For months now on the boards, dozens of us have been discussing how low pop 10's have been escalating in value consistently for what...half a year...12 months. I dunno. For those of you who still compare current auction results (or even recent Ebay sales) to VCP that utilizes prices from several years ago, do you think that you are wisely utlizing VCP or do you think you perhaps you are failing to recognize a broad-based rally in prices of low pop 10s that stretches across several decades of card issues?
<< <i>For months now on the boards, dozens of us have been discussing how low pop 10's have been escalating in value consistently for what...half a year...12 months. I dunno. For those of you who still compare current auction results (or even recent Ebay sales) to VCP that utilizes prices from several years ago, do you think that you are wisely utlizing VCP or do you think you perhaps you are failing to recognize a broad-based rally in prices of low pop 10s that stretches across several decades of card issues? >>
I agree. I recently got out the stock market and feel like this stuff is a better investment and a whole lot more fun. Besides, I made a killing on Apple. How much higher could it really go?
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
Congratulations Eomint on the Clemente! I can only dream of owning a card like that; you made it a reality.
'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.' -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
Based on what I've seen in the '71 Topps thread in the set registry, I believe him.
I guess he could have been kidding.......
'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.' -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
No not kidding at all. Last year I bought the PSA 9 Nagurski, this year I figured I wanted to find something really special...and Dmitri is taking the $$$ and using for a good cause. Win win for everyone!
I hear ya Bubblegirl. You're one of the experts and I appreciate the feedback. One other nice little thing for me is I live 10 minutes from the SCP office in Laguna Niguel so I'll be making an appointment to pick up my cards...
As a side note, I am in the market for a nice Ozzie RC at PSA 9. You have anything?
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<< <i>No not kidding at all. Last year I bought the PSA 9 Nagurski, this year I figured I wanted to find something really special...and Dmitri is taking the $$$ and using for a good cause. Win win for everyone! >>
Wow, congratulations. Amazing purchases
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To me one of the big storylines of the auction (and there are many) is the Frank Thomas NNOF. We have witnessed quite the run on this card in PSA 8 recently, after none were offered publicly for some time. I believe all grades will see a bump in the wake of this PSA 10 sale.
Thomas' rep and stats speak for themselves. That this is an error card, genuinely rare, and one of the few-- if not the most-- desirable card of its period, all point to it claiming a special, rarefied place in our hobby. I'm glad to see such a special sale bring this card some deserved attention.
<< <i>No not kidding at all. Last year I bought the PSA 9 Nagurski, this year I figured I wanted to find something really special...and Dmitri is taking the $$$ and using for a good cause. Win win for everyone! >>
Congratulations! Got to quote you and correct you, you SHOULD have said you wanted to find something else really special because that Nagurski IS really special too!
I think you make some valid points, however I should point out a couple of other perspectives. In 2005 I think it was I bought a 54 Banks 10 (the other one that Dmitri did not have and which btw is the nicest copy Ive ever seen) for 40K, everybody said I was nuts...last night the hammer went down on that card for just under 150K...
In my view this is owning a piece of history w the real high quality stuff...I dont collect comic books but I just saw the first iron man appearance issue from the 1960s of which there are 3 in 9.6 graded by CGC sell for $375K...so if that's vs a 1955 1/1 Clemente RC PSA 10 you know which you can sign me up for all day long!
Also, the PSA 10 Ozzie Smith RC went for around $19,500, so I guess the one at $20k a few months back wasn't such a fluke. Henderson RC PSA 10 just over $11k was also very strong.
EOMINT ... congrats on purchasing the Clemente. Don't think I have ever been able to say CONGRATS to someone on the purchase of a card that expensive! May it bring you lots of joy and may it escalate in price!
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Congrats to everyone on their winnings. I bid on a bunch but only got a few 1983-1987 cards:
'83 Fleer Sandberg '84 Donruss Strawberry '86 Donruss McGriff '86 Donruss O'neill with no Dmitri Young on label '86 Donruss Rookies Bo Jackson '86 Topps traded Bo Jackson '86 Topps Traded Tiffany Bo Jackson '87 Donruss Bo Jackson '87 Fleer Bo Jackson '87 Fleer Glossy Bo Jackson '87 Topps Tiffany Bo Jackson >>
<< <i>EOMINT ... congrats on purchasing the Clemente. Don't think I have ever been able to say CONGRATS to someone on the purchase of a card that expensive! May it bring you lots of joy and may it escalate in price! >>
Doug I couldnt agree more with what u said! So on a deal like this do you bring bags of cash,maybe in a briefcase? Thats one hell of a buy,congrats!
