"No thanks. Not interested in paying a huge premium for a facsimile signature..."
"LOL ..another way to take sucker's... er collector's money .. not personally signed"
I personally have no interest in purchasing a set of these Cleveland coins, but if I did I had trouble seeing in the offering where these were listed as "facsimile signatures" and not "personally signed". Where is it mentioned these are not real autographs?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The Buy It Now price is $ 459.00 Bucks but the bidding have been selling for around
$300.00 Bucks Is that still to high since you can get one from the mint at $29.95 (not signed). Since when does a autograph signature command a 900% Mark Up? Isn't this Illegal and what does this do to the reputation of the signer? Is Mr. Cleveland not putting his good name up for scrutiny in RIPPING OFF THE PEOPLE? Is this considered a good deal or a SCAM?
The Buy It Now price is $ 459.00 Bucks but the bidding have been selling for around$300.00 Bucks Is that still to high since you can get one from the mint at $29.95 (not signed). >
The price IS high but there is no way you can get a PCGS SP70 set (not signed) from the Mint for $29...apples to apples..not just the autograph. The grading has something to do with it
There are always 2 ways to look at price:
1. Is it worth it to YOU?
2. Is it worth it in the market?
With #1, there is simply no objective standard. You spend your money where it makes you happy. When you do that, however, you have to do it knowing that you may never recoup even a fraction of the money you spent. If you like the autographed sets, go for it.
The market, is a more complicated issue. For example, I have NO personal interest in 69 or 70 graded modern coins. For the EU set, you can buy a set for $29.95 from the mint that is ALL 69s and 70s, just not in a coffin. BUT BUT BUT, there is a market for 69 and 70 sets and there is, therefore, a price for those sets. If I want to make money, I need to set aside my private feelings and focus on what Mr. Market's feelings may be.
For common, liquid coins that trade regularly (16-D dimes, for example), there is an obvious market price that is easy to ascertain. For less liquid material, like these 100 autographed sets, establishing market worth is trickier, especially since they are essentially monopolistic in origin. The price for them will be clearer several years from now when they are trading on the secondary market. But, even then, unless the number of would be collectors is in the thousands, they will trade so infrequently with little bidding action to ever establish a market price.
Bottom line, in my ever humble opinion: if you like autographed coin sets, $459 isn't outrageous for a limited edition set...but it is NOT an investment and may never be worth that much again in your lifetime.
"The Buy It Now price is $ 459.00 Bucks but the bidding have been selling for around $300.00 Bucks Is that still to high since you can get one from the mint at $29.95 (not signed). Since when does a autograph signature command a 900% Mark Up? Isn't this Illegal and what does this do to the reputation of the signer? Is Mr. Cleveland not putting his good name up for scrutiny in RIPPING OFF THE PEOPLE? Is this considered a good deal or a SCAM?"
Gluggo: What about the US Mint's nearly identical "900%" markup of $29.95 for $2.91 in pocket change? Just as relevant as a $300 price tag for signed "70" grade coins as compared to $30 worth of raw coins if you think about it?
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Good points by both jmlanzaf and wondercoin! I never thought about the Mints mark up but you do have to admit they have some nice packaging especially the 225th Anniversary American Liberty Silver Medal. That was some special packaging! Just for being open I did end up bidding and buying a total of 8 sets of the 70's two of which were the autographed. Call me a sucker but only time will tell.
I did get taken at first when I did the Buy It Now buying but ended up bidding on 6 or the 8 sets. That's how I know how low some of them went. I think the autographed ones all that I own usually end up in my private collection to be handed down Generation to Generation.
@wondercoin said:
"No thanks. Not interested in paying a huge premium for a facsimile signature..."
"LOL ..another way to take sucker's... er collector's money .. not personally signed"
I personally have no interest in purchasing a set of these Cleveland coins, but if I did I had trouble seeing in the offering where these were listed as "facsimile signatures" and not "personally signed". Where is it mentioned these are not real autographs?
Wondercoin
hello Wondercoin ....take a look at the coins close up .. signatures are Identical on each coin ..
BUY and Hold ????
