@specialist said:
I HATE the PR67. Its UGLY......Just like I hated the MS68 78S.......
I liked the 84 in 66. Hansen can have his 5 min of fame on the 1885.. There is a better one
Which one is better? PCGS has a PR 62, PR 63+ CAM and PR 62 CAM in its census with Hansen's PR 65+ CAM. NGC lists one in PR 66 (which is now the Hansen coin) and a PR 61 and PR 63 CAM. So which coin out there do you believe is better?
I'm not sure there is really anything negative to be said about obtaining an important key rarity in PCGS PR65+. I thought the coin was pretty darn awesome. I like being happy when collectors battle to get great coins. I usually feel bad for a little while (sometimes a year!) when i'm outbid and then it dawn's on me that another collector thought the coin was as cool as I did. Would like to have a chance to see the raw 1885 proof someday.
I have also held four 1885s in my hand. The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked. The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned. The Eliasberg coin is lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine. The raw coin is the best of the bunch as the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled.
@tradedollarnut said:
I have also held four 1885s in my hand. The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked. The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned. The Eliasberg coin is lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine. The raw coin is the best of the bunch as the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled.
Currin, where is the 1817/4 (11 known) Capped Half Dollar in your half dollar bake off? Certainly one of the keys to the entire half dollar series of any type and obvious rarest lettered edge capped half dollar. All of the Bust Half Nut Club crazies see this coin as head and shoulders above all other capped lettered edge halves in importance. The 1838-O (9 known) obviously being a mint mark only available in proof in 1838 is the key to the Reeded Edge capped halves of course. Eliasberg bought his 1817/4 specimen which now resides in a PCGS AU53 holder directly from none other than Al Overton himself, the author of the treatise on early american half dollars. It is considered also to be the Wallace discovery coin. I'm not sure why the 1817/4 isn't listed in the Eliasberg set, he certainly owned it and it may have been one of the last, if not the last coin he added for completion. But I guess some overdates aren't included if other coins of the same date and mint origin are available? The 1815/2 certainly takes a back seat to those two American key rarities, although Sheridan Downey (top specialist in early american halves) will tell you that the 1815/2 is the most frequent half dollar that people ask him to buy. I have little doubt the Hansen collection will eventually include these. These two rare Eliasberg halves, 1817/4 and 1838-O, where put back together after the Gardner sale where they belong after being previously separated after the Eliasberg auction in 1997.
Looks like you have had a lot of fun with 1885 trade dollars Bruce. This Eliasberg/Morelan/Hansen example was the first I've been able to hold. I guess you've had a passion for that series for a long time.
I am dedicating this week to Hansen Collection of Proof Trade Dollars. Tomorrow, we will start the discussion with the big FUN purchase. Later in the week, more discussions on the Proof Trade Dollar sets. Should be some good information. I am looking forward to learning more about these coins. I hope you enjoy as well. Any particulars you want to see in the discussions, just let me know.
Read the article in the last Gobrecht Journal. I don't have it handy.
The reason I chose to sell the Eliasberg coins is because Kevin Lipton told me the raw coin was a lot nicer. Jim Halpetin believes the same - he sold it to the current owner a long time ago. I felt there was a ‘finest’ premium attached to the Eliasberg coin that would eventually disappear if they were correct. After seeing the coin ‘in-hand’, they were indeed.
No, TDN holds NO sour grapes-really. Nor do I. I was just angry I put too much time and effort into the wrong pony. BUT the raw coin is finer, and we WILL own it one day.
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
That's an excellent question to form, how many overdates was Eliasberg missing from his collection? If any? I'm sure the genius of this board will know the answer.
"@specialist said:
I ...
I ... I ... my ...
I ...I ...I... I ... I ...Legend ... I …"
Some folks have such stature in their field that the only way they can tell a story or express an opinion is in the first person - "I." IMO, there is nothing wrong with this. I didn't notice anything you pointed out in @specialist's post. I don't judge folks by their number of posts or stars. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing who you are or your numismatic credentials so maybe you too are qualified to use the word "I" a lot when writing about your specialty if that is the case.
To make my point, I can think of some examples that we all should tolerate. The word "I" was used all the time by a former president. After all, he was the greatest so "I" was appropriately overused in his speeches. We may think a great explorer or famous inventor relating his path to discovery by using the word "I" to be immodest but again the word "I" is perfectly appropriate. "We" and "they" were not involved.
You're right, eleven self-references in a short post in a thread about someone else's collection probably isn't excessively narcissistic. Post edited. Thanks!
@Gazes said:
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
Maybe he will buy it (the mystery 1885) down the road. I would imagine current owner would want top dollar and it looks like Hansen can and will step up to the plate.
Current owner said in a phone call that he’s never selling while he’s alive and that he’s writing it into his will that the coin is to be sold to me at market value after he passes
Mr. Big, as the purchase was described by an Early America Proof Specialist and Collector. JB and DLH may have pulled off a miracle with this purchase. The stars were aligned against them in making the purchase of the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade Dollar. When I say stars, I don’t mean the ones in the sky. By some people in the community, he has already been pegged as a second tier collector that doesn’t have a chance of catching the big fish. If he doesn’t win another Mr. Big, he got this one! If you want to read more about the lead up to the auction (and it is very interesting), review some of the comments in this tread from a few days ago (last week). In addition, I have provided a link to another thread that you may find interesting.
Usually at this point in the update, I provide some comments on the set. Being this is a significant coin placed in a significant set; I will provide some points around the Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885) set a little later this week. Let’s continue discussing the coin today.
There are several points of great significance to this coin. I will name a few, but there certainly can be others. If you know of anymore, please feel free to provide additional information.
1- The coin is a countdown coin in the Eliasberg Quest (was #10 on my list).
2- The coin is the finest known Proof 1885 Trade Dollar according to PCGS.
3- The coin has established a high bar for Top Sale in 2019 at $3,960,000.
4- The coin is the seventh addition to Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
5- The coin is 3rd PCGS 1/0 specimen in Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
6- The coin is #6 on the list of the Top Auction Prices of All Time.
