I would have blown old Delloy of of the water on the 1885 if I had been on the phone w/my other customer (he had no gudiance). He did buy the 1884.
I am disgusted the 2 coins were not kept together. I consider it a lack of respect. I am angry that after all the work I put in, the pony I picked came up short and bought ZERO trade Dollars. BTW, Legend had 3 real bidders. I knew the first person to 3.3 would win it. Not a good start to a year.
JB, that’s an incredible 1863 eagle. > @specialist said:
I bought the Jeff head.
I would have blown old Delloy of of the water on the 1885 if I had been on the phone w/my other customer (he had no gudiance). He did buy the 1884.
I am disgusted the 2 coins were not kept together. I consider it a lack of respect. I am angry that after all the work I put in, the pony I picked came up short and bought ZERO trade Dollars. BTW, Legend had 3 real bidders. I knew the first person to 3.3 would win it. Not a good start to a year.
Too bad you didn’t pick up the phone and call your client.
You are either blaming Dell for not buying the 1884. Or you’re blaming your client for not having the correct “guidance” on the 1885.
I am dedicating this week to Hansen Collection of Proof Trade Dollars. Tomorrow, we will start the discussion with the big FUN purchase. Later in the week, more discussions on the Proof Trade Dollar sets. Should be some good information. I am looking forward to learning more about these coins. I hope you enjoy as well. Any particulars you want to see in the discussions, just let me know.
There was a strong push to keep the two trade dollars together during the bidding for what it's worth. Someone told me at the show that the two weren't always together. Perhaps someone knows more history there and it can added to the Hansen trade dollar set review.
I could not call my other customer. I had committed to someone else who bid $3.2 on the 1885. Believe me, I had a ton of wasted time and energy and was with the wrong pony.
Wonder if Delloy even knows its Trade Dollar....And FYI-there is a better on out there. I SAW IT.
@GoBust said:
There was a strong push to keep the two trade dollars together during the bidding for what it's worth. Someone told me at the show that the two weren't always together. Perhaps someone knows more history there and it can added to the Hansen trade dollar set review.
The coins separated at the Eliasberg sale. I bought the 1885 in 1999. I bought the 1884 several years later to reunite them. I sold them as a pair to the consignor via JA and Heritage. So they’ve been together their entire life except about four years until now
@specialist said:
I could not call my other customer. I had committed to someone else who bid $3.2 on the 1885. Believe me, I had a ton of wasted time and energy and was with the wrong pony.
Wonder if Delloy even knows its Trade Dollar....And FYI-there is a better on out there. I SAW IT.
How many 1884’s have you seen that are better than the Eliasberg coin? I already know you’re not a fan of the Starr coin as a 67, but where do you rank it?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@specialist said:
I HATE the PR67. Its UGLY......Just like I hated the MS68 78S.......
I liked the 84 in 66. Hansen can have his 5 min of fame on the 1885.. There is a better one
Which one is better? PCGS has a PR 62, PR 63+ CAM and PR 62 CAM in its census with Hansen's PR 65+ CAM. NGC lists one in PR 66 (which is now the Hansen coin) and a PR 61 and PR 63 CAM. So which coin out there do you believe is better?
I'm not sure there is really anything negative to be said about obtaining an important key rarity in PCGS PR65+. I thought the coin was pretty darn awesome. I like being happy when collectors battle to get great coins. I usually feel bad for a little while (sometimes a year!) when i'm outbid and then it dawn's on me that another collector thought the coin was as cool as I did. Would like to have a chance to see the raw 1885 proof someday.
I have also held four 1885s in my hand. The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked. The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned. The Eliasberg coin is lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine. The raw coin is the best of the bunch as the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled.
@tradedollarnut said:
I have also held four 1885s in my hand. The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked. The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned. The Eliasberg coin is lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine. The raw coin is the best of the bunch as the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled.
