@tradedollarnut said:
Peace dollars were moderns to Eliasberg. And nobody gave a crap about needing gems then...
It could be said that many of the recent great collectors also don’t give a crap about moderns. A great thing about Hansen is that he does care about moderns.
Extremely Rare is how Heritage described the Overton 102a, 1817/4 Half Dollar. Mr. Link brought this coin to our attention several months ago. He proposed a question if it should be included as a must (required) coins. The debate is now moot, because he has one. This were Mr. Links thoughts that he shared on this thread back in April 2019: Eliasberg was thought to be complete in 1950, but he really was complete in 1953 when he purchased the Al Overton 1817/4 (the discovery coin from Wallis by all accounts and finest known). The key capped bust half dollar for redbook set. Its a coin I've grown rather fond of in my middle years. Really should be considered for inclusion in the challenge set. I was very surprised and intrigued when it wasn't included in the set. It is beyond just date and mint mark. Was a regular issue coin that circulated with PCGS AU53 the highest graded extant and all other examples below XF. Eliasberg sought and obtained the finest known example for $1500 in 1953 as apparently he decided he needed it for his set. Bust half dollar nuts essentially all view the 1817/4 is as the important key for the set as the 1823/2 quarter is key for capped bust quarters. In my opinion one of the five most important pre-1839 silver coins. Of course there are no less than five 1817s in the redbook set including two overdates of course and two coins that are die states which don't really fit the Eliasberg challenge. The 1817/4 is considered one of the top 100 US coins as well by the top 100 treatise and PCGS. I think that makes the Eliasberg/Overton/Wallis 1817/4 just a little bit more special. What do you think Currin? It would mean of course Del Loy should strive for 22 more coins. How many others might consider this a good addition for the esteemed Mr. Hansen?
The finest example (Eliasberg/Overton/Wallis) is not presently available due to it being one of the highlights in Mr. Links World Class Bust Collection. Although, this is not the finest known example, nor does it equals the specimen that Eliasberg owned, Still to own one of these is a dream come true. Ask anyone in Bust Half Nut Club, this is one of the coins! Maybe, the coin. This is what PCGS Expert Ron Guth had to say: The 1817/4 Overdate Half Dollar is the most famous and valuable of all the Capped Bust Half Dollars. Only ten examples are known of this variety, several of which have been discovered within the past decade. Most of the known examples are of the Overton 102a variety, which means they show a somewhat vertical die crack on the obverse. This crack, and the eventual removal or destruction of the die, is believed to be the cause of this variety's exceptional rarity. The finest example is the PCGS AU53 from the Eliasberg Collection (and, coincidentally, the first example of the variety discovered by E.T. Wallis circa 1930). Wallis' asking price of $2,500 in 1934 pales in comparison to the $356,500 it realized in its last auction appearance in 2009! For anyone who thinks that all of the great coins have been found, it is important to realize that four of the eleven known 1817/4 Half Dollars have been discovered since 2005, and that the most recent find was in late 2013 or early 2014, when an example was purchased as a Punctuated Date 1817!
Mr. Guth mentions eleven know examples. The Heritage 2019 ANA World's Fair of Money US Coins Signature Auction in Chicago where the coin was made available, they listed a roster of elevens coins. So, that number appears consistent and correct. On Heritage’s Roster of 1817/4 Half Dollars, Hansen’s coin was list as #6, just outside the top five. From a member of the Bust Half Nut Club that indicated that #6 is the order for the Hansen coin that is pretty much agreed upon within club. There may be some differences with coins above Hansen’s for different rosters and lists. For example, Heritage listed the XF Detailed NGC as number 2. Some would disagree with ranking due to the environmental damage to the coin. I think the Hansen coin is in a good solid place at six, and is a PCGS Certified Condition Census POP 2/2 Specimen.
1817/4 Half Dollar, O-102a, VF20, Extremely Rare, The Johnson-Witham Example
I believe this was a good pickup for Hansen. Will he someday upgrade? Maybe, especially if Mr. Link’s Eliasberg coin was to come available. The Charlton Meyer/D. Brent Pogue VF35 PCGS specimen would be interesting if it became available just from the fact that it is a different die version O-102.
This coin is viewed the PCGS set makers as a Major Variety. That is the reason that I did not have it as a required coin as Mr. Link previously suggested. I think Mr. Link is correct; a good debate on where it belongs can be made. If you were following back when I made the requirement list, I did place the 1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof in the required list, and it is considered a Major Variety. I have learned much more about the 1817/4 Half Dollar than I knew then, much from Mr. Link, and if I had a do over, I might just include it, but as I said before, now it just a moot point.
I have tried to highlight a few things with this fascinating coin without get to long with the post. If you like to read more about this coin, the Heritage list was very interesting:
This coin realized $186,000. PCGS Price Guide Value is $215,000. So I guess you could say Hansen got a bargain. Heritage described the coin as: This VF20 piece shows attractive light tan patination over both sides, taking on deeper hues in the recessed areas and around the peripheries, where reddish-brown and bluish-purple accents add to the eye appeal. The design elements are generally well centered on the planchet and exhibit strong definition for the designated grade level. Liberty's drapery and clasp are sharp, as are all letters in LIBERTY, and the eye and eyelid show clearly. The eagle's plumage is about two-thirds delineated, and all horizontal shield lines are separated. Portions of the right sides of both obverse and reverse reveal minor strike softness, a typical characteristic of the variety, but even these areas stand out on the present coin. The dentilation is complete except on the upper-right obverse. Remnants of the underdigit 4 are clearly visible beneath the 7, including serifs and crossbar. The small notch on the final star, believed to be the trademark of engraver John Reich, is evident, and the vertical die crack characteristic of the die state bisects Liberty portrait. Uniformly distributed light contact marks are no more numerous or severe than what would be expected of a coin that experienced moderate circulation. This problem-free specimen is sure to capture the attention not only of Bust half dollar specialists, but of advanced numismatists in general.
Provenance: Stewart Witham example, O-102a. Discovered by Ohio coin dealer Ed Johnson, who owned it in the 1940s; purchased by Stewart Witham in 1966; offered privately in 1983; ANA Signature (Heritage, 8/2010), lot 3147; Heritage 2019 ANA World's Fair of Money, $186,000 - D.L. Hansen Collection
Great update and review Currin. You continue to amaze! Congratulations to Del on obtaining the 1817/4 key to the Capped Bust Lettered Edge Half Dollars and the final key added to the famed Eliasberg set.
You just don’t know what Hansen will add or upgrade next. I guess you could call this another modern upgrade. Hansen and his team have received a little criticism recently due to the resources that is being placed in the modern coin collection. I don’t think the high end collectors and players can get a grip on what Hansen is doing with moderns. He told us late last fall that he was going to “cleanup” his modern collection, and indeed he has.
These coins are call “pennies” by some collectors. They are our lowest denomination coin after the half cent was abandoned about 150 years ago. The coppers are very popular with many collectors, but on the other hand, they are not by some. The copper coins don’t have the glamor of silver and gold, but they are interesting coins to collect. Hansen appears to like them. He added eight PCGS POP 1/0 coins to his collection.
Of these eight upgrades, six are from the Hall of Fame Thomas Irwin Collection. The Irwin set was retired 5/25/2017. I am not able to determine where the coins have resided the past two years. The collection at retirement had seven POP 1/0 coins. In a recent purchase, Hansen acquired all except the 1940-D MS68RD. I am not sure why that coin was not included in the purchase. It does not appear to be included in any sets at this time. With the six Irwin coins, he purchased another top pop from an August 25th Great Collection sale, 1953 MS67+ RD for $22,500. The eighth and final coin may the most interesting. The 1936 MS68RD upgrade was purchased at 2019 Heritage Long Beach sale. The coin sold for $1300 in a MS67+ RD PCGS holder with pedigree from the Charlie O’s collection. I would assume someone purchased the coin, had it upgraded to MS68RD by PCGS, and flipped to Hansen. I do not know what the new value of the coin would be. The total value of Hansen’s eight POP 1/0 is about $183,000.
