We offered $15 million on behalf of Mr Simspon for j-1776. The guy laughed at us. Its in a trust for the current owners grand kids. No one will get it for a very long time.
Mr Simpson still wins-he owns the amazonians in all metals (the gold set is easily worth $12-$15 million)!!!!! Pick a non unique gold pattern (most have 2 minted), he owns them all! He turned down $5 million for the monster $10 1804 gold he has. If that does not make him all time #1, he owns things like a copper school girl PR68 RD!!!!!! Good luck to anyone else. Go for it Delloy.
BTW, a few of Black Cats pattern will be on display at the ANA SHow-in the ANA museum section.
It’s interesting Simpson doesn’t seem to have a 1792 Half Disme which makes the comparison a bit less interesting given the significance of the coin and that Hansen does have one.
While Simpson has a very impressive pattern collection and Hansen has few patterns right now, it’s interesting that a number of Hansen’s are not currently present in the Simpson set: J-7, J-862, J-869, J-914, J-952, J-972, J-977, J-987, and J-988. The J-7 Half Disme being the most significant omission. I wonder if Simpson will try for a more complete pattern set?
For Hansen’s quest, I think coins like the 1792 Half Disme, 1792 Silver Center Cent, and the Coiled and Flowing Hair Stellas are important. These are all in his collection now.
I will add to my poll post. I would choose Hanson. Why, you ask? Because it is a diversified collection spread across the board and is most likely to hold it's value overall or improve it's value than the other specialist collections. I know the big dogs will rip me apart for this but that's my belief!
@amwldcoin said:
I will add to my poll post. I would choose Hanson. Why, you ask? Because it is a diversified collection spread across the board and is most likely to hold it's value overall or improve it's value than the other specialist collections. I know the big dogs will rip me apart for this but that's my belief!
@amwldcoin said:
I will add to my poll post. I would choose Hanson. Why, you ask? Because it is a diversified collection spread across the board and is most likely to hold it's value overall or improve it's value than the other specialist collections. I know the big dogs will rip me apart for this but that's my belief!
Have you studied Eliasberg? Own the catalogs?
Yes. I have. The bulk of Eliasberg’s collection is not impressive. The Top 100 and Top 10 are very impressive. I would agree, Hansen has some work to do to reach the level of Eliasberg for the top coins. If you compare series, Eliasberg is not as impressive as Hansen. The Mercury series that is being discussed is a prime example. If I could to choose, I would choose Eliasberg Top 100 coins and the remaining 10,000 coins would be from Hansen’s collection. As you have said before, that could change over time.
@amwldcoin said:
I will add to my poll post. I would choose Hanson. Why, you ask? Because it is a diversified collection spread across the board and is most likely to hold it's value overall or improve it's value than the other specialist collections. I know the big dogs will rip me apart for this but that's my belief!
@amwldcoin said:
I think this would be a great Poll! If you had a choice....which collection would the forum members here like to own?
1 Hanson
2 Simpson
3 Black Cat
4 Other
My vote would be Hanson. Of course, I'm a US-federal-issues, minted-for-circulation, date & MM guy. I generally avoid proofs, patterns, varieties, foreign coins, currency and other ancillary aspects of our hobby--probably a hold-over from my youth where my goal was to fill the Whitman coin books.
However, I would appreciate some insight on the attraction of patterns. I had never heard much about them until I started following this Forum, and what I did hear, I ignored as I considered them a small and insignificant part of "coin collecting". But reading some of your posts, one would think collection federal issue coins would be secondary to patterns (ie: coin collecting is the tail being wagged by the "dog" of pattern collecting). Obviously, there is something to them, given the expensive and extensive collections out there--so what am I missing? What makes patterns so desirable to collect as opposed to federally issued coins? And given that this Forum is geared toward the Hanson collection, why would his lack of an appropriate number of patterns lessen his collection in many of your eyes? Thanks for your input.
@amwldcoin said:
I will add to my poll post. I would choose Hanson. Why, you ask? Because it is a diversified collection spread across the board and is most likely to hold it's value overall or improve it's value than the other specialist collections. I know the big dogs will rip me apart for this but that's my belief!
Have you studied Eliasberg? Own the catalogs?
Yes. I have. The bulk of Eliasberg’s collection is not impressive. The Top 100 and Top 10 are very impressive. I would agree, Hansen has some work to do to reach the level of Eliasberg for the top coins. If you compare series, Eliasberg is not as impressive as Hansen. The Mercury series that is being discussed is a prime example. If I could to choose, I would choose Eliasberg Top 100 coins and the remaining 10,000 coins would be from Hansen’s collection. As you have said before, that could change over time.
Meh. Collecting to me is a personal pursuit. Not who can bench press the most. Not saying I don’t appreciate each of these great collections. They are are marvel. I’m not a completist so what appeals to me may not resonate the same to others. I’d gravitate towards the coolest coins. Simpson or Tryant would be hard to pick from for me.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I believe all of these collections are truly amazing in the own way. Each collector is passionate about different aspects of American numismatics. I don't believe they are actually competing with each other because the themes running through the collection are so obviously varied. For myself, early American silver is the theme, although I'm also passionate about Fugio Cents and early patterns. Not really competing with anyone else focused on those broad themes. Of course, In individual sets such as Capped Bust Halves date sets, there is very intense, focused competition.
