... The last time that I looked, Hansen’s collection was about 70% Top 5 specimens. I can’t prove, but I don’t think Eliasberg was anywhere near that percentage. In his collection, you will find average mint state and proof coins between the years of 1932-1975. This not a large, but is a fairly good portion of his collection. There are many reasons why Eliasberg was not focus on the modern coins in his day. Some was in his control and some were not. It was a much different era before the TPG certification and registry.
Exactly. In Eliasberg's day, before slabs, for modern coins, if he had a gem Unc (MS-65) or Proof (PR-65), he was done.
He wasn't trying to find the marginally better moderns that might grade MS-66, 67, 68 today.
A solution for measuring quality that takes this into account might be to weight by price, with the prices from Eliasberg's era.
These moderns would basically be face value coins.
... The last time that I looked, Hansen’s collection was about 70% Top 5 specimens. I can’t prove, but I don’t think Eliasberg was anywhere near that percentage. In his collection, you will find average mint state and proof coins between the years of 1932-1975. This not a large, but is a fairly good portion of his collection. There are many reasons why Eliasberg was not focus on the modern coins in his day. Some was in his control and some were not. It was a much different era before the TPG certification and registry.
Exactly. In Eliasberg's day, before slabs, for modern coins, if he had a gem Unc (MS-65) or Proof (PR-65), he was done.
He wasn't trying to find the marginally better moderns that might grade MS-66, 67, 68 today.
A solution for measuring quality that takes this into account might be to weight by price, with the prices from Eliasberg's era.
These moderns would basically be face value coins.
Was he essentially done with gem unc MS-65 for all coins like Morgans and Barbers as well?
... The last time that I looked, Hansen’s collection was about 70% Top 5 specimens. I can’t prove, but I don’t think Eliasberg was anywhere near that percentage. In his collection, you will find average mint state and proof coins between the years of 1932-1975. This not a large, but is a fairly good portion of his collection. There are many reasons why Eliasberg was not focus on the modern coins in his day. Some was in his control and some were not. It was a much different era before the TPG certification and registry.
Exactly. In Eliasberg's day, before slabs, for modern coins, if he had a gem Unc (MS-65) or Proof (PR-65), he was done.
He wasn't trying to find the marginally better moderns that might grade MS-66, 67, 68 today.
A solution for measuring quality that takes this into account might be to weight by price, with the prices from Eliasberg's era.
These moderns would basically be face value coins.
Was he essentially done with gem unc MS-65 for all coins like Morgans and Barbers as well?
@Zoins said:
Another interesting statistic might be how many Eliasberg coins are now in Hansen's set.
Agreed. Does anyone know if anyone has tried to track the whereabouts or at least current service/grade of all of Eliasberg's old coins (the major ones)?
@Currin One thing I really appreciated was the count down of coins Hansen still needed. You had a list of these at the bottom in some of your posts. Does it make sense to post that in the first post in this thread and continually update it there?
@Currin said:
As you know, Hansen has one of the nicest Roosevelt collections of all-time. Presently, the collection is ranked #2. I wonder what the value of Hansen’s Roosevelt’s would be. As stated before, I believe this will be significant factor when all is said and done. Time will tell who is on the right and wrong side of this debate.
The set referenced where Hansen is ranked #2 is the following:
Of note, in this set, the #2 current set is the Registry Set winner from 2013 to 2018 with a Set Rating of 64.87. Hansen's Set Rating is 67.70. This looks like an impressive accomplishment if Hansen became the #1 set without buying the existing #1 set. In fact the #2-#5 ranked All-Time Sets are also the #2-#5 ranked Current Sets.
Did Hansen buy a set here or build this from scratch? In the Basic Set, Circulation Strikes set, the Almighty Dimes set is #4 on the all-time list but not present on the current list. Did Hansen buy this set?
I sold Hansen’s agent OnlyRoosies (Nick) #1 Silver Dime set (1946-1964). I worked for Nick.
To be honest, at the time, Hansen made a major tactical error as it relates to Roosies. He passed on Nick’s incredible #1 Clad Dime set (1965-date). It wasn’t an issue of the asking price (in fact, it was priced “dirt cheap” in my view)- I think Hansen started with the idea to stop at the year 1964. He missed out on an incredible opportunity in not buying that clad dime set and has been playing “catch up” ever since, buying, in many cases, the second best available clad specimen (in many cases at even higher prices) as Nick’s #1 clad set was “gobbled up” by an astute collector shortly thereafter.
Make no mistake about it- post 1964 Mint State clad dimes in pop top Full Band are some of the most difficult moderns to locate “out in the wild”. They will “have their day” at some point in the future. Like the Mercs that have now achieved (“crazy”) values into the hundreds of thousands of $$$, a number of these clad Roosies will likely achieve ten(s) of thousands of dollars at auction in the not too distant future! You heard it here first!
