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  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why are any facts important?

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, You bumped the thread, was there a point? I've got some time today and would like to learn something if possible.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    No accidents, no violations. All vehicles a year older, and the insurance on all of them went UP. Hmmmm.

    YOU are a year older ;)

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • USASoccerUSASoccer Posts: 445 ✭✭✭

    FEDEX, UPS, and USPS all just went up...

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2017 3:27PM

    @derryb said:
    Note that while pay has increased 42% since 2000, real median income (when adjusted for inflation) has been stagnate. Inflation destroyed pay increases.

    Wrong again. Median income shows a no improvement due to the flood of baby boomers retiring and little old ladies living by themselves. There are more single households than ever before which skew the number, a trend that will continue for 2 decades as boomers age and die.

    In 10 years this number will still not show much increase yet the economy will be doing quite well.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:

    @jmski52 said:
    No accidents, no violations. All vehicles a year older, and the insurance on all of them went UP. Hmmmm.

    YOU are a year older ;)

    Yes, he is a year older, as are many of his generation. This coupled with the talented texting drivers has resulted in increase in accidents. More accidents means higher insurance costs. Another trend that will continue.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2017 4:33PM

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:
    Note that while pay has increased 42% since 2000, real median income (when adjusted for inflation) has been stagnate. Inflation destroyed pay increases.

    Wrong again. Median income shows a no improvement due to the flood of baby boomers retiring and little old ladies living by themselves. There are more single households than ever before which skew the number, a trend that will continue for 2 decades as boomers age and die.

    In 10 years this number will still not show much increase yet the economy will be doing quite well.

    Buy a dictionary. Then look up "median." The chart shows the difference between income before inflation and income after inflation. Both cases share the same demographics. Only difference is the adjustment for inflation. Accept the facts, or don't. Not agreeing with them does not make them less factual.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, during this past summer I did have a car accident. I was waiting to turn left after the oncoming traffic went by, and I got rear-ended by an 86 year old. Now I have a hobby car.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2017 6:34AM

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:
    Note that while pay has increased 42% since 2000, real median income (when adjusted for inflation) has been stagnate. Inflation destroyed pay increases.

    Wrong again. Median income shows a no improvement due to the flood of baby boomers retiring and little old ladies living by themselves. There are more single households than ever before which skew the number, a trend that will continue for 2 decades as boomers age and die.

    In 10 years this number will still not show much increase yet the economy will be doing quite well.

    Buy a dictionary. Then look up "median." The chart shows the difference between income before inflation and income after inflation. Both cases share the same demographics. Only difference is the adjustment for inflation. Accept the facts, or don't. Not agreeing with them does not make them less factual.

    Yes, use that dictionary. Median is the middle number. When you have more and more numbers at the lower end, as we do when boomers retire and hence see a drop in income, the median will also be lowered. It is not the same demographic....the household in 2000 is 17 years older in 2017. The middle aged worker is now a retiree. Yes, it's a fact that median household income has not risen, but understanding why is much more important.

    Boomers that may have been making 70k per year while working are now making 50k per year in retirement. This drop in income does not mean the economy stinks. And when you have 10,000 boomers per day retiring, hence skewing income numbers lower, you will get results such as you have presented, which will be used to control the largely uneducated masses.

    This is like the "fact" that so many use when they say 93 million Americans don't have jobs. That is true, but is completely meaningless when you understand why. And it's a "fact" that is used to illicit anger and other emotions to gain control and trust.

    The very "them" that you hold in such contempt, hold you to be their voice.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Well, during this past summer I did have a car accident. I was waiting to turn left after the oncoming traffic went by, and I got rear-ended by an 86 year old. Now I have a hobby car.

    Unfortunately this will become more common in the future as we will have a very large demographic of older drivers with slower reaction times and and even larger demographic of younger drivers who think they are invincible.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2017 7:00AM

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:
    Note that while pay has increased 42% since 2000, real median income (when adjusted for inflation) has been stagnate. Inflation destroyed pay increases.

    Wrong again. Median income shows a no improvement due to the flood of baby boomers retiring and little old ladies living by themselves. There are more single households than ever before which skew the number, a trend that will continue for 2 decades as boomers age and die.

    In 10 years this number will still not show much increase yet the economy will be doing quite well.

    Buy a dictionary. Then look up "median." The chart shows the difference between income before inflation and income after inflation. Both cases share the same demographics. Only difference is the adjustment for inflation. Accept the facts, or don't. Not agreeing with them does not make them less factual.