I believe we should celebrate Dell Loy's efforts and his Elliasberg quest. Its an amazing journey to watch unfold. I also admire Bob Simpson's collection replete with unbelievable American treasure. These two sets of respective enthusiasms create no conflict in me whatsoever. Of course, we all know and love the collections of many other collectors think High Desert and Oliver type sets, Bruce's early dollars or the international Tyrant collection for examples. Dell Loy is a relative newcomer having shared his dream publically with everyone now over only about three years so far, but I have a suspicion he might achieve his goals some day with patience and time and opportunity.
Not everyone likes the same type of coins, and that's just fine by me. One of my favorite coins is the 1814 platinum half dollar with P's stamped all over it and the word "platina" etched into the reverse. Some people find it genuinely unattractive, but i find her amazing and awesome.
So let's enjoy this historic thread...C'est la vie! Let's have some more fun now.
John Brush bought Eliasberg’s pipe at an auction and took a photo with me and the pipe. I thought that was a fun piece of history I now share with the esteemed Mr. Eliasberg. I appreciate Mr Currin’s Blog known as Hansen Watch. it is a joy to observe his deep study comparing Elias-berg’s coins to the ones I am assembling. I learn a great deal from his research and comparisons. I look forward to having Mr Currin looking more closely at the Collection. I hope to get true view photos of the coins lacking pictures soon. Collecting is personal to each collector I honor profoundly the numerous great collectors both past and present. Let’s together celebrate our shared hobby and enjoy each other’s Numisnastic crusades. Onward and upward in seeking our individual goals. D. L. Hansen
@DLHansen said:
John Brush bought Eliasberg’s pipe at an auction and took a photo with me and the pipe. I thought that was a fun piece of history I now share with the esteemed Mr. Eliasberg. I appreciate Mr Currin’s Blog known as Hansen Watch. it is a joy to observe his deep study comparing Elias-berg’s coins to the ones I am assembling. I learn a great deal from his research and comparisons. I look forward to having Mr Currin looking more closely at the Collection. I hope to get true view photos of the coins lacking pictures soon. Collecting is personal to each collector I honor profoundly the numerous great collectors both past and present. Let’s together celebrate our shared hobby and enjoy each other’s Numisnastic crusades. Onward and upward in seeking our individual goals. D. L. Hansen
It's great to see you here. I hope you stick around and continue to post. It would be neat to hear your thoughts on your new purchases and insight from time to time. Maybe someone will turn it into a book on the formation of the greatest U.S. coin collection of all time.
@DLHansen said:
John Brush bought Eliasberg’s pipe at an auction and took a photo with me and the pipe. I thought that was a fun piece of history I now share with the esteemed Mr. Eliasberg. I appreciate Mr Currin’s Blog known as Hansen Watch. it is a joy to observe his deep study comparing Elias-berg’s coins to the ones I am assembling. I learn a great deal from his research and comparisons. I look forward to having Mr Currin looking more closely at the Collection. I hope to get true view photos of the coins lacking pictures soon. Collecting is personal to each collector I honor profoundly the numerous great collectors both past and present. Let’s together celebrate our shared hobby and enjoy each other’s Numisnastic crusades. Onward and upward in seeking our individual goals. D. L. Hansen
It's great to see you here. Love your profile picture! See you in Chicago!
I have noticed over the year in posting this thread, sometimes people will misinterpret or twist a comment to fit their narrative. My meaning of bonanza in this posting is “a situation or event that creates a sudden increase in wealth, good fortune, or profits”. This actually occurred for the Mercury Dime series in Legend’s Regency 33 Auction that was held June 27 in Las Vegas, NV. When the final hammer fell, Hansen purchased four Mercury Dimes and two of them smashed auction records that has shaken the numismatics community. Hansen spent a record of more than $680,500 on four Mercury Dimes. Regency 33 featured 43 Mercury dimes for sale with majority of them being coins that Hansen presently has better specimens. So from the results, Hansen had a nice budget for Mercury Dimes and appears that he focused his spending on four coins.
After this historic event, I have taken the opportunity to dig a little deeper into the Mercury Dime series. It appears that something in the series may have been brewing for a while. This week the explosion occurred. The Mercury guys may have been more aware, but I have not really noticed before. It appears PCGS may have been a little ahead of the curve. PCGS provide these comments to the series: With the recent auction sale of a PCGS MS66FB 1919-D dime for $212,500 this series is suddenly being looked upon with a new appreciation. The coins of this series have always been popular because of the highly attractive design and the important historical period in which they were struck, but the new price levels are a quantum leap forward. This set can be assembled in circulated grades, low mint state grades, with or without full bands, or a mixture of the above. The message is out, however, that if you wish to build the best set you had better be ready to step up to the plate.
I don’t think stepping up to the plate comes close to describe what happen last Thursday. I don't know the details with the fore mention PCGS MS66FB 1919-D dime. I don’t see the sale in the auctions reports and really don’t know how long ago it took place. The PCGS MS66FB 1919-D dime does not appear to be in Hansen’s collection. If anyone can offer some additional info, it would be appreciated.