In addition to the Top Pop coins, the upgrade included nine additional coins. All but one are tied for finest known, with the loner being the 1915 MS67+ RD POP 1/1 Specimen. All the coins are from The Thomas Irwin Collection, except the 1912 MS67+RD. I am not sure how the coin was acquired.
Hansen has moved his Lincoln Collection into what I would consider to be “World Class”. “For the Best of the Registry Winners of 2019”, Hansen Collection received the award for 13 out of 18 sets in the Major Set Category. It is important to note that not only are these sets the best currently, but most are also the All-Time Finest. This upgrade shows that Hansen is still working on “Cleaning Up” his modern sets. As can be easily seen in the list above, Hansen is not chasing the post 1964 coins yet. He is buying the finest, but generally speaking, he is not buying the Pop 1/0 specimens.
1924-D Lincoln Cent, RD MS66RD, PCGS POP 1/0, Ex: Thomas Irwin (HOF)
The 1924-D is the coin that I picked to highlight. Jaime Hernandez wrote this about the 1924-D: The 1924-D Lincoln cent is the most difficult Denver coin to find in the Lincoln cent series, from 1911 to 1929 in grades of MS65 Red or higher. According to the low certification number, this coin has withstood the test of time in the top spot. It appears the coin offered in an auction long ago. The firm Bowers & Merena auctioned the coin March, 1999. The coin realized a very reasonable sum of $8,338. The sale was name, Voigt & Lee, but I am not confident the pedigree would apply. The coin is presently valued at $50,000 by PCGS. This coin is now 1 of 20 PCGS TOP POP coins In the 1909-1958 “Wheat Ears” Collection. Will there be more; I think we can safely say yes. You may want to keep an eye out for the 1923-S PCGS MS65+ RD in The Legend’s Regency 34 Auction in a few weeks. They estimate the TOP POP coin at $50,000.00 - $55,000.00. The auctioneer wrote: We anticipate very strong bidding when this crosses the block! You better believe it.
I will conclude by stating that the Hansen Lincoln Collection is still missing the 1958 DDO (FS-101). Mr. Hansen will need this coin to seal the deal on Lincoln Cents. He was out bided in the most recent sale of the ESM Specimen. There are only three known, so the wait could be long for another chance. Let’s wait and see.
Provenance: Thomas Irwin
In comparing to Eliasberg’s specimen, we were told a couple days ago that like many other collectors in his day that “nobody gave a crap about gems”, that appear to be the truth. The Lincoln coins is an example of a series that Eliasberg may have actually used pocket change to fill holes for his common coins. Just kidding. His 1924-D Lincoln specimen is an estimated grade MS64BN with POP 96/587. Although, this coin was not sold in a lot as many of his modern day coins did, rather sold by Bowers & Merena May '96 price realized $412.50.
1924-D Lincoln Cent PCGS MS66RD PCGS Coin #2554 / PCGS Serial #09928169 / POP 1/0 PCGS Value = $50,000
Sorry, but no picture available for this coin.
Posting update 9/4/2019 The owner of the Irwin collection passed away maybe 4 or 5 years ago. Angel Dees had been holding on to the coins for his heir(s) and getting some upgraded along the way (and were even able to update the already retired registry sets).
I discussed a few months ago how difficult the St. Gaudens Double Eagle series for Hansen to improve. The series is very difficult to compete in registry condition census grades. Dr. and Mrs. Steven L. Duckor shaped the gold standard for the series more than 15 years ago. Since our last discussion, The Hansen Collection has not moved up in the registry. The collection is #4 All-Time, trailing two current sets and the retired Duckor set. I thought at the time that the St. Gaudens Double Eagle series have significant number of the PCGS Condition Census coins that reside outside of the registry. I still believe that to be true. Again, Hansen was able to find one at auction and upgrade his collection. PCGS describes the series as: The $20 St. Gaudens - so called because the designer's name was Augustus St. Gaudens - was first introduced in 1907 with Roman numerals at the date and a high relief design. Later in 1907, the design was modified with the normal date (called an Arabic date) and much lower relief. Late in 1908 the motto "In God We Trust" was added to the reverse. The $20 St. Gaudens is one of the most popular coins in the world due to its beautiful design. Collectors who would never have the inclination (or the bankroll!) to build a complete set will inevitably buy at least one $20 "Saint." Private ownership of gold was outlawed in the 1930s and many coins that had not been released were melted. This created many great rarities within the series. The key issues include the 1907 High Relief (MCMVII), 1908-S, 1920-S, 1921, 1924-D, 1924-S, 1925-D, 1925-S, 1926-D, 1927-D (a major rarity), 1927-S, 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D, and 1932. The 1933 date is also a great rarity and controversy rages even today as to whether this issue is legal to own.
Even though Hansen’s 53-piece mint strike set is #4 All-Time, I would not rate this set anywhere near the top for Hansen’s standard. This one upgrade is needed and is important, but one coin is not going to make any significant difference. He needs more that a hand full of Double Eagles to make a difference. This upgrade was just the start.
The opportunity for some high coins is coming available very soon. I did not see this listing, but I was told that Rollo Fox is selling his PCGS Registry #2 Set of St. Gaudens Double Eagles at the Winter Fun Show. The information that I received indicated the sale was seen on the back of the Sept issue of the Numismatist. The auction will be held on Heritage's Platinum night. This will be a great opportunity for Hansen, if he decides to pop on any of the coins. According to my quick assessment, of the 51coins listed in Fox Collection of St. Gaudens, there are 33 of them that could improve Hansen set. There are 10 coins that are finest or tied for finest certified, with five being PCGS Pop 1/0 specimens. Presently, The Hansen Collection does not list any PCGS POP 1/0 coins. Hansen has a gold bonanza that he can pick and choose a number of coins that he wants to bid on.
1922-S Double Eagle MS66+
There are only two 1922-S specimens graded PCGS MS66+ by PCGS. I am not sure the location of other MS66+ coin, it does not appear in the #1 set nor in the Fox Collection going to auction.
Only once a 1922-S coin of this quality has not been publicly auction. That was in the Stacks Bowers August 2019 ANA - Rarities Night. PCGS Expert David Akers have provided a nice description for the coin: At one time, the 1922-S was considered to be one of the premier rarities of the Saint-Gaudens series, more rare than such issues as the 1920-S, 1929, 1930-S, 1931 and 1932, among others. Then in the early 1950s a quantity was found in Europe, followed by several additional small hoards in the 1960s and early 1970s. As recently as 1983, a hoard of more than 200 pieces, many of them MS-63 to MS-65 quality, was discovered in Central America. As a result of these discoveries, the 1922-S is relatively common today (second only to the common 1923-D among mintmarked issues of the decade) and can be obtained without great difficulty in any Mint State grade up to and including MS-64. Gems remain rare, but enough are around that one can be located with only a moderate amount of searching. Of course, superb (MS-67) quality pieces, although a few do exist, are still all but impossible to locate. The 1922-S is nearly always very sharply struck. The surfaces are frosty and usually have well above average lustre for the series. The color, particularly on most top grade specimens, is characteristically excellent, usually a rich greenish gold with orange highlights or a deep yellow gold with a coppery tint. Many specimens have noticeable reddish or orange copper spots. Some specimens have a noticeable inner "rim" (die bulge) just inside the normal rim that runs through the stars and tops of the reverse letters and across the sun. Rounded, almost beveled, rims are seen on many examples of this issue.