For example ...take a look at the Gold Kennedy PCGS 70 1st day labels from Chicago ANA Show .. that coin traded quite a few in the $4,000 area down to middle $3 thousand area.. Now the same label coin PCGS 70 DCam are in the $1,500 area
Bestday. Perhaps he is great at signing consistent autographs? I would not assume facsimile autographs. Probably a fair question to ask the seller for anyone interested in the sets.
Glucco - Thank you for having an open mind to it all. Your last two posts are quite polar opposites ... starting with possibly "illegal" behavior and "rip off" behavior to you acknowledging that you have already bought 8 sets for yourself including 2 signed sets. LOL
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Always fun to see who argues which points depending on if they have skin in the game or not. I can envision a lot of cackling and capering around based on what has happened with this set - at least from those that hate moderns. I would have thought the results on this one were great - it's what everyone has always said they wanted. Flippers got the shaft, plenty of product for the collectors who just want a set, likely will be sold out in a bit unless something weird happens and the mint decides to take returns after their posted window.
One thing I would bet on is that this won't be the last EU set. The mint invested in the technology - no chance they're going to stop using it.
They LOSE a lot of money on annual sets...makes you wonder why they bother. For everyone that thinks they are ripping off the collectors, turns out the collectors are bankrupting them! LOL
@thevolcanogod said:
Always fun to see who argues which points depending on if they have skin in the game or not. I can envision a lot of cackling and capering around based on what has happened with this set - at least from those that hate moderns. I would have thought the results on this one were great - it's what everyone has always said they wanted. Flippers got the shaft, plenty of product for the collectors who just want a set, likely will be sold out in a bit unless something weird happens and the mint decides to take returns after their posted window.
One thing I would bet on is that this won't be the last EU set. The mint invested in the technology - no chance they're going to stop using it.
They'll definitely issue more EU coins. Whether they make annual sets or just use it on the occasional commemorative remains to be seen.
To me the latest greatest relevant issue isn't so much about the future value of this EU Set. It's more about the future of the entire Collecting obsession of everything and specifically the Coin Collecting obsession for those of us that frequent these boards.
The State Quarters did a lot to spark the fire back before the economic crash in 2008. Those who were pulled in by the Quarters were likely burned bad when they tried to cash out ( once bitten twice shy). Also if they had advanced beyond State Quarters into Colorfully Corroded Widgets, they might have been traumatized even further as they tried to cash out to save their rock solid Housing Investment.
After the crash where are we? Some misguided people still seem to think there's some sort of flippers market out there . From what I can see there is a minuscule flippers market left but only for the really fast actors. Most of us are just being used to enable a sellout so the quick flips can do their thing.
@FullStrike said:
To me the latest greatest relevant issue isn't so much about the future value of this EU Set. It's more about the future of the entire Collecting obsession of everything and specifically the Coin Collecting obsession for those of us that frequent these boards.
The State Quarters did a lot to spark the fire back before the economic crash in 2008. Those who were pulled in by the Quarters were likely burned bad when they tried to cash out ( once bitten twice shy). Also if they had advanced beyond State Quarters into Colorfully Corroded Widgets, they might have been traumatized even further as they tried to cash out to save their rock solid Housing Investment.
After the crash where are we? Some misguided people still seem to think there's some sort of flippers market out there . From what I can see there is a minuscule flippers market left but only for the really fast actors. Most of us are just being used to enable a sellout so the quick flips can do their thing.
There is a lot of truth to that. The problem with "marketing" is that it does create disappointment.
As for the "flippers", there is a flipper market maybe once per year on a limited edition with poor distribution. But even most of those end up, in the long run, being "just another Mint product".
Its the Government they are suppose to Loose Money! My tax's at work.
I even heard somewhere there is a large room where the Fed's store all the Extra coinage cause they have no place to put it! Did not really catch the whole story but I am sure its a black hole sucking everything up!
I don't know about the moron part but I felt like one after I lost about 15K on a stock trade all cause I did not want to sell event though I kept hoping the company would stop with their Reverse Splits but No they kept on and the market kept shorting them. I guess its a good thing I finally did sell or I would of lost a lot more so I guess I am not a total moron only 15 K's worth! Do I regret it No after all I was hoping to make a killing but instead I got taken. Its all a gamble life is a gamble. I am just happy I have my health even though its starting to slip! Can't have any more sugar all sugar free! Yuk.