These are the four new coins obtained in Thursday’s sale.
1923 PCGS M68FB POP 5/2, Sold at $35,250, Legend Estimate: 12,000 - 15,000, 161% realized.
1931-S PCGS M67+FB POP 1/0, Sold at $270,250, Legend Estimate: 22,000 - 25,000, 1050% realized
1938-S PCGS M68+FB POP 1/0, Sold at $364,750, Legend Estimate: 10,000 - 12,500 3138% realized
1943 PCGS M68FB POP 10/1, Sold at $10,281.25, Legend Estimate: 9,000 - 10,000, 8.2% realized
Again the total paid for the four coins was $680,531.25. The mid-range estimate given for the coins was $57,750. The results of the total final bids to be approximately 1078%. That is a pretty good reach that requires a considerable amount of determination that the purchase will not be denied. This is why I just consider the source when I hear claims that some coins are out of Hansen's reach. If he is determined to buy, he will, as seen in this sale and with the 1885 Trade Dollar when he left his opponents asking themselves what just happened.
1938-S Mercury Dime MS68+ FB
This coin (and a sister coin) turned out to be the headliner in Legend’s Regency 33 Auction. The coin is the third PCGS MS68+ coin in The Great Collection. It is the first non-1940s MS68+. The finest coin remains to be the 1939-D MS69FB Specimen. I think the new 1938-S will become the center piece now. For what it may be worth, the coin is also a CAC specimen. The auctioneer made these comments on the coin: This is the FINEST KNOWN 1938-S dime seen by PCGS or NGC. To call this coin superb, stunning, gorgeous, beautiful--none of the adjectives convey the outstanding technical and aesthetic qualities of this AMAZING late date Mercury dime. Ultra HIGH END everything. Rich red, orange, gold, magenta, olive, emerald, and icy silver-blue hues are augmented by a strong mint brilliance. Both sides are smooth, clean, and the devices are well struck. Even if you do not collect Mercury dimes you really should take a look at this MONSTER! This is the SOLE example in this grade at PCGS and is the ONLY MS68 FB awarded a green CAC bean. PCGS has not yet estimated at value, so our estimate is conjecture and likely very conservative. We know that a full, drawn out bidding war will erupt to add this WORLD CLASS dime to a world class set. Expect a record price when the hammer falls. Good luck!
This is a gorgeous; amazing coin that Hansen bided big league style to purchase. Was it worth it? Only Hansen can answer that question. Maybe the motivation was larger than the coin itself. We may not ever know. We do know that Eliasberg’s coins in certain modern series were very inferior to the remainder of his great collection. For example in the Mercury series, the last Mercury Dime that was auction was 1931-D MS66. The balance of his Mercury collection was auctioned in 36 piece Lot#1346 in the 1997 sale. Average grade for the lot was given to be MS63.
On the other hand, Hansen is building his collection with PCGS Condition Census coins from early coinage to present (2019). This may be highly contributed to the PCGS registry we have today. For whatever the reason, I see this as a big difference in Hansen’s collection and Eliasberg’s . This may be a small but significant difference, that is being brushed over by many in the community today. If I could ask Hansen one question, it would be do you play chess. Any chess player worth their salt knows the pawns are the big players early in the game. It is later in the game that you bring the big boys out to play. While everyone is talking about and focusing on the Queens that have not shown up yet, Hansen is creating a very powerful pawn position.
1938-S Mercury Dime FB MS68+ FB CAC Certification #37675464, PCGS #5015 PCGS POP 1/0 / PCGS Coin Guide Value: unknown (that is an understatement)
Currin - I was at the auction when the 1919 D in Ms 66 FB sold at the Philadelphia ANA auction
for $212,000. The #1 Mercury dime set at the time was owned by Bill Dominick . His 1919 D was only an MS 65 FB. his wife Gloria wanted to buy it for him as a present. She went to the front row and started bidding while Bill Dominick was in the back of the room. She never stopped bidding against a phone bidder.. when the bids reached about $180,000 Bill Dominick ran to the front Row and proceeded to put his wife’s arm down.
The phone bidder who won that coin was Gerry Forsythe.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Currin - I was at the auction when the 1919 D in Ms 66 FB sold at the Philadelphia ANA auction
for $212,000. The #1 Mercury dime set at the time was owned by Bill Dominick . His 1919 D was only an MS 65 FB. his wife Gloria wanted to buy it for him as a present. She went to the front row and started bidding while Bill Dominick was in the back of the room. She never stopped bidding against a phone bidder.. when the bids reached about $180,000 Bill Dominick ran to the front Row and proceeded to put his wife’s arm down.
The phone bidder who won that coin was Gerry Forsythe.
Thanks for the first hand story. Is this coin considered the best of the six certified MS66? What year was the auction? I can not find the sale in the auction reports. RIC
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Currin - I was at the auction when the 1919 D in Ms 66 FB sold at the Philadelphia ANA auction
for $212,000. The #1 Mercury dime set at the time was owned by Bill Dominick . His 1919 D was only an MS 65 FB. his wife Gloria wanted to buy it for him as a present. She went to the front row and started bidding while Bill Dominick was in the back of the room. She never stopped bidding against a phone bidder.. when the bids reached about $180,000 Bill Dominick ran to the front Row and proceeded to put his wife’s arm down.