7- The coin completes the All-Time Finest “Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885)”
1885 Trade Dollar, PCGS PR65+ CA (NGC PR66) / Finest of Five Examples Known / Ex: Atwater-Eliasberg
This specimen is so famous that there no need to go into a lot of detail. I will say, the last public auction appearance for this specimen was the Bowers and Merena , 1997 sale of the Eliasberg Collection, where the coin realized $907,500. The coin sold privately for $3,300,000 in January 2006. Instead of going into a lot of details and descriptions as I usually do, I going to provide you a link where you can read more about the sale of this coin.
I believe this to be the paramount single coin addition to the Hansen Collections to date. This is based on what is made public, and we really don’t know if Hansen Collection has any private coins. I don’t believe this to be the last additional of this caliber, and 1885 may not finish in the Top 5 when all is said and done.
Congratulations DLH and JB!!! Everyone, please join me in congratulating the Hansen Collection Team on successfully sealing the deal on the Finest Known Atwater-Eliasberg-Morelan 1885 Trade Dollar.
1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
There are 23 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 13 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10 1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection) 1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection) 1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA) 1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection) 1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased) 1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned) 1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 10 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8) 1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9) 1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13) 1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1797 "Large Eagle” Half Eagle (Survival 20)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17) 1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1796 “Stars" Quarter Eagle (Survival 40) 1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
Silly question. If Hansen were to get every coin on that list (say even a 1933 $20 that no one knew he had and the few unique coins - 1870-s, etc.) then could he say he had the finest overall and most complete collection of US coins in private hands ever assembled? Correct?
Will he add territorials or patterns while waiting?
Perhaps the "Hansen, Bass, Simpson, Bender Collection" would get the 3 unique coins into the group.
Silly question. If Hansen were to get every coin on that list (say even a 1933 $20 that no one knew he had and the few unique coins - 1870-s, etc.) then could he say he had the finest overall and most complete collection of US coins in private hands ever assembled? Correct?
Will he add territorials or patterns while waiting?
Perhaps the "Hansen, Bass, Simpson, Bender Collection" would get the 3 unique coins into the group.
If you use the Eliasberg classic set as the guide for a completed set of US Coin, and Hansen acquires the 23 remaining, I think you could say....
1- Hansen and Eliasberg are the only two collectors to have a complete US set.
2- Hansen set have more coins, including the 1870s half dime, the 1866 “No Motto” dollar, and the updates from where Eliasberg’s set ended. (I agree, a more complete set)
3- The overall condition of the Hansen set is considerable better than Eliasberg.
Finest overall, Finest of All Time, Greatest Collection of All Time. These terms are measured differently by different people. Even if Hansen accomplished everything that you describe, if he don’t purchase the finest ultra-rarities, he will come up short in the eyes of some. I beleive this contributed to the importance to acquire the 1885 dollar that he did, and not a lower grade. Hansen has not lived down the decision of buying the 1804 dollar.
We were disappointed that we didn't end up with the 1884 and the 1885 as well. However, we think that our 1884 is nicer and ultimately we were happy to end up with the 1885. As Mr. Black Cat asked after the auction, we had a few increments left in the bidding, so we weren't going down without a fight.
Laura and I had both been chasing the pair for the past year, but the final result ended up better for us and we were able to buy a few other coins at the show for the collection.
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@Gazes said:
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
Maybe he will buy it (the mystery 1885) down the road. I would imagine current owner would want top dollar and it looks like Hansen can and will step up to the plate.
Current owner said in a phone call that he’s never selling while he’s alive and that he’s writing it into his will that the coin is to be sold to me at market value after he passes
But one never knows....
The problem is that wills can easily go missing and when a will cannot be found, many jurisdictions interpret it to have been destroyed/voided by the testator. It is far from a guarantee. Also, how does one establish "market value" in the absence of a comparable auction appearance? If I am interpreting the comments correctly, it appears that the raw coin blows the Eliasberg coin away and would presumably be worth much more once encapsulated.
I think one thing to remember when looking at individual coins in the Hansen collection is that his goal is to collect one of everything! This is a goal very few have ever tried to take on. So sometimes his options may be more limited or compromises must be made. If one is building just the finest St Gaudens set or the just the Finest Trade dollar set, I think your approach should be different. If you are trying to get one of everything sometimes its just not possible that every coin is all there.
Will he add territorials or patterns while waiting?
This is my observation. Unless Hansen is building territorials or patterns sets outside the registery, I don’t beleive them to be a focus, presently. The three places that see the greatest activity is:
1- The Eliasberg Quest with 23 to go.
2- The Major Varieties , CS, about 60 to go.
3- A complete proof set, about 350 to go.
I think he will eventually build a Top 5 modern commememative set to go along with his completed pre- 1964.
I think at some point, he will add all the bullion and eagles, he has most of the buffalos.
This will leave territorials, patterns, and colonial. I would not doubt they are in the long term plan, but not sure where or the order.
The last thing I would say is that I beleive we will continue to see a lot of upgrades. I not sure if he is planning to stop until every coin is a condition census top 5.
Also, it appear he is showing some interest in minor Varities and Dies. I am not sure of the level of interest.
Proof Trade Dollar Feature (updated form 7/1/2018)
I first discussed this Proof Trade Dollars in a feature last summer. With the recent purchased of the finest known proof 1885 at the FUN show, the Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885) set is now completed.
The Proof Trade Dollar set is describe by PCGS this way: Assembling a complete set of proof trade dollars is even more difficult than the mint state collection. The true stoppers are the ultra-rare 1884 and 1885. Of the ten 1884 specimens that were minted, PCGS had graded nine, with the highest grade being a magnificent PR67. There are only five 1885 proofs, with the most recent sale being the Eliasberg specimen which realized nearly $1 million when auctioned by Bowers and Merena.
In a press release the past week by PCGS, the set was describe: With a grade point average of 68.736, the D.L. Hansen Trade Dollar Proof Set is now 100 percent complete and ranked as the number one proof Trade Dollar collection, 1873 to 1885. The listing for the entire set can be viewed in the newly redesigned PCGS Set Registry®.https://www.pcgs.com/news/finest-known-1885-trade-dollar-crossover
The total number of coins needed to complete this set is only 13. As small as the set is, only seven completed sets are listed in the all-time PCGS registry. Previously before Hansen Collection update, the finest was a current set owned by Simpson, set rating of 66.65 (due to Hansen’s upgrade, the rating dropped to 65.96, and now in fourth place). The Hall of Fame Legend Collection with the rating of 66.56 remains in second. The third place is the Louis Eliasberg's proof trade dollar set described with impeccable quality with rating of 66.03. The remaining three sets drops significantly in quality (Waldo, Norweb, and Carter).