Even though I do not know eomint personally, I am actually kind of stoked that 'one of us' is going to have that card in his collection. Pretty silly, huh?
'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.' -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
I agree. The Clemente and the Aaron were kind of the face of the auction...and I think people will still be talking about "The Dmitri Auction" 5-10 yrs from now.
I think you make some valid points, however I should point out a couple of other perspectives. In 2005 I think it was I bought a 54 Banks 10 (the other one that Dmitri did not have and which btw is the nicest copy Ive ever seen) for 40K, everybody said I was nuts...last night the hammer went down on that card for just under 150K...
In my view this is owning a piece of history w the real high quality stuff...I dont collect comic books but I just saw the first iron man appearance issue from the 1960s of which there are 3 in 9.6 graded by CGC sell for $375K...so if that's vs a 1955 1/1 Clemente RC PSA 10 you know which you can sign me up for all day long!
EOMINT >>
I agree Eric. Even for what you paid for the Clemente, that's a mid-size house in the SF bay area. That may seem like a lot of money but when you're talking about an iconic piece of Americana and one that will likely not have an equal in the future, that's not a crazy price at all. I think that card still has room to appreciate in the future. Especially if the Fed keeps printing money like it grows on trees. Collectibles are a nice hedge against inflation and you get to enjoy them while you are holding them as opposed to a stock certificate or a rental property.
And Walter you were right about my 71 set, though it has recently stalled at just over 90% done, all 9s with a few 10s including the Seaver. But the supply of cards I need now has slowed to a trickle, could take me years to finish the final 10%...ugh!
I wonder if any more major collectors or famous collectors who have their name's on the label will sell off their collection and how would those do? This was a really cool auction!
There is a rule of thumb in hard assets. You buy the best and over time it will go up. These low Pop 10's are just that, the best that money can buy.
I am speechless that a board member was the buyer for the Clemente. That is absolutely awesome!!! I think that was a fantastic purchase. Not only would I expect this card to become much more valuable it has to be an unreal feeling knowing you have a modern day masterpiece. That is a true centerpiece to any collection and it sounds like the rest of your collection is nothing short of amazing too. You truly own something that no one else has and money simply can't replace it. So cool!
I think the prices in this auction are a reflection of a few things.
#1) PSA is King
#2) There is no shortage of collectors in the market for rare cards.
#3) Hard assets continue to be a tremendous investment and there are plenty of examples in this auction where the prior sale(s) were dramatically lower then the final selling price.
#4) This type of auction format brings the highest prices period.
This is a tremendous outcome for the card collecting hobby and I think it is fantastic that the auction was so successful and it is great to hear fellow board members stepped up to plate and put their cash on the line!
So Eric ... are you going to wait until you have the Clemente in hand before you put it up as the prize in your trivia contest for the CU board members? LMFAO!
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>. and the pattern I see is these kinds of auctions tend to sell at higher prices than eBay and have a risky format. So for me, it's not worth the "risk" to get involved with them ... yet >>
I don't think anyone can doubt that. All you have to do is run a search on most of the 80's and 90's cards that are much more frequently on eBay to see this auction commanded much higher prices...a few examples
82T Ripken for $1100 ($500) 83T Gwynn $756 ($350-$400) 83T Boggs $566 ($300) 85D Eric Davis $230 (Can anyone enlighten me on this one? I am really confused by this. Double the Puckett and Clemens in the same set. These are going for $40-50 on eBay) 87D Will Clark $116 ($20) 87D Jamie Moyer $86 ($15)-This one seems really weird too 89Upper Deck Griffey for $575-THis one has consistenly been $200-$250 on eBay
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I think that there is no question that the value of cards is creeping up in significant (although not all) sectors these past few months. Therefore, I think the VCP averages will start showing upward creep. Saying that, bubblebathgirl has a point in that many items purchased from auction houses will see a decline in value if they are sold on ebay. People often overpay for items from auction houses for various reasons. For example, if you are buying a 50K card, many people just don't feel comfortable paying that amount on ebay because they feel there is some risk they may get scammed and not receive the item. However, if a large auction house (e.g., Heritage, SCP, etc) is backing the item, they are more comfortable shelling out big dollars for the card. If you are buying a small dollar item, like bubblebath girl said, I would still think it's better to look for that card on ebay since you'll get better pricing, especially if it's not a pop1 card.