The phone bidder who won that coin was Gerry Forsythe.
Some say his feet never touched the ground on that sprint to the front row. Sounds like the wife and not the coin was the keeper
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
It was not considered the finest but right up there. The coin was part of a senator from New Jersey’s collection. About 20 years ago.o
Is the Senator’s name public? Would be a nice provenance.
John Brush bought Eliasberg’s pipe at an auction and took a photo with me and the pipe. I thought that was a fun piece of history I now share with the esteemed Mr. Eliasberg.
The torch has been passed!
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
It was not considered the finest but right up there. The coin was part of a senator from New Jersey’s collection. About 20 years ago.o
Is the Senator’s name public? Would be a nice provenance.
You've never been to NJ, have you?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
It was not considered the finest but right up there. The coin was part of a senator from New Jersey’s collection. About 20 years ago.o
Is the Senator’s name public? Would be a nice provenance.
You've never been to NJ, have you?
Not since I got back into collecting. Cory Booker is the only NJ Senator I know of any fame. Should I know of any others?
I do not believe Patterns matter nor the 1913 Nickel. Who cares about the Nickel? DLH did not.
Yes top coin and rarity but so what. Quality and eye appeal of a large or huge group of coins outweigh one coin.
It is difficult to compare collectors of different eras just like with ball players.
I do not think the Patterns matter at all. Most patterns have LITTLE collector interest. It would be difficult to sell over 75% of major collections. Laura had one for years and took nice losses. To me Patterns are not part of a basic US Coin Collection.
DLH needs to do three things.
1. Continue to buy top pops or coins that are tied for the top. If he buys another 200 or more that says lots.
Improve his collection to at least 60% if not more CAC coins. Someone else mentioned this. If not, the grades of the non
CAC coins should be lowered by one to get the total PCGS score that someone posted for his entire holdings.
Replace as many coins as possible with top eye appeal coins. To me this is the most important. If a coin is rare or comes
unattractive so be it. However, if beautiful examples can be found DLH should buy them even in lower grades. When I take a look at a box of my Morgan's or my Bust haves for example and say wow to almost ALL of them, that is special.
Laura and many others will agree with this.
I also have boxes of coins that did not have high enough grades to make my previous or current sets, that have far superior eye appeal than the coins in the set.
On the dimes: Were they worth it? Who cares? Does it really matter? A man has worked hard his entire life and a few years ago fell in love with coins. DLH wanted the best and he paid for them. So what? Is he nuts? Of course not. Sure he he paid X to much, again so what. He has made hundreds of millions if not more and wanted to own the dimes. Good for him. I am not in the same league but I have bought certain things that were far from "worth" it.
What is life all about? If you have your health and family that is wonderful. Then there are things! In this case coins.
where does one draw the line. if it foolish to spend 400K on a car that in three years is worth less than 200k?
How about 4000 suits that are worth zero in while?
Perfection - Have you ever bought any patterns ?
Have you studied how patterns
affected the design and composition of the coins you collect ?
Patterns are extensions of specialized coin collections
I collect the 12 piece short set of pattern flying eagle and Indian Cent
patterns.
I am baffled how you can say
Patterns do not matter at all.
Lastly I hope DLH gets into collecting patterns . I believe he would enjoy the history.
Full collections Laura! Imagine if Hansen, Simpson, and Black Cat were all doing full collections? Not to make Dell Loy’s goal harder but it would be pretty amazing if more people were collecting all series, dates and mintmarks.
What makes Eliasberg's and Dell Loy's collections amazing is not just great coins but that they are/were working on building a complete US coin collection. It's the journey that many enjoy being a part of because the idea of it is so large.
Of course, Simpson, Black Cat and others are already impressive and are great collectors with amazing collections, but there is something magical about a complete collection. That's something I'm not sure you quite grasp here.
Simpson does have many full collections, pr barber 25C, PR STD Dollars, PR TD's, MS G $1 -with many pop 1's. These are all complete. he has lots of collections. How about all his gold especially his HOF $10+20???? He has a 2C set. so many things I can not remember them all. Oh yeah, he has the finest ever MS 3CS set-I didn't have the money to build it for myself, so I asked him and he let me do it. Yeah, he should build sets....
And the kitty, is doing something major. We are not done so I can't comment. Doesn't having the greatest ever MS TD set get a MEWOW? The cat has been in coins 6 months LESS then delloy. I rank him as one of the greatest collectors ever. Oh, I said ONE of the......
This whole thing is really ridiculous. I think its pathetic I have to defend one of the greatest collections ever built (Simspon) because someone is throwing money around like its nothing. One thing Simpson never did-pay 15X for a coin!
I have read this thread from start to where it currently is.
First question, what was the theme of Louis Eliasberg;s collection? Was his goal to assemble a complete collection of United States regular – issue coins?
Are ‘Patterns’ regular – issue United States coins?
It is my understanding that Eliasberg didn’t delineate between business strike and proof coins, as long as he had each date and mint mark.