As always, Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@Currin said:
As example, let’s look at the Roosevelt Series. Today, this series has a number of enthusiasts, but Roosies are still not as popular as some of the other modern series. I have found them to be very difficult and time consuming to collect in high FB grades. For Eliasberg, it does not appear he spent time or resources on the series. They were a must for a complete set, but not valued much more than that. When his collection was sold, the Roosies were sold as a lot. This is the description for Lot 1348. The lot realized $990.00
1348 Gem Roosevelt dime set 1946 to 1975-S. One from each date and mint. Average business strike grade is MS-63 or better with Proof dates grading Proof-65. The 1950 to 1964 Philadelphia Mint issues are Proof. The 1966 and the 1967 examples are from the Special Mint Sets. The San Francisco Mint issues from 1968 to the 1975 are Proof. Remainder grading average MS-63 or better. Many examples have light iridescent toning. Recently housed in a deluxe Dansco album to facilitate sale. (Total: 75 pieces)
The collection sounds pretty mediocre to me. I would like to think the Dansco album is still intact, but that may be wishful thinking. If so, it would be great to have certified. I know there are Roosie guys watching. Question, have you ever seen or own a Eliasberg pedigreed Roosie? It would nice to know if they exist.
As you know, Hansen has one of the nicest Roosevelt collections of all-time. Presently, the collection is ranked #2. I wonder what the value of Hansen’s Roosevelt’s would be. As stated before, I believe this will be significant factor when all is said and done. Time will tell who is on the right and wrong side of this debate.
@Currin Thanks again for bringing up the Roosevelt Dimes as they just get no love. Nick Cascio assembled what we consider to be a World Class Hall of Fame collection of Roosies and sold Hansen the silvers as he for some reason didn't want the Clads at the time. He has since started collecting Clads as he has with all series. He missed out as he will never achieve top status in this series as the Halcyon collection is the premiere set by a very wide margin. The coins just don't exist and probably will not. Roosies have been abandoned by collectors of other series and most were probably tossed to the side when Mint Sets were cut up, and truly original rolls are quite hard to come by. Most rolls when found are very poor to begin with. Just ask @cladking about Roosevelts, especially the 69-80 dates. Very poor quality from the mint.
If I remember correctly, there is a member that has the Eliasberg Roosevelt Dimes in the original Dansco album and he couldn't sell them. He wanted a hefty price and said if they don't sell he would stick them back into the safe. I can't remember who it was, but he had them on the BST forum and that was about a yr of 2 ago.
@wondercoin said:
I sold Hansen’s agent OnlyRoosies (Nick) #1 Silver Dime set (1946-1964). I worked for Nick.
To be honest, at the time, Hansen made a major tactical error as it relates to Roosies. He passed on Nick’s incredible #1 Clad Dime set (1965-date). It wasn’t an issue of the asking price (in fact, it was priced “dirt cheap” in my view)- I think Hansen started with the idea to stop at the year 1964. He missed out on an incredible opportunity in not buying that clad dime set and has been playing “catch up” ever since, buying, in many cases, the second best available clad specimen (in many cases at even higher prices) as Nick’s #1 clad set was “gobbled up” by an astute collector shortly thereafter.
Make no mistake about it- post 1964 Mint State clad dimes in pop top Full Band are some of the most difficult moderns to locate “out in the wild”. They will “have their day” at some point in the future. Like the Mercs that have now achieved (“crazy”) values into the hundreds of thousands of $$$, a number of these clad Roosies will likely achieve ten(s) of thousands of dollars at auction in the not too distant future! You heard it here first!
As always, Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
@wondercoin Dude, you beat my post by 2 minutes. LOL
@Stooge said:
If I remember correctly, there is a member that has the Eliasberg Roosevelt Dimes in the original Dansco album and he couldn't sell them. He wanted a hefty price and said if they don't sell he would stick them back into the safe. I can't remember who it was, but he had them on the BST forum and that was about a yr of 2 ago.
Great info. I wonder if there's any way for PCGS to pedigree these to Eliasberg since they are in a Dansco? Are there good enough photos to match?
@Stooge said:
If I remember correctly, there is a member that has the Eliasberg Roosevelt Dimes in the original Dansco album and he couldn't sell them. He wanted a hefty price and said if they don't sell he would stick them back into the safe. I can't remember who it was, but he had them on the BST forum and that was about a yr of 2 ago.
Great info. I wonder if there's any way for PCGS to pedigree these to Eliasberg since they are in a Dansco? Are there good enough photos to match?
That's why I didn't buy them. They are basically run of the mill coins as Currin said and he wanted something like $700. Wasn't even sure about the pedigree otherwise I would've bought them. I'm sure if you did a search you could find the seller.
SET DESCRIPTION
ELIASBERG REUNITED COLLECTION: Building a Blue-Ribbon Collection on a Blue Collar Budget.
The only collection of United States coins ever formed which was complete by denomination, date and mint was that of the late Louis Eliasberg, Sr.
Expanding on the already immense collection assembled decades earlier by John M. Clapp, which included many coins obtained directly from the various mints in the year of issue, Eliasberg purchased the Clapp Collection in its entirety and worked with several dealers to fill in the remaining gaps. His quest began in 1925, and it wasn't until a quarter century later that Mr. Eliasberg secured the final coin needed, the unique 1873-CC No Arrows dime.
This collection features none of his great rarities, yet it shows how a working person on a budget can still build an historic bond by reuniting coins originally held in the family of collections assembled by America's Greatest Numismatist.
SET GOALS
ELIASBERG PEDIGREED UNITED STATES TYPE SET
USA Minor Coins Type Set consisting of coins pedigreed to the family of collections by the great Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr., the only collector to build a complete collection of US Coins by date and mint. Collection will include at least one of each major copper, nickel and silver coin type from 1800 through the time Louis Eliasberg completed his great collection in the 1950s, with every coin attributed to the Eliasberg pedigree.