    Yes, use that dictionary. Median is the middle number. When you have more and more numbers at the lower end, as we do when boomers retire and hence see a drop in income, the median will also be lowered. It is not the same demographic....the household in 2000 is 17 years older in 2017. The middle aged worker is now a retiree.

    Boomers that may have been making 70k per year while working are now making 50k per year in retirement. This drop in income does not mean the economy stinks. And when you have 10,000 boomers per day retiring, hence skewing income numbers lower, you will get results such as you have presented, which will be used to control the largely uneducated masses.

    The very "them" that you hold in such contempt, hold you to be their voice.

    Your ramblings about demographics have nothing to do with what was presented in the chart: the difference between income before inflation and income after inflation. It has nothing to do with the level of the income and everything to do with the difference that inflation makes. In fact, contrary to your "demographics cause income levels to fall" argument, nominal income (red line) has actually grown.

    Again, you try to discredit fact by calling it conspiracy theory, even something as simple as the affect of inflation on income. lol. Trying to create distraction/confusion with your typical "fog" about something as simple as inflation is at least consistent.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2017 7:10AM

    In fact, contrary to your "demographics cause income levels to fall" argument, nominal income (red line) has actually grown.

    I did not say anything about incomes dropping. Nor did I say anything about a conspiracy. I did however explain why the median income has not increased.

    The fog you may see is your lack of knowledge of mathematics, economics and demographics. I know most on this board understand completely what I write and I'm sorry you dont. I try to explain in relatively simple terms. I'm sorry if I can't get simple enough.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    I did not say anything about incomes dropping.

    Sure you did, and I quote you: "When you have more and more numbers at the lower end, as we do when boomers retire and hence see a drop in income, the median will also be lowered."

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The voluntary drop in income from retirees should not be included in a graph of overall household income that tries to make the reader believe that wages are stagnant or declining.

    Giving up your income is not the same as a reduction in income due to a poor economy. But you know that, I hope, and are just grasping for straws.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is this kind of like stating with great angst that some 94 million Americans are unemployed, without mentioning how many of them are under 12 years old, or more than 70 years old, or are legitimately disabled?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is this kind of like stating with great angst that some 94 million Americans are unemployed, without mentioning how many of them are under 12 years old, or more than 70 years old, or are legitimately disabled?

    I agree with your point. The focus should be squarely upon the number of under-employed, unemployed & looking for work, those who are legitimately disabled, those who are unemployed & scamming the system, those who are retired and those who are unemployed and have given up looking - instead of a nominal number that doesn't give any information.

    There's plenty of angst if you look at the details for under-employed and adults still living with their parents.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2017 9:44AM

    _The voluntary drop in income from retirees should not be included in a graph of overall household income that tries to make the reader believe that wages are stagnant or declining.

    Giving up your income is not the same as a reduction in income due to a poor economy_

    I'm not sure that I know of anyone who is happy to voluntarily give up their income.

    Why does the italicize function only work 50% of the time?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2017 5:20PM

    @Baley said:
    Is this kind of like stating with great angst that some 94 million Americans are unemployed, without mentioning how many of them are under 12 years old, or more than 70 years old, or are legitimately disabled?

    The 94,708,000 unemployed you refer to are actually known as those looking for work when analyzing the labor force participation rate and does not include 12 year olds or retirees:

    "The participation rate is an important metric to use when analyzing unemployment data because it reflects the number of people who are interested in participating in the work force. These people are either looking for employment or are employed, and are at or above the working age of 16. People not included in the participation rate include those who do not want to work or can't work. This includes people such as students, homemakers, incarcerated people and retirees."

    So, when you look through your "fog" you come to understand that there are over 94 million Americans who are eligible, willing and able to work full time but are unable to do so. Says volumes for the true state of unemployment in America.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • renman95renman95 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Median price of pineapples are up .10!

    Paradise lost.

    Aloha.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    __I'm not sure that I know of anyone who is happy to voluntarily give up their income.

    I think it's called retirement jmski.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just read yesterday that lots of brokers are worried that retirees won't be reinvesting but will give the money to charities. 10 $trillion is a large pool of money and you can correctly surmise that gov.com will be putting their hands into it even more than they already have.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2017 8:32AM

    In most cases retirement is a personal choice, not a mandated requirement. Most people retiree because they can afford to. I, like many, was happy to give up my full time income. My time became more important than the additional income.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gov.Com already requires distributions from retirement accounts after the age of 70 1/2. Most folks give their assets to their kids, not charities. However when charities get the money they often spend it....money that goes into the economy.