Stack Bowers describes the specimen as Extraordinary Condition Rarity 1922-S Double Eagle- Tied for Finest Certified at PCGS. It is a nice coin with a respected pedigree. The coin is from the A & A Saints Collection and Bella Collection. What could be better? Stacks Bowers describes the coin’s appearance as: An extraordinary coin in a 1922-S double eagle, this frosty medium gold example also offers razor sharp to full striking detail to all major design elements. The silky smooth appearance of the surfaces is far superior to what is typically offered in a survivor of this challenging issue.
The sale of the coin realized $192,000. PCGS values the coin at $225,000 and the coin carries the CAC sticker. Another bargain? The Fox Collection has a MS65+. The coin would have been an upgrade, but I am not sure if Mr. Fox wanted the coin if he knew his set was going put his collection up for sale. The sale of the Fox Collection is going to be an interesting event to watch.
In comparison, The Eliasberg registry set describes his 1922-S Double Eagle Specimen as assumed grade MS63. Purchased at the Bowers & Ruddy Oct '82 Eliasberg sale by Jim Halperin and Steve Ivy for $1,320. Lot #1054.
Currin - The Thomas Irwin Collection of Lincoln Cents was held by his widow for the last two years.
Recently the collection was consigned to Angel Dees who
Bulbous job of marketing the coins
at the ANA in Chicago .i even bought several coins from this collection
Currin forgot to mention the high quality Matte proofs that D. L. Hansen also purchased .
The reason Mr. Hansen did not purchase the 1940 from the Thomas Irwin Collection is because he previously bought the one from the Gerald Martin Collection .
The 1912 was from the Thomas Irwin Collection and was upgraded at the ANA show .
Lastly the proceeds from the
Thomas Irwin Collection will go to fund a research facility at the Overlook Hospital in New Jersey
In the name of the owner of the Thomas Irwin Collection .
@STEWARTBLAYNUeMIS said:
Lastly the proceeds from the
Thomas Irwin Collection will go to fund a research facility at the Overlook Hospital in New Jersey
In the name of the owner of the Thomas Irwin Collection .
Thanks for adding this great information. Congratulation on the 2019 PLATINUM LEVEL sets. Also, you have the King of Lincolns, finest certified 1958 DDO. I thought I read somewhere that you have two of them, but my memory is getting shaky.
Probably most important, is there a link to Overland Hospital, where we can contribute in the name of Thomas Irwin? It may be that some of us that would like to make a contribution.. Thanks again
It was recently said by a prominent collector that while some noteworthy collectors are building Numismatic historic sets, Del Hanson is buying Lincoln Cents and Peace Dollars. This is not all true, because he is buying Roosies too. I have to admit, I was not expecting this purchase. JB told us that they was not chasing modern POP 1/0 specimens. He thought the risk outweighed the benefit. Therefore as you can see in the chart below, Roosevelt Dimes - Major Sets that contain clads, The Hansen Collection is not as strong as the silver sets. He has nine PCGS POP 1/0 certified Roosevelt Silver Dimes, but there were no TOP POP 1/0 in clad before this purchase.
1974 Roosevelt Clad Dime PCGS MS67FB – Only Full Band!
This is not just any POP 1/0 specimen. Previously, the 1974 was the last Roosevelt Dime that could not be found with full band designation. Last fall the first one was certified. The first time that I saw it was a thread originated by Paul titled: 1974 PCGS Roosevelt Dime MS67FB...the last dime graded in FB. There is not much additional information known on the coin. Someone mentioned earlier in the Hansen watch thread that he paid 5 figures for the 1974 MS67FB dime. I have not been able to verify, but I have no reason to believe the statement to be anything but true. I was told by a Roosie specialist that the 1974 was the last date/MM needed to complete the FB Roosie set and it was that way for over a decade. Several big Roosie hunters have been trying for years to pop that coin hence the 5 figure price tag.
It is not uncommon for Mr. Hansen to do things that we don’t expect. He did not need this coin to complete a FB set, because his clad set is not even 90% FB. But the coin is unique and he has a coin that no one else has. That is what makes great collections, right? I think, contrary to his critics, Mr. Hansen knows how to assemble a great collection. Is he even half way there yet? I don’t know.
Being Mr. Hansen is the only person that can complete a full band Roosie set, it will be interesting to watch and see if that is something he wants to do. There are other tough FB coins. So, the task is not easy, but is there anything easy about building the Greatest Collection ever assembled?
1974 Roosevelt Clad Dime PCGS MS67FB PCGS Coin #85145 / PCGS Serial #36622991 / POP 1/0 ONLY PCGS 1974 FULL BAND / PCGS Value = unknown
@Boosibri said:
I just don’t get his focus on modern high end coins vs really incredible 18th and 19th century true rarities
More bang for the buck? You can raise the overall grade average of the set faster by upgrading coins with a minimum weight of 1 that actually should have a weight of 0.01
Being Mr. Hansen is the only person that can complete a full band Roosie set
Not so as there is another clad where only one has been graded in FB (1978) and the coin resides in the Halcyon set. So at the present time neither Halcyon nor Hansen can complete an FB Roosie set.
So this auction has ended and no one has mentioned it. Did Hansen purchase this coin? It ended up selling for $380,000 w/o the juice. Being that there are only 2 specimens, I think this is a good price and if Hansen bought it, I think he got a tremendous deal. Should've gone higher.
So this auction has ended and no one has mentioned it. Did Hansen purchase this coin? It ended up selling for $380,000 w/o the juice. Being that there are only 2 specimens, I think this is a good price and if Hansen bought it, I think he got a tremendous deal. Should've gone higher.
The coin brought $456,000 against a PCGS price guide price of $349,600. The latter represents the amount it realized when it sold previously, in 2011.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So this auction has ended and no one has mentioned it. Did Hansen purchase this coin? It ended up selling for $380,000 w/o the juice. Being that there are only 2 specimens, I think this is a good price and if Hansen bought it, I think he got a tremendous deal. Should've gone higher.
The coin brought $456,000 against a PCGS price guide price of $349,600. The latter represents the amount it realized when it sold previously, in 2011.
Yes, I know this. The price guide in this case is worthless. The price guide follows the coin. If it sold for a million dollars, the PG would have to be adjusted.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
I understand the thinking and that may be correct. For the record, I don't collect anything that is considered modern. I did read an interesting article in a subscription based newsletter with a well respected numismatist who compared modern coins to the way modern art was viewed initially. People thought paying X dollars for an Andy Warhol was idiotic. Turned out to be a good investment. Another example is for years people said it was a waste to pay big money for the top graded Franklin Halves---coins that were modern and not so rare. Those top graded coins seem to continue to go up in value. I don't know what will happen, but my point is that there may be more potential in these coins then people are giving credit to.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
It just happened to me on a lower level, I bought a top Lincoln Cent for 6.000 USD 3 years ago that is now worth only 2.000 because a few more got graded.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
This.
It can also happen with $10 and $20 gold turning up from Europe.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
This.
It can also happen with $10 and $20 gold turning up from Europe.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
This.
It can also happen with $10 and $20 gold turning up from Europe.
@privaterarecoincollector said:
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
To what degree is the growth of the populations for Mercury Dimes a factor of the maturity of the TPGs versus the age of the coin? Is the risk that there are rolls of gem roosevelts out there that haven't been considering for grading yet, or that there are top tier Roosevelts raw in collections still?