As an added bonus, this collection also features United States Commemorative Half Dollars and a selection of US Gold coins as examples of design and mint, each pedigreed to the Louis Eliasberg, Sr. collection. The collection also contains a US/Philippines proof coin as an example of type from that series, and an Eliasberg-pedigreed California Gold 'Coat of Arms' to create a nexus to my home state. For some coins, examples of both Proof and Mint State examples are included, as well as a few duplicates which are held for future trades. For some coin types, such as Morgan and Peace Dollars, we are attempting to collect an Eliasberg coin from each branch mint, simply because doing so sounds like a cool subset idea.
For modern issues minted after Mr. Eliasberg completed his collection in the 1950s, and older issues for which I have yet to acquire an Eliasberg, Sr. pedigree, I have chosen to include coins pedigreed to his son, Louis Eliasberg, Jr., to further expand the theme of this "Eliasberg Reunited Collection".
In addition to Eliasberg pedigreed coins, this set also contains regular and Library Edition auction catalogs (signed by Dave Bowers and others involved with the sale), two tickets to an actual Eliasberg auction, magazine and newspaper articles from Life, Look, and hobby publications showing Eliasberg with his coins on display, the Q. David Bowers biography "Eliasberg: King of Coins", original press photographic prints of Mr. Eliasberg with his collection on display (including the photo of Eliasberg in this introduction), and personal receipts, signed letters and miscellany belonging to Louis Eliasberg, Jr. and related to the auctioning of his father's collection in the 1990s.
Note-1: All PCGS Coins in this collection are pedigreed to the Great American Numismatist: Louis Eliasberg, Sr.
Note-2: All NGC Coins in this collection are pedigreed to either Louis Eliasberg Sr. or to his son, Louis Eliasberg, Jr., as noted in the collection listing.
Note-3: Photo credit for the image of Louis Eliasberg, Sr. (above) goes to William L. Klender of the Baltimore Sunday Sun Magazine, April 24, 1962. This original print is part of our collection. The handwritten caption notes that Mr. Eliasberg's cufflinks are made from $10 gold pieces. (NOTE: Photo temporarily not displayed)
Note 4: The Eliasberg Reunited Master Collection presently includes 16 raw coins pedigreed to Louis Eliasberg, Sr. (with original Bowers & Merena invoices) which have never been sent in for grading.
Note-5: The collection also contains two non-PCGS/NGC coins: an 1857S Seated Liberty Half Dollar (WB-101) in Fine-15, housed in an older white ANACS slab, and a beautiful 1829/1827 Bust Half Dollar graded MS-61 in an ANACS older white small holder. Both are pedigreed to Louis Eliasberg, Sr. These are the only Eliasberg pedigreed ANACS small-white-holder coins that I've ever seen. If you know of another, please let me know.
The Eliasberg saint set is an interesting mix of absolute stunners and stuff I could afford without much trouble.
Probably not representative of his other sets though.
Anyone care to guess how many
Set Registry awards Mr. Hansen will receive at this years Set Registry Luncheon ?
Is anyone bringing a wheelbarrow
to help him carry them away ?
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Anyone care to guess how many
Set Registry awards Mr. Hansen will receive at this years Set Registry Luncheon ?
Is anyone bringing a wheelbarrow
to help him carry them away ?
We will find out soon enough. I could take the entire lunch to list all of them.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Someone asked me a question during the turbulence yesterday. I think it was Cam, but not 100% sure. It was a great question that went something like this: What is your favorite coin that Hansen purchased the past six months, and why? It is a great question that should be asked to the community.
This is an easy question for me. It is the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade. It is the finest known to 99% of the community, very rare, record sale, great history, and lastly, highly desirable. Hansen broke several hearts with this purchase.
@Currin said:
Someone asked me a question during the turbulence yesterday. I think it was Cam, but not 100% sure. It was a great question that went something like this: What is your favorite coin that Hansen purchased the past six months, and why? It is a great question that should be asked to the community.
This is an easy question for me. It is the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade. It is the finest known to 99% of the community, very rare, record sale, great history, and lastly, highly desirable. Hansen broke several hearts with this purchase.
That sounds as if it was too easy for you. If you feel like it, I’d love to hear which one or two others come to mind after the 1885 TD?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Currin said:
Someone asked me a question during the turbulence yesterday. I think it was Cam, but not 100% sure. It was a great question that went something like this: What is your favorite coin that Hansen purchased the past six months, and why? It is a great question that should be asked to the community.
This is an easy question for me. It is the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade. It is the finest known to 99% of the community, very rare, record sale, great history, and lastly, highly desirable. Hansen broke several hearts with this purchase.
Here's the coin.
1885 Trade Dollar - PCGS PR65+CAM (Gold Shield) pop 1/0 - Eliasberg-Hansen
Of note, this coin isn't listed in the CoinFacts Condition Census which only has the PR63+CAM and PR62CAM.
If we are talking about purchases last six months, I would say I like the purchase of early half-dimes from JRCSLM32 including the 1802, the third purchased was Perfection Liberty Seated Half Dollars.
@Currin said:
If we are talking about purchases last six months, I would say I like the purchase of early half-dimes from JRCSLM32 including the 1802, the third purchased was Perfection Liberty Seated Half Dollars.
Thank you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Currin said:
This is an easy question for me. It is the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade. It is the finest known to 99% of the community, very rare, record sale, great history, and lastly, highly desirable. Hansen broke several hearts with this purchase.