    Derryb, that's why I use the word voluntary.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2017 7:43AM

    @cohodk said:
    Gov.Com already requires distributions from retirement accounts after the age of 70 1/2. Most folks give their assets to their kids, not charities. However when charities get the money they often spend it....money that goes into the economy.

    Derryb, that's why I use the word voluntary.

    IRS requires "minimum" distribution from IRA's (but not Roth IRAs) to BEGIN at the age of 70 1/2 (They want their taxes on what was tax deferred). These accounts can go on for years of minimum withdrawals. IRA's are a small portion of the overall national pension system. Most pensions begin well before the age of 70 1/2. All money eventually gets spent into the economy. The lower down the income "food chain" of the recipient, the sooner it gets spent on someone else's productivity.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Waiting for the jobs report later this morning. 2017 may be the year where stackers discover whether their $1200 chunks of gold are truly good inflation hedges.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2017 8:11PM

    @Coinstartled said:
    2017 may be the year where stackers discover whether their $1200 chunks of gold are truly good inflation hedges.

    There have been many years where this was proven. Declining gold prices tell us when we are in those rare periods of deflation.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gold declined from 1980 to 2001 and from 2011 to today. That's 27 of the last 37 years. Is that rare? And if that was deflation, then why did real estate prices go up, stocks go up, cars go up, medical costs, wages, utilities, ect, all went up. That was deflation?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was a contest to see who could bring you back. lol

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    It was a contest to see who could bring you back. lol

    Yeah, I'm a sucker for the ignorant and stupid.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2017 6:54PM

    @cohodk said:
    I got a 4-pack of English muffins for $6 yesterday. 18 eggs are still less than $2.50. The package of Dunkin Donuts I got for $7.99 last summer is now $6.99. Bacon was $7.99 but if I got 2 the second one was free.

    Now I'm hungry.

    ....pricey muffins.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    @cohodk said:
    I got a 4-pack of English muffins for $6 yesterday. 18 eggs are still less than $2.50. The package of Dunkin Donuts I got for $7.99 last summer is now $6.99. Bacon was $7.99 but if I got 2 the second one was free.

    Now I'm hungry.

    ....as well as grumpy.

    Nah, intolerant. > @cohodk said:

    I got a 4-pack of English muffins for $6 yesterday. 18 eggs are still less than $2.50. The package of Dunkin Donuts I got for $7.99 last summer is now $6.99. Bacon was $7.99 but if I got 2 the second one was free.

    Now I'm hungry.

    18 eggs at Wallyworld were 84c this morning. Same price as in 1925. Dang.

    Any extreme prices of goods in your area...higher or lower?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 10,244 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2017 5:33AM

    @cohodk said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @cohodk said:
    I got a 4-pack of English muffins for $6 yesterday. 18 eggs are still less than $2.50. The package of Dunkin Donuts I got for $7.99 last summer is now $6.99. Bacon was $7.99 but if I got 2 the second one was free.

    Now I'm hungry.

    ....as well as grumpy.

    Nah, intolerant. > @cohodk said:

    I got a 4-pack of English muffins for $6 yesterday. 18 eggs are still less than $2.50. The package of Dunkin Donuts I got for $7.99 last summer is now $6.99. Bacon was $7.99 but if I got 2 the second one was free.

    Now I'm hungry.

    18 eggs at Wallyworld were 84c this morning. Same price as in 1925. Dang.

    Any extreme prices of goods in your area...higher or lower?

    Check the date code on those walmart eggs , they could be from 1925 . #ROLLBACK

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Stock market, Housing prices, 60's Big Block Muscle cars up HUGE past 12mos.
    Inflation is by sector. IMHO

    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2017 1:41PM

    It's worth while to note that not every company stock, house, or car is up Yuge.

    The most desireable ones sure are, but the prices of bad shares, homes, and autos tend to go down until they find a bottom feeding buyer.

    Some people want to call every price change inflation or deflation, but sometimes it's just the market forces reflecting supply and demand trends of the various quality of goods.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @cohodk said:
    I got a 4-pack of English muffins for $6 yesterday. 18 eggs are still less than $2.50. The package of Dunkin Donuts I got for $7.99 last summer is now $6.99. Bacon was $7.99 but if I got 2 the second one was free.

    Now I'm hungry.

    ....as well as grumpy.

    Nah, intolerant. > @cohodk said:

    I got a 4-pack of English muffins for $6 yesterday. 18 eggs are still less than $2.50. The package of Dunkin Donuts I got for $7.99 last summer is now $6.99. Bacon was $7.99 but if I got 2 the second one was free.