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
For those of you who say this is a bad purchase because it's a modern coin hear this:
I know for a fact if one of you get the urge to make another one I have a serious buyer right now. Also if you can't make this coin in a 7FB they'll happily take a 4FB, 5FB, or 6FB for this date. This coin just doesn't exist in FB's and IMHO the said coin in 7FB that Hansen bought isn't a true FB dime. Too many hits on both lower bands and they are flat.
If you were to make this coin, you will be paid handsomely for it.
Good Luck!
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
For those of you who say this is a bad purchase because it's a modern coin hear this:
I know for a fact if one of you get the urge to make another one I have a serious buyer right now. Also if you can't make this coin in a 7FB they'll happily take a 4FB, 5FB, or 6FB for this date. This coin just doesn't exist in FB's and IMHO the said coin in 7FB that Hansen bought isn't a true FB dime. Too many hits on both lower bands and they are flat.
If you were to make this coin, you will be paid handsomely for it.
Good Luck!
Interesting and no doubt true. Still, there must be millions of uncirculated 74 dimes out there, so it’s hard for me to consider any of them all that important in the scheme of things.
Doesn’t mean I’m not going to start looking closer at my 74 Mint Sets.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
BTW, I like the value of the proof 75 dime at something north of 250K, and I’m (seriously) a big fan of Franklin Mint coins, so don’t think I’m a moderns hater. I just think that that the last micron of quality or strike is not that important, however old a coin may be.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
» show previous quotes
The coin brought $456,000 against a PCGS price guide price of $349,600. The latter represents the amount it realized when it sold previously, in 2011.
Yes, I know this. The price guide in this case is worthless. The price guide follows the coin. If it sold for a million dollars, the PG would have to be adjusted.
I still feel this was a steal at either price.”
Stooge (Paul): As usual, your instincts and assessments, especially as they relate to Roosevelt dimes, are “dead on”. I should have a few things to say about the 1975 No S Dime (“Hollywood” as the Heritage auctioneer put it) later this week and I will share my comments here and over on the Registry Forum thread dedicated to Roosevelt Dimes.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@privaterarecoincollector said:
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
To what degree is the growth of the populations for Mercury Dimes a factor of the maturity of the TPGs versus the age of the coin? Is the risk that there are rolls of gem roosevelts out there that haven't been considering for grading yet, or that there are top tier Roosevelts raw in collections still?
yes plus upgrades.
But I assume that the majority of all roosevelts is not graded incl. proof sets and thats different for high grade 18th century coins.
Finest known at PCGS means nothing if only all 20% of all high grade coins are graded.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
Pop reports keep on changing, even for older coins. There are upgrades and downgrades that make sure things don't stagnate.
Coins where grades matter less are when there are just a handful.
“But I assume that the majority of all roosevelts is not graded incl. proof sets and thats different for high grade 18th century coins.”
But, the vast majority of Roosie collectors who have a budget of, say, $25-$100 a coin really don’t have the luxury to pay attention to that fact.
Astute Roosie collectors (as young as teenagers) have paid $5-$10 a coin plus a grading fee and ended up grading, and selling an “end product” for $5,000 -$10,000 (or keeping the coin for their collection). These teenagers and sharp collectors on a budget (maybe 99% of them) can not consider “high grade 18th century coins” - right?
The opportunities for a seasoned Roosie collector with $50 -$100 in his pocket at a coin show are nearly endless. For $1 or $2 plus a $16 grading fee one can potentially make a $10,000 coin. I know someone who recently turned $9 plus a grading fee into nearly $40,000.00 (different modern series than Roosies, but same idea). How much does a collector need to bring to a typical coin show to score a good deal on a “high grade 18th century coin”?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
There's no need for us to argue over a coin's value here that we didn't even buy....
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@Boosibri said:
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
There's no need for us to argue over a coin's value here that we didn't even buy....
Does this mean that you're getting ready to tell us the rest of the story? (:>)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
We discussed a few weeks ago a St. Gaudens Mint State update to the Collection. I talked about how difficult the St. Gaudens Double Eagle series is in high grade mint state. I feel proof specimens may be harder. This is how PCGS describes the proof set: Want to get famous? Put together a set of these amazing, gorgeous, incredible, remarkable, indescribable, sensational coins! The ultimate in coin design, issued in Matte and Roman Finish Proof. The highest mintage coin in the set is only 167 pieces (!) and at present only one set can be assembled in PR65 or better condition. Don't worry, though, as a PR64 set or a mixture of PR64 and PR65/better coins would also be nothing short of spectacular.
I am somewhere dumbfounded this is not a more popular set. From viewing the registry, except Hansen, there is not anyone attempting to create a set in the registry. That is not to say there are not sets outside the registry. Mr. Hansen is presently at 62.5% completed, and the only current collector working on this series. According to the registry, the finest set is in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection. The national set is followed by five other retired completed sets: Eliasberg, Bloomfield, Garrett, Newcomer, and Trompeter. Eliasberg has the most outstanding private own set with the weighed GPA of 65.83.
This new coin is the first in the series. 1908 $20 Motto, Matte (Proof) is by no means a common coin. According to CoinFacts, the mintage was 101 with a survival estimate of 73. David Akers comments: All proofs of 1908 have the motto on the reverse. They are the most common of the Saint-Gaudens proofs and I estimate that 30-35 specimens exist. With one exception, all 1908 proofs are of the matte or sandblast variety whose color may vary from light yellow green to dark olive. The one exception mentioned is the unique satin finish specimen (similar to the 1909 and 1910 proofs) from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts that appeared in Stack's 1976 ANA sale.
1908 Double Eagle Motto, Matte Proof PR65
The coin was purchased in auction at Heritage’s 2019 ANA World's Fair of Money in Chicago. The coin was from The Joan Zieg Steinbrenner Collection. The collection was featured in CoinWeek, August 13th, 2019. She was the wife of NY Yankee’s owner George Steinbrenner. If you have time to read, this is the link:
The PCGS POP 8/8 coin is not a Condition Census Top 5, but Heritage describes as “Seldom Seen Finer”. The coin was describes as: The curvature of the dies for Saint-Gaudens new double eagle design made it impossible for the Mint to produce the brilliant finish proofs of earlier years, so an artistic sandblast finish was employed for the annual proof offerings, beginning in 1908. Sandblasted surfaces exhibit numerous minute facets that reflect the light at different angles, giving a coin an unusual sparkle. Unfortunately, contemporary collectors much preferred the old brilliant proofs.
Mr. Hansen purchased the coin for $75,000. PCGS Price Guide listed the coin at $100,000. The last PR65 to sell in auction was by Stacks Bowers for $76,375, August 2014. So, it appears the price paid was in line with expectation.
Provenance: The Joan Zieg Steinbrenner Collection
In comparison, The Eliasberg registry indicates that he had a better coin, estimate graded PR66. The specimen was purchased by Louis Eliasberg when he acquired the John Clapp collection in 1942. Originally, it was purchased by John Clapp from J.C. Mitchelson in 1909. At the Bowers & Ruddy Oct '82 Eliasberg sale, the coin was purchased by Don Kagin for $28,600.
Comments
It could be said that many of the recent great collectors also don’t give a crap about moderns. A great thing about Hansen is that he does care about moderns.