To be frank, I still don't completely understand many of the prices coming out of the SCP auction. It is back to that old question of absolute rarity vs comparative rarity that not only affects cards but other collectibles like coins. Do you want a card where only 10 exist of the card in the entire world or do you want a card where 50,000 exist of the card, but only 2 exist in the highest grade? I still prefer absolute rarity myself, but I think grading for the highest grades can still be subjective and for vintage and modern cards, you don't know when more are coming. This is much more true of modern than vintage because there is very little unopened material for vintage remaining while there are hoards of unopened cases for modern still out there. However, there are weak 10's and strong 9's as the Kaline in this thread showed. If I had a strong 9 rookie Clemente or the Kaline, I would be re-submitting that card like mad in attempts to get the 10. And if more 10's appear, the value of the existing ones would typically go down. This is why as a collector, I don't see much reason to pay big money to buy 10's. I would be happy with just superb looking 8's that go significantly cheaper. However, as an investor, even with all that I said before in not understanding the mentality, I could still see buying 10s and considering that investment material. Because as others have said, there are always people with deep pockets who only want the best, and those people will still go for the 10's.
<< <i>I won the color shifted Ozzie and the NNOF Thomas. >>
CONGRATS! Enjoy! Did you see the written description of the card that the auction house had? Read carefully: I guess they knew he was a HOFer even before he started playing in MLB: One of only 2 perfect GEM MINT PSA 10's from the very condition conscious 1979 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball issue. The slick fielding shortstop played 15 of his 18 year career with the St. Louis Cardinals. The 15 time All Star won 13 consecutive Gold Gloves from 1980 through 1992. He was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1972.
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Clearly for cards of a certain magnitude, you would not put them on Ebay...for true rarities private sale or a very prestigious auction are the only routes to go bc there is a limited audience for those pieces.
I also agree that in many cases a sweet 9 is just as appealing as a 10, visually very hard to see the difference...I would have bought a Clemente RC in a 9 if I ever had the chance at a nice one, but the only one I remember seeing for sale in the past 10 yrs had an iffy corner, so I had to make a decision...I typically wont replace 9s with 10s, for example I have a 54 Aaron 9 that actually belonged to Dmitri which he sold bc he was pissed it didnt get it a 10, it is a great looking card and every bit as nice to me as the 2 10s Ive seen. This was more a special situation of actually needing the card, not bumping up from a 9 to a 10. Though I admit on the Brock I have 2 9s and decided to buy the 10 and trade or sell the 9s to fill in other gaps in my collection.
It will likely be a long time before we see an auction like this again...would need to be Spence or Fogel selling off their collections or something like that...I eagerly await that day if it ever comes!
It's going to be interesting to watch the flood of nice PSA 9s of these cards hit Ebay & other auction houses in the coming months. I'll be curious to see if the frenzy continues.
Rats--I was hoping that one of the card companies had bought the Clemente card, so that they could then cut it up into little pieces to use for Clemente "memorabilia" cards.
Collector At Work raises some fascinating points, especially regarding true rarity vs. relative rarity.
I suppose much of what I feel regarding this auction of key PSA 10s falls under the rubric of "BUY THE CARD, NOT THE HOLDER," but I'd like to expand on it anyway.
Today as an exercise I showed several people two Rickey Henderson RC scans. Both scans were the same size and high rez.
The grades were covered; one was the SCP 10 and one a beautiful PSA 9.
Every single individual said they'd prefer to own the 9-- which is available for a few hundred dollars, as compared to $10K+ for the PSA 10.
This smacks to me of craziness.
Now let me say that a guy can do whatever he wants with his money. To each his own, live and let live, etc. God knows I've blown loot on things that in saner/hindsight moments strike me as utterly asinine. But I wanted the rock star hotel room for the after party or the car or the whatever, so it was done.
But when it comes to cards, I just cannot understand how the subjective/arbitrary "10" placed on the flip by "professional graders" can cause serious blindness-- in most cases to pretty smart/successful guys.
If I absolutely love a certain card and cannot find a 9 that strikes my eye as gem mint, I will go after the 10-- but it must be a worthy 10, a truly perfect card in every way.
The fact is, there are 9s of almost every card that could be 10s on a good day-- and they can be had for a fraction of the 10 cost.
In other words, I believe the best value lies in finding 10s that are masquerading as 9s, or "hiding out" in 9 holders.