This will definitely be one of his most memorable coins and one of the ones that will be weighed most heavily when evaluating his collection in the future. The next highest graded coin (either service) is two points lower than the current holder grade (and this previously resided in a NGC 66 holder which is probably why it isn't included in the PCGS condition census).
Of note, this coin isn't listed in the CoinFacts Condition Census which only has the PR63+CAM and PR62CAM.
It's at the top of the list on the CAM page you linked now.
Saying that 99% judge the Eliasberg to be the finest known seems wrong - 4 well known expert graders say it is not.
There's no way that 400 other people have held the top 2 coins in hand and are qualified to judge that the Eliasberg is the finest.
(raw). Johnson, Green, Hester, "Menjou", Stack, Baldenhofer, in a private collection for nearly 40 years.
TDN: "It’s equal or slightly finer [than the Eliasberg]".
Kevin Lipton, Jim Halperin and Laura Sperber judge it to be finer.
PCGS PR-65+ cam. Atwater, Eliasberg, Parrino, Morelan, Hansen.
TDN: "lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine."
PCGS PR-63+ cam. Idler, Hasletine, Granberg, Green, Johnson, Roe, Kern, Carter, Worrell, Simpson.
TDN: "The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned."
PCGS PR-62 cam. Farouk, Norweb, Richmond.
TDN: "The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked."
"estimated PR-60". Olsen, Young, French.
TDN: "the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled."
The Eliasberg is still a great coin.
But let's not get carried away with "highest graded". This does not always coincide with finest known.
(raw). Johnson, Green, Hester, "Menjou", Stack, Baldenhofer, in a private collection for nearly 40 years.
TDN: "It’s equal or slightly finer [than the Eliasberg]".
Kevin Lipton, Jim Halperin and Laura Sperber judge it to be finer.
TDN also indicated that this is the best specimen a few times, emphasis mine:
@tradedollarnut said:
I have also held four 1885s in my hand. The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked. The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned. The Eliasberg coin is lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine. The raw coin is the best of the bunch as the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled.
That being said, the raw coin really needs a TrueView
@Stooge said:
If I remember correctly, there is a member that has the Eliasberg Roosevelt Dimes in the original Dansco album and he couldn't sell them. He wanted a hefty price and said if they don't sell he would stick them back into the safe. I can't remember who it was, but he had them on the BST forum and that was about a yr of 2 ago.
Great info. I wonder if there's any way for PCGS to pedigree these to Eliasberg since they are in a Dansco? Are there good enough photos to match?
That's why I didn't buy them. They are basically run of the mill coins as Currin said and he wanted something like $700. Wasn't even sure about the pedigree otherwise I would've bought them. I'm sure if you did a search you could find the seller.
It would be nice to know if the set are still intact and can be verified. It would be really cool if Hansen purchased the set and displayed the Eliasberg set of Roosies along side of his. Just by mentioning this, I may have cause the value of the set to double or maybe triple. Hansen still may be interested. Just a cool thought.
@Stooge said:
If I remember correctly, there is a member that has the Eliasberg Roosevelt Dimes in the original Dansco album and he couldn't sell them. He wanted a hefty price and said if they don't sell he would stick them back into the safe. I can't remember who it was, but he had them on the BST forum and that was about a yr of 2 ago.
Great info. I wonder if there's any way for PCGS to pedigree these to Eliasberg since they are in a Dansco? Are there good enough photos to match?
That's why I didn't buy them. They are basically run of the mill coins as Currin said and he wanted something like $700. Wasn't even sure about the pedigree otherwise I would've bought them. I'm sure if you did a search you could find the seller.
It would be nice to know if the set are still intact and can be verified. It would be really cool if Hansen purchased the set and displayed the Eliasberg set of Roosies along side of his. Just by mentioning this, I may have cause the value of the set to double or maybe triple. Hansen still may be interested. Just a cool thought.
It would be interesting as a side item in a display much like Eliasberg's pipe.
@Coinstartled said:
Don't believe that i have posted to this thread. Quite interesting.
I did.....one time. I learned my lesson fast. Big fish only. No small frys. No dissenting. Toe the line.
Not anymore.
I understand where you're coming from Cameonut. But.....this thread is the third rail. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. I prefer to remain a member in good standing.
The Eliasberg is still a great coin.
But let's not get carried away with "highest graded". This does not always coincide with finest known.
I agree, but I must say that in many if not most, it actually does.
I often use the term community in my posting. What is the meaning? First, I am speaking of the people that watch, post, visit this thread. Secondly, you are member of the community if you are a novice, an expert or anything between. So in my book, you do not have to be an expert to have an opinion based on what you know or have read. So when I referenced community, I most certain were not speaking of experts only. I consider myself a novice. I am far from being an expert or a grader. I never purchased mint state coins before PCGS. I did not trust I could do so with being taken to the cleaners. I purchase my first PCGS graded coin 9/22/1997 from Bowers & Merena. The coin was a 1938-D MS65 Buffalo Nickel. Not, a very expensive coin, and I still have today. So, I have always had trust in PCGS. Without them, I would not have a collection today. Also, I enjoy studying and following the coin hobby as a pastime activity. I read and knew much of Eliasberg history before Hansen ever came on the scene. I remember when DLRC sent me the Richmond Books in 2004-2005. I remember reading and looking at the pictures in the books several times from cover to cover. I did not purchase a coin from the Richmond collection because none of them were PCGS certified. I cannot say that I represent the community, and with that, I don’t believe experts do.