I will describe the 13 piece Hansen Proof Trade Dollars in three parts. First is “The Pair”. This is the 1884 & 1885 coins. I hope you find the brief discussion interesting. I am not sure how the 1884 was obtained, but we know Hansen purchased the 1885 at the Heritage 2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction in Orlando last week. The 1885 was not the only Proof Trade Dollar that he purchased. The other 3 coins will be briefly discussed in part two. The last part will be a repeat from the summer discussion on the purchase of coins from the Perfection Collection. This key purchase laid the foundation for the set greatness. Let’s begin.
The Hansen Pair
This appears to be the first time in history that the finest known Proof Trade Dollar 1884 and 1885 has paired up in a World Class Proof Trade Dollar set. The “Eliasberg Pair” comprises the finest 1885 and a third finest 1884. The Eliasberg Pair was featured in the Famous Eliasberg Proof Trade Dollar set as well as most recent HOF Legend set. A new era begins with the pairing of the two finest coins, but it comes with controversy. There are many in the community that is saddened with the splitting of the two Eliasberg coins. It may be a break in history, but it also can viewed positively as a new beginning. This could be especially true if the Hansen Collection is someday globally recognized as the Greatest Collection of US Coins of All-Times. This new pair would be the center pieces of the Proof Trade Dollar portion of that great collection.
1884 Proof Trade Dollar, PR67 CAC PCGS Coin #7064 / PCGS Serial #05781400 / POP 1/0
William Idler - Capt. John W. Haseltine and Steven K. Nagy - William Forrester Dunham, who sold his collection intact to B. Max Mehl in 1939 - William Forrester Dunham Collection - B. Max Mehl 6/1941:1150:$315 - Floyd Starr Collection - Stack's 10/1992:844, $176,000 - Jay Parrino ("The Mint") - Goldbergs 10/2000:1784, bought back at $510,600 - Jay Parrino - Heritage 11/2003:8312, not sold - Jay Parrino, DL Hansen Collection by private transaction
.
. 1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
Three other FUN Proof Trade Dollars
In addition, the spectacular 1885, Hansen purchased three other replacement coins. The first specimen is the 1875 PR67. This was described as 1875 Trade Dollar, PR67 / Type One Reverse/ One of the Finest-Known Examples. The coin had a nice description: This Superb Gem is shows the Type One Reverse with a berry beneath the eagle's claw. The survival rate for this issue seems high, with several hundred specimens graded at each of the major services (including possible resubmissions). Superb Gems are rare, however, as just two such pieces have been seen at PCGS, and only six coins have been rated at PR67 by NGC, with none finer at either company (11/18). This coin is fully struck with superior, seemingly flawless preservation and rich hues of variegated patina that adorn both sides. Included are shades of bright-green, deep-violet, charcoal-red, and beige. The only pedigree given was the coin was from The Greensboro Collection. But the coin did sale in the Heritage 2017 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $30,550. In that auction, the coin was pedigreed to The Sounder Collection. The coin also appeared in the Heritage 2014 CSNS US Coin Signature Auction where it realized $38,187.50. Hansen paid $38,500, so may not have been a bad deal.
1875 Proof Trade Dollar, PR67 PCGS Coin #7055 / PCGS Serial #25343353 / POP 2/0
Ex: (Heritage 2014 CSNS US Coin Signature Auction where it realized $38,187.50); The Sounder Collection (Heritage 2017 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $30,550); The Greensboro Collection (2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $38,500), DL Hansen Collection
The next specimen is the 1879 PR68CA. This was described as 1879 T$1 PR68 Cameo NGC PR68 Cameo / Incredible Quality, Among the Finest Known. The coin description: here is a spectacular, untoned example that showcases a depth of contrast rarely seen on any Trade dollar issue. The design elements are fully struck, and fields are so well-mirrored that the depth of reflectivity is seemingly infinite. An exceptional proof type coin of this important commercial trade coin. This coin is also from The Greensboro Collection. Hansen paid $39,600.
1877 Proof Trade Dollar, PR68CA PCGS Coin # 87059 / PCGS Serial # 36467556 / POP 3/0
Ex: (Ex: Dallas Signature (Heritage, 10/2006), lot 2327, which realized $63,250. The Greensboro Collection (2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $39,600), DL Hansen Collection
The last specimen is PCGS POP 1/0. The 1882 specimen replaces the second finest 1882 known that is in Hansen’s Collection. This coin was described as 1882 Trade Dollar, PR68 Cameo / Important Proof-Only Issue /Finest Certified at PCGS. The coin description: The 1882 Trade dollar was not a well-struck issue, and many examples seen show a soft strike on Liberty's head and the upper stars. This delightful specimen shows full radials on all stars and just the slightest softness on Liberty's hair. The other design elements are sharply detailed throughout. The frosty devices contrast boldly with the deeply mirrored fields, producing a stunning cameo effect. The impeccably preserved surfaces are enhanced by shades of low-intensity pale gold toning, with a few hints of electric-blue at the peripheries. Overall visual appeal is terrific. The Registry Set enthusiast will find no suitable replacement for this spectacular coin. This coin is also from The Greensboro Collection. Hansen paid $144,000.
1882 Proof Trade Dollar, PR68CA CAC PCGS Coin # 87062 / PCGS Serial # 06572944 / POP 1/0
Ex: Ex: The Sounder Collection (Heritage 2017 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $94,000); The Greensboro Collection (2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $144,000), DL Hansen Collection
Summer 2018 Purchase of the Perfection Proof Trade Dollar set
The Hansen collection upgraded 10 of the 13 coins that increase the set GPA w/ top set bonus to 68.62. The upgraded included 4 top Pop 1/0 PCGS certified coins. At the time, I said that the set will need to add the 1885 proof to reach the finest of all-time position. I also said, the finest graded specimen (PR63+ CA) is in the Simpson current finest set, so that one may be off the market. The Eliasberg specimen may be out the somewhere. This specimen is not certified (by PCGS), but it is estimated having a grade of MS65CA. The acquisition this coin would elevate the set to undisputable finest of all-time. Little did I know that it would show up a few months later in the last week’s FUN Auction.