    Now I'm hungry.

    18 eggs at Wallyworld were 84c this morning. Same price as in 1925. Dang.

    Any extreme prices of goods in your area...higher or lower?

    Enjoy your eggs: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/06/how-to-make-a-rotten-egg/

  • drwstr123drwstr123 Posts: 7,038 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "18 eggs at Wallyworld were 84c this morning. Same price as in 1925. Dang."

    Only difference is they aren't the same quality eggs.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some people want to call every price change inflation or deflation, but sometimes it's just the market forces reflecting supply and demand trends of the various quality of goods.

    True enough. I paid around $3.50 for a dozen eggs not too long ago, but just last week I bought a dozen at Target for $0.54. Go figure.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Only difference is they aren't the same quality eggs.

    Maybe I should send them to PCGS?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BruceSBruceS Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw this thread and it said 789 new posts.. :o:o needless to say I passed.

    Who's resurrecting these old Glicker threads? Are they worth reading?


    eBay ID-bruceshort978
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  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Some people want to call every price change inflation or deflation, but sometimes it's just the market forces reflecting supply and demand trends of the various quality of goods.

    True enough. I paid around $3.50 for a dozen eggs not too long ago, but just last week I bought a dozen at Target for $0.54. Go figure.

    The birds got sick once in a while, thinning the supply and driving prices up. More hens were bred by nventivized farmers, now there's plenty of eggs.

    Look for common lean whiter pork to go on sale, nicer dark and fatty gourmet bellies are still relatively pricy though

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Chicken wings should be lower in 1-2 years as those hens are killed off.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 10,244 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Chicken is free today . I went out to get the mail this morning and there was a rooster next to the mailbox . He followed me back to the house and seems like he is going to stay. Something or someone pulled all his tail feathers out he looks a little odd with a bald ass. Maybe a near miss with a coyote

    If he stays a few days I'll see about building him a house , then I suppose I'll have to get some hens .

  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is my inflation report as I sit on the toilet. What happened to the other 1" of my toilet paper? I can use it right about now....

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Robotics will help to ensure deflation

    "As machines replace humans, the cost of producing goods will drop, and as more people will be competing for the remaining jobs, wages will trend downwards. Wages will rise in some specialised sectors, but these jobs will demand a specialised set of skills, for example, robotics. It appears that AI will only exacerbate the current situation in the years to come. Therefore, deflation and not inflation is what we might have to deal with for years to come."

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Times are a'changin'.

    Personal roles and a personal sense of value have forever been defined by what the individual can constructively and vitally contribute to the family/community. However, the relentless progression of this era is (in effect) to devalue what individuals (beyond an elite few) can constructively and convincingly contribute.

    While the advances in productivity and human knowledge are amazing and truly exciting, we're left with a revolutionary question regarding where most individual humans will find their purpose in this new world.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2017 6:54PM

    Programmable logic controllers are awesome!! Got to love those PID (proportional/integral/derivative) algorithms!!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And we wonder why the economy had shifted to services.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • aj2525raj2525r Posts: 120 ✭✭

    Hello,

    I write this post to complain about my inflationary property taxes. I live in Dallas, Texas and even somewhat successfully protested my property tax increase. Without the protest it would have gone up the legally allowed 10%.

    **Fact is, it is still going up 6.9% from 2016 to 2017. **

    I feel for people living in many places because it is difficult to escape property taxes and cash strapped city, county and state governments seem to think increasing property taxes are necessary to fund their retirement accounts.

    That said I think technology and 7.4 billion people (OECD says 65.453% are working age) so 4.84 billion workers is DEflationary going forward.

    Regards

    I still call my accumulation my collection!
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2017 6:05AM

    @aj2525r said:
    Hello,

    I write this post to complain about my inflationary property taxes. I live in Dallas, Texas and even somewhat successfully protested my property tax increase. Without the protest it would have gone up the legally allowed 10%.

    **Fact is, it is still going up 6.9% from 2016 to 2017. **

    I feel for people living in many places because it is difficult to escape property taxes and cash strapped city, county and state governments seem to think increasing property taxes are necessary to fund their retirement accounts.

    That said I think technology and 7.4 billion people (OECD says 65.453% are working age) so 4.84 billion workers is DEflationary going forward.

    Regards

    Legally allowed 10%. ??????

    How much did your property appreciate in value?
    https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2017/02/28/dallas-area-home-prices-another-81-percent-case-shiller-index

    Enjoy the great return on your savings.

    7.4 billion gotta eat, drink and sleep somewhere. Seems like a lot of demand to me.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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