Currin, where is the 1817/4 (11 known) Capped Half Dollar in your half dollar bake off? Certainly one of the keys to the entire half dollar series of any type and obvious rarest lettered edge capped half dollar. All of the Bust Half Nut Club crazies see this coin as head and shoulders above all other capped lettered edge halves in importance. The 1838-O (9 known) obviously being a mint mark only available in proof in 1838 is the key to the Reeded Edge capped halves of course. Eliasberg bought his 1817/4 specimen which now resides in a PCGS AU53 holder directly from none other than Al Overton himself, the author of the treatise on early american half dollars. It is considered also to be the Wallace discovery coin. I'm not sure why the 1817/4 isn't listed in the Eliasberg set, he certainly owned it and it may have been one of the last, if not the last coin he added for completion. But I guess some overdates aren't included if other coins of the same date and mint origin are available? The 1815/2 certainly takes a back seat to those two American key rarities, although Sheridan Downey (top specialist in early american halves) will tell you that the 1815/2 is the most frequent half dollar that people ask him to buy. I have little doubt the Hansen collection will eventually include these. These two rare Eliasberg halves, 1817/4 and 1838-O, where put back together after the Gardner sale where they belong after being previously separated after the Eliasberg auction in 1997.
Looks like you have had a lot of fun with 1885 trade dollars Bruce. This Eliasberg/Morelan/Hansen example was the first I've been able to hold. I guess you've had a passion for that series for a long time.
I am dedicating this week to Hansen Collection of Proof Trade Dollars. Tomorrow, we will start the discussion with the big FUN purchase. Later in the week, more discussions on the Proof Trade Dollar sets. Should be some good information. I am looking forward to learning more about these coins. I hope you enjoy as well. Any particulars you want to see in the discussions, just let me know.
Read the article in the last Gobrecht Journal. I don't have it handy.
The reason I chose to sell the Eliasberg coins is because Kevin Lipton told me the raw coin was a lot nicer. Jim Halpetin believes the same - he sold it to the current owner a long time ago. I felt there was a ‘finest’ premium attached to the Eliasberg coin that would eventually disappear if they were correct. After seeing the coin ‘in-hand’, they were indeed.
No, TDN holds NO sour grapes-really. Nor do I. I was just angry I put too much time and effort into the wrong pony. BUT the raw coin is finer, and we WILL own it one day.
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
That's an excellent question to form, how many overdates was Eliasberg missing from his collection? If any? I'm sure the genius of this board will know the answer.
"@specialist said:
I ...
I ... I ... my ...
I ...I ...I... I ... I ...Legend ... I …"
Some folks have such stature in their field that the only way they can tell a story or express an opinion is in the first person - "I." IMO, there is nothing wrong with this. I didn't notice anything you pointed out in @specialist's post. I don't judge folks by their number of posts or stars. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing who you are or your numismatic credentials so maybe you too are qualified to use the word "I" a lot when writing about your specialty if that is the case.
To make my point, I can think of some examples that we all should tolerate. The word "I" was used all the time by a former president. After all, he was the greatest so "I" was appropriately overused in his speeches. We may think a great explorer or famous inventor relating his path to discovery by using the word "I" to be immodest but again the word "I" is perfectly appropriate. "We" and "they" were not involved.
You're right, eleven self-references in a short post in a thread about someone else's collection probably isn't excessively narcissistic. Post edited. Thanks!
@Gazes said:
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
Maybe he will buy it (the mystery 1885) down the road. I would imagine current owner would want top dollar and it looks like Hansen can and will step up to the plate.
Current owner said in a phone call that he’s never selling while he’s alive and that he’s writing it into his will that the coin is to be sold to me at market value after he passes
Mr. Big, as the purchase was described by an Early America Proof Specialist and Collector. JB and DLH may have pulled off a miracle with this purchase. The stars were aligned against them in making the purchase of the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade Dollar. When I say stars, I don’t mean the ones in the sky. By some people in the community, he has already been pegged as a second tier collector that doesn’t have a chance of catching the big fish. If he doesn’t win another Mr. Big, he got this one! If you want to read more about the lead up to the auction (and it is very interesting), review some of the comments in this tread from a few days ago (last week). In addition, I have provided a link to another thread that you may find interesting.
Usually at this point in the update, I provide some comments on the set. Being this is a significant coin placed in a significant set; I will provide some points around the Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885) set a little later this week. Let’s continue discussing the coin today.
There are several points of great significance to this coin. I will name a few, but there certainly can be others. If you know of anymore, please feel free to provide additional information.
1- The coin is a countdown coin in the Eliasberg Quest (was #10 on my list).
2- The coin is the finest known Proof 1885 Trade Dollar according to PCGS.
3- The coin has established a high bar for Top Sale in 2019 at $3,960,000.