Extremely Rare
Extremely Rare is how Heritage described the Overton 102a, 1817/4 Half Dollar. Mr. Link brought this coin to our attention several months ago. He proposed a question if it should be included as a must (required) coins. The debate is now moot, because he has one. This were Mr. Links thoughts that he shared on this thread back in April 2019: Eliasberg was thought to be complete in 1950, but he really was complete in 1953 when he purchased the Al Overton 1817/4 (the discovery coin from Wallis by all accounts and finest known). The key capped bust half dollar for redbook set. Its a coin I've grown rather fond of in my middle years. Really should be considered for inclusion in the challenge set. I was very surprised and intrigued when it wasn't included in the set. It is beyond just date and mint mark. Was a regular issue coin that circulated with PCGS AU53 the highest graded extant and all other examples below XF. Eliasberg sought and obtained the finest known example for $1500 in 1953 as apparently he decided he needed it for his set. Bust half dollar nuts essentially all view the 1817/4 is as the important key for the set as the 1823/2 quarter is key for capped bust quarters. In my opinion one of the five most important pre-1839 silver coins. Of course there are no less than five 1817s in the redbook set including two overdates of course and two coins that are die states which don't really fit the Eliasberg challenge. The 1817/4 is considered one of the top 100 US coins as well by the top 100 treatise and PCGS. I think that makes the Eliasberg/Overton/Wallis 1817/4 just a little bit more special. What do you think Currin? It would mean of course Del Loy should strive for 22 more coins. How many others might consider this a good addition for the esteemed Mr. Hansen?
The finest example (Eliasberg/Overton/Wallis) is not presently available due to it being one of the highlights in Mr. Links World Class Bust Collection. Although, this is not the finest known example, nor does it equals the specimen that Eliasberg owned, Still to own one of these is a dream come true. Ask anyone in Bust Half Nut Club, this is one of the coins! Maybe, the coin. This is what PCGS Expert Ron Guth had to say: The 1817/4 Overdate Half Dollar is the most famous and valuable of all the Capped Bust Half Dollars. Only ten examples are known of this variety, several of which have been discovered within the past decade. Most of the known examples are of the Overton 102a variety, which means they show a somewhat vertical die crack on the obverse. This crack, and the eventual removal or destruction of the die, is believed to be the cause of this variety's exceptional rarity. The finest example is the PCGS AU53 from the Eliasberg Collection (and, coincidentally, the first example of the variety discovered by E.T. Wallis circa 1930). Wallis' asking price of $2,500 in 1934 pales in comparison to the $356,500 it realized in its last auction appearance in 2009! For anyone who thinks that all of the great coins have been found, it is important to realize that four of the eleven known 1817/4 Half Dollars have been discovered since 2005, and that the most recent find was in late 2013 or early 2014, when an example was purchased as a Punctuated Date 1817!
Mr. Guth mentions eleven know examples. The Heritage 2019 ANA World's Fair of Money US Coins Signature Auction in Chicago where the coin was made available, they listed a roster of elevens coins. So, that number appears consistent and correct. On Heritage’s Roster of 1817/4 Half Dollars, Hansen’s coin was list as #6, just outside the top five. From a member of the Bust Half Nut Club that indicated that #6 is the order for the Hansen coin that is pretty much agreed upon within club. There may be some differences with coins above Hansen’s for different rosters and lists. For example, Heritage listed the XF Detailed NGC as number 2. Some would disagree with ranking due to the environmental damage to the coin. I think the Hansen coin is in a good solid place at six, and is a PCGS Certified Condition Census POP 2/2 Specimen.
1817/4 Half Dollar, O-102a, VF20, Extremely Rare, The Johnson-Witham Example
I believe this was a good pickup for Hansen. Will he someday upgrade? Maybe, especially if Mr. Link’s Eliasberg coin was to come available. The Charlton Meyer/D. Brent Pogue VF35 PCGS specimen would be interesting if it became available just from the fact that it is a different die version O-102.
This coin is viewed the PCGS set makers as a Major Variety. That is the reason that I did not have it as a required coin as Mr. Link previously suggested. I think Mr. Link is correct; a good debate on where it belongs can be made. If you were following back when I made the requirement list, I did place the 1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof in the required list, and it is considered a Major Variety. I have learned much more about the 1817/4 Half Dollar than I knew then, much from Mr. Link, and if I had a do over, I might just include it, but as I said before, now it just a moot point.
I have tried to highlight a few things with this fascinating coin without get to long with the post. If you like to read more about this coin, the Heritage list was very interesting:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/1817-4-50c-o-102a-high-r7-vf20-pcgs/a/1298-3751.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116
This coin realized $186,000. PCGS Price Guide Value is $215,000. So I guess you could say Hansen got a bargain. Heritage described the coin as: This VF20 piece shows attractive light tan patination over both sides, taking on deeper hues in the recessed areas and around the peripheries, where reddish-brown and bluish-purple accents add to the eye appeal. The design elements are generally well centered on the planchet and exhibit strong definition for the designated grade level. Liberty's drapery and clasp are sharp, as are all letters in LIBERTY, and the eye and eyelid show clearly. The eagle's plumage is about two-thirds delineated, and all horizontal shield lines are separated. Portions of the right sides of both obverse and reverse reveal minor strike softness, a typical characteristic of the variety, but even these areas stand out on the present coin. The dentilation is complete except on the upper-right obverse. Remnants of the underdigit 4 are clearly visible beneath the 7, including serifs and crossbar. The small notch on the final star, believed to be the trademark of engraver John Reich, is evident, and the vertical die crack characteristic of the die state bisects Liberty portrait. Uniformly distributed light contact marks are no more numerous or severe than what would be expected of a coin that experienced moderate circulation. This problem-free specimen is sure to capture the attention not only of Bust half dollar specialists, but of advanced numismatists in general.
Provenance: Stewart Witham example, O-102a. Discovered by Ohio coin dealer Ed Johnson, who owned it in the 1940s; purchased by Stewart Witham in 1966; offered privately in 1983; ANA Signature (Heritage, 8/2010), lot 3147; Heritage 2019 ANA World's Fair of Money, $186,000 - D.L. Hansen Collection
1817/4 Capped Bust Half Dollar VF20
Certification #16351096, PCGS #6112
PCGS Price Guide Value: $215,000
PCGS Pedigree: Witham
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Great update and review Currin. You continue to amaze! Congratulations to Del on obtaining the 1817/4 key to the Capped Bust Lettered Edge Half Dollars and the final key added to the famed Eliasberg set.
.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That 1817/4 Half Dollar was one of my favorite coins in the sale this time. I think Hansen got it for a bargain.
Thomas Irwin Purchase
You just don’t know what Hansen will add or upgrade next. I guess you could call this another modern upgrade. Hansen and his team have received a little criticism recently due to the resources that is being placed in the modern coin collection. I don’t think the high end collectors and players can get a grip on what Hansen is doing with moderns. He told us late last fall that he was going to “cleanup” his modern collection, and indeed he has.
These coins are call “pennies” by some collectors. They are our lowest denomination coin after the half cent was abandoned about 150 years ago. The coppers are very popular with many collectors, but on the other hand, they are not by some. The copper coins don’t have the glamor of silver and gold, but they are interesting coins to collect. Hansen appears to like them. He added eight PCGS POP 1/0 coins to his collection.
Of these eight upgrades, six are from the Hall of Fame Thomas Irwin Collection. The Irwin set was retired 5/25/2017. I am not able to determine where the coins have resided the past two years. The collection at retirement had seven POP 1/0 coins. In a recent purchase, Hansen acquired all except the 1940-D MS68RD. I am not sure why that coin was not included in the purchase. It does not appear to be included in any sets at this time. With the six Irwin coins, he purchased another top pop from an August 25th Great Collection sale, 1953 MS67+ RD for $22,500. The eighth and final coin may the most interesting. The 1936 MS68RD upgrade was purchased at 2019 Heritage Long Beach sale. The coin sold for $1300 in a MS67+ RD PCGS holder with pedigree from the Charlie O’s collection. I would assume someone purchased the coin, had it upgraded to MS68RD by PCGS, and flipped to Hansen. I do not know what the new value of the coin would be. The total value of Hansen’s eight POP 1/0 is about $183,000.