These upgrades are from the Perfection Collection and are beautiful and some of the finest coins known for this denomination. There were a few others from the Perfection purchase, but this is a grouping of the finest.
1874 T$1 PR66+ PCGS POP 2/0
1876 T$1, CA PR67CA PCGS POP 1/0
1880 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0 (No picture)
1881 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0
1882 T$1 Trade, DC PR67+ DC PCGS POP 1/1 NOTE: This coin was replaced by a POP 1/0 FUN purchase
I'm rarely awestruck, but seeing these laid out like this Currin is really wonderful. Thanks for all your efforts in making this a terrific and historic blog. I just wonder what its going to be like 5 and 10 years from now if this keeps up. I really get tachycardia from such modern coins, being that I only collect pre-1840, but perhaps I should open thinking one of these days. Bruce did you think this is now the finest set ever assembled in its totality at this point? Even the duplicates are now becoming of such high quality.
@tradedollarnut said:
That price for the 1882 is crazy. I’d like to thank him for restoring my sanity from buying the Knoxville 1883
irrespective of price, do you feel his 1882 is the finest for that date? thanks
No idea. The nuances of ranking common date trade dollars (combining non cam, cam, deep cam and killer color) are very complex. Probably comes down to personal preference
@tradedollarnut said:
That price for the 1882 is crazy. I’d like to thank him for restoring my sanity from buying the Knoxville 1883
irrespective of price, do you feel his 1882 is the finest for that date? thanks
No idea. The nuances of ranking common date trade dollars (combining non cam, cam, deep cam and killer color) are very complex. Probably comes down to personal preference
@GoBust said:
Bruce did you think this is now the finest set ever assembled in its totality at this point? Even the duplicates are now becoming of such high quality.
Probably. It’s really hard to compare grades from different eras - PCGS proof grades are probably a point higher now from when I built my set. With that said, Eliasberg’s common date proofs weren’t that outstanding. Simpson’s are, but his rarities are a bit lacking. I had a bit of both but not uber graded common dates.
And trade dollars are more than just the proofs. My old set in unc blows away anything ever put together. The new owner intends on doing a proof set as well.
@tradedollarnut said:
That price for the 1882 is crazy. I’d like to thank him for restoring my sanity from buying the Knoxville 1883
irrespective of price, do you feel his 1882 is the finest for that date? thanks
No idea. The nuances of ranking common date trade dollars (combining non cam, cam, deep cam and killer color) are very complex. Probably comes down to personal preference
Gazes
I was going to discuss depth of the Proof Trade Dollars over the weekend, so this is a preview. If you have doubts that the 1882 PR68CA PCGS POP 1/0 is the finest, then maybe his 1882 PR67DC PCGS POP 1/1 will be more satisfying. If you still have doubts, then let’s go with his 1882 PCGS PR67+ CA POP 1/2. Being the Hansen collection have the Top 3 specimens, then I believe he has the field covered.
@tradedollarnut said:
That price for the 1882 is crazy. I’d like to thank him for restoring my sanity from buying the Knoxville 1883
irrespective of price, do you feel his 1882 is the finest for that date? thanks
No idea. The nuances of ranking common date trade dollars (combining non cam, cam, deep cam and killer color) are very complex. Probably comes down to personal preference
Gazes
I was going to discuss depth of the Proof Trade Dollars over the weekend, so this is a preview. If you have doubts that the 1882 PR68CA PCGS POP 1/0 is the finest, then maybe his 1882 PR67DC PCGS POP 1/1 will be more satisfying. If you still have doubts, then let’s go with his 1882 PCGS PR67+ CA POP 1/2. Being the Hansen collection have the Top 3 specimens, then I believe he has the field covered.
@tradedollarnut said:
That price for the 1882 is crazy. I’d like to thank him for restoring my sanity from buying the Knoxville 1883
irrespective of price, do you feel his 1882 is the finest for that date? thanks
No idea. The nuances of ranking common date trade dollars (combining non cam, cam, deep cam and killer color) are very complex. Probably comes down to personal preference
Gazes
I was going to discuss depth of the Proof Trade Dollars over the weekend, so this is a preview. If you have doubts that the 1882 PR68CA PCGS POP 1/0 is the finest, then maybe his 1882 PR67DC PCGS POP 1/1 will be more satisfying. If you still have doubts, then let’s go with his 1882 PCGS PR67+ CA POP 1/2. Being the Hansen collection have the Top 3 specimens, then I believe he has the field covered.
In your enthusiasm, you are falling into a trap. Coin grading has changed too much over the past decade to definitively call anything without a long history the finest known. Simpson’s set is spectacular and there are old time coins that are amazing. When you’re splitting hairs between proofs that change two grades over a trivial issue, you have to be careful not to talk in absolutes
Yes Bruce, your circulation strike were amazing. It's going to be tough for BC to improve it. Seeing these coins makes me understand how you became a tradedollarnut despite your normal looking outward appearance. Of course that's one "Bust"nut to another. See you soon I hope.
@Gazes said:
I think one thing to remember when looking at individual coins in the Hansen collection is that his goal is to collect one of everything! This is a goal very few have ever tried to take on. So sometimes his options may be more limited or compromises must be made. If one is building just the finest St Gaudens set or the just the Finest Trade dollar set, I think your approach should be different. If you are trying to get one of everything sometimes its just not possible that every coin is all there.
Gazes.. I think your comments are all true, but also I think the Hansen’s Proof Trade Dollar is a attempt to assemble the finest. There are several objectives that a collector can have in assembling sets. Some collectors like coins that match, some may like color, some like untone, and some want the finest specimens that are available, as it appear to me for this set. You are correct in collecting one of everything, at times you will need to compromise. The Trade Dollar series turned out really well from top to bottom. Not much compromising.
@Gazes said:
I think one thing to remember when looking at individual coins in the Hansen collection is that his goal is to collect one of everything! This is a goal very few have ever tried to take on. So sometimes his options may be more limited or compromises must be made. If one is building just the finest St Gaudens set or the just the Finest Trade dollar set, I think your approach should be different. If you are trying to get one of everything sometimes its just not possible that every coin is all there.