4- The coin is the seventh addition to Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
5- The coin is 3rd PCGS 1/0 specimen in Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
6- The coin is #6 on the list of the Top Auction Prices of All Time.
7- The coin completes the All-Time Finest “Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885)”
1885 Trade Dollar, PCGS PR65+ CA (NGC PR66) / Finest of Five Examples Known / Ex: Atwater-Eliasberg
This specimen is so famous that there no need to go into a lot of detail. I will say, the last public auction appearance for this specimen was the Bowers and Merena , 1997 sale of the Eliasberg Collection, where the coin realized $907,500. The coin sold privately for $3,300,000 in January 2006. Instead of going into a lot of details and descriptions as I usually do, I going to provide you a link where you can read more about the sale of this coin.
I believe this to be the paramount single coin addition to the Hansen Collections to date. This is based on what is made public, and we really don’t know if Hansen Collection has any private coins. I don’t believe this to be the last additional of this caliber, and 1885 may not finish in the Top 5 when all is said and done.
Congratulations DLH and JB!!! Everyone, please join me in congratulating the Hansen Collection Team on successfully sealing the deal on the Finest Known Atwater-Eliasberg-Morelan 1885 Trade Dollar.
1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
There are 23 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 13 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10 1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection) 1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection) 1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA) 1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection) 1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased) 1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned) 1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 10 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8) 1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9) 1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13) 1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1797 "Large Eagle” Half Eagle (Survival 20)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17) 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1796 “Stars" Quarter Eagle (Survival 40) 1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
Silly question. If Hansen were to get every coin on that list (say even a 1933 $20 that no one knew he had and the few unique coins - 1870-s, etc.) then could he say he had the finest overall and most complete collection of US coins in private hands ever assembled? Correct?
Will he add territorials or patterns while waiting?
Perhaps the "Hansen, Bass, Simpson, Bender Collection" would get the 3 unique coins into the group.
Silly question. If Hansen were to get every coin on that list (say even a 1933 $20 that no one knew he had and the few unique coins - 1870-s, etc.) then could he say he had the finest overall and most complete collection of US coins in private hands ever assembled? Correct?
Will he add territorials or patterns while waiting?
Perhaps the "Hansen, Bass, Simpson, Bender Collection" would get the 3 unique coins into the group.
If you use the Eliasberg classic set as the guide for a completed set of US Coin, and Hansen acquires the 23 remaining, I think you could say....
1- Hansen and Eliasberg are the only two collectors to have a complete US set.
2- Hansen set have more coins, including the 1870s half dime, the 1866 “No Motto” dollar, and the updates from where Eliasberg’s set ended. (I agree, a more complete set)
3- The overall condition of the Hansen set is considerable better than Eliasberg.
Finest overall, Finest of All Time, Greatest Collection of All Time. These terms are measured differently by different people. Even if Hansen accomplished everything that you describe, if he don’t purchase the finest ultra-rarities, he will come up short in the eyes of some. I beleive this contributed to the importance to acquire the 1885 dollar that he did, and not a lower grade. Hansen has not lived down the decision of buying the 1804 dollar.
We were disappointed that we didn't end up with the 1884 and the 1885 as well. However, we think that our 1884 is nicer and ultimately we were happy to end up with the 1885. As Mr. Black Cat asked after the auction, we had a few increments left in the bidding, so we weren't going down without a fight.
Laura and I had both been chasing the pair for the past year, but the final result ended up better for us and we were able to buy a few other coins at the show for the collection.
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@Gazes said:
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
Maybe he will buy it (the mystery 1885) down the road. I would imagine current owner would want top dollar and it looks like Hansen can and will step up to the plate.
Current owner said in a phone call that he’s never selling while he’s alive and that he’s writing it into his will that the coin is to be sold to me at market value after he passes
But one never knows....
The problem is that wills can easily go missing and when a will cannot be found, many jurisdictions interpret it to have been destroyed/voided by the testator. It is far from a guarantee. Also, how does one establish "market value" in the absence of a comparable auction appearance? If I am interpreting the comments correctly, it appears that the raw coin blows the Eliasberg coin away and would presumably be worth much more once encapsulated.