If Dell Loy Hansen wants to take on the challenge of matching or exceeding Eliasberg, power to him, he has only been at it for a few years and has already made a dent in it.
If Dell Loy Hansen doesn’t want to augment his collection with ‘Patterns’ or ‘Fantasy’ coins, that is up to him, but he could still compete with Esiasberg for a complete collection of United States regular – issue coins without the ‘Patterns’ or ‘Fantasy’ coins.
Will Dell Loy Hansen ever be able to locate and acquire an example of all United States regular issue coins by date and mint mark, unknown but I for one will be rooting for him.
I do find it humorous when I read a post that Hansen has to collect this or that in order to compete with Eliasberg when the this or that is not a part of a complete collection of United States regular – issue coins. I hope the negative posts are not just ‘sour grapes’ because another dealer is assisting Hansen in his endeavors.
In the grand scheme of thing, I know that I’m a nobody that collects mostly Kennedy half dollars for the past fifteen years. One thing I have notice is that Mr. Hansen has integrity. PCGS made a 1966 FS-901 Kennedy Half dollar (SMS no-FG) in MS68, a top pop coin. In the true View picture of this coin, the G of the designer’s initial in plainly visible, Mr. Hansen removed this coin from his set and replaced it with a MS67 graded example ( it is not just about the points or the slab but a genuine coin).
I personally dont like patterns, they are not real coins in my opinion.
They were not made for circulation.
They were not made for collectors either (with the exception of the Stellas and the UHR).
They were design recommendations to win to become a regular coin but didnt win.
Comments
No
We offered $15 million on behalf of Mr Simspon for j-1776. The guy laughed at us. Its in a trust for the current owners grand kids. No one will get it for a very long time.
Mr Simpson still wins-he owns the amazonians in all metals (the gold set is easily worth $12-$15 million)!!!!! Pick a non unique gold pattern (most have 2 minted), he owns them all! He turned down $5 million for the monster $10 1804 gold he has. If that does not make him all time #1, he owns things like a copper school girl PR68 RD!!!!!! Good luck to anyone else. Go for it Delloy.
BTW, a few of Black Cats pattern will be on display at the ANA SHow-in the ANA museum section.
It’s interesting Simpson doesn’t seem to have a 1792 Half Disme which makes the comparison a bit less interesting given the significance of the coin and that Hansen does have one.
While Simpson has a very impressive pattern collection and Hansen has few patterns right now, it’s interesting that a number of Hansen’s are not currently present in the Simpson set: J-7, J-862, J-869, J-914, J-952, J-972, J-977, J-987, and J-988. The J-7 Half Disme being the most significant omission. I wonder if Simpson will try for a more complete pattern set?
For Hansen’s quest, I think coins like the 1792 Half Disme, 1792 Silver Center Cent, and the Coiled and Flowing Hair Stellas are important. These are all in his collection now.
I think this would be a great Poll! If you had a choice....which collection would the forum members here like to own?
1 Hanson
2 Simpson
3 Black Cat
4 Other
5 All of them
Ron Guth, Chief Investigator
The Numismatic Detective Agency
Perhaps a better comparison would be:
1 Eliasberg
2 Hansen
Right now - Eliasberg. In a decade? Probably Hansen - we’ll see...
I will add to my poll post. I would choose Hanson. Why, you ask? Because it is a diversified collection spread across the board and is most likely to hold it's value overall or improve it's value than the other specialist collections. I know the big dogs will rip me apart for this but that's my belief!
Have you studied Eliasberg? Own the catalogs?
@tradedollarnut said:
Yes. I have. The bulk of Eliasberg’s collection is not impressive. The Top 100 and Top 10 are very impressive. I would agree, Hansen has some work to do to reach the level of Eliasberg for the top coins. If you compare series, Eliasberg is not as impressive as Hansen. The Mercury series that is being discussed is a prime example. If I could to choose, I would choose Eliasberg Top 100 coins and the remaining 10,000 coins would be from Hansen’s collection. As you have said before, that could change over time.
Eliasberg Mercury set. All-Time rank #37. (Not impressive)
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-dimes/mercury-dimes-major-sets/mercury-dimes-fb-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1916-1945/alltimeset/47120
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Read the post above mine
My vote would be Hanson. Of course, I'm a US-federal-issues, minted-for-circulation, date & MM guy. I generally avoid proofs, patterns, varieties, foreign coins, currency and other ancillary aspects of our hobby--probably a hold-over from my youth where my goal was to fill the Whitman coin books.
However, I would appreciate some insight on the attraction of patterns. I had never heard much about them until I started following this Forum, and what I did hear, I ignored as I considered them a small and insignificant part of "coin collecting". But reading some of your posts, one would think collection federal issue coins would be secondary to patterns (ie: coin collecting is the tail being wagged by the "dog" of pattern collecting). Obviously, there is something to them, given the expensive and extensive collections out there--so what am I missing? What makes patterns so desirable to collect as opposed to federally issued coins? And given that this Forum is geared toward the Hanson collection, why would his lack of an appropriate number of patterns lessen his collection in many of your eyes? Thanks for your input.
It would be really neat to post all of the True Views for Black Cat's pattern set in a thread of their own for all to appreciate. Ditto for Simpson.