As for the Eliasberg 1885 Trade Dollar, let me first say that for my time enjoying and studying the hobby (30+ years), I have always thought the coin to be the finest known. Also, until Hansen purchased the coin a couple months ago, I do not remember anyone challenging or disputing this ranking. I will try to say this without being negative, it appear to me with many of Hansen coins, as with the 1885, they lose a lot of their shine starting at the day Hansen makes the purchase. This may be a biased statement, but it is my observation. I may be the only one that has made that observation.
There appear to be some recent claims to the ranking status of Eiasberg’s 1885. There a hidden coin out there that now appears by some folks as superior. For it to be proven, the simple way would be by having PCGS certify it. Is this coin a cameo as Eiasberg’s? I think to make a claim without backing it up is not the best way to proceed.
Secondly, I don’t base my opinion by holding the coins in hand and comparing the grade. Like I said, I am not the expert. But I do base my opinion on what I have read over a long period of time. I know there a lot of re-writing history going on in many facets of our world. I guess numismatics is not much different in that aspect. History tells me that the 1885 Eliasberg Specimen is the finest. Let me share a couple examples.
This 1885 Trade dollar was described in lot 2354 of the Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Stack's/Bowers and Merena, 4/1997) in a four-page lot description titled "Incredible Gem 1885 Trade Dollar/Finest by Far of Just Five Known/Landmark American Rarity/A Highlight of the Eliasberg Collection." The lot realized $907,500, a remarkable price at the time, when only two coins, the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty nickel and the 1804 dollar from the same collection had sold for more than $1 million. This remarkable coin has changed hands a few times privately since the Eliasberg sale, the last time selling for $3.3 million in 2006, but it has never been publicly offered since. As I indicated before, the first certified coin that I purchased was from Bowers and Merena. I put a lot of trust in what they say and their business reputation for many years. If Q. David Bowers was to come on this forum and say, “I am sorry but we had it wrong”, then I would take notice.
More recently, the Eliasberg specimen was sold in a Heritage Auction for $3,960,000. This was the lot headline:
1885 Trade Dollar, PR66 Finest of Five Examples Known Ex: Atwater-Eliasberg
The physical description given by Heritage for the coin was as follows: Few coins can match the combination of extreme rarity, highest available technical quality, and tremendous visual appeal this coin possesses. As the finest of just five known examples, with an illustrious pedigree to some of the most famous collections of all time, this lot is one of the most important offerings in this, or any other sale. The cataloger of the Eliasberg description noted, "The present coin, a highlight of the Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection, is one of the most important offerings of our generation. Its next owner will have a fantastic treasure." Off the market for more than 20 years, this coin may not become available again in the collecting life of most numismatists reading this catalog. The discerning collector will bid accordingly. I have always thought Heritage Auctions has an outstanding business reputation. I am not sure about the rest of the community, but I am not about to change my opinion without more proof than I have seen so far.
As I stated before, I have enjoyed reading and studying numismatic history for a long time, and this is the first time that I ever remember seeing the Elaisberg specimen not the top spot of a 1885 Proof Trade Dollar roster, as I saw just a few days ago on this thread. I will readily acknowledge, I have not read or seen everything written on the 1885. I am just going by what I can remember and recognizing that I remember less and less every day.
I usually end by saying to the community, you be the judge, but not sure how you can do that in this case, because one of the coins is not available but to just a select few to see. In several ways, I am sadden by this and recent events we have seen lately in the numismatic arena. I know maybe in grand scheme this is not important, but maybe it is. I will end with a parody on the starting comment..
But let's not get carried away with jumping on a band wagon when the facts are not proven. This does not always coincides with history when unverified statements are taken as facts without proof.
1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA (aka PR66 NGC) PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
I still remember the night over at Kevin Lipton’s house when he told me that the raw one was finer. Didn’t quite believe it because of everything that you mention above. It was over a decade until I held the coin in my hand (funny, it’s in a bank about ten miles from here as I post).
It’s well struck, unhairlined with pleasing toning. Looks like any old PCGS 66. Oh, but the date....
@tradedollarnut said:
I still remember the night over at Kevin Lipton’s house when he told me that the raw one was finer. Didn’t quite believe it because of everything that you mention above. It was over a decade until I held the coin in my hand (funny, it’s in a bank about ten miles from here as I post).
It’s well struck, unhairlined with pleasing toning. Looks like any old PCGS 66. Oh, but the date....
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I think what people say on forums, either way, best or not relevant, isn’t relevant to owners that prefer to keep their coins private. Of course, that doesn’t prevent others from arguing relevancy
In any event, Hansen’s coin is the best I’ve seen, if only through pics, so I have to say I like it
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I think what people say on forums, either way, best or not relevant, isn’t relevant to owners that prefer to keep their coins private. Of course, that doesn’t prevent others from arguing relevancy
In any event, Hansen’s coin is the best I’ve seen, if only through pics, so I have to say I like it
I agree. It's absolutely his choice whether to keep his coin raw, pcgs, ngc , cac or non CAC----i just think it's a bit unfair for a coin that has long been considered the finest to be challenged by a coin that is not only non public but has not been reviewed by an independent unbiased third party. I understand that the owner apparently doesnt care about the recognition but we wouldnt be having this discussion if others didnt care.
What’s fairness got to do with anything? The coin is what it is. Anyone buying ANY coin has to be aware there is always the possibility that something else is out there.