I think one thing to remember when looking at individual coins in the Hansen collection is that his goal is to collect one of everything! This is a goal very few have ever tried to take on. So sometimes his options may be more limited or compromises must be made. If one is building just the finest St Gaudens set or the just the Finest Trade dollar set, I think your approach should be different. If you are trying to get one of everything sometimes its just not possible that every coin is all there.
Comments
Who got the Jefferson cent? Was Laura correct?
I bought the Jeff head.
I would have blown old Delloy of of the water on the 1885 if I had been on the phone w/my other customer (he had no gudiance). He did buy the 1884.
I am disgusted the 2 coins were not kept together. I consider it a lack of respect. I am angry that after all the work I put in, the pony I picked came up short and bought ZERO trade Dollars. BTW, Legend had 3 real bidders. I knew the first person to 3.3 would win it. Not a good start to a year.
JB, that’s an incredible 1863 eagle. > @specialist said:
Too bad you didn’t pick up the phone and call your client.
You are either blaming Dell for not buying the 1884. Or you’re blaming your client for not having the correct “guidance” on the 1885.
Heads Up
I am dedicating this week to Hansen Collection of Proof Trade Dollars. Tomorrow, we will start the discussion with the big FUN purchase. Later in the week, more discussions on the Proof Trade Dollar sets. Should be some good information. I am looking forward to learning more about these coins. I hope you enjoy as well. Any particulars you want to see in the discussions, just let me know.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
There was a strong push to keep the two trade dollars together during the bidding for what it's worth. Someone told me at the show that the two weren't always together. Perhaps someone knows more history there and it can added to the Hansen trade dollar set review.
Anyone know where Mr. Chain ended up? If it has been said, sorry but I missed it.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I could not call my other customer. I had committed to someone else who bid $3.2 on the 1885. Believe me, I had a ton of wasted time and energy and was with the wrong pony.
Wonder if Delloy even knows its Trade Dollar....And FYI-there is a better on out there. I SAW IT.
The coins separated at the Eliasberg sale. I bought the 1885 in 1999. I bought the 1884 several years later to reunite them. I sold them as a pair to the consignor via JA and Heritage. So they’ve been together their entire life except about four years until now
How many 1884’s have you seen that are better than the Eliasberg coin? I already know you’re not a fan of the Starr coin as a 67, but where do you rank it?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It’s the best I’ve held in hand out of four
I HATE the PR67. Its UGLY......Just like I hated the MS68 78S.......
I liked the 84 in 66. Hansen can have his 5 min of fame on the 1885.. There is a better one
Shhhhhhhhhh
Which one is better? PCGS has a PR 62, PR 63+ CAM and PR 62 CAM in its census with Hansen's PR 65+ CAM. NGC lists one in PR 66 (which is now the Hansen coin) and a PR 61 and PR 63 CAM. So which coin out there do you believe is better?
The raw one
I'm not sure there is really anything negative to be said about obtaining an important key rarity in PCGS PR65+. I thought the coin was pretty darn awesome. I like being happy when collectors battle to get great coins. I usually feel bad for a little while (sometimes a year!) when i'm outbid and then it dawn's on me that another collector thought the coin was as cool as I did. Would like to have a chance to see the raw 1885 proof someday.
I have also held four 1885s in my hand. The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked. The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned. The Eliasberg coin is lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine. The raw coin is the best of the bunch as the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled.
Why has the raw coin not been submitted to a TPG?
Because the owner enjoys it just the way it is. He’s owned it raw for near four decades
Currin, where is the 1817/4 (11 known) Capped Half Dollar in your half dollar bake off? Certainly one of the keys to the entire half dollar series of any type and obvious rarest lettered edge capped half dollar. All of the Bust Half Nut Club crazies see this coin as head and shoulders above all other capped lettered edge halves in importance. The 1838-O (9 known) obviously being a mint mark only available in proof in 1838 is the key to the Reeded Edge capped halves of course. Eliasberg bought his 1817/4 specimen which now resides in a PCGS AU53 holder directly from none other than Al Overton himself, the author of the treatise on early american half dollars. It is considered also to be the Wallace discovery coin. I'm not sure why the 1817/4 isn't listed in the Eliasberg set, he certainly owned it and it may have been one of the last, if not the last coin he added for completion. But I guess some overdates aren't included if other coins of the same date and mint origin are available? The 1815/2 certainly takes a back seat to those two American key rarities, although Sheridan Downey (top specialist in early american halves) will tell you that the 1815/2 is the most frequent half dollar that people ask him to buy. I have little doubt the Hansen collection will eventually include these. These two rare Eliasberg halves, 1817/4 and 1838-O, where put back together after the Gardner sale where they belong after being previously separated after the Eliasberg auction in 1997.