Mercury dimes? You’re going to judge Eliasberg over merc dimes? Rotflmao
Meh. Collecting to me is a personal pursuit. Not who can bench press the most. Not saying I don’t appreciate each of these great collections. They are are marvel. I’m not a completist so what appeals to me may not resonate the same to others. I’d gravitate towards the coolest coins. Simpson or Tryant would be hard to pick from for me.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The bulk of Eliasberg’s collection is not impressive.
Oh really. Because a majority were finest known. And those that seemed to be ordinary were usually under described by 2-3 points
I posted some of Simpson’s patterns in this thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1008778/amazing-patterns#latest
Supremely arrogant.
Dell Loy is my favorite collector because he shares his beautiful coins for us to see.
My Saint Set
I wonder what Hansen and Simpson, and now Black Cat, think of this thread
I believe all of these collections are truly amazing in the own way. Each collector is passionate about different aspects of American numismatics. I don't believe they are actually competing with each other because the themes running through the collection are so obviously varied. For myself, early American silver is the theme, although I'm also passionate about Fugio Cents and early patterns. Not really competing with anyone else focused on those broad themes. Of course, In individual sets such as Capped Bust Halves date sets, there is very intense, focused competition.
I believe we should celebrate Dell Loy's efforts and his Elliasberg quest. Its an amazing journey to watch unfold. I also admire Bob Simpson's collection replete with unbelievable American treasure. These two sets of respective enthusiasms create no conflict in me whatsoever. Of course, we all know and love the collections of many other collectors think High Desert and Oliver type sets, Bruce's early dollars or the international Tyrant collection for examples. Dell Loy is a relative newcomer having shared his dream publically with everyone now over only about three years so far, but I have a suspicion he might achieve his goals some day with patience and time and opportunity.
Not everyone likes the same type of coins, and that's just fine by me. One of my favorite coins is the 1814 platinum half dollar with P's stamped all over it and the word "platina" etched into the reverse. Some people find it genuinely unattractive, but i find her amazing and awesome.
So let's enjoy this historic thread...C'est la vie! Let's have some more fun now.
John Brush bought Eliasberg’s pipe at an auction and took a photo with me and the pipe. I thought that was a fun piece of history I now share with the esteemed Mr. Eliasberg. I appreciate Mr Currin’s Blog known as Hansen Watch. it is a joy to observe his deep study comparing Elias-berg’s coins to the ones I am assembling. I learn a great deal from his research and comparisons. I look forward to having Mr Currin looking more closely at the Collection. I hope to get true view photos of the coins lacking pictures soon. Collecting is personal to each collector I honor profoundly the numerous great collectors both past and present. Let’s together celebrate our shared hobby and enjoy each other’s Numisnastic crusades. Onward and upward in seeking our individual goals. D. L. Hansen
We could ask Eliasberg if he's jealous. Oh wait. Forget that.
It's great to see you here. I hope you stick around and continue to post. It would be neat to hear your thoughts on your new purchases and insight from time to time. Maybe someone will turn it into a book on the formation of the greatest U.S. coin collection of all time.
It's great to see you here. Love your profile picture! See you in Chicago!
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
Another Great to see you here!
Mercury Bonanza
I have noticed over the year in posting this thread, sometimes people will misinterpret or twist a comment to fit their narrative. My meaning of bonanza in this posting is “a situation or event that creates a sudden increase in wealth, good fortune, or profits”. This actually occurred for the Mercury Dime series in Legend’s Regency 33 Auction that was held June 27 in Las Vegas, NV. When the final hammer fell, Hansen purchased four Mercury Dimes and two of them smashed auction records that has shaken the numismatics community. Hansen spent a record of more than $680,500 on four Mercury Dimes. Regency 33 featured 43 Mercury dimes for sale with majority of them being coins that Hansen presently has better specimens. So from the results, Hansen had a nice budget for Mercury Dimes and appears that he focused his spending on four coins.
After this historic event, I have taken the opportunity to dig a little deeper into the Mercury Dime series. It appears that something in the series may have been brewing for a while. This week the explosion occurred. The Mercury guys may have been more aware, but I have not really noticed before. It appears PCGS may have been a little ahead of the curve. PCGS provide these comments to the series: With the recent auction sale of a PCGS MS66FB 1919-D dime for $212,500 this series is suddenly being looked upon with a new appreciation. The coins of this series have always been popular because of the highly attractive design and the important historical period in which they were struck, but the new price levels are a quantum leap forward. This set can be assembled in circulated grades, low mint state grades, with or without full bands, or a mixture of the above. The message is out, however, that if you wish to build the best set you had better be ready to step up to the plate.
I don’t think stepping up to the plate comes close to describe what happen last Thursday. I don't know the details with the fore mention PCGS MS66FB 1919-D dime. I don’t see the sale in the auctions reports and really don’t know how long ago it took place. The PCGS MS66FB 1919-D dime does not appear to be in Hansen’s collection. If anyone can offer some additional info, it would be appreciated.
These are the four new coins obtained in Thursday’s sale.
