Mint." Though Bugert comes short of calling the coin a Proof, he agrees "...it does have proof-like qualities" and that "...this coin may have been prepared specially for the centennial celebrations of the founding of the United States of America." The existence of Proof 1876-CC Dimes makes the possibility of a Proof 1876-CC Half Dollar a tantalizing
The coin was purchased in a recent Legend’s auction. According to Coin Facts, the coin set a auction record for the date and mint at $31,725. It would nice to know how many auction record coins Hansen has acquired. The coin was purchased in Legend’s Regency Auction 33 on 6/27/2019. The headline description was The SOLE FINEST KNOWN to PCGS, this is a stunning and totally ORIGINAL, Premium Quality GEM. Everything about this coin is high end!. I wonder if it is the sole finest known to Bruce? Note: The PCGS Condition Census lists a MS67 estimated grade specimen with no other details. The Legend description give no clues to the history of this coin. The way lot was written it appear Legend was unable to determine the last appearance. Possessing a classic, old time collection look, this beauty has a warm, pearly pewter-silver glow in the central obverse, ringed by honey-gold, coppery-amber, and aqua-teal at the rims. The reverse is a satiny teal-tinged pearly pewter with light lilac accents. Every detail is struck up with razor-like sharpness; fully and crisply rendered by a precision blow from the dies. This is the Small CC variety. The reverse shows a network of spidery die cracks that essentially encircle that side. This coin has a classic look, reminiscent of many old time, classic collections. We can tell you that it is not the Eliasberg, Newman, Gardner, nor Battleborn Collection. The curious specialist could spend hours searching old auction catalogs trying to find this GEM, but we have not been able to locate previous auction appearances. PCGS 7, NGC 2, CAC 5. This is the ONLY MS66+ and it has never sold in auction before. The Gardner coin, which was the most recent PCGS/CAC MS66 (non-+), sold for $17,625 in October 2014. The Battleborn coin sold in the 2012 ANA auction for $18,800 (also a non+ PCGS CAC MS66). The uncertified Eliasberg coin, which Bowers & Merena called MS66 and was not graded sold for $25,300 in April 1997. Unpriced in the PCGS Price Guide, this stunning GEM should bring a serious bid from anyone building a top set of Seated half dollars or Carson City coinages. We can see this one bringing a world record price and is bound for a world class set!
PCGS Price Guide Value for this coin is $35,000. Amazingly, Hansen was able to acquire the coin at a lower bid. I did not think that was possible anymore. A very nice PCGS POP 1/0 CAC upgrade at a fair price, maybe?
Provenance: Unknown
In comparing to Eliasberg, his collection had an estimated grade MS66, Ex: Richard B. Winsor Collection; S.H. and H. Chapman; J.M. Clapp; John H. Clapp; Clapp Estate; Louis E. Eliasberg Sr. (1942). Sold by Bowers & Merena Apr '97 price realized $25,300. Lot #2038.
1876-CC Liberty Seated Half Dollar MS66+ (Gold Shield)
Certification #04026905, PCGS #6353, CAC
PCGS Price Guide Value: $35,000
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
My notes on the Eliasberg coin are very succinct: “wow!” There is an estimated ms67 on the condition census at CoinFacts. That more than likely means it graded MS68 at NGC in 1997....and is by far the finest known.
That is a beautiful 76-CC half. Would love to see it in hand.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Amazing coin! Thanks for posting it @Currin. Part of what I love about this is that this collection is adding a provenance to high-grade classic coins across the board. It's amazing that we don't know the provenance for this yet. I wonder if any sleuthing can figure it out?!
I'm actually okay with the new format as I can actually still see posts with coins! I think a lot of the previous "excitement" was a distraction, which is okay once or twice, but it got to be too much since it was happening with almost every coin posted.
I haven't been posting as much lately because I've been busy, not because of the different format in this thread.
NGC lists 2 graded higher than the PCGS top pop, a MS68 and a MS67. I wonder which one, if either, is the Eliasberg coin? Anyone know how to find out and also find out if the NGC MS68 and NGC MS67 are CAC?
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/seated-liberty-half-dollars-pscid-40/1876-cc-50c-ms-coinid-16353
@zoins old buddy I’m 2.4K behind and this thing won’t die how about catching me up Brother
Jabba
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
I saw an interesting comment on a recent David Lawrence commentary about "Coins we love". John Brush states "Now, you may have read about these two exorbitant purchases in recent weeks as it's been over the news, but the record breaking 1931-S and 1938-S dimes are now part of the Hansen Collection. There's been much criticism regarding the 'value' on these as well, but the part that is unknown by most is that we've been offered a profit on the coins already. So, criticism aside, there's a far more interesting and longer story about these two pieces that deserves to be told, but for another time."
Always like to hear from people who actually know what is going on and looking forward to hearing the "longer story."