@tradedollarnut said:
What’s fairness got to do with anything? The coin is what it is. Anyone buying ANY coin has to be aware there is always the possibility that something else is out there.
...this is why I love the approach Mr. Hansen is taking...why go for one square piece of bubblegum when you can have the Doublemint twins with every date?...I respect a true collector with such deep pockets as there really shouldn’t be any limit to his/her collection. I know if it were me I would be loading that pipe with cookies and buying coins 20 hours a day
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.
Comments
@Currin wrote:
Exactly. In Eliasberg's day, before slabs, for modern coins, if he had a gem Unc (MS-65) or Proof (PR-65), he was done.
He wasn't trying to find the marginally better moderns that might grade MS-66, 67, 68 today.
A solution for measuring quality that takes this into account might be to weight by price, with the prices from Eliasberg's era.
These moderns would basically be face value coins.
Was he essentially done with gem unc MS-65 for all coins like Morgans and Barbers as well?
Yesteryear's gems are today's MS66-69 coins.
Another interesting statistic might be how many Eliasberg coins are now in Hansen's set.
Agreed. Does anyone know if anyone has tried to track the whereabouts or at least current service/grade of all of Eliasberg's old coins (the major ones)?
@Currin One thing I really appreciated was the count down of coins Hansen still needed. You had a list of these at the bottom in some of your posts. Does it make sense to post that in the first post in this thread and continually update it there?
It looks like the most recent version of the "still needed" list was "Count Down 21" from February:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12245051#Comment_12245051
The set referenced where Hansen is ranked #2 is the following:
ROOSEVELT DIMES FB BASIC SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES (1946-PRESENT)
... but I just noticed that Hansen is #1 for a larger set:
ROOSEVELT DIMES FB WITH MAJOR VARIETIES, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOF (1946-PRESENT)
Of note, in this set, the #2 current set is the Registry Set winner from 2013 to 2018 with a Set Rating of 64.87. Hansen's Set Rating is 67.70. This looks like an impressive accomplishment if Hansen became the #1 set without buying the existing #1 set. In fact the #2-#5 ranked All-Time Sets are also the #2-#5 ranked Current Sets.
Did Hansen buy a set here or build this from scratch? In the Basic Set, Circulation Strikes set, the Almighty Dimes set is #4 on the all-time list but not present on the current list. Did Hansen buy this set?
I sold Hansen’s agent OnlyRoosies (Nick) #1 Silver Dime set (1946-1964). I worked for Nick.
To be honest, at the time, Hansen made a major tactical error as it relates to Roosies. He passed on Nick’s incredible #1 Clad Dime set (1965-date). It wasn’t an issue of the asking price (in fact, it was priced “dirt cheap” in my view)- I think Hansen started with the idea to stop at the year 1964. He missed out on an incredible opportunity in not buying that clad dime set and has been playing “catch up” ever since, buying, in many cases, the second best available clad specimen (in many cases at even higher prices) as Nick’s #1 clad set was “gobbled up” by an astute collector shortly thereafter.
Make no mistake about it- post 1964 Mint State clad dimes in pop top Full Band are some of the most difficult moderns to locate “out in the wild”. They will “have their day” at some point in the future. Like the Mercs that have now achieved (“crazy”) values into the hundreds of thousands of $$$, a number of these clad Roosies will likely achieve ten(s) of thousands of dollars at auction in the not too distant future! You heard it here first!
As always, Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
@Currin Thanks again for bringing up the Roosevelt Dimes as they just get no love. Nick Cascio assembled what we consider to be a World Class Hall of Fame collection of Roosies and sold Hansen the silvers as he for some reason didn't want the Clads at the time. He has since started collecting Clads as he has with all series. He missed out as he will never achieve top status in this series as the Halcyon collection is the premiere set by a very wide margin. The coins just don't exist and probably will not. Roosies have been abandoned by collectors of other series and most were probably tossed to the side when Mint Sets were cut up, and truly original rolls are quite hard to come by. Most rolls when found are very poor to begin with. Just ask @cladking about Roosevelts, especially the 69-80 dates. Very poor quality from the mint.
If I remember correctly, there is a member that has the Eliasberg Roosevelt Dimes in the original Dansco album and he couldn't sell them. He wanted a hefty price and said if they don't sell he would stick them back into the safe. I can't remember who it was, but he had them on the BST forum and that was about a yr of 2 ago.
Later, Paul.
@wondercoin Dude, you beat my post by 2 minutes. LOL
Later, Paul.
At 1:20 a.m..... you snooze, you lose! Lol
Wondercoin
Great info. I wonder if there's any way for PCGS to pedigree these to Eliasberg since they are in a Dansco? Are there good enough photos to match?
That's why I didn't buy them. They are basically run of the mill coins as Currin said and he wanted something like $700. Wasn't even sure about the pedigree otherwise I would've bought them. I'm sure if you did a search you could find the seller.
Later, Paul.
This looks like an interesting and potentially useful set which has been aggregating Eliasberg coins.
https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=284
The Eliasberg saint set is an interesting mix of absolute stunners and stuff I could afford without much trouble.
Probably not representative of his other sets though.
For example...This one.
A 1923 MS65 515/13
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/st-gaudens-20-gold-major-varieties-1933-patterns-circulation-strikes-1907/alltimeset/4834
and this...
My Saint Set
Anyone care to guess how many
Set Registry awards Mr. Hansen will receive at this years Set Registry Luncheon ?