Gazes.. I think your comments are all true, but also I think the Hansen’s Proof Trade Dollar is a attempt to assemble the finest. There are several objectives that a collector can have in assembling sets. Some collectors like coins that match, some may like color, some like untone, and some want the finest specimens that are available, as it appear to me for this set. You are correct in collecting one of everything, at times you will need to compromise. The Trade Dollar series turned out really well from top to bottom. Not much compromising.
What I have found to be remarkable is that as time has gone on, it seems that there is less and less compromise and he is trying to get not only every coin but the finest when possible. I know there are exceptions but there are many examples where he could have just bought an avg coin to fill a slot and he has gone out of his way to get the best.
Comments
Which one is better? PCGS has a PR 62, PR 63+ CAM and PR 62 CAM in its census with Hansen's PR 65+ CAM. NGC lists one in PR 66 (which is now the Hansen coin) and a PR 61 and PR 63 CAM. So which coin out there do you believe is better?
The raw one
I'm not sure there is really anything negative to be said about obtaining an important key rarity in PCGS PR65+. I thought the coin was pretty darn awesome. I like being happy when collectors battle to get great coins. I usually feel bad for a little while (sometimes a year!) when i'm outbid and then it dawn's on me that another collector thought the coin was as cool as I did. Would like to have a chance to see the raw 1885 proof someday.
I have also held four 1885s in my hand. The Norweb coin is heavily hairlined and has been cigar smoked. The Carter coin has been gently mishandled but since nicely retoned. The Eliasberg coin is lightly hairlined and somewhat weakly struck with patches of funky toning but otherwise pristine. The raw coin is the best of the bunch as the fifth specimen was reportedly seriously mishandled.
Why has the raw coin not been submitted to a TPG?
Because the owner enjoys it just the way it is. He’s owned it raw for near four decades
Currin, where is the 1817/4 (11 known) Capped Half Dollar in your half dollar bake off? Certainly one of the keys to the entire half dollar series of any type and obvious rarest lettered edge capped half dollar. All of the Bust Half Nut Club crazies see this coin as head and shoulders above all other capped lettered edge halves in importance. The 1838-O (9 known) obviously being a mint mark only available in proof in 1838 is the key to the Reeded Edge capped halves of course. Eliasberg bought his 1817/4 specimen which now resides in a PCGS AU53 holder directly from none other than Al Overton himself, the author of the treatise on early american half dollars. It is considered also to be the Wallace discovery coin. I'm not sure why the 1817/4 isn't listed in the Eliasberg set, he certainly owned it and it may have been one of the last, if not the last coin he added for completion. But I guess some overdates aren't included if other coins of the same date and mint origin are available? The 1815/2 certainly takes a back seat to those two American key rarities, although Sheridan Downey (top specialist in early american halves) will tell you that the 1815/2 is the most frequent half dollar that people ask him to buy. I have little doubt the Hansen collection will eventually include these. These two rare Eliasberg halves, 1817/4 and 1838-O, where put back together after the Gardner sale where they belong after being previously separated after the Eliasberg auction in 1997.
Looks like you have had a lot of fun with 1885 trade dollars Bruce. This Eliasberg/Morelan/Hansen example was the first I've been able to hold. I guess you've had a passion for that series for a long time.
That’s why I’m Tradedollarnut.
Read the article in the last Gobrecht Journal. I don't have it handy.
The reason I chose to sell the Eliasberg coins is because Kevin Lipton told me the raw coin was a lot nicer. Jim Halpetin believes the same - he sold it to the current owner a long time ago. I felt there was a ‘finest’ premium attached to the Eliasberg coin that would eventually disappear if they were correct. After seeing the coin ‘in-hand’, they were indeed.
How many of those forty years have you had a standing offer on that coin?
You certainly are a tradedollarnut!
No, TDN holds NO sour grapes-really. Nor do I. I was just angry I put too much time and effort into the wrong pony. BUT the raw coin is finer, and we WILL own it one day.
I have no problem w/the 65+.
No sour grapes at all. LOVE the Eliasberg coins.
It's pretty much a date and mintmark set, plus a few hub or planchet changes like:
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/complete-sets/master-sets/u-s-coins-complete-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1792-1964/alltimeset/149665
The 1817/4 would be at the next level - Red Book die variety set.
Although you bring up a good point - are the above more like die varieties that date x mintmark things?
It seems to me if Hansen wants to equal or exceed Eliasberg, buying the 1885 makes perfect sense. Of the slabbed coins it is the best and it came up for sale. Who knows if he waited for the "raw" coin when, if ever, it would be available (assuming it is better).
That's an excellent question to form, how many overdates was Eliasberg missing from his collection? If any? I'm sure the genius of this board will know the answer.
Coingrats to Hansen for buying the 1885 trade dollar. Very nice and rare coin.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said:
"@specialist said:
I ...
I ... I ... my ...
I ...I ...I... I ... I ...Legend ... I …"
Some folks have such stature in their field that the only way they can tell a story or express an opinion is in the first person - "I." IMO, there is nothing wrong with this. I didn't notice anything you pointed out in @specialist's post. I don't judge folks by their number of posts or stars. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing who you are or your numismatic credentials so maybe you too are qualified to use the word "I" a lot when writing about your specialty if that is the case.
To make my point, I can think of some examples that we all should tolerate. The word "I" was used all the time by a former president. After all, he was the greatest so "I" was appropriately overused in his speeches. We may think a great explorer or famous inventor relating his path to discovery by using the word "I" to be immodest but again the word "I" is perfectly appropriate. "We" and "they" were not involved.
You're right, eleven self-references in a short post in a thread about someone else's collection probably isn't excessively narcissistic. Post edited. Thanks!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Current owner said in a phone call that he’s never selling while he’s alive and that he’s writing it into his will that the coin is to be sold to me at market value after he passes
But one never knows....