Looks like you have had a lot of fun with 1885 trade dollars Bruce. This Eliasberg/Morelan/Hansen example was the first I've been able to hold. I guess you've had a passion for that series for a long time.
That’s why I’m Tradedollarnut.
Read the article in the last Gobrecht Journal. I don't have it handy.
The reason I chose to sell the Eliasberg coins is because Kevin Lipton told me the raw coin was a lot nicer. Jim Halpetin believes the same - he sold it to the current owner a long time ago. I felt there was a ‘finest’ premium attached to the Eliasberg coin that would eventually disappear if they were correct. After seeing the coin ‘in-hand’, they were indeed.
How many of those forty years have you had a standing offer on that coin?
You certainly are a tradedollarnut!
No, TDN holds NO sour grapes-really. Nor do I. I was just angry I put too much time and effort into the wrong pony. BUT the raw coin is finer, and we WILL own it one day.
I have no problem w/the 65+.
No sour grapes at all. LOVE the Eliasberg coins.
It's pretty much a date and mintmark set, plus a few hub or planchet changes like:
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/complete-sets/master-sets/u-s-coins-complete-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1792-1964/alltimeset/149665
The 1817/4 would be at the next level - Red Book die variety set.
Although you bring up a good point - are the above more like die varieties that date x mintmark things?
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
That's an excellent question to form, how many overdates was Eliasberg missing from his collection? If any? I'm sure the genius of this board will know the answer.
Coingrats to Hansen for buying the 1885 trade dollar. Very nice and rare coin.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said:
"@specialist said:
I ...
I ... I ... my ...
I ...I ...I... I ... I ...Legend ... I …"
Some folks have such stature in their field that the only way they can tell a story or express an opinion is in the first person - "I." IMO, there is nothing wrong with this. I didn't notice anything you pointed out in @specialist's post. I don't judge folks by their number of posts or stars. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing who you are or your numismatic credentials so maybe you too are qualified to use the word "I" a lot when writing about your specialty if that is the case.
To make my point, I can think of some examples that we all should tolerate. The word "I" was used all the time by a former president. After all, he was the greatest so "I" was appropriately overused in his speeches. We may think a great explorer or famous inventor relating his path to discovery by using the word "I" to be immodest but again the word "I" is perfectly appropriate. "We" and "they" were not involved.
You're right, eleven self-references in a short post in a thread about someone else's collection probably isn't excessively narcissistic. Post edited. Thanks!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Current owner said in a phone call that he’s never selling while he’s alive and that he’s writing it into his will that the coin is to be sold to me at market value after he passes
But one never knows....
Count Down 23 – First countdown for 2019
Mr. Big, as the purchase was described by an Early America Proof Specialist and Collector. JB and DLH may have pulled off a miracle with this purchase. The stars were aligned against them in making the purchase of the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade Dollar. When I say stars, I don’t mean the ones in the sky. By some people in the community, he has already been pegged as a second tier collector that doesn’t have a chance of catching the big fish. If he doesn’t win another Mr. Big, he got this one! If you want to read more about the lead up to the auction (and it is very interesting), review some of the comments in this tread from a few days ago (last week). In addition, I have provided a link to another thread that you may find interesting.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1010936/eliasberg-1885-t-1-has-hit-1-million-dollars#latest
Usually at this point in the update, I provide some comments on the set. Being this is a significant coin placed in a significant set; I will provide some points around the Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885) set a little later this week. Let’s continue discussing the coin today.
There are several points of great significance to this coin. I will name a few, but there certainly can be others. If you know of anymore, please feel free to provide additional information.
1- The coin is a countdown coin in the Eliasberg Quest (was #10 on my list).
2- The coin is the finest known Proof 1885 Trade Dollar according to PCGS.
3- The coin has established a high bar for Top Sale in 2019 at $3,960,000.
4- The coin is the seventh addition to Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
5- The coin is 3rd PCGS 1/0 specimen in Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
6- The coin is #6 on the list of the Top Auction Prices of All Time.