Is anyone bringing a wheelbarrow
to help him carry them away ?
We will find out soon enough. I could take the entire lunch to list all of them.
Someone asked me a question during the turbulence yesterday. I think it was Cam, but not 100% sure. It was a great question that went something like this: What is your favorite coin that Hansen purchased the past six months, and why? It is a great question that should be asked to the community.
This is an easy question for me. It is the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade. It is the finest known to 99% of the community, very rare, record sale, great history, and lastly, highly desirable. Hansen broke several hearts with this purchase.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
That sounds as if it was too easy for you. If you feel like it, I’d love to hear which one or two others come to mind after the 1885 TD?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here's the coin.
1885 Trade Dollar - PCGS PR65+CAM (Gold Shield) pop 1/0 - Eliasberg-Hansen
Of note, this coin isn't listed in the CoinFacts Condition Census which only has the PR63+CAM and PR62CAM.
If we are talking about purchases last six months, I would say I like the purchase of early half-dimes from JRCSLM32 including the 1802, the third purchased was Perfection Liberty Seated Half Dollars.
What are yours?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Thank you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This will definitely be one of his most memorable coins and one of the ones that will be weighed most heavily when evaluating his collection in the future. The next highest graded coin (either service) is two points lower than the current holder grade (and this previously resided in a NGC 66 holder which is probably why it isn't included in the PCGS condition census).
I’m not sure I had one specific favorite but I enjoyed looking at that group of Large Cents he added in March I think it was.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
It's at the top of the list on the CAM page you linked now.
Saying that 99% judge the Eliasberg to be the finest known seems wrong - 4 well known expert graders say it is not.
There's no way that 400 other people have held the top 2 coins in hand and are qualified to judge that the Eliasberg is the finest.
Here is a roster based on what @tradedollarnut (who has held 4 of the 5 in hand) posted back when the Eliasberg was sold
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/997819/hansen-watch/p31
(raw). Johnson, Green, Hester, "Menjou", Stack, Baldenhofer, in a private collection for nearly 40 years.
TDN: "It’s equal or slightly finer [than the Eliasberg]".
Kevin Lipton, Jim Halperin and Laura Sperber judge it to be finer.
PCGS PR-65+ cam. Atwater, Eliasberg, Parrino, Morelan, Hansen.
TDN: "lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine."
PCGS PR-63+ cam. Idler, Hasletine, Granberg, Green, Johnson, Roe, Kern, Carter, Worrell, Simpson.
TDN: "The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned."
PCGS PR-62 cam. Farouk, Norweb, Richmond.
TDN: "The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked."
"estimated PR-60". Olsen, Young, French.
TDN: "the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled."
The Eliasberg is still a great coin.
But let's not get carried away with "highest graded". This does not always coincide with finest known.
Very nice! One reason I post these is in the hopes that CoinFacts will get updated so it's exciting when it does.
TDN also indicated that this is the best specimen a few times, emphasis mine:
That being said, the raw coin really needs a TrueView
It would be nice to know if the set are still intact and can be verified. It would be really cool if Hansen purchased the set and displayed the Eliasberg set of Roosies along side of his. Just by mentioning this, I may have cause the value of the set to double or maybe triple. Hansen still may be interested. Just a cool thought.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
It would be interesting as a side item in a display much like Eliasberg's pipe.
Don't believe that i have posted to this thread. Quite interesting.
It would even be more interesting to see DL Hansen smoking from Eliasberg pipe .
Peace pipe would be a good idea around here.
I think that's what he's doing in the avatar from his last post a few pages ago...
I did.....one time. I learned my lesson fast. Big fish only. No small frys. No dissenting. Toe the line.
Not anymore.
I understand where you're coming from Cameonut. But.....this thread is the third rail. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. I prefer to remain a member in good standing.
Finest of Five Examples Known
I agree, but I must say that in many if not most, it actually does.
I often use the term community in my posting. What is the meaning? First, I am speaking of the people that watch, post, visit this thread. Secondly, you are member of the community if you are a novice, an expert or anything between. So in my book, you do not have to be an expert to have an opinion based on what you know or have read. So when I referenced community, I most certain were not speaking of experts only. I consider myself a novice. I am far from being an expert or a grader. I never purchased mint state coins before PCGS. I did not trust I could do so with being taken to the cleaners. I purchase my first PCGS graded coin 9/22/1997 from Bowers & Merena. The coin was a 1938-D MS65 Buffalo Nickel. Not, a very expensive coin, and I still have today. So, I have always had trust in PCGS. Without them, I would not have a collection today. Also, I enjoy studying and following the coin hobby as a pastime activity. I read and knew much of Eliasberg history before Hansen ever came on the scene. I remember when DLRC sent me the Richmond Books in 2004-2005. I remember reading and looking at the pictures in the books several times from cover to cover. I did not purchase a coin from the Richmond collection because none of them were PCGS certified. I cannot say that I represent the community, and with that, I don’t believe experts do.
As for the Eliasberg 1885 Trade Dollar, let me first say that for my time enjoying and studying the hobby (30+ years), I have always thought the coin to be the finest known. Also, until Hansen purchased the coin a couple months ago, I do not remember anyone challenging or disputing this ranking. I will try to say this without being negative, it appear to me with many of Hansen coins, as with the 1885, they lose a lot of their shine starting at the day Hansen makes the purchase. This may be a biased statement, but it is my observation. I may be the only one that has made that observation.