Count Down 23 – First countdown for 2019
Mr. Big, as the purchase was described by an Early America Proof Specialist and Collector. JB and DLH may have pulled off a miracle with this purchase. The stars were aligned against them in making the purchase of the Eliasberg 1885 Proof Trade Dollar. When I say stars, I don’t mean the ones in the sky. By some people in the community, he has already been pegged as a second tier collector that doesn’t have a chance of catching the big fish. If he doesn’t win another Mr. Big, he got this one! If you want to read more about the lead up to the auction (and it is very interesting), review some of the comments in this tread from a few days ago (last week). In addition, I have provided a link to another thread that you may find interesting.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1010936/eliasberg-1885-t-1-has-hit-1-million-dollars#latest
Usually at this point in the update, I provide some comments on the set. Being this is a significant coin placed in a significant set; I will provide some points around the Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885) set a little later this week. Let’s continue discussing the coin today.
There are several points of great significance to this coin. I will name a few, but there certainly can be others. If you know of anymore, please feel free to provide additional information.
1- The coin is a countdown coin in the Eliasberg Quest (was #10 on my list).
2- The coin is the finest known Proof 1885 Trade Dollar according to PCGS.
3- The coin has established a high bar for Top Sale in 2019 at $3,960,000.
4- The coin is the seventh addition to Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
5- The coin is 3rd PCGS 1/0 specimen in Hansen’s “Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities”
6- The coin is #6 on the list of the Top Auction Prices of All Time.
7- The coin completes the All-Time Finest “Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885)”
1885 Trade Dollar, PCGS PR65+ CA (NGC PR66) / Finest of Five Examples Known / Ex: Atwater-Eliasberg
This specimen is so famous that there no need to go into a lot of detail. I will say, the last public auction appearance for this specimen was the Bowers and Merena , 1997 sale of the Eliasberg Collection, where the coin realized $907,500. The coin sold privately for $3,300,000 in January 2006. Instead of going into a lot of details and descriptions as I usually do, I going to provide you a link where you can read more about the sale of this coin.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-trade-dollars/1885-t-1-pr66-ngc/a/1291-4553.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116
I believe this to be the paramount single coin addition to the Hansen Collections to date. This is based on what is made public, and we really don’t know if Hansen Collection has any private coins. I don’t believe this to be the last additional of this caliber, and 1885 may not finish in the Top 5 when all is said and done.
Congratulations DLH and JB!!! Everyone, please join me in congratulating the Hansen Collection Team on successfully sealing the deal on the Finest Known Atwater-Eliasberg-Morelan 1885 Trade Dollar.
1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA
PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
There are 23 remaining coins in the Eliasberg Quest. The 13 coins that are not listed in “complete registry set” are Bold below. Note: DLH was a partner in the purchase of the 1854-S Half Eagle being that he's a partner with DLRC, but after purchasing the coin, DLHC reported the specimen was sold to an undisclosed client.
Top 10
1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection)
1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection)
1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA)
1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection)
1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased)
1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned)
1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
Next 10
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8)
1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9)
1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13)
1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1797 "Large Eagle” Half Eagle (Survival 20)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1796 “Stars" Quarter Eagle (Survival 40)
1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
Last 3
1840-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 65)
1854-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
@Currin
Silly question. If Hansen were to get every coin on that list (say even a 1933 $20 that no one knew he had and the few unique coins - 1870-s, etc.) then could he say he had the finest overall and most complete collection of US coins in private hands ever assembled? Correct?
Will he add territorials or patterns while waiting?
Perhaps the "Hansen, Bass, Simpson, Bender Collection" would get the 3 unique coins into the group.
If you use the Eliasberg classic set as the guide for a completed set of US Coin, and Hansen acquires the 23 remaining, I think you could say....
1- Hansen and Eliasberg are the only two collectors to have a complete US set.
2- Hansen set have more coins, including the 1870s half dime, the 1866 “No Motto” dollar, and the updates from where Eliasberg’s set ended. (I agree, a more complete set)
3- The overall condition of the Hansen set is considerable better than Eliasberg.
Finest overall, Finest of All Time, Greatest Collection of All Time. These terms are measured differently by different people. Even if Hansen accomplished everything that you describe, if he don’t purchase the finest ultra-rarities, he will come up short in the eyes of some. I beleive this contributed to the importance to acquire the 1885 dollar that he did, and not a lower grade. Hansen has not lived down the decision of buying the 1804 dollar.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
A big splash by Hansen. What a huge coin. The greatest collection of our time.
We were disappointed that we didn't end up with the 1884 and the 1885 as well. However, we think that our 1884 is nicer and ultimately we were happy to end up with the 1885. As Mr. Black Cat asked after the auction, we had a few increments left in the bidding, so we weren't going down without a fight.
Laura and I had both been chasing the pair for the past year, but the final result ended up better for us and we were able to buy a few other coins at the show for the collection.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
The problem is that wills can easily go missing and when a will cannot be found, many jurisdictions interpret it to have been destroyed/voided by the testator. It is far from a guarantee. Also, how does one establish "market value" in the absence of a comparable auction appearance? If I am interpreting the comments correctly, it appears that the raw coin blows the Eliasberg coin away and would presumably be worth much more once encapsulated.
Thus ‘one never knows’
And it doesn’t blow away the Eliasberg coin. It’s equal or slightly finer
Have you or @specialist ever offered to submit it to PCGS (with him paying the fees) so that there is an official grade/record for the census?
I think one thing to remember when looking at individual coins in the Hansen collection is that his goal is to collect one of everything! This is a goal very few have ever tried to take on. So sometimes his options may be more limited or compromises must be made. If one is building just the finest St Gaudens set or the just the Finest Trade dollar set, I think your approach should be different. If you are trying to get one of everything sometimes its just not possible that every coin is all there.
Don't know if this has been discussed in the thread, but I'd like to know what manner of storage Hansen and TDN use for their coins.
Plain slabs, Intercept or other sacrificial element protection, controlled environment vault, plain bank vault, good safe or any combination of those.
???
In particular, any improvements taken over this method?
This is my observation. Unless Hansen is building territorials or patterns sets outside the registery, I don’t beleive them to be a focus, presently. The three places that see the greatest activity is:
1- The Eliasberg Quest with 23 to go.
2- The Major Varieties , CS, about 60 to go.
3- A complete proof set, about 350 to go.
I think he will eventually build a Top 5 modern commememative set to go along with his completed pre- 1964.