In addition to the Top Pop coins, the upgrade included nine additional coins. All but one are tied for finest known, with the loner being the 1915 MS67+ RD POP 1/1 Specimen. All the coins are from The Thomas Irwin Collection, except the 1912 MS67+RD. I am not sure how the coin was acquired.
Hansen has moved his Lincoln Collection into what I would consider to be “World Class”. “For the Best of the Registry Winners of 2019”, Hansen Collection received the award for 13 out of 18 sets in the Major Set Category. It is important to note that not only are these sets the best currently, but most are also the All-Time Finest. This upgrade shows that Hansen is still working on “Cleaning Up” his modern sets. As can be easily seen in the list above, Hansen is not chasing the post 1964 coins yet. He is buying the finest, but generally speaking, he is not buying the Pop 1/0 specimens.
1924-D Lincoln Cent, RD MS66RD, PCGS POP 1/0, Ex: Thomas Irwin (HOF)
The 1924-D is the coin that I picked to highlight. Jaime Hernandez wrote this about the 1924-D: The 1924-D Lincoln cent is the most difficult Denver coin to find in the Lincoln cent series, from 1911 to 1929 in grades of MS65 Red or higher. According to the low certification number, this coin has withstood the test of time in the top spot. It appears the coin offered in an auction long ago. The firm Bowers & Merena auctioned the coin March, 1999. The coin realized a very reasonable sum of $8,338. The sale was name, Voigt & Lee, but I am not confident the pedigree would apply. The coin is presently valued at $50,000 by PCGS. This coin is now 1 of 20 PCGS TOP POP coins In the 1909-1958 “Wheat Ears” Collection. Will there be more; I think we can safely say yes. You may want to keep an eye out for the 1923-S PCGS MS65+ RD in The Legend’s Regency 34 Auction in a few weeks. They estimate the TOP POP coin at $50,000.00 - $55,000.00. The auctioneer wrote: We anticipate very strong bidding when this crosses the block! You better believe it.
I will conclude by stating that the Hansen Lincoln Collection is still missing the 1958 DDO (FS-101). Mr. Hansen will need this coin to seal the deal on Lincoln Cents. He was out bided in the most recent sale of the ESM Specimen. There are only three known, so the wait could be long for another chance. Let’s wait and see.
Provenance: Thomas Irwin
In comparing to Eliasberg’s specimen, we were told a couple days ago that like many other collectors in his day that “nobody gave a crap about gems”, that appear to be the truth. The Lincoln coins is an example of a series that Eliasberg may have actually used pocket change to fill holes for his common coins. Just kidding. His 1924-D Lincoln specimen is an estimated grade MS64BN with POP 96/587. Although, this coin was not sold in a lot as many of his modern day coins did, rather sold by Bowers & Merena May '96 price realized $412.50.
1924-D Lincoln Cent PCGS MS66RD
PCGS Coin #2554 / PCGS Serial #09928169 / POP 1/0
PCGS Value = $50,000
Sorry, but no picture available for this coin.
Posting update 9/4/2019
The owner of the Irwin collection passed away maybe 4 or 5 years ago. Angel Dees had been holding on to the coins for his heir(s) and getting some upgraded along the way (and were even able to update the already retired registry sets).
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
St. Gaudens Upgrade
I discussed a few months ago how difficult the St. Gaudens Double Eagle series for Hansen to improve. The series is very difficult to compete in registry condition census grades. Dr. and Mrs. Steven L. Duckor shaped the gold standard for the series more than 15 years ago. Since our last discussion, The Hansen Collection has not moved up in the registry. The collection is #4 All-Time, trailing two current sets and the retired Duckor set. I thought at the time that the St. Gaudens Double Eagle series have significant number of the PCGS Condition Census coins that reside outside of the registry. I still believe that to be true. Again, Hansen was able to find one at auction and upgrade his collection. PCGS describes the series as: The $20 St. Gaudens - so called because the designer's name was Augustus St. Gaudens - was first introduced in 1907 with Roman numerals at the date and a high relief design. Later in 1907, the design was modified with the normal date (called an Arabic date) and much lower relief. Late in 1908 the motto "In God We Trust" was added to the reverse. The $20 St. Gaudens is one of the most popular coins in the world due to its beautiful design. Collectors who would never have the inclination (or the bankroll!) to build a complete set will inevitably buy at least one $20 "Saint." Private ownership of gold was outlawed in the 1930s and many coins that had not been released were melted. This created many great rarities within the series. The key issues include the 1907 High Relief (MCMVII), 1908-S, 1920-S, 1921, 1924-D, 1924-S, 1925-D, 1925-S, 1926-D, 1927-D (a major rarity), 1927-S, 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D, and 1932. The 1933 date is also a great rarity and controversy rages even today as to whether this issue is legal to own.
Even though Hansen’s 53-piece mint strike set is #4 All-Time, I would not rate this set anywhere near the top for Hansen’s standard. This one upgrade is needed and is important, but one coin is not going to make any significant difference. He needs more that a hand full of Double Eagles to make a difference. This upgrade was just the start.
The opportunity for some high coins is coming available very soon. I did not see this listing, but I was told that Rollo Fox is selling his PCGS Registry #2 Set of St. Gaudens Double Eagles at the Winter Fun Show. The information that I received indicated the sale was seen on the back of the Sept issue of the Numismatist. The auction will be held on Heritage's Platinum night. This will be a great opportunity for Hansen, if he decides to pop on any of the coins. According to my quick assessment, of the 51coins listed in Fox Collection of St. Gaudens, there are 33 of them that could improve Hansen set. There are 10 coins that are finest or tied for finest certified, with five being PCGS Pop 1/0 specimens. Presently, The Hansen Collection does not list any PCGS POP 1/0 coins. Hansen has a gold bonanza that he can pick and choose a number of coins that he wants to bid on.
1922-S Double Eagle MS66+
There are only two 1922-S specimens graded PCGS MS66+ by PCGS. I am not sure the location of other MS66+ coin, it does not appear in the #1 set nor in the Fox Collection going to auction.
Only once a 1922-S coin of this quality has not been publicly auction. That was in the Stacks Bowers August 2019 ANA - Rarities Night. PCGS Expert David Akers have provided a nice description for the coin: At one time, the 1922-S was considered to be one of the premier rarities of the Saint-Gaudens series, more rare than such issues as the 1920-S, 1929, 1930-S, 1931 and 1932, among others. Then in the early 1950s a quantity was found in Europe, followed by several additional small hoards in the 1960s and early 1970s. As recently as 1983, a hoard of more than 200 pieces, many of them MS-63 to MS-65 quality, was discovered in Central America. As a result of these discoveries, the 1922-S is relatively common today (second only to the common 1923-D among mintmarked issues of the decade) and can be obtained without great difficulty in any Mint State grade up to and including MS-64. Gems remain rare, but enough are around that one can be located with only a moderate amount of searching. Of course, superb (MS-67) quality pieces, although a few do exist, are still all but impossible to locate. The 1922-S is nearly always very sharply struck. The surfaces are frosty and usually have well above average lustre for the series. The color, particularly on most top grade specimens, is characteristically excellent, usually a rich greenish gold with orange highlights or a deep yellow gold with a coppery tint. Many specimens have noticeable reddish or orange copper spots. Some specimens have a noticeable inner "rim" (die bulge) just inside the normal rim that runs through the stars and tops of the reverse letters and across the sun. Rounded, almost beveled, rims are seen on many examples of this issue.