I can envision graders hanging out in the PSA parking lot, sparking the occasional j, and sometimes making mistakes or just being human and subjective. To therefore plunk down such huge premiums for the often-overgraded 10 as opposed to the under-graded 9 is crazy to me. Again, when a 10 is a no-brainer perfect card, it's tempting-- but even then one can probably find a 9 that looks identical.
Is it thus all about "owning the best?" And if so, why let "the best" be defined by anything other than your own two eyes?
Now when it comes to investment purposes, I will not dispute that because so many go blind in the face of the "10" on the flip, it is often a good financial move to buy a 10 and then sell it for a profit down the line. But if we're discussing personal collections, I would take a beautiful PSA 9 of CARD X (that many might prefer "grade unseen" to a 10 of the same card) and the cash difference between that card and the 10 to spend on other gorgeous 9s.
This same logic can (and I believe should) be extrapolated to the comparison of any card in "X grade" vs "X-1 grade." I think-- almost always-- a given card can be found in "X-1 grade" that looks identical or superior to the card in "X-grade." It therefore baffles me to see such exorbitant premiums paid for PSA 10s WHEN those 10s are not absolutely flawless examples. This musing in no way applies to any specific card from the current SCP auction, but is rather a general observation.
I also think that the "PSA 10 rarity" is a rarity that is in many ways manufactured, or carefully maintained-- and this is not a negative thing, it's only natural. As one of the posters above stated so well, I would much rather own something that is rare in any state, as opposed to rare just because of the 10 put on the label.
For example, I'd rather own a hypothetical cello pack with CARD X centered on both front and back, than that same CARD X in PSA 10-- if there are more 10s than the cello and also many beautiful 9s out there. The cello is just so much rarer, in an absolute sense. That's one of the reasons why I got into star packs lately-- and also weaned myself off my my early collecting penchant for 10s, and began hunting down the 10-worthy 9s.
So I agree completely with what the EO has said about owning a perfect-looking Aaron 9 and not stepping up to the 10 for the grade's sake. Savvy collectors will never be impressed by an overgraded 10 but will always appreciate the value in a 9 that can hang with 10s all day.
For what it's worth his 1995 Bowman's Best #B2 Vladimir Guerrero PSA 10 Rookie (he didn't have the Refractor) sold for 3x what the last Ebay auction pulled.
Did anyone else notice that there were only 11 cards that failed to meet the minimum bid- and in that group were ALL SEVEN cards of his brother?
'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.' -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
<< <i>Did anyone else notice that there were only 11 cards that failed to meet the minimum bid- and in that group were ALL SEVEN cards of his brother? >>
There was a BVG 9 Hank Aaron RC about 8 years ago that I missed at about 7K. I believe it looks as eye appealing at the PSA 10 that sold. I wish I bought it. The Clemente though, that's a simply amazing card.
<< <i>There was a BVG 9 Hank Aaron RC about 8 years ago that I missed at about 7K. I believe it looks as eye appealing at the PSA 10 that sold. I wish I bought it. The Clemente though, that's a simply amazing card. >>
Exactly. I mean how much money is annually thrown at PSA 10s when there are identical cards lurking out there in PSA 9 holders? It's just silly. I'm not talking about truly perfect 10s here at all, I admit I do own some, but rather I'm talking about situations like the two Hendersons I mentioned, in which the 10 is clearly inferior to a great 9. One cost 11K and one $350. Or the Reggie Jackson RC that just sold for 100K+. I will admit I haven't held it in hand. But I can say for a fact that I have seen a PSA 9 that costs 100K less and has got to be of equal quality.
I just think back to when I was a kid bringing my allowance to the card store, and looking through the several examples of CARD X that I wanted, and going over them all with a close eye or in some cases a magnifying glass-- I went with what I knew was the best one. To throw that common sense evaluation of two cards out the window and tons of cash along with it just because some graders put a 10 on the lesser card is nuts.