I think at some point, he will add all the bullion and eagles, he has most of the buffalos.
This will leave territorials, patterns, and colonial. I would not doubt they are in the long term plan, but not sure where or the order.
The last thing I would say is that I beleive we will continue to see a lot of upgrades. I not sure if he is planning to stop until every coin is a condition census top 5.
Also, it appear he is showing some interest in minor Varities and Dies. I am not sure of the level of interest.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Proof Trade Dollar Feature (updated form 7/1/2018)
I first discussed this Proof Trade Dollars in a feature last summer. With the recent purchased of the finest known proof 1885 at the FUN show, the Trade Dollars, Proof (1873-1885) set is now completed.
The Proof Trade Dollar set is describe by PCGS this way: Assembling a complete set of proof trade dollars is even more difficult than the mint state collection. The true stoppers are the ultra-rare 1884 and 1885. Of the ten 1884 specimens that were minted, PCGS had graded nine, with the highest grade being a magnificent PR67. There are only five 1885 proofs, with the most recent sale being the Eliasberg specimen which realized nearly $1 million when auctioned by Bowers and Merena.
In a press release the past week by PCGS, the set was describe: With a grade point average of 68.736, the D.L. Hansen Trade Dollar Proof Set is now 100 percent complete and ranked as the number one proof Trade Dollar collection, 1873 to 1885. The listing for the entire set can be viewed in the newly redesigned PCGS Set Registry®. https://www.pcgs.com/news/finest-known-1885-trade-dollar-crossover
The total number of coins needed to complete this set is only 13. As small as the set is, only seven completed sets are listed in the all-time PCGS registry. Previously before Hansen Collection update, the finest was a current set owned by Simpson, set rating of 66.65 (due to Hansen’s upgrade, the rating dropped to 65.96, and now in fourth place). The Hall of Fame Legend Collection with the rating of 66.56 remains in second. The third place is the Louis Eliasberg's proof trade dollar set described with impeccable quality with rating of 66.03. The remaining three sets drops significantly in quality (Waldo, Norweb, and Carter).
I will describe the 13 piece Hansen Proof Trade Dollars in three parts. First is “The Pair”. This is the 1884 & 1885 coins. I hope you find the brief discussion interesting. I am not sure how the 1884 was obtained, but we know Hansen purchased the 1885 at the Heritage 2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction in Orlando last week. The 1885 was not the only Proof Trade Dollar that he purchased. The other 3 coins will be briefly discussed in part two. The last part will be a repeat from the summer discussion on the purchase of coins from the Perfection Collection. This key purchase laid the foundation for the set greatness. Let’s begin.
The Hansen Pair
This appears to be the first time in history that the finest known Proof Trade Dollar 1884 and 1885 has paired up in a World Class Proof Trade Dollar set. The “Eliasberg Pair” comprises the finest 1885 and a third finest 1884. The Eliasberg Pair was featured in the Famous Eliasberg Proof Trade Dollar set as well as most recent HOF Legend set. A new era begins with the pairing of the two finest coins, but it comes with controversy. There are many in the community that is saddened with the splitting of the two Eliasberg coins. It may be a break in history, but it also can viewed positively as a new beginning. This could be especially true if the Hansen Collection is someday globally recognized as the Greatest Collection of US Coins of All-Times. This new pair would be the center pieces of the Proof Trade Dollar portion of that great collection.
1884 Proof Trade Dollar, PR67 CAC
PCGS Coin #7064 / PCGS Serial #05781400 / POP 1/0
William Idler - Capt. John W. Haseltine and Steven K. Nagy - William Forrester Dunham, who sold his collection intact to B. Max Mehl in 1939 - William Forrester Dunham Collection - B. Max Mehl 6/1941:1150:$315 - Floyd Starr Collection - Stack's 10/1992:844, $176,000 - Jay Parrino ("The Mint") - Goldbergs 10/2000:1784, bought back at $510,600 - Jay Parrino - Heritage 11/2003:8312, not sold - Jay Parrino, DL Hansen Collection by private transaction
.
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1885 Proof Trade Dollar, PR65+ CA
PCGS Coin #87065 / PCGS Serial #36982251 / POP 1/0
Ex: Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint Archibald Loudon Snowden in 1885; possibly William Woodin in 1910; William Cutler Atwater; Atwater Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1946), lot 378; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; Eliasberg Collection, Part II (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 2354, realized $907,500; Jay Parrino; Bruce Morelan via Legend for $1.5 million in 1999; Bruce Morelan traded this coin and the Eliasberg 1884 Trade dollar in 2006-2007 to John Albanese; both the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were then sold to Heritage by John Albanese; the 1885 was sold privately by Heritage Auctions for $3.3 million in January 2006; (Heritage 2019 January 9 - 14 FUN US Coins Signature Auction - Orlando #1291: Lot 4553, realized $3,960,000), DL Hansen Collection
Three other FUN Proof Trade Dollars
In addition, the spectacular 1885, Hansen purchased three other replacement coins. The first specimen is the 1875 PR67. This was described as 1875 Trade Dollar, PR67 / Type One Reverse/ One of the Finest-Known Examples. The coin had a nice description: This Superb Gem is shows the Type One Reverse with a berry beneath the eagle's claw. The survival rate for this issue seems high, with several hundred specimens graded at each of the major services (including possible resubmissions). Superb Gems are rare, however, as just two such pieces have been seen at PCGS, and only six coins have been rated at PR67 by NGC, with none finer at either company (11/18). This coin is fully struck with superior, seemingly flawless preservation and rich hues of variegated patina that adorn both sides. Included are shades of bright-green, deep-violet, charcoal-red, and beige. The only pedigree given was the coin was from The Greensboro Collection. But the coin did sale in the Heritage 2017 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $30,550. In that auction, the coin was pedigreed to The Sounder Collection. The coin also appeared in the Heritage 2014 CSNS US Coin Signature Auction where it realized $38,187.50. Hansen paid $38,500, so may not have been a bad deal.