1923 PCGS M68FB POP 5/2, Sold at $35,250, Legend Estimate: 12,000 - 15,000, 161% realized.
1931-S PCGS M67+FB POP 1/0, Sold at $270,250, Legend Estimate: 22,000 - 25,000, 1050% realized
1938-S PCGS M68+FB POP 1/0, Sold at $364,750, Legend Estimate: 10,000 - 12,500 3138% realized
1943 PCGS M68FB POP 10/1, Sold at $10,281.25, Legend Estimate: 9,000 - 10,000, 8.2% realized
Again the total paid for the four coins was $680,531.25. The mid-range estimate given for the coins was $57,750. The results of the total final bids to be approximately 1078%. That is a pretty good reach that requires a considerable amount of determination that the purchase will not be denied. This is why I just consider the source when I hear claims that some coins are out of Hansen's reach. If he is determined to buy, he will, as seen in this sale and with the 1885 Trade Dollar when he left his opponents asking themselves what just happened.
1938-S Mercury Dime MS68+ FB
This coin (and a sister coin) turned out to be the headliner in Legend’s Regency 33 Auction. The coin is the third PCGS MS68+ coin in The Great Collection. It is the first non-1940s MS68+. The finest coin remains to be the 1939-D MS69FB Specimen. I think the new 1938-S will become the center piece now. For what it may be worth, the coin is also a CAC specimen. The auctioneer made these comments on the coin: This is the FINEST KNOWN 1938-S dime seen by PCGS or NGC. To call this coin superb, stunning, gorgeous, beautiful--none of the adjectives convey the outstanding technical and aesthetic qualities of this AMAZING late date Mercury dime. Ultra HIGH END everything. Rich red, orange, gold, magenta, olive, emerald, and icy silver-blue hues are augmented by a strong mint brilliance. Both sides are smooth, clean, and the devices are well struck. Even if you do not collect Mercury dimes you really should take a look at this MONSTER! This is the SOLE example in this grade at PCGS and is the ONLY MS68 FB awarded a green CAC bean. PCGS has not yet estimated at value, so our estimate is conjecture and likely very conservative. We know that a full, drawn out bidding war will erupt to add this WORLD CLASS dime to a world class set. Expect a record price when the hammer falls. Good luck!
This is a gorgeous; amazing coin that Hansen bided big league style to purchase. Was it worth it? Only Hansen can answer that question. Maybe the motivation was larger than the coin itself. We may not ever know. We do know that Eliasberg’s coins in certain modern series were very inferior to the remainder of his great collection. For example in the Mercury series, the last Mercury Dime that was auction was 1931-D MS66. The balance of his Mercury collection was auctioned in 36 piece Lot#1346 in the 1997 sale. Average grade for the lot was given to be MS63.
On the other hand, Hansen is building his collection with PCGS Condition Census coins from early coinage to present (2019). This may be highly contributed to the PCGS registry we have today. For whatever the reason, I see this as a big difference in Hansen’s collection and Eliasberg’s . This may be a small but significant difference, that is being brushed over by many in the community today. If I could ask Hansen one question, it would be do you play chess. Any chess player worth their salt knows the pawns are the big players early in the game. It is later in the game that you bring the big boys out to play. While everyone is talking about and focusing on the Queens that have not shown up yet, Hansen is creating a very powerful pawn position.
1938-S Mercury Dime FB MS68+ FB CAC
Certification #37675464, PCGS #5015
PCGS POP 1/0 / PCGS Coin Guide Value: unknown (that is an understatement)
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Currin - I was at the auction when the 1919 D in Ms 66 FB sold at the Philadelphia ANA auction
for $212,000. The #1 Mercury dime set at the time was owned by Bill Dominick . His 1919 D was only an MS 65 FB. his wife Gloria wanted to buy it for him as a present. She went to the front row and started bidding while Bill Dominick was in the back of the room. She never stopped bidding against a phone bidder.. when the bids reached about $180,000 Bill Dominick ran to the front Row and proceeded to put his wife’s arm down.
The phone bidder who won that coin was Gerry Forsythe.
Thanks for the first hand story. Is this coin considered the best of the six certified MS66? What year was the auction? I can not find the sale in the auction reports. RIC
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Some say his feet never touched the ground on that sprint to the front row. Sounds like the wife and not the coin was the keeper
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It was not considered the finest but right up there. The coin was part of a senator from New Jersey’s collection. About 20 years ago.o
Is the Senator’s name public? Would be a nice provenance.
Yes
@DLHansen said:
The torch has been passed!
.
You've never been to NJ, have you?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Not since I got back into collecting. Cory Booker is the only NJ Senator I know of any fame. Should I know of any others?
Well said Dell Loy! See you at the ANA.
Senator Basssno (NJ )
Bassano
I do not believe Patterns matter nor the 1913 Nickel. Who cares about the Nickel? DLH did not.
Yes top coin and rarity but so what. Quality and eye appeal of a large or huge group of coins outweigh one coin.
It is difficult to compare collectors of different eras just like with ball players.
I do not think the Patterns matter at all. Most patterns have LITTLE collector interest. It would be difficult to sell over 75% of major collections. Laura had one for years and took nice losses. To me Patterns are not part of a basic US Coin Collection.
DLH needs to do three things.