There appear to be some recent claims to the ranking status of Eiasberg’s 1885. There a hidden coin out there that now appears by some folks as superior. For it to be proven, the simple way would be by having PCGS certify it. Is this coin a cameo as Eiasberg’s? I think to make a claim without backing it up is not the best way to proceed.
Secondly, I don’t base my opinion by holding the coins in hand and comparing the grade. Like I said, I am not the expert. But I do base my opinion on what I have read over a long period of time. I know there a lot of re-writing history going on in many facets of our world. I guess numismatics is not much different in that aspect. History tells me that the 1885 Eliasberg Specimen is the finest. Let me share a couple examples.
This 1885 Trade dollar was described in lot 2354 of the Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Stack's/Bowers and Merena, 4/1997) in a four-page lot description titled "Incredible Gem 1885 Trade Dollar/Finest by Far of Just Five Known/Landmark American Rarity/A Highlight of the Eliasberg Collection." The lot realized $907,500, a remarkable price at the time, when only two coins, the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty nickel and the 1804 dollar from the same collection had sold for more than $1 million. This remarkable coin has changed hands a few times privately since the Eliasberg sale, the last time selling for $3.3 million in 2006, but it has never been publicly offered since. As I indicated before, the first certified coin that I purchased was from Bowers and Merena. I put a lot of trust in what they say and their business reputation for many years. If Q. David Bowers was to come on this forum and say, “I am sorry but we had it wrong”, then I would take notice.
More recently, the Eliasberg specimen was sold in a Heritage Auction for $3,960,000. This was the lot headline:
1885 Trade Dollar, PR66
Finest of Five Examples Known
Ex: Atwater-Eliasberg
The physical description given by Heritage for the coin was as follows: Few coins can match the combination of extreme rarity, highest available technical quality, and tremendous visual appeal this coin possesses. As the finest of just five known examples, with an illustrious pedigree to some of the most famous collections of all time, this lot is one of the most important offerings in this, or any other sale. The cataloger of the Eliasberg description noted, "The present coin, a highlight of the Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection, is one of the most important offerings of our generation. Its next owner will have a fantastic treasure." Off the market for more than 20 years, this coin may not become available again in the collecting life of most numismatists reading this catalog. The discerning collector will bid accordingly. I have always thought Heritage Auctions has an outstanding business reputation. I am not sure about the rest of the community, but I am not about to change my opinion without more proof than I have seen so far.
As I stated before, I have enjoyed reading and studying numismatic history for a long time, and this is the first time that I ever remember seeing the Elaisberg specimen not the top spot of a 1885 Proof Trade Dollar roster, as I saw just a few days ago on this thread. I will readily acknowledge, I have not read or seen everything written on the 1885. I am just going by what I can remember and recognizing that I remember less and less every day.
I usually end by saying to the community, you be the judge, but not sure how you can do that in this case, because one of the coins is not available but to just a select few to see. In several ways, I am sadden by this and recent events we have seen lately in the numismatic arena. I know maybe in grand scheme this is not important, but maybe it is. I will end with a parody on the starting comment..
But let's not get carried away with jumping on a band wagon when the facts are not proven. This does not always coincides with history when unverified statements are taken as facts without proof.
1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA (aka PR66 NGC)
PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I still remember the night over at Kevin Lipton’s house when he told me that the raw one was finer. Didn’t quite believe it because of everything that you mention above. It was over a decade until I held the coin in my hand (funny, it’s in a bank about ten miles from here as I post).
It’s well struck, unhairlined with pleasing toning. Looks like any old PCGS 66. Oh, but the date....
Why would the owner not have the coin graded? Thx
Because he doesn’t want to
that's certainly his choice but he should not be surprised when people dont consider his coin to be the finest.
I mean, you can choose to ignore raw coins, but they are still real and some are better than anything in plastic.
If the collector doesn’t want it graded, do you think they care how other people see the coin? I’m thinking no.
Pretty sure he couldn’t care less, and I can’t imagine why he should.
And FWIW, I have many raw coins in my collection and I don’t even think about how they might grade. It’s simply irrelevant.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
He doesn’t care
I think what people say on forums, either way, best or not relevant, isn’t relevant to owners that prefer to keep their coins private. Of course, that doesn’t prevent others from arguing relevancy
In any event, Hansen’s coin is the best I’ve seen, if only through pics, so I have to say I like it
I agree. It's absolutely his choice whether to keep his coin raw, pcgs, ngc , cac or non CAC----i just think it's a bit unfair for a coin that has long been considered the finest to be challenged by a coin that is not only non public but has not been reviewed by an independent unbiased third party. I understand that the owner apparently doesnt care about the recognition but we wouldnt be having this discussion if others didnt care.
What’s fairness got to do with anything? The coin is what it is. Anyone buying ANY coin has to be aware there is always the possibility that something else is out there.
...this is why I love the approach Mr. Hansen is taking...why go for one square piece of bubblegum when you can have the Doublemint twins with every date?...I respect a true collector with such deep pockets as there really shouldn’t be any limit to his/her collection. I know if it were me I would be loading that pipe with cookies and buying coins 20 hours a day
I totally agree with TDN on this. I have seen plenty of coins at auction with the phrase “finest graded”. That is pure baloney. I know of plenty of raw colonial coins that far exceed those that have been slabbed. One needs to really be on top of the series that they are collecting.
I have and know of other collectors with plenty of raw coins that would blow away what is “finest graded”.