The Aaron and Rose were purchased by a friend of mine who I recently got fired up about collecting again...super guy, will be an asset to the hobby, but wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
The Wilhelm seemed like a relatively good value. A high series 1952 with no other 10s; second best reliever in history. Never realized he didn't even start his Major League Career until age 30
Also Dwight Evans rookie from another rare high series. If the irrational and silly Baseball Writers had a clue and understood he was better than Rice, it would have been at least $3 000
Either way, these are all some amazing cards that were offered and will likely be only a handful, if not only, that will ever be in a PSA 10 holder. Definitely the cream of the crop. Let me also say this. Unopened material is beginning to reach it's peak. How many boxes and boxes must one open to attain that potential PSA 10 card. Since this is about baseball, what does a 1980 Topps box cost now? Over $300 if I'm not mistaken with vending at $180 and cello and rack boxes lacking in the secondary market. There are some on here that want to bust and bust until they pack pull their own PSA 9 of PSA 10(Myself as an example and BBG's set building). There are some that are not willing to or cannot spend the time to bust, grade and then do something with the extra cards. Either way, as the pop reports show, it's likely certain cards are simply worthy of the prices that are realized.
It's a good point. I think anything pre, say, 1982, is going to be harder and harder to find PSA 9 or PSA 10 out of unopened material. I am not so sure there is all this unopened stuff out there people claim collectors are holding onto. Most of the PSA 10's bought in this auction from the 70's and earlier should have Population Reports that remain relatively unchanged.
As a side note, I happen to think the 1982 Topps PSA 10 Ripken at $500-$600 a pop is one of the more overpriced cards out there. Yeah, Ripken is an icon with a lot of collectors but 235/21,000 is a pretty big number that should get higher as it's not a card that's tough to find high grade. Same with the Traded version at 156/8185, and as more and more people break open their factory sets and send the card in it should keep increasing.
Dmitri's auction brought in $1,100 and $1,800 respectively which may be awfully tough to sustain
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I think 4SC had a single sub where they obtained like 60 PSA 10s of the Ripken Traded. With the transparency of the pop report we can thankfully see something like that-- and thus realize paying a premium/top dollar for such a card is not a wise move, if one cares at all about loot.
I feel the same about the big RCs from the 1983 Topps Set; demand for them will always be there, to be sure, but there are definitely more PSA 10s (and 10-worthy PSA 9s) out there.
Here's a short article from the Detroit News regarding the auction. Oddly enough, the article makes a vague claim that Dmitri had $5M into his collection, which means he actually lost money on the sale. I find that hard to believe...
<< <i>Here's a short article from the Detroit News regarding the auction. Oddly enough, the article makes a vague claim that Dmitri had $5M into his collection, which means he actually lost money on the sale. I find that hard to believe... >>
I would guess that he had to buy a few RC cards that he thought might get the "10" before actually getting it. There is a picture of him in SMR looking at a bunch of raw cards so I would think that he has a nice lot of NM-MT+ rookies.
Comments
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>For months now on the boards, dozens of us have been discussing how low pop 10's have been escalating in value consistently for what...half a year...12 months. I dunno. For those of you who still compare current auction results (or even recent Ebay sales) to VCP that utilizes prices from several years ago, do you think that you are wisely utlizing VCP or do you think you perhaps you are failing to recognize a broad-based rally in prices of low pop 10s that stretches across several decades of card issues? >>
I agree. I recently got out the stock market and feel like this stuff is a better investment and a whole lot more fun. Besides, I made a killing on Apple. How much higher could it really go?
TheClockworkAngelCollection
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
<< <i>Congratulations Eomint on the Clemente! I can only dream of owning a card like that; you made it a reality. >>
I thought he was kidding..... Eomint- Did you really buy that?
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
I guess he could have been kidding.......
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
As a side note, I am in the market for a nice Ozzie RC at PSA 9. You have anything?
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>No not kidding at all. Last year I bought the PSA 9 Nagurski, this year I figured I wanted to find something really special...and Dmitri is taking the $$$ and using for a good cause. Win win for everyone! >>
Wow, congratulations. Amazing purchases
TheClockworkAngelCollection
Thomas' rep and stats speak for themselves. That this is an error card, genuinely rare, and one of the few-- if not the most-- desirable card of its period, all point to it claiming a special, rarefied place in our hobby. I'm glad to see such a special sale bring this card some deserved attention.
<< <i>No not kidding at all. Last year I bought the PSA 9 Nagurski, this year I figured I wanted to find something really special...and Dmitri is taking the $$$ and using for a good cause. Win win for everyone! >>
Congratulations! Got to quote you and correct you, you SHOULD have said you wanted to find something else really special because that Nagurski IS really special too!
I think you make some valid points, however I should point out a couple of other perspectives. In 2005 I think it was I bought a 54 Banks 10 (the other one that Dmitri did not have and which btw is the nicest copy Ive ever seen) for 40K, everybody said I was nuts...last night the hammer went down on that card for just under 150K...