@MsMorrisine said:
first sets are too expensive, now they are morons for losing money
can they double the price?
I suppose set sales are declining in part due to price.
obviously they make up for it in other ways. Although, they have to make up for it in other ways.
That's calling the mint morons for selling at a loss. A huge loss in FY2016.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't
DRYS? That stock is trouble. I'm glad the SEC is investigating. I don't see how that company isn't bankrupt and how they can place shares in a price free fall.
@MsMorrisine said:
first sets are too expensive, now they are morons for losing money
can they double the price?
I suppose set sales are declining in part due to price.
obviously they make up for it in other ways. Although, they have to make up for it in other ways.
They would be better served by discontinuing the sets than lose money. Sets may be too expensive, that doesn't mean they aren't morons.
I could make gold plated turds and sell them at $50 each. Would I sell any? Probably not. So I'm a moron if I keep making them AND they are too expensive.
The Mint owes NOTHING to collectors with the sets. If they can't sell them and break even or make money, they should discontinue them...like any other business would.
Remember, the losses accrue to the Mint, but the bribes go to the congress-critters. It doesn't matter how much the Mint loses as long as the Zinc, Nickel, etc. miners stay in business, plus the union pressures. How many jobs would be lost if the cent and nickel went away?
@MsMorrisine said:
annual sets are required by law
And the laws can't be changed...??? And the law requires MULTIPLE annual coin sets? There's mint, there's proof, there's proof silver, there's enhanced, there's with and without a silver eagle...
Dang MsMorrisine you are AMAZING! Your guess nailed it I am very impressed! DRYS is those dang Greek's!!!!!
@MsMorrisine said:
That's calling the mint morons for selling at a loss. A huge loss in FY2016.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't
DRYS? That stock is trouble. I'm glad the SEC is investigating. I don't see how that company isn't bankrupt and how they can place shares in a price free fall.
@MsMorrisine said:
first sets are too expensive, now they are morons for losing money
can they double the price?
I suppose set sales are declining in part due to price.
obviously they make up for it in other ways. Although, they have to make up for it in other ways.
Doesn't surprise me. If you look, they have the highest overhead between all the other products, probably because of the sheer number of coins (14 proof/28 uncirc during the presibuck days) that have to be assembled.
I wouldn't be surprised if the admin costs come way down for FY2017 due to the downsize of the sets without the brass bucks.
(1) Except as provided in this chapter, the Secretary of the Treasury shall deposit in the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts amounts the Secretary receives from the operations of the United States Mint. Expenditures made from appropriated funds which are subsequently determined to be properly chargeable to the Numismatic Public Enterprise Fund established by section 5134 shall be reimbursed by such Fund to the appropriation. The Secretary shall annually sell to the public, directly and by mail, sets of uncirculated and proof coins minted under paragraphs (1) through (6) of section 5112(a) of this title, and shall solicit such sales through the use of the customer list of the United States Mint. Except with respect to amounts deposited in the Numismatic Public Enterprise Fund in accordance with section 5134, the Secretary may not use amounts the Secretary receives from profits on minting coins or from charges on gold or silver bullion under section 5122 to pay officers and employees.
(2)
(A) In addition to the coins described in paragraph (1), the Secretary shall sell annually to the public directly and by mail, sets of proof coins minted under paragraphs (1) through (6) of section 5112(a).
(B) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, for purposes of this paragraph—
(i) the coins described in paragraphs (2) through (4) of section 5112(a) shall be made of an alloy of not less than 90 percent silver; and
(ii) all coins minted under this paragraph shall have a mint mark indicating the place of manufacture.
(C) All coins minted under this paragraph shall be considered to be—
(i) numismatic items for purposes of paragraph (1) and section 5111(a)(3); and
(ii) legal tender, as provided in section 5103.