Stack Bowers describes the specimen as Extraordinary Condition Rarity 1922-S Double Eagle- Tied for Finest Certified at PCGS. It is a nice coin with a respected pedigree. The coin is from the A & A Saints Collection and Bella Collection. What could be better? Stacks Bowers describes the coin’s appearance as: An extraordinary coin in a 1922-S double eagle, this frosty medium gold example also offers razor sharp to full striking detail to all major design elements. The silky smooth appearance of the surfaces is far superior to what is typically offered in a survivor of this challenging issue.
The sale of the coin realized $192,000. PCGS values the coin at $225,000 and the coin carries the CAC sticker. Another bargain? The Fox Collection has a MS65+. The coin would have been an upgrade, but I am not sure if Mr. Fox wanted the coin if he knew his set was going put his collection up for sale. The sale of the Fox Collection is going to be an interesting event to watch.
In comparison, The Eliasberg registry set describes his 1922-S Double Eagle Specimen as assumed grade MS63. Purchased at the Bowers & Ruddy Oct '82 Eliasberg sale by Jim Halperin and Steve Ivy for $1,320. Lot #1054.
1922-S Double Eagle MS66+, CAC (Gold Shield)
Certification #30433195, PCGS #9174
PCGS POP 2/0 / PCGS Coin Guide Value: $225,000
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
That is nice!
Currin - The Thomas Irwin Collection of Lincoln Cents was held by his widow for the last two years.
Recently the collection was consigned to Angel Dees who
Bulbous job of marketing the coins
at the ANA in Chicago .i even bought several coins from this collection
Currin forgot to mention the high quality Matte proofs that D. L. Hansen also purchased .
The reason Mr. Hansen did not purchase the 1940 from the Thomas Irwin Collection is because he previously bought the one from the Gerald Martin Collection .
The 1912 was from the Thomas Irwin Collection and was upgraded at the ANA show .
Lastly the proceeds from the
Thomas Irwin Collection will go to fund a research facility at the Overlook Hospital in New Jersey
In the name of the owner of the Thomas Irwin Collection .
Thanks for adding this great information. Congratulation on the 2019 PLATINUM LEVEL sets. Also, you have the King of Lincolns, finest certified 1958 DDO. I thought I read somewhere that you have two of them, but my memory is getting shaky.
Probably most important, is there a link to Overland Hospital, where we can contribute in the name of Thomas Irwin? It may be that some of us that would like to make a contribution.. Thanks again
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Like the addition of the 1817/4.
Only Full Band Certified by PCGS
It was recently said by a prominent collector that while some noteworthy collectors are building Numismatic historic sets, Del Hanson is buying Lincoln Cents and Peace Dollars. This is not all true, because he is buying Roosies too. I have to admit, I was not expecting this purchase. JB told us that they was not chasing modern POP 1/0 specimens. He thought the risk outweighed the benefit. Therefore as you can see in the chart below, Roosevelt Dimes - Major Sets that contain clads, The Hansen Collection is not as strong as the silver sets. He has nine PCGS POP 1/0 certified Roosevelt Silver Dimes, but there were no TOP POP 1/0 in clad before this purchase.
1974 Roosevelt Clad Dime PCGS MS67FB – Only Full Band!
This is not just any POP 1/0 specimen. Previously, the 1974 was the last Roosevelt Dime that could not be found with full band designation. Last fall the first one was certified. The first time that I saw it was a thread originated by Paul titled: 1974 PCGS Roosevelt Dime MS67FB...the last dime graded in FB. There is not much additional information known on the coin. Someone mentioned earlier in the Hansen watch thread that he paid 5 figures for the 1974 MS67FB dime. I have not been able to verify, but I have no reason to believe the statement to be anything but true. I was told by a Roosie specialist that the 1974 was the last date/MM needed to complete the FB Roosie set and it was that way for over a decade. Several big Roosie hunters have been trying for years to pop that coin hence the 5 figure price tag.
It is not uncommon for Mr. Hansen to do things that we don’t expect. He did not need this coin to complete a FB set, because his clad set is not even 90% FB. But the coin is unique and he has a coin that no one else has. That is what makes great collections, right? I think, contrary to his critics, Mr. Hansen knows how to assemble a great collection. Is he even half way there yet? I don’t know.
Being Mr. Hansen is the only person that can complete a full band Roosie set, it will be interesting to watch and see if that is something he wants to do. There are other tough FB coins. So, the task is not easy, but is there anything easy about building the Greatest Collection ever assembled?
1974 Roosevelt Clad Dime PCGS MS67FB
PCGS Coin #85145 / PCGS Serial #36622991 / POP 1/0
ONLY PCGS 1974 FULL BAND / PCGS Value = unknown
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Being Mr. Hansen is the only person that can complete a full band Roosie set
For now. For a long time - over 2 decades - there were no gem 1877 trade dollars graded at PCGS. Check out the current pops...
I just don’t get his focus on modern high end coins vs really incredible 18th and 19th century true rarities
Latin American Collection
More bang for the buck? You can raise the overall grade average of the set faster by upgrading coins with a minimum weight of 1 that actually should have a weight of 0.01
Only makes sense in the context of Completing All of IT
Agreed, 99.9% of "everything" holds no interest for me either, but dayum, have to respect the Big Project!!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Not so as there is another clad where only one has been graded in FB (1978) and the coin resides in the Halcyon set. So at the present time neither Halcyon nor Hansen can complete an FB Roosie set.
So this auction has ended and no one has mentioned it. Did Hansen purchase this coin? It ended up selling for $380,000 w/o the juice. Being that there are only 2 specimens, I think this is a good price and if Hansen bought it, I think he got a tremendous deal. Should've gone higher.
Later, Paul.
The coin brought $456,000 against a PCGS price guide price of $349,600. The latter represents the amount it realized when it sold previously, in 2011.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, I know this. The price guide in this case is worthless. The price guide follows the coin. If it sold for a million dollars, the PG would have to be adjusted.
I still feel this was a steal at either price.
Later, Paul.
Note to self:
Buy unopened 1975 proof sets. Hard to believe the mint had a run of only two coins before they discovered the error.
Registry nonsense chasing modern coins not even around when Eliasberg was collecting while passing on irreplaceable and long-standing rarities
Latin American Collection
If I was him, I would be fueled by this type of comment. He's showing some characteristics that make him stand out from some of these other well known collectors of the past.
1974 was 45 years ago. How long does material have to be "out there" before the concrete starts to set and people feel like they know if a top pop has staying power? (This is a sincere question)
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
I would say at least another 50 years to make sure the POP report doesnt get completely changed over time anymore, which it will for everything after 1900 still.
e.g. all the highest graded Mercury Dimes will change for sure over time, now there is one 1938-D in 68, in 10 years there will be 5 or 10 or 20 probably + 68+ and 69s.
Thats not going to happen for the MS 67 1794 Half Cent.
The problem is he is building his set now---he can't wait 50 years to confirm population. Part of his challenge is that he is building a set that covers everything and not able to just focus on a mature area like 18th cent. half cents.
I think the point is in paying $400k for a top pop moderish dime where the premium will likely evaporate over a relatively short period of time vs paying up for truly recognizable classic rarities
Latin American Collection
I understand the thinking and that may be correct. For the record, I don't collect anything that is considered modern. I did read an interesting article in a subscription based newsletter with a well respected numismatist who compared modern coins to the way modern art was viewed initially. People thought paying X dollars for an Andy Warhol was idiotic. Turned out to be a good investment. Another example is for years people said it was a waste to pay big money for the top graded Franklin Halves---coins that were modern and not so rare. Those top graded coins seem to continue to go up in value. I don't know what will happen, but my point is that there may be more potential in these coins then people are giving credit to.
This.