1. Continue to buy top pops or coins that are tied for the top. If he buys another 200 or more that says lots.
Improve his collection to at least 60% if not more CAC coins. Someone else mentioned this. If not, the grades of the non
CAC coins should be lowered by one to get the total PCGS score that someone posted for his entire holdings.
Replace as many coins as possible with top eye appeal coins. To me this is the most important. If a coin is rare or comes
unattractive so be it. However, if beautiful examples can be found DLH should buy them even in lower grades. When I take a look at a box of my Morgan's or my Bust haves for example and say wow to almost ALL of them, that is special.
Laura and many others will agree with this.
I also have boxes of coins that did not have high enough grades to make my previous or current sets, that have far superior eye appeal than the coins in the set.
On the dimes: Were they worth it? Who cares? Does it really matter? A man has worked hard his entire life and a few years ago fell in love with coins. DLH wanted the best and he paid for them. So what? Is he nuts? Of course not. Sure he he paid X to much, again so what. He has made hundreds of millions if not more and wanted to own the dimes. Good for him. I am not in the same league but I have bought certain things that were far from "worth" it.
What is life all about? If you have your health and family that is wonderful. Then there are things! In this case coins.
where does one draw the line. if it foolish to spend 400K on a car that in three years is worth less than 200k?
How about 4000 suits that are worth zero in while?
Perfection - Have you ever bought any patterns ?
Have you studied how patterns
affected the design and composition of the coins you collect ?
Patterns are extensions of specialized coin collections
I collect the 12 piece short set of pattern flying eagle and Indian Cent
patterns.
I am baffled how you can say
Patterns do not matter at all.
Lastly I hope DLH gets into collecting patterns . I believe he would enjoy the history.
I’d love to listen in on that phone call to the AP.
Yes, we have a better complete collection than eliasberg...except for the few we’re missing
@DLHansen
It's cool to have you here!
My YouTube Channel
Queen to F3
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Full collections Laura! Imagine if Hansen, Simpson, and Black Cat were all doing full collections? Not to make Dell Loy’s goal harder but it would be pretty amazing if more people were collecting all series, dates and mintmarks.
What makes Eliasberg's and Dell Loy's collections amazing is not just great coins but that they are/were working on building a complete US coin collection. It's the journey that many enjoy being a part of because the idea of it is so large.
Of course, Simpson, Black Cat and others are already impressive and are great collectors with amazing collections, but there is something magical about a complete collection. That's something I'm not sure you quite grasp here.
Simpson does have many full collections, pr barber 25C, PR STD Dollars, PR TD's, MS G $1 -with many pop 1's. These are all complete. he has lots of collections. How about all his gold especially his HOF $10+20???? He has a 2C set. so many things I can not remember them all. Oh yeah, he has the finest ever MS 3CS set-I didn't have the money to build it for myself, so I asked him and he let me do it. Yeah, he should build sets....
And the kitty, is doing something major. We are not done so I can't comment. Doesn't having the greatest ever MS TD set get a MEWOW? The cat has been in coins 6 months LESS then delloy. I rank him as one of the greatest collectors ever. Oh, I said ONE of the......
This whole thing is really ridiculous. I think its pathetic I have to defend one of the greatest collections ever built (Simspon) because someone is throwing money around like its nothing. One thing Simpson never did-pay 15X for a coin!
I have read this thread from start to where it currently is.
First question, what was the theme of Louis Eliasberg;s collection? Was his goal to assemble a complete collection of United States regular – issue coins?
Are ‘Patterns’ regular – issue United States coins?
It is my understanding that Eliasberg didn’t delineate between business strike and proof coins, as long as he had each date and mint mark.
If Dell Loy Hansen wants to take on the challenge of matching or exceeding Eliasberg, power to him, he has only been at it for a few years and has already made a dent in it.
If Dell Loy Hansen doesn’t want to augment his collection with ‘Patterns’ or ‘Fantasy’ coins, that is up to him, but he could still compete with Esiasberg for a complete collection of United States regular – issue coins without the ‘Patterns’ or ‘Fantasy’ coins.
Will Dell Loy Hansen ever be able to locate and acquire an example of all United States regular issue coins by date and mint mark, unknown but I for one will be rooting for him.
I do find it humorous when I read a post that Hansen has to collect this or that in order to compete with Eliasberg when the this or that is not a part of a complete collection of United States regular – issue coins. I hope the negative posts are not just ‘sour grapes’ because another dealer is assisting Hansen in his endeavors.
In the grand scheme of thing, I know that I’m a nobody that collects mostly Kennedy half dollars for the past fifteen years. One thing I have notice is that Mr. Hansen has integrity. PCGS made a 1966 FS-901 Kennedy Half dollar (SMS no-FG) in MS68, a top pop coin. In the true View picture of this coin, the G of the designer’s initial in plainly visible, Mr. Hansen removed this coin from his set and replaced it with a MS67 graded example ( it is not just about the points or the slab but a genuine coin).
I personally dont like patterns, they are not real coins in my opinion.
They were not made for circulation.
They were not made for collectors either (with the exception of the Stellas and the UHR).
They were design recommendations to win to become a regular coin but didnt win.