(D) The Secretary shall obtain silver for coins minted under this paragraph by purchase from stockpiles established under the Strategic and Critical Materials Stock Piling Act (50 U.S.C. 98 et seq.). At such time as the silver stockpile is depleted, the Secretary shall obtain silver for such coins by purchase of silver mined from natural deposits in the United States or in a territory or possession of the United States not more than 1 year following the month in which the ore from which it is derived was mined. The Secretary shall pay not more than the average world price for such silver. The Secretary may issue such regulations as may be necessary to carry out this subparagraph.
Comments
LOL ..another way to take sucker's... er collector's money .. not personally signed
"No thanks. Not interested in paying a huge premium for a facsimile signature..."
"LOL ..another way to take sucker's... er collector's money .. not personally signed"
I personally have no interest in purchasing a set of these Cleveland coins, but if I did I had trouble seeing in the offering where these were listed as "facsimile signatures" and not "personally signed". Where is it mentioned these are not real autographs?
Wondercoin
The Buy It Now price is $ 459.00 Bucks but the bidding have been selling for around
$300.00 Bucks Is that still to high since you can get one from the mint at $29.95 (not signed). Since when does a autograph signature command a 900% Mark Up? Isn't this Illegal and what does this do to the reputation of the signer? Is Mr. Cleveland not putting his good name up for scrutiny in RIPPING OFF THE PEOPLE? Is this considered a good deal or a SCAM?
The price IS high but there is no way you can get a PCGS SP70 set (not signed) from the Mint for $29...apples to apples..not just the autograph. The grading has something to do with it
There are always 2 ways to look at price:
1. Is it worth it to YOU?
2. Is it worth it in the market?
With #1, there is simply no objective standard. You spend your money where it makes you happy. When you do that, however, you have to do it knowing that you may never recoup even a fraction of the money you spent. If you like the autographed sets, go for it.
The market, is a more complicated issue. For example, I have NO personal interest in 69 or 70 graded modern coins. For the EU set, you can buy a set for $29.95 from the mint that is ALL 69s and 70s, just not in a coffin. BUT BUT BUT, there is a market for 69 and 70 sets and there is, therefore, a price for those sets. If I want to make money, I need to set aside my private feelings and focus on what Mr. Market's feelings may be.
For common, liquid coins that trade regularly (16-D dimes, for example), there is an obvious market price that is easy to ascertain. For less liquid material, like these 100 autographed sets, establishing market worth is trickier, especially since they are essentially monopolistic in origin. The price for them will be clearer several years from now when they are trading on the secondary market. But, even then, unless the number of would be collectors is in the thousands, they will trade so infrequently with little bidding action to ever establish a market price.
Bottom line, in my ever humble opinion: if you like autographed coin sets, $459 isn't outrageous for a limited edition set...but it is NOT an investment and may never be worth that much again in your lifetime.
"The Buy It Now price is $ 459.00 Bucks but the bidding have been selling for around $300.00 Bucks Is that still to high since you can get one from the mint at $29.95 (not signed). Since when does a autograph signature command a 900% Mark Up? Isn't this Illegal and what does this do to the reputation of the signer? Is Mr. Cleveland not putting his good name up for scrutiny in RIPPING OFF THE PEOPLE? Is this considered a good deal or a SCAM?"
Gluggo: What about the US Mint's nearly identical "900%" markup of $29.95 for $2.91 in pocket change? Just as relevant as a $300 price tag for signed "70" grade coins as compared to $30 worth of raw coins if you think about it?
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
I can't comment on this particular set
unless it has changed, the annual mint sets are the lowest margin numismatic products. check the annual report.
and compare sigs on different inserts to see if they are facsimiles.
Good points by both jmlanzaf and wondercoin! I never thought about the Mints mark up but you do have to admit they have some nice packaging especially the 225th Anniversary American Liberty Silver Medal. That was some special packaging! Just for being open I did end up bidding and buying a total of 8 sets of the 70's two of which were the autographed. Call me a sucker but only time will tell.
I did get taken at first when I did the Buy It Now buying but ended up bidding on 6 or the 8 sets. That's how I know how low some of them went. I think the autographed ones all that I own usually end up in my private collection to be handed down Generation to Generation.