It just happened to me on a lower level, I bought a top Lincoln Cent for 6.000 USD 3 years ago that is now worth only 2.000 because a few more got graded.
It can also happen with $10 and $20 gold turning up from Europe.
exactly. But rarely only with 18th century coins.
Agree
To what degree is the growth of the populations for Mercury Dimes a factor of the maturity of the TPGs versus the age of the coin? Is the risk that there are rolls of gem roosevelts out there that haven't been considering for grading yet, or that there are top tier Roosevelts raw in collections still?
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
For those of you who say this is a bad purchase because it's a modern coin hear this:
I know for a fact if one of you get the urge to make another one I have a serious buyer right now. Also if you can't make this coin in a 7FB they'll happily take a 4FB, 5FB, or 6FB for this date. This coin just doesn't exist in FB's and IMHO the said coin in 7FB that Hansen bought isn't a true FB dime. Too many hits on both lower bands and they are flat.
If you were to make this coin, you will be paid handsomely for it.
Good Luck!
Later, Paul.
Interesting and no doubt true. Still, there must be millions of uncirculated 74 dimes out there, so it’s hard for me to consider any of them all that important in the scheme of things.
Doesn’t mean I’m not going to start looking closer at my 74 Mint Sets.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You will cower before my world domination. Unless you pay my ransom of one 1974 dime, I will destroy you. Bwahahahahaha
What? Oh...
Make that one billlllionnnn dollarsssss.
BTW, I like the value of the proof 75 dime at something north of 250K, and I’m (seriously) a big fan of Franklin Mint coins, so don’t think I’m a moderns hater. I just think that that the last micron of quality or strike is not that important, however old a coin may be.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I didn't think I could like him more but this just did it.
Not only does he not care about CAC, but he also likes moderns.
You should have a beer-mug-toast emoji
My Saint Set
Always fun spending someone else's money.
“@MFeld said:
» show previous quotes
The coin brought $456,000 against a PCGS price guide price of $349,600. The latter represents the amount it realized when it sold previously, in 2011.
Yes, I know this. The price guide in this case is worthless. The price guide follows the coin. If it sold for a million dollars, the PG would have to be adjusted.
I still feel this was a steal at either price.”
Stooge (Paul): As usual, your instincts and assessments, especially as they relate to Roosevelt dimes, are “dead on”. I should have a few things to say about the 1975 No S Dime (“Hollywood” as the Heritage auctioneer put it) later this week and I will share my comments here and over on the Registry Forum thread dedicated to Roosevelt Dimes.
Wondercoin
yes plus upgrades.
But I assume that the majority of all roosevelts is not graded incl. proof sets and thats different for high grade 18th century coins.
Finest known at PCGS means nothing if only all 20% of all high grade coins are graded.
Pop reports keep on changing, even for older coins. There are upgrades and downgrades that make sure things don't stagnate.
Coins where grades matter less are when there are just a handful.
“But I assume that the majority of all roosevelts is not graded incl. proof sets and thats different for high grade 18th century coins.”
But, the vast majority of Roosie collectors who have a budget of, say, $25-$100 a coin really don’t have the luxury to pay attention to that fact.
Astute Roosie collectors (as young as teenagers) have paid $5-$10 a coin plus a grading fee and ended up grading, and selling an “end product” for $5,000 -$10,000 (or keeping the coin for their collection). These teenagers and sharp collectors on a budget (maybe 99% of them) can not consider “high grade 18th century coins” - right?
The opportunities for a seasoned Roosie collector with $50 -$100 in his pocket at a coin show are nearly endless. For $1 or $2 plus a $16 grading fee one can potentially make a $10,000 coin. I know someone who recently turned $9 plus a grading fee into nearly $40,000.00 (different modern series than Roosies, but same idea). How much does a collector need to bring to a typical coin show to score a good deal on a “high grade 18th century coin”?
Wondercoin
How many of you (us) loupe every coin in our collection when we look at them?
Naked eye, 12 inch distance and who cares?
Some things are too much.
There's no need for us to argue over a coin's value here that we didn't even buy....
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Hah! Well Said! ☺
Does this mean that you're getting ready to tell us the rest of the story? (:>)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
St. Gaudens Matte Proof
We discussed a few weeks ago a St. Gaudens Mint State update to the Collection. I talked about how difficult the St. Gaudens Double Eagle series is in high grade mint state. I feel proof specimens may be harder. This is how PCGS describes the proof set: Want to get famous? Put together a set of these amazing, gorgeous, incredible, remarkable, indescribable, sensational coins! The ultimate in coin design, issued in Matte and Roman Finish Proof. The highest mintage coin in the set is only 167 pieces (!) and at present only one set can be assembled in PR65 or better condition. Don't worry, though, as a PR64 set or a mixture of PR64 and PR65/better coins would also be nothing short of spectacular.
I am somewhere dumbfounded this is not a more popular set. From viewing the registry, except Hansen, there is not anyone attempting to create a set in the registry. That is not to say there are not sets outside the registry. Mr. Hansen is presently at 62.5% completed, and the only current collector working on this series. According to the registry, the finest set is in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection. The national set is followed by five other retired completed sets: Eliasberg, Bloomfield, Garrett, Newcomer, and Trompeter. Eliasberg has the most outstanding private own set with the weighed GPA of 65.83.
This new coin is the first in the series. 1908 $20 Motto, Matte (Proof) is by no means a common coin. According to CoinFacts, the mintage was 101 with a survival estimate of 73. David Akers comments: All proofs of 1908 have the motto on the reverse. They are the most common of the Saint-Gaudens proofs and I estimate that 30-35 specimens exist. With one exception, all 1908 proofs are of the matte or sandblast variety whose color may vary from light yellow green to dark olive. The one exception mentioned is the unique satin finish specimen (similar to the 1909 and 1910 proofs) from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts that appeared in Stack's 1976 ANA sale.
1908 Double Eagle Motto, Matte Proof PR65
The coin was purchased in auction at Heritage’s 2019 ANA World's Fair of Money in Chicago. The coin was from The Joan Zieg Steinbrenner Collection. The collection was featured in CoinWeek, August 13th, 2019. She was the wife of NY Yankee’s owner George Steinbrenner. If you have time to read, this is the link:
https://coinweek.com/auctions-news/heritage-platinum-night-joan-zieg-steinbrenner-collection-of-u-s-gold-coins/
The PCGS POP 8/8 coin is not a Condition Census Top 5, but Heritage describes as “Seldom Seen Finer”. The coin was describes as: The curvature of the dies for Saint-Gaudens new double eagle design made it impossible for the Mint to produce the brilliant finish proofs of earlier years, so an artistic sandblast finish was employed for the annual proof offerings, beginning in 1908. Sandblasted surfaces exhibit numerous minute facets that reflect the light at different angles, giving a coin an unusual sparkle. Unfortunately, contemporary collectors much preferred the old brilliant proofs.
Mr. Hansen purchased the coin for $75,000. PCGS Price Guide listed the coin at $100,000. The last PR65 to sell in auction was by Stacks Bowers for $76,375, August 2014. So, it appears the price paid was in line with expectation.
Provenance: The Joan Zieg Steinbrenner Collection
In comparison, The Eliasberg registry indicates that he had a better coin, estimate graded PR66. The specimen was purchased by Louis Eliasberg when he acquired the John Clapp collection in 1942. Originally, it was purchased by John Clapp from J.C. Mitchelson in 1909. At the Bowers & Ruddy Oct '82 Eliasberg sale, the coin was purchased by Don Kagin for $28,600.
1908 Double Eagle Motto, Matte Proof PR65
Certification #25217804, PCGS #9205
PCGS POP 8/8 / PCGS Coin Guide Value: $100,000
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004