In my view this is owning a piece of history w the real high quality stuff...I dont collect comic books but I just saw the first iron man appearance issue from the 1960s of which there are 3 in 9.6 graded by CGC sell for $375K...so if that's vs a 1955 1/1 Clemente RC PSA 10 you know which you can sign me up for all day long!
EOMINT
Also, the PSA 10 Ozzie Smith RC went for around $19,500, so I guess the one at $20k a few months back wasn't such a fluke.
Henderson RC PSA 10 just over $11k was also very strong.
Dave
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>
<< <i>Congrats to everyone on their winnings. I bid on a bunch but only got a few 1983-1987 cards:
'83 Fleer Sandberg
'84 Donruss Strawberry
'86 Donruss McGriff
'86 Donruss O'neill with no Dmitri Young on label
'86 Donruss Rookies Bo Jackson
'86 Topps traded Bo Jackson
'86 Topps Traded Tiffany Bo Jackson
'87 Donruss Bo Jackson
'87 Fleer Bo Jackson
'87 Fleer Glossy Bo Jackson
'87 Topps Tiffany Bo Jackson >>
That's a sweet run of 80's RC's!!!! >>
Thanks Miconelegacy!
<< <i>EOMINT ... congrats on purchasing the Clemente. Don't think I have ever been able to say CONGRATS to someone on the purchase of a card that expensive! May it bring you lots of joy and may it escalate in price! >>
Doug I couldnt agree more with what u said! So on a deal like this do you bring bags of cash,maybe in a briefcase?
Thats one hell of a buy,congrats!
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>Bubblegirl,
I think you make some valid points, however I should point out a couple of other perspectives. In 2005 I think it was I bought a 54 Banks 10 (the other one that Dmitri did not have and which btw is the nicest copy Ive ever seen) for 40K, everybody said I was nuts...last night the hammer went down on that card for just under 150K...
In my view this is owning a piece of history w the real high quality stuff...I dont collect comic books but I just saw the first iron man appearance issue from the 1960s of which there are 3 in 9.6 graded by CGC sell for $375K...so if that's vs a 1955 1/1 Clemente RC PSA 10 you know which you can sign me up for all day long!
EOMINT >>
I agree Eric. Even for what you paid for the Clemente, that's a mid-size house in the SF bay area. That may seem like a lot of money but when you're talking about an iconic piece of Americana and one that will likely not have an equal in the future, that's not a crazy price at all. I think that card still has room to appreciate in the future. Especially if the Fed keeps printing money like it grows on trees. Collectibles are a nice hedge against inflation and you get to enjoy them while you are holding them as opposed to a stock certificate or a rental property.
EOMINT
I am speechless that a board member was the buyer for the Clemente. That is absolutely awesome!!! I think that was a fantastic purchase. Not only would I expect this card to become much more valuable it has to be an unreal feeling knowing you have a modern day masterpiece. That is a true centerpiece to any collection and it sounds like the rest of your collection is nothing short of amazing too. You truly own something that no one else has and money simply can't replace it. So cool!
I think the prices in this auction are a reflection of a few things.
#1) PSA is King
#2) There is no shortage of collectors in the market for rare cards.
#3) Hard assets continue to be a tremendous investment and there are plenty of examples in this auction where the prior sale(s) were dramatically lower then the final selling price.
#4) This type of auction format brings the highest prices period.
This is a tremendous outcome for the card collecting hobby and I think it is fantastic that the auction was so successful and it is great to hear fellow board members stepped up to plate and put their cash on the line!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>. and the pattern I see is these kinds of auctions tend to sell at higher prices than eBay and have a risky format. So for me, it's not worth the "risk" to get involved with them ... yet
I don't think anyone can doubt that. All you have to do is run a search on most of the 80's and 90's cards that are much more frequently on eBay to see this auction commanded much higher prices...a few examples
82T Ripken for $1100 ($500)
83T Gwynn $756 ($350-$400)
83T Boggs $566 ($300)
85D Eric Davis $230 (Can anyone enlighten me on this one? I am really confused by this. Double the Puckett and Clemens in the same set. These are going for $40-50 on eBay)
87D Will Clark $116 ($20)
87D Jamie Moyer $86 ($15)-This one seems really weird too
89Upper Deck Griffey for $575-THis one has consistenly been $200-$250 on eBay
TheClockworkAngelCollection
To be frank, I still don't completely understand many of the prices coming out of the SCP auction. It is back to that old question of absolute rarity vs comparative rarity that not only affects cards but other collectibles like coins. Do you want a card where only 10 exist of the card in the entire world or do you want a card where 50,000 exist of the card, but only 2 exist in the highest grade? I still prefer absolute rarity myself, but I think grading for the highest grades can still be subjective and for vintage and modern cards, you don't know when more are coming. This is much more true of modern than vintage because there is very little unopened material for vintage remaining while there are hoards of unopened cases for modern still out there. However, there are weak 10's and strong 9's as the Kaline in this thread showed. If I had a strong 9 rookie Clemente or the Kaline, I would be re-submitting that card like mad in attempts to get the 10. And if more 10's appear, the value of the existing ones would typically go down. This is why as a collector, I don't see much reason to pay big money to buy 10's. I would be happy with just superb looking 8's that go significantly cheaper. However, as an investor, even with all that I said before in not understanding the mentality, I could still see buying 10s and considering that investment material. Because as others have said, there are always people with deep pockets who only want the best, and those people will still go for the 10's.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
<< <i>I won the color shifted Ozzie and the NNOF Thomas.