Ohhh I forgot BigA good point too!
hello Wondercoin ....take a look at the coins close up .. signatures are Identical on each coin ..
BUY and Hold ????
For example ...take a look at the Gold Kennedy PCGS 70 1st day labels from Chicago ANA Show .. that coin traded quite a few in the $4,000 area down to middle $3 thousand area.. Now the same label coin PCGS 70 DCam are in the $1,500 area
Bestday. Perhaps he is great at signing consistent autographs? I would not assume facsimile autographs. Probably a fair question to ask the seller for anyone interested in the sets.
Glucco - Thank you for having an open mind to it all. Your last two posts are quite polar opposites ... starting with possibly "illegal" behavior and "rip off" behavior to you acknowledging that you have already bought 8 sets for yourself including 2 signed sets. LOL
Wondercoin
Yes wondercoin I was off my meds under control now! At least for 18 hours.
sanity check me please: (
)
https://www.usmint.gov/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2016AnnualReport.pdf
document page 16
pdf page 18
Always fun to see who argues which points depending on if they have skin in the game or not. I can envision a lot of cackling and capering around based on what has happened with this set - at least from those that hate moderns. I would have thought the results on this one were great - it's what everyone has always said they wanted. Flippers got the shaft, plenty of product for the collectors who just want a set, likely will be sold out in a bit unless something weird happens and the mint decides to take returns after their posted window.
One thing I would bet on is that this won't be the last EU set. The mint invested in the technology - no chance they're going to stop using it.
They LOSE a lot of money on annual sets...makes you wonder why they bother. For everyone that thinks they are ripping off the collectors, turns out the collectors are bankrupting them! LOL
They'll definitely issue more EU coins. Whether they make annual sets or just use it on the occasional commemorative remains to be seen.
To me the latest greatest relevant issue isn't so much about the future value of this EU Set. It's more about the future of the entire Collecting obsession of everything and specifically the Coin Collecting obsession for those of us that frequent these boards.
The State Quarters did a lot to spark the fire back before the economic crash in 2008. Those who were pulled in by the Quarters were likely burned bad when they tried to cash out ( once bitten twice shy). Also if they had advanced beyond State Quarters into Colorfully Corroded Widgets, they might have been traumatized even further as they tried to cash out to save their rock solid Housing Investment.
After the crash where are we? Some misguided people still seem to think there's some sort of flippers market out there . From what I can see there is a minuscule flippers market left but only for the really fast actors. Most of us are just being used to enable a sellout so the quick flips can do their thing.
All I can say is there big on their PIE Charts in that 2016 Annual Report!
There is a lot of truth to that. The problem with "marketing" is that it does create disappointment.
As for the "flippers", there is a flipper market maybe once per year on a limited edition with poor distribution. But even most of those end up, in the long run, being "just another Mint product".
Large in number but losing money...
Its the Government they are suppose to Loose Money! My tax's at work.
I even heard somewhere there is a large room where the Fed's store all the Extra coinage cause they have no place to put it! Did not really catch the whole story but I am sure its a black hole sucking everything up!
first sets are too expensive, now they are morons for losing money
can they double the price?
I suppose set sales are declining in part due to price.
obviously they make up for it in other ways. Although, they have to make up for it in other ways.
I don't know about the moron part but I felt like one after I lost about 15K on a stock trade all cause I did not want to sell event though I kept hoping the company would stop with their Reverse Splits but No they kept on and the market kept shorting them. I guess its a good thing I finally did sell or I would of lost a lot more so I guess I am not a total moron only 15 K's worth! Do I regret it No after all I was hoping to make a killing but instead I got taken. Its all a gamble life is a gamble. I am just happy I have my health even though its starting to slip! Can't have any more sugar all sugar free! Yuk.
That's calling the mint morons for selling at a loss. A huge loss in FY2016.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't
DRYS? That stock is trouble. I'm glad the SEC is investigating. I don't see how that company isn't bankrupt and how they can place shares in a price free fall.
I'm surprised they are taking credit for "developing" the technology. The Canadian mint did it more than a decade ago.