7- The coin completes the All-Time Finest “Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885)”
1885 Trade Dollar, PCGS PR65+ CA (NGC PR66) / Finest of Five Examples Known / Ex: Atwater-Eliasberg
This specimen is so famous that there no need to go into a lot of detail. I will say, the last public auction appearance for this specimen was the Bowers and Merena , 1997 sale of the Eliasberg Collection, where the coin realized $907,500. The coin sold privately for $3,300,000 in January 2006. Instead of going into a lot of details and descriptions as I usually do, I going to provide you a link where you can read more about the sale of this coin.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-trade-dollars/1885-t-1-pr66-ngc/a/1291-4553.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116
I believe this to be the paramount single coin addition to the Hansen Collections to date. This is based on what is made public, and we really don’t know if Hansen Collection has any private coins. I don’t believe this to be the last additional of this caliber, and 1885 may not finish in the Top 5 when all is said and done.
Congratulations DLH and JB!!! Everyone, please join me in congratulating the Hansen Collection Team on successfully sealing the deal on the Finest Known Atwater-Eliasberg-Morelan 1885 Trade Dollar.
1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA
PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
There are 23 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 13 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10
1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection)
1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection)
1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA)
1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection)
1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased)
1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned)
1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 10
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8)
1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9)
1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13)
1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1797 "Large Eagle” Half Eagle (Survival 20)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1796 “Stars" Quarter Eagle (Survival 40)
1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
Last 3
1840-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 65)
1854-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
@Currin
Silly question. If Hansen were to get every coin on that list (say even a 1933 $20 that no one knew he had and the few unique coins - 1870-s, etc.) then could he say he had the finest overall and most complete collection of US coins in private hands ever assembled? Correct?
Will he add territorials or patterns while waiting?
Perhaps the "Hansen, Bass, Simpson, Bender Collection" would get the 3 unique coins into the group.
If you use the Eliasberg classic set as the guide for a completed set of US Coin, and Hansen acquires the 23 remaining, I think you could say....
1- Hansen and Eliasberg are the only two collectors to have a complete US set.
2- Hansen set have more coins, including the 1870s half dime, the 1866 “No Motto” dollar, and the updates from where Eliasberg’s set ended. (I agree, a more complete set)
3- The overall condition of the Hansen set is considerable better than Eliasberg.
Finest overall, Finest of All Time, Greatest Collection of All Time. These terms are measured differently by different people. Even if Hansen accomplished everything that you describe, if he don’t purchase the finest ultra-rarities, he will come up short in the eyes of some. I beleive this contributed to the importance to acquire the 1885 dollar that he did, and not a lower grade. Hansen has not lived down the decision of buying the 1804 dollar.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
A big splash by Hansen. What a huge coin. The greatest collection of our time.
We were disappointed that we didn't end up with the 1884 and the 1885 as well. However, we think that our 1884 is nicer and ultimately we were happy to end up with the 1885. As Mr. Black Cat asked after the auction, we had a few increments left in the bidding, so we weren't going down without a fight.
Laura and I had both been chasing the pair for the past year, but the final result ended up better for us and we were able to buy a few other coins at the show for the collection.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
The problem is that wills can easily go missing and when a will cannot be found, many jurisdictions interpret it to have been destroyed/voided by the testator. It is far from a guarantee. Also, how does one establish "market value" in the absence of a comparable auction appearance? If I am interpreting the comments correctly, it appears that the raw coin blows the Eliasberg coin away and would presumably be worth much more once encapsulated.
Thus ‘one never knows’
And it doesn’t blow away the Eliasberg coin. It’s equal or slightly finer
Have you or @specialist ever offered to submit it to PCGS (with him paying the fees) so that there is an official grade/record for the census?
I think one thing to remember when looking at individual coins in the Hansen collection is that his goal is to collect one of everything! This is a goal very few have ever tried to take on. So sometimes his options may be more limited or compromises must be made. If one is building just the finest St Gaudens set or the just the Finest Trade dollar set, I think your approach should be different. If you are trying to get one of everything sometimes its just not possible that every coin is all there.
Don't know if this has been discussed in the thread, but I'd like to know what manner of storage Hansen and TDN use for their coins.
Plain slabs, Intercept or other sacrificial element protection, controlled environment vault, plain bank vault, good safe or any combination of those.
???