CONGRATS! Enjoy!
Did you see the written description of the card that the auction house had?
Read carefully: I guess they knew he was a HOFer even before he started playing in MLB:
One of only 2 perfect GEM MINT PSA 10's from the very condition conscious 1979 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball issue. The slick fielding shortstop played 15 of his 18 year career with the St. Louis Cardinals. The 15 time All Star won 13 consecutive Gold Gloves from 1980 through 1992. He was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1972.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Clearly for cards of a certain magnitude, you would not put them on Ebay...for true rarities private sale or a very prestigious auction are the only routes to go bc there is a limited audience for those pieces.
I also agree that in many cases a sweet 9 is just as appealing as a 10, visually very hard to see the difference...I would have bought a Clemente RC in a 9 if I ever had the chance at a nice one, but the only one I remember seeing for sale in the past 10 yrs had an iffy corner, so I had to make a decision...I typically wont replace 9s with 10s, for example I have a 54 Aaron 9 that actually belonged to Dmitri which he sold bc he was pissed it didnt get it a 10, it is a great looking card and every bit as nice to me as the 2 10s Ive seen. This was more a special situation of actually needing the card, not bumping up from a 9 to a 10. Though I admit on the Brock I have 2 9s and decided to buy the 10 and trade or sell the 9s to fill in other gaps in my collection.
It will likely be a long time before we see an auction like this again...would need to be Spence or Fogel selling off their collections or something like that...I eagerly await that day if it ever comes!
EOMINT
I've known Eric for a number of years, and I have to say he has one of the most amazing collections I've ever seen.
Amazing stuff, this sports cardboard.
I suppose much of what I feel regarding this auction of key PSA 10s falls under the rubric of "BUY THE CARD, NOT THE HOLDER," but I'd like to expand on it anyway.
Today as an exercise I showed several people two Rickey Henderson RC scans. Both scans were the same size and high rez.
The grades were covered; one was the SCP 10 and one a beautiful PSA 9.
Every single individual said they'd prefer to own the 9-- which is available for a few hundred dollars, as compared to $10K+ for the PSA 10.
This smacks to me of craziness.
Now let me say that a guy can do whatever he wants with his money. To each his own, live and let live, etc. God knows I've blown loot on things that in saner/hindsight moments strike me as utterly asinine. But I wanted the rock star hotel room for the after party or the car or the whatever, so it was done.
But when it comes to cards, I just cannot understand how the subjective/arbitrary "10" placed on the flip by "professional graders" can cause serious blindness-- in most cases to pretty smart/successful guys.
If I absolutely love a certain card and cannot find a 9 that strikes my eye as gem mint, I will go after the 10-- but it must be a worthy 10, a truly perfect card in every way.
The fact is, there are 9s of almost every card that could be 10s on a good day-- and they can be had for a fraction of the 10 cost.
In other words, I believe the best value lies in finding 10s that are masquerading as 9s, or "hiding out" in 9 holders.
I can envision graders hanging out in the PSA parking lot, sparking the occasional j, and sometimes making mistakes or just being human and subjective. To therefore plunk down such huge premiums for the often-overgraded 10 as opposed to the under-graded 9 is crazy to me. Again, when a 10 is a no-brainer perfect card, it's tempting-- but even then one can probably find a 9 that looks identical.
Is it thus all about "owning the best?" And if so, why let "the best" be defined by anything other than your own two eyes?