They would be better served by discontinuing the sets than lose money. Sets may be too expensive, that doesn't mean they aren't morons.
I could make gold plated turds and sell them at $50 each. Would I sell any? Probably not. So I'm a moron if I keep making them AND they are too expensive.
The Mint owes NOTHING to collectors with the sets. If they can't sell them and break even or make money, they should discontinue them...like any other business would.
Remember, the losses accrue to the Mint, but the bribes go to the congress-critters. It doesn't matter how much the Mint loses as long as the Zinc, Nickel, etc. miners stay in business, plus the union pressures. How many jobs would be lost if the cent and nickel went away?
annual sets are required by law
And the laws can't be changed...??? And the law requires MULTIPLE annual coin sets? There's mint, there's proof, there's proof silver, there's enhanced, there's with and without a silver eagle...
How many are left in stock
wow, sales really dropped off, only selling 440 sets per day now. they were selling 700 per day just a few weeks ago
at this pace we are looking at 17 days before sellout, which would be September 22nd. that's if they don't raise the number again
I'm thinking 45 days
DOA now.
Another Mint dud.. need an error coin in set ,, to lite up sales... otherwise set, dead meat..
Although I will order a set this week for the fun .. All those holding big numbers of sets ,yet to sell .. ouch
Dang MsMorrisine you are AMAZING! Your guess nailed it I am very impressed! DRYS is those dang Greek's!!!!!
Well, it's not moving backwards...
7598 + 189,816 = 197,414
Hmmmm.....
Not doubting you, but I can't find a reference that says that.
The law states that Treasury may mint uncirculated and proof coins, but not that they have to.
If you've got a cite for the annual sets, I'd appreciate it so I can bookmark it...
Doesn't surprise me. If you look, they have the highest overhead between all the other products, probably because of the sheer number of coins (14 proof/28 uncirc during the presibuck days) that have to be assembled.
I wouldn't be surprised if the admin costs come way down for FY2017 due to the downsize of the sets without the brass bucks.
31 U.S. Code § 5132 - Administrative
(a)
(1) Except as provided in this chapter, the Secretary of the Treasury shall deposit in the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts amounts the Secretary receives from the operations of the United States Mint. Expenditures made from appropriated funds which are subsequently determined to be properly chargeable to the Numismatic Public Enterprise Fund established by section 5134 shall be reimbursed by such Fund to the appropriation. The Secretary shall annually sell to the public, directly and by mail, sets of uncirculated and proof coins minted under paragraphs (1) through (6) of section 5112(a) of this title, and shall solicit such sales through the use of the customer list of the United States Mint. Except with respect to amounts deposited in the Numismatic Public Enterprise Fund in accordance with section 5134, the Secretary may not use amounts the Secretary receives from profits on minting coins or from charges on gold or silver bullion under section 5122 to pay officers and employees.
(2)
(B) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, for purposes of this paragraph—
(i) the coins described in paragraphs (2) through (4) of section 5112(a) shall be made of an alloy of not less than 90 percent silver; and
(ii) all coins minted under this paragraph shall have a mint mark indicating the place of manufacture.
(C) All coins minted under this paragraph shall be considered to be—
(i) numismatic items for purposes of paragraph (1) and section 5111(a)(3); and
(ii) legal tender, as provided in section 5103.
(D) The Secretary shall obtain silver for coins minted under this paragraph by purchase from stockpiles established under the Strategic and Critical Materials Stock Piling Act (50 U.S.C. 98 et seq.). At such time as the silver stockpile is depleted, the Secretary shall obtain silver for such coins by purchase of silver mined from natural deposits in the United States or in a territory or possession of the United States not more than 1 year following the month in which the ore from which it is derived was mined. The Secretary shall pay not more than the average world price for such silver. The Secretary may issue such regulations as may be necessary to carry out this subparagraph.
All we need is an error to be found. No S EU Set? Sure, why not?
Got it. Thanks.
5500 vs 2500
I'm surprised the regular unc set is beating this one.
I'm thinking it is not on the average person's radar
the existence of the Effigy mounds coin design already must be an error, let alone giving it special enhanced minting...
Disagree