1875 Proof Trade Dollar, PR67
PCGS Coin #7055 / PCGS Serial #25343353 / POP 2/0
Ex: (Heritage 2014 CSNS US Coin Signature Auction where it realized $38,187.50); The Sounder Collection (Heritage 2017 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $30,550); The Greensboro Collection (2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $38,500), DL Hansen Collection
The next specimen is the 1879 PR68CA. This was described as 1879 T$1 PR68 Cameo NGC PR68 Cameo / Incredible Quality, Among the Finest Known. The coin description: here is a spectacular, untoned example that showcases a depth of contrast rarely seen on any Trade dollar issue. The design elements are fully struck, and fields are so well-mirrored that the depth of reflectivity is seemingly infinite. An exceptional proof type coin of this important commercial trade coin. This coin is also from The Greensboro Collection. Hansen paid $39,600.
1877 Proof Trade Dollar, PR68CA
PCGS Coin # 87059 / PCGS Serial # 36467556 / POP 3/0
Ex: (Ex: Dallas Signature (Heritage, 10/2006), lot 2327, which realized $63,250. The Greensboro Collection (2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $39,600), DL Hansen Collection
The last specimen is PCGS POP 1/0. The 1882 specimen replaces the second finest 1882 known that is in Hansen’s Collection. This coin was described as 1882 Trade Dollar, PR68 Cameo / Important Proof-Only Issue /Finest Certified at PCGS. The coin description: The 1882 Trade dollar was not a well-struck issue, and many examples seen show a soft strike on Liberty's head and the upper stars. This delightful specimen shows full radials on all stars and just the slightest softness on Liberty's hair. The other design elements are sharply detailed throughout. The frosty devices contrast boldly with the deeply mirrored fields, producing a stunning cameo effect. The impeccably preserved surfaces are enhanced by shades of low-intensity pale gold toning, with a few hints of electric-blue at the peripheries. Overall visual appeal is terrific. The Registry Set enthusiast will find no suitable replacement for this spectacular coin. This coin is also from The Greensboro Collection. Hansen paid $144,000.
1882 Proof Trade Dollar, PR68CA CAC
PCGS Coin # 87062 / PCGS Serial # 06572944 / POP 1/0
Ex: Ex: The Sounder Collection (Heritage 2017 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $94,000); The Greensboro Collection (2019 FUN US Coins Signature Auction where the coin realized $144,000), DL Hansen Collection
Summer 2018 Purchase of the Perfection Proof Trade Dollar set
The Hansen collection upgraded 10 of the 13 coins that increase the set GPA w/ top set bonus to 68.62. The upgraded included 4 top Pop 1/0 PCGS certified coins. At the time, I said that the set will need to add the 1885 proof to reach the finest of all-time position. I also said, the finest graded specimen (PR63+ CA) is in the Simpson current finest set, so that one may be off the market. The Eliasberg specimen may be out the somewhere. This specimen is not certified (by PCGS), but it is estimated having a grade of MS65CA. The acquisition this coin would elevate the set to undisputable finest of all-time. Little did I know that it would show up a few months later in the last week’s FUN Auction.
These upgrades are from the Perfection Collection and are beautiful and some of the finest coins known for this denomination. There were a few others from the Perfection purchase, but this is a grouping of the finest.
1874 T$1 PR66+ PCGS POP 2/0
1876 T$1, CA PR67CA PCGS POP 1/0
1880 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0
(No picture)
1881 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0
1882 T$1 Trade, DC PR67+ DC PCGS POP 1/1 NOTE: This coin was replaced by a POP 1/0 FUN purchase
1883 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
That price for the 1882 is crazy. I’d like to thank him for restoring my sanity from buying the Knoxville 1883
irrespective of price, do you feel his 1882 is the finest for that date? thanks
I'm rarely awestruck, but seeing these laid out like this Currin is really wonderful. Thanks for all your efforts in making this a terrific and historic blog. I just wonder what its going to be like 5 and 10 years from now if this keeps up. I really get tachycardia from such modern coins, being that I only collect pre-1840, but perhaps I should open thinking one of these days. Bruce did you think this is now the finest set ever assembled in its totality at this point? Even the duplicates are now becoming of such high quality.
No idea. The nuances of ranking common date trade dollars (combining non cam, cam, deep cam and killer color) are very complex. Probably comes down to personal preference
thanks
The 1879 T$1 PR68 CAM is absolutely wicked. WOW!
Probably. It’s really hard to compare grades from different eras - PCGS proof grades are probably a point higher now from when I built my set. With that said, Eliasberg’s common date proofs weren’t that outstanding. Simpson’s are, but his rarities are a bit lacking. I had a bit of both but not uber graded common dates.
And trade dollars are more than just the proofs. My old set in unc blows away anything ever put together. The new owner intends on doing a proof set as well.
Gazes
I was going to discuss depth of the Proof Trade Dollars over the weekend, so this is a preview. If you have doubts that the 1882 PR68CA PCGS POP 1/0 is the finest, then maybe his 1882 PR67DC PCGS POP 1/1 will be more satisfying. If you still have doubts, then let’s go with his 1882 PCGS PR67+ CA POP 1/2. Being the Hansen collection have the Top 3 specimens, then I believe he has the field covered.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I dont disagree
That blast white 1879 is wicked!
In your enthusiasm, you are falling into a trap. Coin grading has changed too much over the past decade to definitively call anything without a long history the finest known. Simpson’s set is spectacular and there are old time coins that are amazing. When you’re splitting hairs between proofs that change two grades over a trivial issue, you have to be careful not to talk in absolutes
Yes Bruce, your circulation strike were amazing. It's going to be tough for BC to improve it. Seeing these coins makes me understand how you became a tradedollarnut despite your normal looking outward appearance. Of course that's one "Bust"nut to another. See you soon I hope.
Gazes.. I think your comments are all true, but also I think the Hansen’s Proof Trade Dollar is a attempt to assemble the finest. There are several objectives that a collector can have in assembling sets. Some collectors like coins that match, some may like color, some like untone, and some want the finest specimens that are available, as it appear to me for this set. You are correct in collecting one of everything, at times you will need to compromise. The Trade Dollar series turned out really well from top to bottom. Not much compromising.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
What I have found to be remarkable is that as time has gone on, it seems that there is less and less compromise and he is trying to get not only every coin but the finest when possible. I know there are exceptions but there are many examples where he could have just bought an avg coin to fill a slot and he has gone out of his way to get the best.