Now when it comes to investment purposes, I will not dispute that because so many go blind in the face of the "10" on the flip, it is often a good financial move to buy a 10 and then sell it for a profit down the line. But if we're discussing personal collections, I would take a beautiful PSA 9 of CARD X (that many might prefer "grade unseen" to a 10 of the same card) and the cash difference between that card and the 10 to spend on other gorgeous 9s.
This same logic can (and I believe should) be extrapolated to the comparison of any card in "X grade" vs "X-1 grade." I think-- almost always-- a given card can be found in "X-1 grade" that looks identical or superior to the card in "X-grade." It therefore baffles me to see such exorbitant premiums paid for PSA 10s WHEN those 10s are not absolutely flawless examples. This musing in no way applies to any specific card from the current SCP auction, but is rather a general observation.
I also think that the "PSA 10 rarity" is a rarity that is in many ways manufactured, or carefully maintained-- and this is not a negative thing, it's only natural. As one of the posters above stated so well, I would much rather own something that is rare in any state, as opposed to rare just because of the 10 put on the label.
For example, I'd rather own a hypothetical cello pack with CARD X centered on both front and back, than that same CARD X in PSA 10-- if there are more 10s than the cello and also many beautiful 9s out there. The cello is just so much rarer, in an absolute sense. That's one of the reasons why I got into star packs lately-- and also weaned myself off my my early collecting penchant for 10s, and began hunting down the 10-worthy 9s.
So I agree completely with what the EO has said about owning a perfect-looking Aaron 9 and not stepping up to the 10 for the grade's sake. Savvy collectors will never be impressed by an overgraded 10 but will always appreciate the value in a 9 that can hang with 10s all day.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
<< <i>Did anyone else notice that there were only 11 cards that failed to meet the minimum bid- and in that group were ALL SEVEN cards of his brother? >>
I noticed. Kinda sad.
Jeff
<< <i>Do we know who bought any of the other key cards- The Aaron, the Rose..? Anyone on other forums bragging about their pickups? >>
I would love to know who got the Rose,my favorite of the sale!
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
<< <i>There was a BVG 9 Hank Aaron RC about 8 years ago that I missed at about 7K. I believe it looks as eye appealing at the PSA 10 that sold. I wish I bought it. The Clemente though, that's a simply amazing card. >>
Exactly. I mean how much money is annually thrown at PSA 10s when there are identical cards lurking out there in PSA 9 holders? It's just silly. I'm not talking about truly perfect 10s here at all, I admit I do own some, but rather I'm talking about situations like the two Hendersons I mentioned, in which the 10 is clearly inferior to a great 9. One cost 11K and one $350. Or the Reggie Jackson RC that just sold for 100K+. I will admit I haven't held it in hand. But I can say for a fact that I have seen a PSA 9 that costs 100K less and has got to be of equal quality.
I just think back to when I was a kid bringing my allowance to the card store, and looking through the several examples of CARD X that I wanted, and going over them all with a close eye or in some cases a magnifying glass-- I went with what I knew was the best one. To throw that common sense evaluation of two cards out the window and tons of cash along with it just because some graders put a 10 on the lesser card is nuts.
EOMINT
Congrats EOMint!
Also Dwight Evans rookie from another rare high series. If the irrational and silly Baseball Writers had a clue and understood he was better than Rice, it would have been at least $3 000
As a side note, I happen to think the 1982 Topps PSA 10 Ripken at $500-$600 a pop is one of the more overpriced cards out there. Yeah, Ripken is an icon with a lot of collectors but 235/21,000 is a pretty big number that should get higher as it's not a card that's tough to find high grade. Same with the Traded version at 156/8185, and as more and more people break open their factory sets and send the card in it should keep increasing.
Dmitri's auction brought in $1,100 and $1,800 respectively which may be awfully tough to sustain
TheClockworkAngelCollection
I feel the same about the big RCs from the 1983 Topps Set; demand for them will always be there, to be sure, but there are definitely more PSA 10s (and 10-worthy PSA 9s) out there.
<< <i>Here's a short article from the Detroit News regarding the auction. Oddly enough, the article makes a vague claim that Dmitri had $5M into his collection, which means he actually lost money on the sale. I find that hard to believe... >>
I would guess that he had to buy a few RC cards that he thought might get the "10" before actually getting it. There is a picture of him in SMR looking at a bunch of raw cards so I would think that he has a nice lot of NM-MT+ rookies.